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switch
04-02-2016, 11:02 PM
as the title says what are the plat units that are pretty close to a black unit if not better. just rolled sasha. her skill looks pretty damn good

soranokira
04-02-2016, 11:30 PM
as the title says what are the plat units that are pretty close to a black unit if not better. just rolled sasha. her skill looks pretty damn good

Jerome, Gellius, Spica, Chydis/Saria, Elizabeth, Rachel/Anelia, Lilia, Thetis, Sabine, Priest warrior Serra, Nadia (if I don't put her here exk will kill me), Raven, Marius...
that's about all I guess?

switch
04-03-2016, 12:07 AM
well i have 3 of those on my main aha and 2 blacks :P gonna have to keep on re rolling till i get either 2 plats or a black

- - - Updated - - -

and will have spica soon as i get around to her aha i keep aw'ing my units instead aha

lolix
04-03-2016, 09:40 AM
I kinda agree and disagree with sora again. I mean , i guess he's talking about the dmm version of units, but those were buff-ed and altered quite a bit. Also there are units there that we don't have yet , so i'll keep it to what we have :

Spica is nowhere near black level. And that's coming from somewone that has all the archers in the game (with the exception of elizabeth >>> which is a pseudoblack i argee on this one). Hell , victoria has better dps then spica , but spica is better for other reasons , and nanaly still blows every other archer out of the water. Right now , in the archer department , Nanaly stands out as the black , and the rest are obvious plats , with elizabeth (technically she's not an archer) , being the closest in terms of raw damage , on unarmored targets.

Not sure if i'd clasify chydis either , but considering the black healer we have in our game , i guess chydis (hell , even camilla can outheal liana) can clasify as pseudoblacks for our version.

Tethis becomes a pseudoblack after awakening just vs a specific kind of situation (vs paralizying enemies) , otherwise clisa is still better


Gelius is the singple most powerfull tank in the game , and should be considered a black for all intends and purposes.

Jerome/Marius ? Well , they are the best of their clasds.....but we kinda lack a black of their class to compare in our version. Well , i guess they could be considered so if we wanted because of that


That being said , i'd add uzume to the list

Kirito Rick
04-03-2016, 09:41 AM
Jerome, Gellius, Spica, Chydis/Saria, Elizabeth, Rachel/Anelia, Lilia, Thetis, Sabine, Priest warrior Serra, Nadia (if I don't put her here exk will kill me), Raven, Marius...
that's about all I guess?

Why Thetis..i know she is a princess bt still not as par as sybillia...not even a little close...

Also i read somewhere that Beatrice is better than Rachel...(hard for me to belive) conformation plz..
Also why is Camillia, Echidna or Solano not in the list...no Yurina either..

lolix
04-03-2016, 09:43 AM
tethis > the valk , not themis.

Edit : i agree with solano. she's a monster

Kirito Rick
04-03-2016, 09:50 AM
Oh sorry..my bad..

soranokira
04-03-2016, 10:28 AM
yes, I am basing my judgment from DMM data, and many of them are rather subjective and borderline failing to meet the mark. units like thetis only barely make it due to relatively high stats, immunity to status and not needing to sacrifice her def. (also yes, she loses to clissa. but you see, we're saying which plats either almost match up to blacks or overtake completely here. I'd say it's fair to put thetis up near the almost-match-up part)
spica obviously doesnt match up to nanaly's x5 shot in 5s (or 4shots in 1s), but disregarding skill timers, spica has good attack speed, with the option of further boosting her attack/range or changing it to magical entirely. Victoria's slower attack speed just can't match up in this regard.

Uzume is rejected in my list because matsuri is outright better in virtually every way (except the lack of 5% attack to ranged units) from what I can tell. (and I mean lol I almost can't do shit with Uzume aside from planting her somewhere for atk buff and attack boost skill. Matsuri has ranged skill attack. just...nope.)

chydis has the raw healing power to match blacks, while saria is actually better than her thanks to increased healing speed + multiple heals. I was tempted to throw in Marle as well but...her AW skill isn't fantastic, so I can't say shit yet until we get a black feng shui to compare.

Elizabeth is...just brutal.

Anelia is another one...just brutal. Rachel excels in another manner: she has Aisha range, that is all.

Lilia has the brutal duelist power that just about none other can match. sherry has nice ranged multi-target damage, but I feel Olivie can do it better in terms of raw dps. but Lilia can match up to Olivie solely due to her anti-magic enemy capabilities. (if olivie had like 50% more hp, I'd throw lilia out of this list as well)

Sabine...true damage vs Ingrid's MR reduction. barely enough but I'd say she passes in that.

Raven has no black to compare to, but she's outright broken anyway so she deserves to make it here. Same goes for Nadia. ask exk for details regarding nadia.
Marius has both high attack and toggle ability, so I'll just throw him there as a pretty good bishop. He doesn't have Eterna's double cast, but I'd say he suffices.
Serra's another one with no black to challenge, but I saw her skill so...I'd say she does her job pretty damn well. for an event unit nonetheless.

edit: solano is also out of my list due to Farune pretty much doing what she can. and more. but...well, I have no idea really. at this point I havent judged for myself the difference between the 2 so yeah...
I find nothing fantastic about Camilla which seems like a powered up Iris. if she makes it under comparable to black I might as well throw every plat healer in. Chydis simply has the raw healing power outside of skill, but she kinda barely makes it as well. Saria still takes top spot.
Echidna is...nothing solid can be concluded of the dragon shaman class as it is, honestly.
Beatrice can NEVER beat rachel. NEVER. period. after considering Rachel's skill AW, it's just insane to put the 2 together.

Eab1990
04-05-2016, 12:06 PM
I'd put Solano on the list, tbh, if only because Farune is so underperforming otherwise. But yeah, it's more of a testament that summoners are already good as a mincost event plat, rather than the plat itself being as good as a black.

And while we're including other event units, Shiho and Rika excel at their jobs, even if they don't have black-tier equivalents (on our end, anyway).

CharlesRJC
04-05-2016, 04:18 PM
I'd add Sherry and Shizuka to the list.

exk
04-05-2016, 09:15 PM
Nadia?

http://i.imgur.com/ocgDeHP.gif

She is a boss. She is far better than most Black units due to a combination of things she can do, despite her very high cost. Nadia being a boss is the best way to describe her, since she is going to be the one carrying your team because she's pulling a lot of weight.

Nadia with her Skill AW has:
Very high raw stats
A permanently activated skill unless she becomes paralyzed
Extremely high stats after skill activation (1.5x ATK/DEF)
Attacks all grounded enemies within her range


Nadia does so many things despite her cost. Cost is not even an issue at all and people will complain about her cost just because they are dumb as hell. She should not be compared to a Bandit at all. She is far better than a Bandit in terms of performance. For 40 cost, you get a unit that deals a lot of damage and has a large amount of defense on top of it. There are only a select few enemies that she can not kill fast, which are variations of the high-tier golems (Maid, Axe Maid, Iron, and Mithril) and some bosses. She can tank all of them as well with proper support because of her high HP and DEF. Everything else? She'll chew through them because she'll be rocking 2k+ attack. Enemies still getting through? Place a blocker behind her just because she'll tear them apart for trying to get away.

Yeah, her cost is high and there is some time before her skill activates, but that is a minor thing in exchange for power. I will use any means possible to deploy her sooner. If her cost was 60, I would even deploy 3 Soldiers just to use her because she is worth that cost.

http://i.imgur.com/Fa9ACI6l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sva3w5pl.jpg

Other Platinum units can only look in shame. Even Black units like Deine can only look in shame at the sheer power of Nadia. This post of mine barely touches upon the ridiculousness of Nadia. There has been ongoing discussion in other places talking about how overpowered she is. Bandits, Samurais, and Angels look tame by comparison.

lolix
04-05-2016, 10:25 PM
gellius looks at your nadia and deosn't give a flying fuck about her. He's the only tank in the game that can facetank high tier bosses. If there is 1 unit that can be considered by far the best in his role in the game , it's gellius and its not even close

exk
04-05-2016, 10:33 PM
?

What is your point? I didn't say she is the best tank ever.

I also have a max level Jelius and I know what he does.
http://i.imgur.com/Yq4K74fl.png

lolix
04-05-2016, 11:31 PM
unless i'm missing your point , we were talking about which unit simply stands out of an entire army , regardless of role. Gelius is clearly the best tank in the game , and stomps all the competition out of the water. actually if i were 2 pick 2 units from your team , those would be gellius and olivie , long before nadia. Not that nadia is bad tho , but she's not THAT great. 2 costly to be eficiently deployed in any sort of rush map for ex


I mean , maybe i missunderstood , but we were talking about which plat unit is the best. I'd say gellis is the better one

switch
04-06-2016, 12:09 AM
forgetting about cost.. she looks pretty badass. if you can deploy her in a choke point looks like a total meat grinder.. throw gellius and healer behind and afk

soranokira
04-06-2016, 08:12 AM
unless i'm missing your point , we were talking about which unit simply stands out of an entire army , regardless of role. Gelius is clearly the best tank in the game , and stomps all the competition out of the water. actually if i were 2 pick 2 units from your team , those would be gellius and olivie , long before nadia. Not that nadia is bad tho , but she's not THAT great. 2 costly to be eficiently deployed in any sort of rush map for ex


I mean , maybe i missunderstood , but we were talking about which plat unit is the best. I'd say gellis is the better one

this topic is actually discussing which plats are near black-level. both Gellius and Nadia has enough stats/power to be listed here. also note that exk has only mentioned nadia as a duelist that can tank anything except the super high end ones, although she can also tank most of them with a bit of support. if you notice in exk's screenshot, nadia has 3.5k hp with 2.6k def, which effectively allows her to tank up to 6k damage. there are not many things where you need gellius instead of nadia to tank. (so yes, gellius is not the only tank that can facetank high-tier bosses)

also, nadia can dps, while gellius can't.

kayfabe
04-06-2016, 01:14 PM
The bottom line is that while Nadia is indeed expensive she also consolidates an awful lot of power into one spot.

Anyway, I do think there comes a point where fixating on roles can become rather counterproductive--it's important to have your all your bases covered, certainly, but that doesn't mean units have to be all defense or all offense. Gellius is great against uber units but otherwise a premium tank really only has value over a merely adequate tank if the difference in defenses allows you to get away with less healers. Otherwise you may as well throw in a blocker that can get the job done while providing more oomph.

lolix
04-06-2016, 03:01 PM
the point he was making was that no plat unit come close in sheer power , to which i responded that gelius is (stat wise) the best plat in the game. He is the best tank , with great block , MR and defense , while also costing way less. Deploying nadia will not be cost effective on a majority of maps

Tenhou
04-06-2016, 03:21 PM
He is mainly talking about the sheer damage coupled with her great tankiness though. Or did you miss the part where he said she was better than bandits, and the only HA he actually used in comparison was Deine, a high damage HA?

Buster Wolf
04-06-2016, 03:30 PM
Gellius' tanking ability is different from the power output of Nadia (which is what he was getting at) if you want to go by stats at max level and affection

Gellius
HP: 4175
Atk: 306
Def: 611
MR: 10

Adding Gellius' Skill AW (for 30 seconds)
Def: 1833
MR: 30

Nadia
HP: 3572
Atk: 1031
Def: 614
MR: 0

Adding Nadias Skill AW (which keeps going till she gets paralyzed)
Atk: 1546
Def: 921

Despite the fact that she can only block 1 target she clearly outclasses Gellius stat wise, of course she's not meant to be put on every map and has her areas where she shines.

lolix
04-06-2016, 05:55 PM
and conveniantly left out gelius skill awakening. Interesting. @ Buster wolf


@ Tenhou : he said "other plats units can only look in shame" I was assuming he was talking about all plats. If he was talking purely duelists , sure , but the way he phrased it was somewhat confusing. If he wasn't talking duelists , then no. I disagree that nadia is the best platinum in the game.

Tenhou
04-06-2016, 06:03 PM
Her stats make a lot of units pale in comparison. Sure, Gellius has great defense, but Nadia has defensive stats AND offensive stats. I know you love your argument of "rather have a tank and then place out mages." But think about this - with Nadia out you have one great damage dealer and a tank out at the same time. Sure, she costs more, but she's like one hell of a monster that effectively manages two roles at once.

Gellius on the other hand is just that - a tank. He is only useful for blocking. Nadia can smash things to pieces as they come towards her. Who needs to deploy that archer or mage to go with Gellius? Just put down Nadia and be done with it.

There's also many maps where ranged slots are rather limited. The current subjugation event on DMM only has 3 ranged slots. Nadia was born for that map...

Buster Wolf
04-06-2016, 07:12 PM
and conveniantly left out gelius skill awakening. Interesting. @ Buster wolfAdded

Still Nadia is better due to being able to attack all grounded units that pass her so she doesn't need ranged damage support like Gellius does due to his piss poor attack stat.

switch
04-06-2016, 08:20 PM
what have i started ahaha

ZeroZet
04-06-2016, 09:18 PM
Who needs to deploy that archer or mage to go with Gellius? Just put down Nadia and be done with it.Somebody who is faced with more than one beefy rusher at the same time? Nadia, while powerful, is still a 1-blocker. Gellius, on the other hand stops 4 (5) on their tracks.
And if you say "Just put somebody behind Nadia", then how it is different from deploying Gellius with mage support?

exk
04-06-2016, 09:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wufs5ZJ1IE

CornOnSakob
04-06-2016, 10:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wufs5ZJ1IE

Lol, I recognize like none of those units :P

lolix
04-06-2016, 11:49 PM
nadia blocks 1 person. Gellius has 30 MR and blocks 5.


Are we also forgetting the horrible cost that nadia has ? You people act like getting a 40 cost duelist on the field is easy. It's not. Most maps won't allow it. Also , what happens when you have beefy enemies rushing ? You have to place another blocker behind nadia , which means at least another heavy (or an awakened katie i guess) , or a angel/samurai/etc. That's another 15-20 up used because of her block.


You just look at the offense and think she outstats gelis because she has more damage....ignoring the fact that block/cost are also important stats , and nadia does very poorly in that regard

Karsuman
04-07-2016, 03:02 AM
You really have no idea what you're talking about, lolix.

Gellius is for tanking. He happens to be very good at it, and no one here has been discounting his abilities. But he does no DPS. Tanking is all he does.

Nadia is a high-end duelist. She's for trashing especially dangerous enemies and also happens to be good for shredding through waves due to her large AoE. She does a truck load of DPS and can tank very large hits herself. Because dragon riders all have fantastic core stats, MR aside, and have stronger passives and skills than average, they come at a premium to deploy.

These are two different functionalities and are compatible together. Nadia shredding mobs with a blocker like Gellius behind her will stop any mob combination that isn't full of high-end golems. If you don't understand why Nadia is great after watching exk's demo there's really not much hope for you, speaking so decisively about a unit/unit class you've never used.

Other than that, why are you being so damn defensive about something as inane as being 'best plat unit'? Gellius is a great plat, exceptional even, and not many people will disagree. That does not make Nadia, or any other plat unit, 'not great'.


Gellius, on the other hand stops 4 (5) on their tracks.
And if you say "Just put somebody behind Nadia", then how it is different from deploying Gellius with mage support?

Unless the mobs have absolutely insane defense(like golem-tier), Nadia's area damage will out-dps three-four mage units at once. Her ASPD is nearly x3 as fast and AWS puts her above 2k damage. It's just better. 40 cost and one space is definitely better than 100ish cost and three spots.



My picks for high-tier plat units, in no particular order, for the DMM version. This is not to say other plat units aren't good, but these ones are most notable imo for sheer power reasons:

Nadia (huge stats, AWS makes her an ideal sweeper in higher difficulty stages, combos amazingly with 3+ block units)
Gellius (best defensive HA)
Jerome (automatic AWS allows lazy play and is a great deploy and forget unit; passive effectively cr's him by 2)
Rachel (AWS gives her over 400 range, fast attack speed and 1400+ attack; extremely strong after buffs)
Anelia (one of the earliest multi-target units, now deals magic damage, and has also benefited from the ASPD buffs as Rachel)
Saria (rapid healing AoE AWS is ridiculous)
Elizabeth (DPS is comparable to Nanaly)
Sherry (hits 5 targets at once at 250 range for large damage; very strong, differentiates herself from the blacks unlike other princesses)
Marle (her skill is very strong, too; not quite as good as Saria)
Lyla (20s low cooldown AoE that provides over 3k attack)
Uzume (passive and skill are both really strong)
Flamel (her buffs have made her surpass Serra for best warrior priest; very reliable unit in a class that is kind of broken)
Sabine (long-term ranged true damage; 280 range)
Patra (large attack multiplier with burst all heal on a low cooldown; best plat bishop)
Mole (large attack multiplier on a mage; best plat mage presently)
Thetis (cc immunity and powerful automatic AWS with low downtime)

honorable mentions: Marnie, Waltz (not generically useful like most of above, but excellent in the right teams...)

Unregistered
04-07-2016, 03:10 AM
nadia blocks 1 person. Gellius has 30 MR and blocks 5.


Are we also forgetting the horrible cost that nadia has ? You people act like getting a 40 cost duelist on the field is easy. It's not. Most maps won't allow it. Also , what happens when you have beefy enemies rushing ? You have to place another blocker behind nadia , which means at least another heavy (or an awakened katie i guess) , or a angel/samurai/etc. That's another 15-20 up used because of her block.


You just look at the offense and think she outstats gelis because she has more damage....ignoring the fact that block/cost are also important stats , and nadia does very poorly in that regard

I agree my team full of blacks with jerome is making me lose every map. Can you teach me your ways?

lolix
04-07-2016, 03:40 AM
I agree my team full of blacks with jerome is making me lose every map. Can you teach me your ways?

learn how to use your team ? I've had maps were i passed them easily with silvers and had a harder time to do so with higher rarity picks , simply because of costs. That being said , you're confusing gelius with jerome i think. Not that jerome is a bad unit btw...

For example, gelius IS the best tank in the game , and seriously outstat deine in the tank department. Not all blacks are the best at what they do


Edit : @karsuman , nobody is saying that nadia isn't a great unit. I've never denied that. I just said that gelis is the better plat. The fact is that nadia is not the best best duelist in the game for most situations. She's not the cheapest one either. Gelius is the best at what he does by comparison.

switch
04-07-2016, 10:35 AM
not sure where to put this aha .. i just got spica. after i feed all my laurens and hopefully get atleast 4/5 skill should i use her instead of my bashira? as i already use minerva as my main range. or should i just run 3 ranged and cut a mage out or duelist unless the map requires it

Tenhou
04-07-2016, 10:44 AM
Run whichever you need, really. Spica is better for long term damage and her awakening passive is a lot better than Bashira's. Bashira is better for burst.

switch
04-07-2016, 12:10 PM
i probs dont need burst as when i use minerva skill she attacks fast and does 1300 with chance to insta kill

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put in 50 bucks cause had a good work week, pull gellius, camilla and shizuka.. gg boys, not even mad that havent gotten aisha. problem now is lvling gellius and camilla lol

kayfabe
04-07-2016, 01:53 PM
And if you say "Just put somebody behind Nadia", then how it is different from deploying Gellius with mage support?

Plopping down Katie then dropping Nadia in front of her once things start to get hairy is quite a bit cheaper than Gellius plus a mage even before you factor in Reinforcements. It also puts out waaaaay more damage. Garania's been a helpful presence in my army but she should feel kinda embarrassed about being so close to Nadia in cost.


learn how to use your team

They were being sarcastic.

Anyway, I think you're missing the forest due to the trees again. Nadia isn't an anti-rush duelist but she's easily the top anti-swarm duelist. She's so good she can even survive being a contradiction in terms. :p

Larcx
04-08-2016, 01:58 AM
So from what I understand Nadia is OP
Then , how about the other two Dragon Rider?
Are the two other overshadowed by Nadia?
If one got other Platinum Dragon Rider
Is it worth to Lv them / one should wait for RNG-Mercy for Nadia?

Thank You~

YoxalLoyal
04-08-2016, 07:52 AM
Erenia is pretty useful for most situations. I use her for mob clearing. Have a tank behind her and once her skill activates, she clears nearly all of the ones blocked by her and the tanker. Of course I can't speak for the more difficult ones like bosses, though I did pit her against that vampire lord on the previous event and she did pretty well against him with two healers supporting her. Also heard something about her being effective against a dracolich, but I haven't faced one yet, so I wouldn't know. XD

Idk about the other two dragon riders.

White935
04-08-2016, 08:04 AM
So from what I understand Nadia is OP
Then , how about the other two Dragon Rider?
Are the two other overshadowed by Nadia?
If one got other Platinum Dragon Rider
Is it worth to Lv them / one should wait for RNG-Mercy for Nadia?

Thank You~

RNG mercy? such a thing even exist?
The RNG gods are but devilish evil, which will forever make you cry, and occasionally give you a treat.. so that thy shall return to the RNG torture.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 08:19 AM
what have i started ahaha

lolix being wrong about a lot of things is par for the course.

lolix
04-08-2016, 08:52 AM
eab trying to apear smart is also part of it

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 08:54 AM
I don't need to "apear" smart when you do a good enough job of making yourself look like a fool without my interference.

lolix
04-08-2016, 09:21 AM
ok. feel free to corect me :


We were arguing about which plat is better.


Gellius is THE top tank in the game. Best stats , best block , ability to face tank the ultimate bosses.

Nadia is a a top tier duelist (a very powerfull 1 at that) , but she is not the best. She is situational , and she can get situationally outclassed by others. Also her cost to deploy is insane , while gellius is not a situational tank. You need a tank ? you deploy him. Is he needed 100% of the times ? No , but he can be used most of the times.

I mean take leanne which is the cheapest HA : she costs 21 UP to deploy. An awakened gelius costs 26.

Now consider the cheapest duelist , and then consider nadia.



The point i'm trying to make is that nadia while very very very powerfull , is also situational. Gelis is not. Combined with the fact that there are no better options then him , in any situation that requires a heavy (as oposed to nadia that can be replaced by other duelists depending on the situation) means that he is also much more useful (well to be honest , heavies are generally more important then duelists , so there is that)


Now , in what way is nadia the better plat unit ?

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 09:35 AM
Being anti-situational does not mean efficient. If Gellius fits everywhere but does not excel at anything except tanking, that isn't what I'd call "best plat unit". It'd be a debate to even say "most useful plat" either. Even if he's the best tank, his level of tanking is only really necessary for high-end bosses. If you can replace his job with Bernice half the time, that doesn't make him essential either.

If you can accomplish a job faster and with less risk by DPS'ing the fuck out of something instead of tanking and worrying about DPS/healing/leaks/etc., why wouldn't you? That is the argument for Nadia. What Nadia does is handle multiple roles (duelist/AoE), and she does that extremely well. She doesn't NEED to block more than one unit if she can AoE kill everything. She doesn't NEED to tank if she's not fighting anything short of a golem (and even then, Nadia can tank some of the lower-end golems). She only truly loses in cost, and neither unit is anti-rush anyway.

In the end, it boils down to what you value more in a unit. A unit that does extremely well at one job, or a unit that does sufficiently well at multiple jobs. You could make a case for other pure vs. hybrid classes, but in this case, Gellius does not have much else going for him besides tanking and cost, neither of which gives him a substantial lead over Nadia if he needs outside help anyway.

soranokira
04-08-2016, 10:02 AM
So from what I understand Nadia is OP
Then , how about the other two Dragon Rider?
Are the two other overshadowed by Nadia?
If one got other Platinum Dragon Rider
Is it worth to Lv them / one should wait for RNG-Mercy for Nadia?

Thank You~

the issue is that most dragon riders aside from nadia fulfill a rather different role, since their skill allows them to do magic ranged dmg unlike Nadia's anti-swarm, so it's somewhat hard to compare. exk had a video of him using Lucile as a secondary tank against a 4k atk golem.

and at this point I think it's rather pointless to carry on the argument. just let lolix see for himself when nutaku aigis finally gets nadia WITH SAW.
let's take a guess, 2020? think we can get it by then?

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 10:03 AM
According to FKG devs, Aigis is in the process of being transferred to Nutaku (as in re-negotiating their contract to give them more control), so we may see more frequent events/content updates from here on out. Hopefully.

soranokira
04-08-2016, 10:11 AM
According to FKG devs, Aigis is in the process of being transferred to Nutaku (as in re-negotiating their contract to give them more control), so we may see more frequent events/content updates from here on out. Hopefully.

yeah, hopefully. but honestly until things actually start turning for the better, I'll assume things are going to remain this bad.
I mean, seriously, it's been more than a year for Aigis.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 10:13 AM
Eh, baby steps.

If we get the missing units/Yurina, trading post update, revivals, and no more fucking breaks, it'll be a huge start.

lolix
04-08-2016, 11:25 AM
well the problem with her dps is again , that it's situational as well. She needs another blocker besides her to stall the enemies. Combine that with her initial high cost and we have the issues of taking too long to have a good strategy for most maps. That doesn't mean that nadia isn't a very very powefull unit. She is downright broken in the right conditions , but i wouldn't call her the best either.


I guess in the end it falls down to prefferences , but i personaly don't like units that cost that much to deploy. With her cost i could deploy both gelius and solano for example

Tenhou
04-08-2016, 11:37 AM
I don't exactly see the problem with her cost. Most of the time you will deploy a soldier and anticipate more heavy forces down the line when you have set up a decent team. If you need to quickly deal with enemies you'd deploy archers regardless. Heavy Armours cost a decent amount overall too so waiting some extra time to deploy Nadia instead is fully plausible.

And as others have stated in many cases she won't need a blocker since she will outright murder anything that gets into her range. To give you a similar example - would you be deploying gellius because you are worried Spica will let those purple goblins that she 1-2 shots through? You'd most likely just place her and giggle at the goblins getting slaughtered. Nadia works the same way but for tougher enemies.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 11:45 AM
Yeah, the cost gap shouldn't be an issue when both of their costs are expensive as it is. If you need to intercept something and only have enough UP for a heavy, 99% of the time, you're better off using a soldier (or a valkyrie on DMM, I guess) and an archer instead.

Deploying Gellius and ONLY Gellius for a rush is just setting yourself up for trouble. Gellius/Solano also doesn't outweigh Nadia because of the extra 10 seconds of setup. Unless you put Solano first, in which case, you're still not solving the main problem of actually getting a blocker on the map and you may as well just use a soldier then.

Ramazan
04-08-2016, 11:51 AM
Dont hit me if i want breaks more :c cuz most of my units needs leveling (well plat ones at least) And got so much free time to read all the stuff here, you guys speak the same thing at least 5-6 times over and over, we dont even have nadia, could you please compare nutaku only units despite we'll getting nadia anyway? And in my opinion, if given the choice i'd choose gellius for ultimate end-game bosses cuz i've seen this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pClysCqI8Eg). Even gellius alone cant do much things, he needed dancer buff and he could do the map without that dragon rider, would took longer but its 3* in the end anyway and all the endgame content i've seen there was always a gellius not a dragon rider.

Unregistered
04-08-2016, 12:50 PM
anyway yeah a perfect (minus fucking unit cost) elizabeth is basically free loot on acquired target

stuff just basically hands her the loot and dies

I swear to god - it occasionally gives you the loot before the mob is even dead

it's literally vayne with devourer and an edgeforce executioner bloodthirster and zephyr

she wont die, nothing will live - loot always lol

- - - Updated - - -

and yes it's me what are you fucking retarded?

wait don't answer that xD

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i vote that they need a space map

and when they do treasure island the quest for black units -

the token space map is a black bounty hunter named Boobies Fatt or something and it's girl Boba

slyyr
04-08-2016, 01:00 PM
we dont even have nadia, could you please compare nutaku only units despite we'll getting nadia anyway?

Good point. Comparing to stuff we don't have (and no idea when we'll ever have) is silly.

On another note maybe its time the forum here had a sub-forum for DMM Aigis talk? If a new player stepped into the wrong conversation here it could get awfully confusing. Plus we could also have stickies that pertain to DMM with stuff like logging in from international locations.

Karsuman
04-08-2016, 01:12 PM
She needs another blocker besides her to stall the enemies.

Nadia splash + unit that blocks is far cheaper than three + mages and Gellius and will get similar results. Nadia will have over 2k attack with AWS and attacks at a speed less than 40 frames versus mage's 98.

summed up: she will frequently out-dps THREE mages. that's just ridiculous.


Dont hit me if i want breaks more :c cuz most of my units needs leveling (well plat ones at least) And got so much free time to read all the stuff here, you guys speak the same thing at least 5-6 times over and over, we dont even have nadia, could you please compare nutaku only units despite we'll getting nadia anyway? And in my opinion, if given the choice i'd choose gellius for ultimate end-game bosses cuz i've seen this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pClysCqI8Eg). Even gellius alone cant do much things, he needed dancer buff and he could do the map without that dragon rider, would took longer but its 3* in the end anyway and all the endgame content i've seen there was always a gellius not a dragon rider.

#1 - lol, breaks. no one on Nutaku except you wants to hear about aigis breaks.

#2 - there's no rule that requires us to talk about only Nutaku units, so we will likely continue talking about DMM. the list I posted earlier also includes a number of units that have already appeared on Nutaku.

#3 - gellius doesn't need a dancer to do what he does...?

#4 - nadia(and even dragon riders as a class) are much newer than gellius and will as such appear in far fewer videos.


anyway yeah a perfect (minus fucking unit cost) elizabeth is basically free loot on acquired target

stuff just basically hands her the loot and dies

I swear to god - it occasionally gives you the loot before the mob is even dead

it's literally vayne with devourer and an edgeforce executioner bloodthirster and zephyr

she wont die, nothing will live - loot always lol

- - - Updated - - -

and yes it's me what are you fucking retarded?

wait don't answer that xD

you high, bro?


Good point. Comparing to stuff we don't have (and no idea when we'll ever have) is silly.

Nutaku players should probably be interested in the opinions of DMM players on units because it gives a strong indication of what is best to invest in. Presently the most effecting thing on a unit's worth is their awakening skill, which haven't appeared on Nutaku yet.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 01:24 PM
you high, bro?

It looks like a FarK post.

lolix
04-08-2016, 01:33 PM
first of all , you are exagerating. At best she replaces 2 mages. For example awakened odette does around 700 without prince buff.It should go around 850-900 with it , without any other team multipliers (like uzume/aria/etc). Considering the one in the image was doing 2250 at max lvl with probably the best prince title possible , that means she can replace 2 odettes. That is insane dps i agree , but then again , u don't need to use mages. You could easily place a solano , which also has great dps and true damage. The more resistance the enemies have , the better solano becomes.

Meanwhile gellius doesn't care what resistance his enemies have....nor what they attack him with seeing as he gains a bunch of mr alongside his huge hp pool and great defense.


Bottom line : gellius is good vs all forms of attackers. Nadia's offense is again situational , depending on the enemies resistances.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 01:38 PM
Gellius + Solano isn't a point in Gellius' favor vs. Nadia. If anything, it's a point in Solano's favor vs. Nadia.

It amazes me how dense you continue to be.

exk
04-08-2016, 01:40 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm28593209

Boy that was hard to deploy Nadia.

http://i.imgur.com/BODjRCj.gif

Karsuman
04-08-2016, 01:52 PM
Solano, while a useful unit, is not popular on DMM at the moment for practicality reasons. Specifically, her downtime. Even the black summoner suffers.

As for the DPS comparison, you completely ignored attack speed. In the amount of time it takes for a mage to attack, Nadia will have hit almost three times. If three mages are hitting for 1k each and Nadia is hitting for 2k each, you can see how the math turns out. This is of course different if you have a caster with an attack buff(Patra/Mole) but even then it's a case of limited uptime versus permanent uptime. This is also not accounting for mage range, the superb defensive stats of Nadia and space considerations(it's easier to have space for one unit versus three) but I digress.

Also, you continue to ignore the fact that someone else needs to do Gellius's DPS for him, since he contributes jack squat. As much of a wall as he is, he is very much a non-entity by himself - he needs someone to tank for. If left unattended, even purple goblins will escape. By comparison, it doesn't matter how many purple/red/black goblins there are, Nadia will stop every single one every time once active.


Nadia's offense is again situational , depending on the enemies resistances.

The only thing she can't penetrate is high-tier golems. Mages happen to suck against those too. I guess Solano doesn't, but Rikka is better.



edit: ...lol exk.

lolix
04-08-2016, 01:53 PM
First of all that's a special case. I can use examples like this to make most niche units seem godlike. I said from the start that nadia , under the right conditions is broken. That being said , have you tried using his skill to increase the block ? Or place an archer instead of a healer ?




Eab it amazed me how dense can YOU be. I just pointed out that gellius is universaly viable vs any type of offense , while leaving enough UP to deploy an universally avaible event unit that does true damage. Meanwhile nadia's offense capabilities are dependant on enemy defenses. Is that really THAT hard to get ?

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 01:58 PM
Yeah, I'm the dense one when 4+ other people continue to point out how you're wrong.

I'm well aware how both Gellius and Solano work. I have both and religiously use my maxed Solano when I need to worry about cost more than constant AoE DPS (in which case, I use Garania). I don't use Gellius because nothing on our server calls for his level of tanking that I can't substitute with Bernice, Lilia, or Karma if needed.

The fact that you think Gellius, a unit that NEEDS ranged support to accomplish anything, is better than a hybrid duelist/ground AoE anti-swarm unit, speaks volumes about your logic.

Unregistered
04-08-2016, 02:03 PM
First of all that's a special case. I can use examples like this to make most niche units seem godlike. I said from the start that nadia , under the right conditions is broken. That being said , have you tried using his skill to increase the block ? Or place an archer instead of a healer ?




Eab it amazed me how dense can YOU be. I just pointed out that gellius is universaly viable vs any type of offense , while leaving enough UP to deploy an universally avaible event unit that does true damage. Meanwhile nadia's offense capabilities are dependant on enemy defenses. Is that really THAT hard to get ?


Its amazing to me you that I realize why play the game how I want. i should just use my 11 aisha to cheese every map :^).

exk
04-08-2016, 02:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/YXdc7kq.gif

lolix
04-08-2016, 02:12 PM
so.....what stops you from using a better archer ?



@unregistred : nothing. You can play however u want. We were just debating on what unit is betetr then other. Most people preffer offense/versatility which is a valid advantage some units have.


I preffer strong frontline and cheap costs. The fact stands that both units are top tier


eab let's not act like nadia doesn't need tanking (for blocking ) support , and up bateries. Also she will probably need more healing assistance while tanking bosses.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 02:19 PM
Stop it, exk, you're killing me. Oh wait, that's just Gellius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdX1Rwbipco


so.....what stops you from using a better archer ?



@unregistred : nothing. You can play however u want. We were just debating on what unit is betetr then other. Most people preffer offense/versatility which is a valid advantage some units have.


I preffer strong frontline and cheap costs. The fact stands that both units are top tier


eab let's not act like nadia doesn't need tanking support , and up bateries. Also she will probably need more healing assistance while tanking bosses.

What stops him from using a cheaper HA? You're the one that wants to argue cost even though it boils down to them more or less coming out the same.

Why does Nadia need *more* ranged support? It was established 50 posts ago that Nadia makes up the minimal difference in HP and skill-less defense by her sheer DPS. Having a single block obviously benefits her in this case. Being able to tank one hit from a golem still puts this in her favor. Yes, she loses a battle of attrition, but that doesn't mean she needs more ranged support ASAP, especially if she can kill her enemies before it reaches that point.

lolix
04-08-2016, 02:32 PM
i agree on your last point , but u made it sound like nadia doesn't require support. She requires support just as much as a gelius. It's a team , and no unit can do everything , so yes they will need help. Nadia will require UP bateries , while gelius will require dps assistance. Actually she might even need a blocker behind her to make use of her dps.


Exk , as i said each unit can be made to look good in the right situation. Nadia is an anti swarm. Gelius is a heavy tank.Let's make a vdieo of nadia doing the golem map and compare how well she does with gelius , and see which 1 requires more help then the other

Tenhou
04-08-2016, 02:35 PM
With the kind of dps she pulls out i'd argue most things in existence will be deathinated before they manage to run past her. Don't forget she has a much faster attack speed than mages while dealing a lot more damage per hit as well.

That said, Gellius will need an UP battery too, most units tend to do, it IS the first thing you place after all. But depending on the map you will either need to place a lot of units fast or have a decent amount of time before the next big wave comes in. That is basically the difference between deploying Nadia and something else.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 02:38 PM
Nobody has argued anything against Gellius being an anti-golem tank.

But I shouldn't need to explain how saying "Gellius + Solano is better than Nadia, therefore Gellius is better than Nadia" is an incredibly flimsy argument. You might as well say "Leanne + Nanaly is better than both, therefore Leanne is better than both".

exk
04-08-2016, 02:48 PM
Something like this?

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm28457441

lolix
04-08-2016, 02:49 PM
the point wasn't that gelius +solano is better.The point was that with the cost of deploying a nadia i could deploy gelis with a solano....or a nanaly or even an aisha for gods sake. Why don't people look at a unit's cost as another stat ?

Unregistered
04-08-2016, 02:52 PM
the point wasn't that gelius + leanne is better.The point was that with the cost of deploying a nadia i could deploy gelis with a solano....or a nanaly or even an aisha for gods sake. Why don't people look at a unit's cost as another stat ?

Its the anon that told you my black team cost me alot of maps.

http://puu.sh/oaff2/c3b584cf70.jpg

Can you help me? I can put them all down in first half of the map but then I still cant beat this map help.

lolix
04-08-2016, 02:56 PM
so...i don't see the map , your units or the enemy stats ....and what exactly is your issue on said map ? You get swarmed ? Can't tank enemies ? Can't dps ? What exactly is the issue ?

Tenhou
04-08-2016, 03:10 PM
I know sarcasm doesn't translate well over the net, but he's obviously being about as sarcastic as one can be, lolix...

lolix
04-08-2016, 03:15 PM
oh i got it. It's just that i don't understand what he's trying to prove. We were comparing 2 plat units , and he's butting in for.....what exactly ? Also what does said map has to do with our conversation ?

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 04:58 PM
the point wasn't that gelius +solano is better.The point was that with the cost of deploying a nadia i could deploy gelis with a solano....or a nanaly or even an aisha for gods sake. Why don't people look at a unit's cost as another stat ?

Because Solano has setup and downtime, Nanaly has downtime, and using Aisha in any argument is the worst reasoning ever. But for the sake of logic, we'll stick with Solano.

If you set Solano down first, you still have no blocker until you have enough for Gellius. 15 + 26 is 41. 1 point later than just putting Nadia down.

If you set down Gellius first, you have to wait ten more seconds for Solano to actually be ready to attack. 26 + 15 + 10 is 51. So that's 11 extra seconds of waiting for the DPS to start coming in, which probably won't mean much for Gellius, but then you probably need a healer sooner or later, so that's another 15+ seconds on top of that, then an archer or something else to pick up the slack for when Solano's skill ends. Instead of, again, just putting down Nadia.

lolix
04-08-2016, 05:29 PM
its not like u have no block and no dps either untill u place nadia down.... But god forbid to even suggest deploying solano first...

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 05:44 PM
Your entire argument hinges on Gellius + another unit doing Nadia's job. I gave you the math for the cost.

If you want to complicate this by saying Gellius + Solano + Nanaly + Aisha + Katie + Iris + random iron soldier #52 > Nadia, then I won't argue that. But if you're trying to prove that Gellius is the better unit that way, then fucking lol.

lolix
04-08-2016, 06:07 PM
no. i was pointing out that gelius is the better unit because he costs lower , is the best tanker in the game , he is not situational and he is universaly strong vs all offenses , while nadia is cost heavy ,has situational dps , and she is situational in general. This is why he's better. That being said , solano was an example of another good unit that can be deployed alongside gellius while having the same cost as a single nadia.

Eab1990
04-08-2016, 06:23 PM
>costs lower

Which again becomes irrelevant when you consider that you need to deploy other things with him to achieve the same result as Nadia.

>best tanker

Which is largely outweighed by the amount of DPS that Nadia provides.

>not situational

Which means he is also not the most efficient or even the best heavy choice in all situations.

And again, Solano has startup/downtime. Nadia has constant DPS. In practice, players know when to activate her skill to achieve the best output. But in theory, those downtimes put Gellius at a distinct disadvantage compared to just putting Nadia down.

You keep missing how these downsides add up. All you want to focus on is cost. You miss the entire point of a hybrid unit like Nadia.

lolix
04-08-2016, 08:04 PM
we're just going to spam another 3-4 pages repeating the same shit and still disagree , so let's end it and just say that each of us values different things in units. That's the beauty of aigis. It allows multiple playstyles. That being said , i don't see how a unit that can be used in literally any case were u need his specific class is worse then a unit that can be used in certain situations (even if in said situation she performs godlike)

Unregistered
04-08-2016, 11:26 PM
we're just going to spam another 3-4 pages repeating the same shit and still disagree , so let's end it and just say that each of us values different things in units. That's the beauty of aigis. It allows multiple playstyles. That being said , i don't see how a unit that can be used in literally any case were u need his specific class is worse then a unit that can be used in certain situations (even if in said situation she performs godlike)

You are gloriously backtracking so hard.

Friendly reminding you.

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we're just going to spam another 3-4 pages repeating the same shit and still disagree , so let's end it and just say that each of us values different things in units. That's the beauty of aigis. It allows multiple playstyles. That being said , i don't see how a unit that can be used in literally any case were u need his specific class is worse then a unit that can be used in certain situations (even if in said situation she performs godlike)

Lol you gave the point yourself. "Can be used in any situation that needs his class" is Gellius's weak point, like the archer gif. He's not universally useful, he's useful in specific situations, just like you were (wrongly) criticizing Nadia for. Nadia on the other hand is useful in a lot more situations, either as a tank, rush unit, or dps. In all these situations she is individually strong, but she's even better in that she can perform all three, while Gellius can only perform 1. So no, Gellius is not "universally good", that's Nadia. He's the situational one, not her.

soranokira
04-08-2016, 11:43 PM
well. thread has been hilarious. makes it worth coming back to read this.

also, I might as well point out that under most circumstances, gellius + dps support also needs UP generation assistance, not just nadia.
time to go back to farming chloe.

lolix
04-09-2016, 02:50 AM
not sure what you've read there, but i said that gelius is less situational then nadia , because he's universally good on any map that requires a heavy , vs all types of damage , while costing only slighty more up then a leanne for example.


You need a heavy ? place gelius. and that's all. There is no better alternative. Hell , he can work even on rush maps because he can block more even if he costs slighty more to deploy. Also he has univerasally high stats : hp , armor , mr , so he doesn't care about the stuff that attacks him.

Meanwhile nadia can't really be deployed on a rush map. There are betetr alternatives for both tanky duelists and for aoe duelists then her that can succesfully replace her to a better effect because they are cheaper. Besides that , her dps also is somewhat situational , so she's not universally good (sure , there aren't many ocasions where she won't deal damage , but still , there are some high resistance bosses that are better of being tanked by something else. In that regards gelius doesn't give a crap. He's universally the best heavy in all tanking departments , while nadia is not universally the best duelist. There are situations where she won't do much for you



I mean think of it like this :


There is no better alternative for gelius on any map ever i n terms of heavy. Realistically speaking , the maps thatt will force you to place a cheaper HA then him will be very few , simply because he costs just 5 more up then a silver. And once you have him on the map , you have the best tank in the game. stat.


Nadia , while a very strong duelist herself gives room for repalcements that might be cheaper , and do the same job almost as well. Also she is neither the best at any of the stuff she does. Yes , she will be insane on most maps , but there will be some isntances where she gets outclassed by other duelists or by other aoe dpsers.

Gelius won't ever be outclassed by another heavy , and realistically speaking the difference in cost between him and cheaper HAs is so low that he won't ever be replaced by a slighty weaker HA just to save UP

Unregistered
04-09-2016, 05:41 AM
not sure what you've read there, but i said that gelius is less situational then nadia , because he's universally good on any map that requires a heavy , vs all types of damage , while costing only slighty more up then a leanne for example.


You need a heavy ? place gelius. and that's all. There is no better alternative. Hell , he can work even on rush maps because he can block more even if he costs slighty more to deploy. Also he has univerasally high stats : hp , armor , mr , so he doesn't care about the stuff that attacks him.

Meanwhile nadia can't really be deployed on a rush map. There are betetr alternatives for both tanky duelists and for aoe duelists then her that can succesfully replace her to a better effect because they are cheaper. Besides that , her dps also is somewhat situational , so she's not universally good (sure , there aren't many ocasions where she won't deal damage , but still , there are some high resistance bosses that are better of being tanked by something else. In that regards gelius doesn't give a crap. He's universally the best heavy in all tanking departments , while nadia is not universally the best duelist. There are situations where she won't do much for you



I mean think of it like this :


There is no better alternative for gelius on any map ever i n terms of heavy. Realistically speaking , the maps thatt will force you to place a cheaper HA then him will be very few , simply because he costs just 5 more up then a silver. And once you have him on the map , you have the best tank in the game. stat.


Nadia , while a very strong duelist herself gives room for repalcements that might be cheaper , and do the same job almost as well. Also she is neither the best at any of the stuff she does. Yes , she will be insane on most maps , but there will be some isntances where she gets outclassed by other duelists or by other aoe dpsers.

Gelius won't ever be outclassed by another heavy , and realistically speaking the difference in cost between him and cheaper HAs is so low that he won't ever be replaced by a slighty weaker HA just to save UP



Good job digging the hole deeper m8. You have no idea how hard you are back tracking atm, just admit it you that you refuse to acknowledge you really dont know how easy it is to deploy a all purpose high cost broken unit.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 11:11 AM
haha ohwow

The difference between a mincost Leanne and a max-cost AW Gellius is 8. That's "slight" to you?

Ramazan
04-09-2016, 11:56 AM
So lemme ask which is better? Min-costed gellius or 2 gellius :rolleyes:

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 12:03 PM
There is no such thing as 2 copies of the same character :rolleyes:

Well apart from Aisha, that girl is the goddess of death and destruction so it makes sense that she exists in multiple forms.

lolix
04-09-2016, 12:21 PM
Good job digging the hole deeper m8. You have no idea how hard you are back tracking atm, just admit it you that you refuse to acknowledge you really dont know how easy it is to deploy a all purpose high cost broken unit.

were the fuck do you see backtracking here when this is exactly the same shit i kept repeating for 3-4 pages here ? like....explain. Where i started backtracking ? Zfrom where to where ? And what did i conceded ?


Yeah eab....because everyone always min-cost every silver ever. That being said , do u want to know what is the difference in cost between nadia and the cheapest possible min costed silver duelist ? A whole lot more. And it doesn't change the fact that nadia won't ever be the best in every instance , while gelius will always be the best tanking option

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 02:13 PM
Presumably someone who actually has Gellius/Nadia has been around long enough to farm silvers from events, and yes, get a mincost Leanne. If not, they're either incompetent at allocating their resources, or they're so new to the game that this situation doesn't matter to them.

It's not like every Leanne you ever get will go towards CC/AW'ing someone. There's always Bernard to fill in that gap. That's like saying you don't have a mincost Phyllis because you save all your copies, even though Crave or even Rosalie are perfectly viable alternatives.

So yes, people should have mincost silvers by some point. Or at least -2. You can't say the same about mincost gacha plats unless said plat is Cypria or Bashira (I myself happen to have -2 of both).

Keep digging that hole of yours, lolix.

Regardless, it's been established that both Gellius/Nadia need UP batteries. Their early "anti-rush" abilities are basically non-existent. Hell, I'd consider needing a UP battery for Leanne, if only because she obviously can't block off a path on her own.

lolix
04-09-2016, 02:35 PM
it doesn't change the fact that gellis is the best tanking option AND is easier to place (with the only real option of replacing him being a mincosted silver) , while nadia isn't the best duelist in a lot of instances , and the cost difference between her and ...well pretty much even expensive duelists like black princesses is bigger then the difference between gelius and leanne.


So yeah , i'm digging my hole , while you provide absolutly no argument as to why nadia is better. "Hur durr , 2k dps , hurr durr better then 2 mages." That doesn't make her less situational of a duelist in any way.

Larcx
04-09-2016, 02:39 PM
Mincost Silver , man.... You making it sounds easy
the only I have is Daniela
While others is refuse to -3 (most of My Silvers already -2 though) damn~
Even use 4 Phyliss once , and still not -3
Meh... fucking Silvers T__T

But eh... maybe after getting and AW Shuka
I guess I will try to kill Mortimer and Eunice
Becoz they are quite an eyesore , even if I can't -3 it
Atleast they die!!

lol

Unregistered
04-09-2016, 02:50 PM
it doesn't change the fact that gellis is the best tanking option AND is easier to place (with the only real option of replacing him being a mincosted silver) , while nadia isn't the best duelist in a lot of instances , and the cost difference between her and ...well pretty much even expensive duelists like black princesses is bigger then the difference between gelius and leanne.


So yeah , i'm digging my hole , while you provide absolutly no argument as to why nadia is better. "Hur durr , 2k dps , hurr durr better then 2 mages." That doesn't make her less situational of a duelist in any way.


No nadia is pretty much the best hybrid in the game when comes to killing/not dieing as oppose to gellius who only just doesn't die. There is a huge difference here.

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it doesn't change the fact that gellis is the best tanking option AND is easier to place (with the only real option of replacing him being a mincosted silver) , while nadia isn't the best duelist in a lot of instances , and the cost difference between her and ...well pretty much even expensive duelists like black princesses is bigger then the difference between gelius and leanne.


So yeah , i'm digging my hole , while you provide absolutly no argument as to why nadia is better. "Hur durr , 2k dps , hurr durr better then 2 mages." That doesn't make her less situational of a duelist in any way.


No nadia is pretty much the best hybrid in the game when comes to killing/not dieing as oppose to gellius who only just doesn't die. There is a huge difference here.

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You keep saying words like "situational" and "universal" like you know what it means but you must not. Nadia isn't limited to being just a duelist. The variety of ways you can use her makes her more "universal" than Gellius will ever be. You're backtracking when you started switching from "Gellius is universally useful" to "he's universally useful when you need HA". That's not universally useful, that's situational to when you need HA ffs. Keep digging, though, I'm sure you'll hit China someday.

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it doesn't change the fact that gellis is the best tanking option AND is easier to place (with the only real option of replacing him being a mincosted silver) , while nadia isn't the best duelist in a lot of instances , and the cost difference between her and ...well pretty much even expensive duelists like black princesses is bigger then the difference between gelius and leanne.


So yeah , i'm digging my hole , while you provide absolutly no argument as to why nadia is better. "Hur durr , 2k dps , hurr durr better then 2 mages." That doesn't make her less situational of a duelist in any way.


No nadia is pretty much the best hybrid in the game when comes to killing/not dieing as oppose to gellius who only just doesn't die. There is a huge difference here.

You keep saying words like "situational" and "universal" like you know what it means but you must not. Nadia isn't limited to being just a duelist. The variety of ways you can use her makes her more "universal" than Gellius will ever be. You're backtracking when you started switching from "Gellius is universally useful" to "he's universally useful when you need HA". That's not universally useful, that's situational to when you need HA ffs. Keep digging, though, I'm sure you'll hit China someday.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 02:53 PM
You keep ignoring the fact that "being easier to place" doesn't translate to "accomplishing the same task." If I only have enough UP for Gellius but not Nadia, dropping him first won't stop a rush of 6+ goblins.

By your logic, Solano is automatically superior to every mage because she can be placed down first, ignoring that she has a ten-second startup time or that she has a cooldown period. Obviously a mage isn't your first choice to place down in any map, but you'd like to ignore all that whenever it fits your argument.

blacksaber
04-09-2016, 03:25 PM
Not here to argue apples and oranges. I just have a question. Who the heck is Nadia?

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 03:26 PM
Not here to argue apples and oranges. I just have a question. Who the heck is Nadia?

See post 11.

blacksaber
04-09-2016, 03:48 PM
See post 11.

Well damn, she's on a dinosaur. Please continue your discussion. I'll gonna (ironically) go level Gellius, and get him ready for awakening.

lolix
04-09-2016, 04:11 PM
No nadia is pretty much the best hybrid in the game when comes to killing/not dieing as oppose to gellius who only just doesn't die. There is a huge difference here.

- - - Updated - - -




No nadia is pretty much the best hybrid in the game when comes to killing/not dieing as oppose to gellius who only just doesn't die. There is a huge difference here.

- - - Updated - - -

You keep saying words like "situational" and "universal" like you know what it means but you must not. Nadia isn't limited to being just a duelist. The variety of ways you can use her makes her more "universal" than Gellius will ever be. You're backtracking when you started switching from "Gellius is universally useful" to "he's universally useful when you need HA". That's not universally useful, that's situational to when you need HA ffs. Keep digging, though, I'm sure you'll hit China someday.

- - - Updated - - -




No nadia is pretty much the best hybrid in the game when comes to killing/not dieing as oppose to gellius who only just doesn't die. There is a huge difference here.

You keep saying words like "situational" and "universal" like you know what it means but you must not. Nadia isn't limited to being just a duelist. The variety of ways you can use her makes her more "universal" than Gellius will ever be. You're backtracking when you started switching from "Gellius is universally useful" to "he's universally useful when you need HA". That's not universally useful, that's situational to when you need HA ffs. Keep digging, though, I'm sure you'll hit China someday.




Are you kidding me ? Ofc i would mention the usefullness of a heavy in an instance that require a heavy. Would u place nadia when you require a healer ? No. You place nadia when you want an antiswarm dps or a duelist. The same goes with gelius. You place him when you need a god damn heavy.

What i meant by universally usefull is gellius's ability to tank both magic and physical damage because of his huge hp pool , armor , mr and very good block. There is not a tank that outstats him in that regards. And as i kept mentioning ,there aren't even situationally better tanks then him. HE IS THE BEST TANK IN EVERY SITUATION. Combined with the fact that his deploying costs aren't that high compared to other heavies , that means you won't have cases were you would need to replace him with a cheaper HA to save UP.

For example Nadia isn't universally usefull in terms of offense , and her costs also means that she won't be the top tier duelist even on some swarm maps....especially if u can place a cheaper dpser that can clear the enemy mobs even if they do way less damage. To that there is the fact that she's a very expensive duelist , and while she has very very high stats , you won't need her to block every boss , especially if u can block with a duelist that costs half her UP and you can deploy another dps or healer behind him. It's also the fact that she isn't even the best duelist vs all bosses. There are some bosses with very high resistance , and there are duelists that can do true damage.


What does that mean ? Nadia is a hybrid , i agree , and she CAN complete different roles in a team , but she is not the ultimate pick to field in every situation that would require said roles. Which is why she is situational. It doesn't matter that u can fill 2-3 rolles , if you get fielded only 20-30% of the time for said role , considering in the rest of cases , there is a unit that is better (and cheaper) then you at that specific role/instance. That does make her more situational then gelius. Meanwhile , Gellius IS the ultimate tank on maps that require tanks. There is also the fact that she is a very costly unit , that makes me conclude that gelius is the better plat.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 04:33 PM
Are you kidding me ? Ofc i would mention the usefullness of a heavy in an instance that require a heavy. Would u place nadia when you require a healer ? No. You place nadia when you want an antiswarm dps or a duelist. The same goes with gelius. You place him when you need a god damn heavy.

What i meant by universally usefull is gellius's ability to tank both magic and physical damage because of his huge hp pool , armor , mr and very good block. There is not a tank that outstats him in that regards. And as i kept mentioning ,there aren't even situationally better tanks then him. HE IS THE BEST TANK IN EVERY SITUATION. Combined with the fact that his deploying costs aren't that high compared to other heavies , that means you won't have cases were you would need to replace him with a cheaper HA to save UP.

For example Nadia isn't universally usefull in terms of offense , and her costs also means that she won't be the top tier duelist even on some swarm maps....especially if u can place a cheaper dpser that can clear the enemy mobs even if they do way less damage. To that there is the fact that she's a very expensive duelist , and while she has very very high stats , you won't need her to block every boss , especially if u can block with a duelist that costs half her UP and you can deploy another dps or healer behind him. It's also the fact that she isn't even the best duelist vs all bosses. There are some bosses with very high resistance , and there are duelists that can do true damage.


What does that mean ? Nadia is a hybrid , i agree , and she CAN complete different roles in a team , but she is not the ultimate pick to field in every situation that would require said roles. Which is why she is situational. It doesn't matter that u can fill 2-3 rolles , if you get fielded only 20-30% of the time for said role , considering in the rest of cases , there is a unit that is better (and cheaper) then you at that specific role/instance. That does make her more situational then gelius. Meanwhile , Gellius IS the ultimate tank on maps that require tanks. There is also the fact that she is a very costly unit , that makes me conclude that gelius is the better plat.

Except, you know... Karma when you don't want to worry about healing. Or literally anyone else when you want said tank to actually do damage.

Yeah, you have no fucking clue what situational means.

lolix
04-09-2016, 05:00 PM
yeah , you're acting like karma is a permanent tank vs megabosses or that everyone else will have the staying power that gelius has. Also he's supposed to be a tank and not a damn duelist

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 05:04 PM
HE IS THE BEST TANK IN EVERY SITUATION.


The problem is that he isn't. He is the best tank for high end golem bosses, but you don't really bump into those regularly. Any tank that can do his job, with the same amount of healers, can do a better job if they deal more damage.

Unregistered
04-09-2016, 05:10 PM
yeah , you're acting like karma is a permanent tank vs megabosses or that everyone else will have the staying power that gelius has. Also he's supposed to be a tank and not a damn duelist


Actually yea karma is actually a permanent tank vs megabosses. Keep staying in that hole it must be very comfy :3.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 05:15 PM
yeah , you're acting like karma is a permanent tank vs megabosses or that everyone else will have the staying power that gelius has. Also he's supposed to be a tank and not a damn duelist

You act like those are mutually exclusive. Tanks, lightning rods, whatever. Fucking Conrad or Dahlia can accomplish more than Gellius in the right conditions.

I've said before that Gellius wins in a battle of attrition. But to say he's the best tank in every situation is completely wrong. Again, if you can safely DPS the fuck out of something before it can kill anyone, then Gellius is not your answer.

Get a fucking clue already.

lolix
04-09-2016, 05:23 PM
not any tank can do the same job , and he needs a lot less healing compared to bernice for example for general maps. And instead of placing another healer , u can simply place a dps. ALso he doesn't costs insanely more then other heavies either to warrant placing another slighty weaker tank over him.


PS: talking about karma , she can even replace nadia for that matter as a duelist when you don't want to worry about healing. See how that works ? DIfference being that karma and gelius fill different rolls , while nadia and karma fill the same place.

lolix
04-09-2016, 05:28 PM
I've said before that Gellius wins in a battle of attrition. But to say he's the best tank in every situation is completely wrong. Again, if you can safely DPS the fuck out of something before it can kill anyone, then Gellius is not your answer.

Get a fucking clue already.


You just admited that he's the unit with the best staying power in the game , but aparently he's not the best tank ? Wut ? Then you speak of tanks , and you say that dpsers make better tanks ? wut again ? You're even contradicting yourself now. Why am i expecting an actual conversation ? And being a tank is not the same thing as being a dpser. Sure , sometimes dps duelists are better then denfesive duelists , but in that case , you don't fucking place a heavy. You place a tank when you need a tank , and gelius is the best tank (need i remind you what a tank is in games before we start arguing again?) duh

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 05:32 PM
You just admited that he's the unit with the best staying power in the game , but aparently he's not the best tank ? Wut ? The you speak of tanks , and you say that dpsers make better tanks ? wut again ? You're even contradicting yourself now. Why am i expecting an actual conversation ? And being a tank is not the same thing as being a dpser. Sure , sometimes dps duelists are better then denfesive duelists , but in that case , you don't fucking place a heavy. You place a tank when you need a tank. duh

Because *gasp* Gellius is not the only one doing all the blocking at any given time!

If you need healers elsewhere, or your archers are preoccupied with whatever's in the sky, or you're lacking in AOE or DPS or whatever else, then your argument that Gellius is the best tank in every situation that calls for it falls apart, because your entire argument has hinged on the mistaken notion that Gellius with outside support trumps all else.

Unregistered
04-09-2016, 05:33 PM
You just admited that he's the unit with the best staying power in the game , but aparently he's not the best tank ? Wut ? Then you speak of tanks , and you say that dpsers make better tanks ? wut again ? You're even contradicting yourself now. Why am i expecting an actual conversation ? And being a tank is not the same thing as being a dpser. Sure , sometimes dps duelists are better then denfesive duelists , but in that case , you don't fucking place a heavy. You place a tank when you need a tank , and gelius is the best tank (need i remind you what a tank is in games before we start arguing again?) duh

Wait wait this situation it sounds so familiar where have I heard of this? Oh Nadia, she fits exactly what you said! Thanks for proving everyone's point. I want to crawl in that hole you dug it looks really comfy.

lolix
04-09-2016, 05:41 PM
No my entire argument hinged on people using their brains. He is the best tank when you actually need a tank. If you have flyers , do you need a tank ? No , you place ranged dps. If you have rush maps or swarms , do you place tanks ? You generally place anti swarmers or aoe dps , yes ?

If you actually do need a tank , gellius is the best.


Edit : yes unregistred , nadia fits exactly said situation : who would have guessed that you place a dps duelist when you need dps ? But even then , she won't be the duelist you place in 100% of cases. Meanwhile , if you nee dto place a heavy on a map , and you have gelius , u can easily place him instead of any other tank

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 05:51 PM
No my entire argument hinged on people using their brains. He is the best tank when you actually need a tank. If you have flyers , do you need a tank ? No , you place ranged dps. If you have rush maps or swarms , do you place tanks ? You generally place anti swarmers or aoe dps , yes ?

If you actually do need a tank , gellius is the best.

And absolutely none of those situations are mutually exclusive either.

Remember the G map with Minerva? A rush map of merfolk, goblin archers/necromancers, and demons, including the scythe bastards with ranged attacks. You needed DPS, a few tanks/lightning rod blockers, and probably some luck with assassination. But ranged slots were spread out and you had three exits to block, so you needed to concentrate your DPS and use tanks or duelists with high block, or have a shitton of AOE on hand. Or use rogues/ninjas and hope for the best, but that's obviously not ideal.

Everyone used spread-out heavies to deal with the clusterfuck, but there's a situation that Nadia would've done much better than Gellius would have.

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 05:54 PM
So your argument basically is "he is the best tank all the time since he can tank golems"?

Because while he has the best staying power, saying he is the best tank for every situation is not going to help.

It's like saying archers are the best dps for every situation because they deal a lot of damage at a fast pace. Sure, you want archers for a lot of situations, but many times a mage can be great too.

In the same sense, Gellius is only really the best tank as long as he does at least one of the following:
-Removes the need for another healer
-Doesn't give you a problem because you lack damage
-Cannot be replaced because you need his extreme sturdiness

If he does neither, then saying he is the best tank for that situation is, and i hate this word, retarded. If anything else can accomplish the tanking duty and also deals more damage then they are obviously the -better tank for the situation-

I wonder if my comments mostly get ignored in face of continously answering the others, because i sure never feel like i get replied to.

lolix
04-09-2016, 05:58 PM
i get the feeling that you people confuse terms : "tanking" is not the same as "blocking". Different nuances , and while a tank also blocks a blocker doesn't necesarily tank.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 06:01 PM
Blocking and tanking golems are literally the only things Gellius definitively has over Nadia, and Nadia gets around the former by having ground AoE.

But by all means, continue to destroy your own argument.

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 06:04 PM
i get the feeling that you people confuse terms : "tanking" is not the same as "blocking". Different nuances , and while a tank also blocks a blocker doesn't necesarily tank.

There is no confusion. The problem is that you seem to think "when you really need a tank" means tanking golems and mega bosses. And everyone else thinks of tough situations with decently damaging mobs that a lot of things will not be able to handle.

Bernice and the blacks do an equally good work for pretty much every damn mob out there apart from the golems/bosses AND they deal more damage (Well, Bernice only with SA). So in that sense, Gellius is only really the best choice if he removes the need for another healer or something else would have died. Most heavy armours as well as Nadia do not die vs most of the standard heavy-hitters that are not mega-endgame-bosses-of-fucking-doom-and-deathination. So in that sense Gellius is probably not the best choice.

So there is the problem - you keep saying "tanking" as if every map in the future will include high end bosses and thus saying Gellius is best. Meanwhile the rest of us look at pretty much every other map where we do not face those ultimate bosses and seeing that Gellius can be easily replaced on those.

Edit: I had to google deathination and only usernames on different sites popped up. I shall now declare this as a new fancy word for ultimate destruction.

lolix
04-09-2016, 06:10 PM
so let me get it straight. Nadia is better because she has better dps , even tho she costs more , blocks less , and is not even the best duelist in the game for most situations , but gellius is worse because he can literally facetank everything , even high tier bosses , costs less enough that there is little need to replace him with a cheaper heavy if you need a HA on the map , and has generally really high defensive stats ? But he is worse then her because she does damage. ok mate.


Edit : tenhou , and u don't see the same happening with nadia ? There are enough cheaper duelists or anti swarms out there capable of doing what she does (even if they have crapier dps , they will cost quite a lot cheaper , leaving enough room to place another unit on the field). You don't need an 2k dps anti swarmer for every map either.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 06:15 PM
Yeah, you're just going to bullshit your way for another 100 posts despite being proven wrong at every turn.

Christ, you're worse than FarK.

If you're going to continue to make incorrect blanket statements and ignore every legitimate argument, then you may as well stop posting and wasting everyone's time.

lolix
04-09-2016, 06:20 PM
the problem is Eab that you have proven nothing. Also you don't bring arguments to a conversation. You just disagree with the points someone else brings , but care little for explaining yourself. And i am not wasting anybody's time here except mine. Nobody forces you to respond either.

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 06:21 PM
They are around the same because both have heavy UP requirements. Gellius for the dps that need to help him kill things and Nadia for the UP she needs. In both cases you won't be deploying them early but they are both broken units in their given roles. That doesn't mean the other is better and i guess the others are pissed off at you because you stated Gellius is better everywhere.

In most cases you will deploy a soldier or two, then something else and if nothing else is needed for the moment you will just wait and store UP for when it is needed. This is where Nadia can replace Gellius for most maps. If you need a heavy armour down fast for some reason then of course he will be better. But i barely see any maps where you need one down asap so you can just wait for Nadia to get ready instead.

That being said, that jungle subjugation map on DMM is like made for Nadia, where can i get my free copy? >.<

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 06:25 PM
I've proven plenty, you just refuse to address the arguments that actively contradict your statements and continue to parrot your nonsense about cost or defense all day. You've not addressed any of the situations where Nadia is definitively better than Gellius in spite of the fact that said situations fit your definition of "need heavy here".

lolix
04-09-2016, 06:27 PM
@ tenhou the problem is that i didn't even said that gellius is better everywhere. Just go back , from the very start of the argument and look at my comments. I said from the start that in the right conditions nadia is downright broken. I said that gellius os the best tank that you can place on any map that requires a heavy , and that he's universally good vs all types of damage because of his high stats.

- - - Updated - - -


I've proven plenty, you just refuse to address the arguments that actively contradict your statements and continue to parrot your nonsense about cost or defense all day. You've not addressed any of the situations where Nadia is definitively better than Gellius in spite of the fact that said situations fit your definition of "need heavy here".


I get the feeling that you are either blind , or dislike using your brain. Since the very first comments i admited that under the right circumstances nadia is downright broken , and ofc there will be situations where she might outperform gellius. That doesn't mean that she's better then gellis , seeing as i can make specific situation to make even the most niche units look godlike ? How is that even a god damn argument ?

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 06:29 PM
And you were continuously proven wrong about Gellius being the best tank because, once again, if you can DPS something before it becomes a problem, then a cheaper tank or a tank that can also do damage is superior than Gellius.

The argument that Nadia is better is because Nadia fulfills her roles better than Gellius can. Gellius is replaceable with any tank unless golems are involved or ranged slots are sparse. Nadia is replaceable with a duelist and 2-3 mages. Obviously you get better returns with Nadia, therefore Nadia is the superior unit when it matters.

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 06:32 PM
I get the feeling that you are either blind , or dislike using your brain. Since the very first comments i admited that under the right circumstances nadia is downright broken , and ofc there will be situations where she might outperform gellius. That doesn't mean that she's better then gellis , seeing as i can make specific situation to make even the most niche units look godlike ? How is that even a god damn argument ?

The problem with this is that she isn't really niche. Her cost is barely higher than mages and those you still mange to place during maps, right? So if you can skip placing Gellius + a mage and just place her, then provided she can tank whatever comes her way, she will be worth 2-3 mages in terms of dps AND will not need to block because she will brutally murder things before they get a chance to go past her, with her high attack speed.

Edit:
In either case none of the two are placed down on a map asap, really.

lolix
04-09-2016, 06:40 PM
unless u can replace nadia with a duelist with aoe assasination , or place her vs a boss with high resistance and she does jack squat damage , when a duelist with true damage would outperform her easily.
Or you need a duelist to stall a megaboss , in which case olivie or karma would work better , or you have a very early swarm where she won't even be placed. the fact is there are many situations where nadia doesn't do her job that well either.
And your argument that gelius does no damage compared to bernice ....well , how much damage do you think bernice will return to most enemies ? I mean it mostly depends on how her counter works : if she does half of the enemies attack or half of the damage taken , but even so...

And against really high damaging bosses , you're better of using a better tank , then have your tank return some damage , but need more healers. If that's the case , gellius will masively outperform bernice against higher tier enemies , and not get vastly outperformed against low tier enemies to warrant him not being fielded over bernice

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 06:44 PM
I wasn't really heavily implying Bernice is the greatest replacement.

I'm getting a bit tired of this now. Can we just agree that both units are broken compared to their tier of rarity? That was the bloody topic anyways. Use what you want, provided you have it and it works.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 06:47 PM
unless u can replace nadia with a duelist with aoe assasination , or place her vs a boss with high resistance and she does jack squat damage , when a duelist with true damage would outperform her easily.
Or you need a duelist to stall a megaboss , in which case olivie or karma would work better , or you have a very early swarm where she won't even be placed. the fact is there are many situations where nadia doesn't do her job that well either.
And your argument that gelius does no damage compared to bernice ....well , how much damage do you think bernice will return to most enemies ? I mean it mostly depends on how her counter works : if she does half of the enemies attack or half of the damage taken , but even so...

And against really high damaging bosses , you're better of using a better tank , then have your tank return some damage , but need more healers. If that's the case , gellius will masively outperform bernice against higher tier enemies , and not get vastly outperformed against low tier enemies to warrant him not being fielded over bernice

Those aren't situations that you would use a duelist and three mages, let alone Gellius and whatever else. Good job moving goalposts.

lolix
04-09-2016, 06:51 PM
how the hell would you even think that i was comparing how both units would perform in the same situation , when literally untill now i was talking about how good each unit perform in their own god damn role ? Holy hell. But pls , keep at it. Argue without reading what others said before. You're definetly making me look bad

switch
04-09-2016, 06:57 PM
While we are talking about gellius being the best tank.. Is it just me or does it annoy anyone else that a plat is even better then a black. Blacks should be the very best at their role. Deine should be able to block anything and say self heal or do more damage. Cause she can't tank the end game golems right?

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 06:59 PM
how the hell would you even think that i was comparing how both units would perform in the same situation , when literally untill now i was talking about how good each unit perform in their own god damn role ? Holy hell. But pls , keep at it. Argue without reading what others said before. You're definetly making me look bad

You're the one that talked about replacing Nadia with all those things directly after I said Nadia is replaceable with a duelist and three mages. What the fuck else was I supposed to determine from your idiotic post?

lolix
04-09-2016, 07:05 PM
i just pointed out that nadia can be outperdormed by individual units in different situations , because you were going on and one about how gellius can be outperformed by other individual units in his own role. I just shoawed that the same goes for nadia , and no , she won't always do the same job as 3 mages and 1 duelist. Depending on the situation , she won't even replace a single duelist

focus mate

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 07:13 PM
No shit, but that doesn't devalue Nadia the same way other heavies/tanks devalue Gellius.

Again, Nadia is good at what she does. That doesn't include AOE assassination, or high-resistance, or whatever the fuck else in that post.

Tenhou
04-09-2016, 07:14 PM
While we are talking about gellius being the best tank.. Is it just me or does it annoy anyone else that a plat is even better then a black. Blacks should be the very best at their role. Deine should be able to block anything and say self heal or do more damage. Cause she can't tank the end game golems right?

I agree that there should at least be ONE black tank that can outperform Gellius in end game tanking. That said, Deine is an absolute beast in damage as a tank. 1k+ dps non-awakened with her skill up. Yes, dps, not damage.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 07:23 PM
The black vs. plat argument is interesting in itself, but except for a few cases, blacks aren't always better.

Look at princesses, for example. Lilia and Sherry have their moments where Sybilla or Olivie would underperform.

The exceptions would probably be Nanaly and black Iris.

lolix
04-09-2016, 07:32 PM
i disagree. It devaluates nadia quite a lot considering the stuff that does replace her is usually a lot cheaper then the heavies that generally replace gellius (there aren't even that many situation were he gets totally outperformed).

Let's see....what roles does Nadia fill ? Antiswarm , dueling , aoe dps , yes ? Know what else is a good antiswarm > Aoe assasination. Nadia is good at being a duelist becasue of her high stats , yeah ?. U know what else outduels her vs high reisstance units ? True damage duelists.
Oh for that matter , true damage aoe dps outperforms her at doing dps as well vs resistanfce mobs.


The fact is , no matter how much u want to make her look op in every situation , there are plenty of units that can outperform her in her selected roles in certain situations. More so then the units that can outperform gellius in his role.


Do you disagree ?

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 07:43 PM
i disagree. It devaluates nadia quite a lot considering the stuff that does replace her is usually a lot cheaper then the heavies that generally replace gellius (there aren't even that many situation were he gets totally outperformed).

Let's see....what roles does Nadia fill ? Antiswarm , dueling , aoe dps , yes ? Know what else is a good antiswarm > Aoe assasination. Nadia is good at being a duelist becasue of her high stats , yeah ?. U know what else outduels her vs high reisstance units ? True damage duelists.
Oh for that matter , true damage aoe dps outperforms her at doing dps as well vs resistanfce mobs.


The fact is , no matter how much u want to make her look op in every situation , there are plenty of units that can outperform her in her selected roles in certain situations. More so then the units that can outperform gellius in his role.


Do you disagree ?

I see that you continue to ignore the entire point of what a hybrid unit entails.

It's not that Nadia is the best at all of those things (though she is definitely the best anti-swarm), it's that she can do all of those things to begin with. Name a true damage duelist that can also handle themselves against a swarm. An AOE assassin like AW Berna is a dodgetanker with no drawbacks, thanks to her rogue retreat passive, and therefore theoretically *could* replace Nadia, but unlike Nadia, that doesn't mean she'll fail at stalling or DPS if RNG is unlucky. Even then, you'd still need a few mages to even come close to the DPS that Nadia provides.

And you once again ignored how Nadia is barely more costly than a mage, let alone a heavy + 3 mage combo.

Karsuman
04-09-2016, 08:06 PM
@lolix:

more than one person here has experience with both of these units, maxed out and SAW'd. your staunch refusal to accept their opinion despite having no experience with Nadia herself, combined with your poor reasoning skills and seeming inability to rationalize logical arguments, this leads me to believe you're just arbitrarily saying stuff because you really, really want to be right.

i have used sybilla, olivia, clissa, lyla, erenia, thetis, rakshasa, alice, cornelia, aw prince, etc. on mine and others accounts, many of them at max level or high level AW and with AW skill. even having had experience with all these powerful duelists and fighters, i can definitively say that nadia offers something quite distinct from all of them - something that NONE of them can replicate. and that something is hardly niche; permanent AoE with a considerable ATK/DEF modifier is amazing, as much as you seem to want to deny it.

re: true damage - it's pretty obvious you don't know what you're on about. here's a list of the 'true damage duelists'i that take up a melee slot, and if i forgot someone it's probably not worth mentioning.

claudia - okay damage, cannot handle swarms, cannot tank well.
clissa - good damage, proc chance based. cannot handle swarms. cannot tank near nadia's level.
rakshasa, black majin - reusable token does lots of true damage on low cd, but cannot be healed. cannot handle swarms.
nezha, black hermit - has the stats, but skill(and true damage) only lasts 15s, and has long cd. mediocre with swarms. only blocks while skill is up, otherwise block 0.
hina - low proc chance, mediocre with swarms, low defensive stats, low damage
some swordmasters - one shot skill for high true damage. good against swarms, but not constant ones. can be difficult or impossible to use depending on layout. lacks defensive stats.
sabine - good damage, mediocre with swarms, low defenses.

so yes, pointless comparison since nothing compares. at all. also, nadia damages pretty much everything in the game except an enemy type that NEVER swarms(high-tier golems), i'd say she's pretty solid for low, mid and even high grade swarming.

as for assassination procs, i assume you're talking about berna? she is good anti-swarm, yes, but it is also on a CD and berna herself is a pretty shoddy tank. also, a black. and assassination is worthless when the enemy has .0000001% chance of getting affected(like golems) if you were worried about these mythical golem swarms i talked about before.



re: gellius versus other heavies. the irony is, gellius is actually pretty niche compared to the likes of dina, who nutaku does not yet have. her SAW is pretty epic and her body is big enough to tank pretty much whatever - if the enemies don't die first. yes, this is not what people ask for in an HA, and people complain about the male gold a lot, but i'd honestly use dina over gellius 90% of the time. the other 10% of the time being enemies with over 5kish in damage(6kish in my case; I have lots of passives and b. iris).

re: black iris - she has a very high basic level of healing but will actually heal less than most other healers in the end, even with AWS. her real power, and why she's so broken, is her massive defense buff. against magic you'd be better off with camilla or saria. in fact, saria was the most used unit in the furfur event(demon god tier, ultra difficult). pretty op.

Eab1990
04-09-2016, 08:44 PM
Yeah, I guess black Iris' buff doesn't necessarily negate Saria's ridiculously useful skill.

So just Nanaly, I guess.

soranokira
04-09-2016, 08:58 PM
I think lolix's favorite point is his insane love for solano and her true damage coupled with gellius tanking the mobs for solano to kill. because 700+ (with buffs and all I guess she'd reach 1k?) true damage is better than 2k aoe smashing physical attack 24/7 since every mob that has to be killed by nadia will easily have more than 1k def.

also apparently gellius is such an amazing tank that when he blocks 5 onis/ghouls and support dps fail to kill them in time, all the other ghouls/onis/kamaitachi can't just run past him and they'll not be an issue at all, yup.

and because of all that, lolix cannot accept that nadia is considered best plat since gellius is better than nadia at what they're supposed to do. since nadia's ability to both tank boss + wipe creeps at the same time is not as good as gellius's ability to facetank said boss and creeps.

lolix
04-10-2016, 12:47 PM
@Karsuman : feel free to look back on my replies. I never denied that nadia is an amazing unit. Why do people think that me believing a unit is better then another , means that the other unit is crap ? No. it's not. And nobody denied that her insane dps and monster stats are ....well ...insane.
Second of all , unless nadia does something more then i've saw in the videos , she seems pretty straightforward in her use. It's not hard to deduce the way she's being used , but i'll agree that having her on nutaku would give us a better view of what she can do. Maybe using her feels better then what she looks on paper

Third , people pointed out that gellius is situational because he does no damage from the role of a tank and that tanks like deine/dina (2 blacks) are better because of the dps. I personally disagree , since i generally like specialized units over hybrids , and i'd generally take a defensive tank over a offensive "tank". While that is somewhat true (sometimes , you do need damage) , it doesn't change the fact that gellius is the best tank in the game and the only one that can facetank everything at that , and yes , he will need more dps support , but at the same time , he will also need less healing support.

Regardless , i pointed out that Nadia also has situations where she will struggle and situation where she can be replaced just as well by cheaper stuff. That doesn't mean she's a bad unit , but it does mean that she won't be deployed in every situation either(especially with her costs).

In the end each to his own i guess. The fact stands that both are black tier which is what this thread is about in the firstplace. Doesn't change the fact that dififerent people will have different opinion , and different styles of playing the game. I personally favour gellius over nadia , but whatever..

@edit : sora wtf are you even talking about ? solano was a random example that happened to fit for my argument. Also , you're missing the point where nadia also needs a blocker behind her to make use of her insane dps for beefier units

Eab1990
04-10-2016, 01:38 PM
Because you once again have not proved how Gellius is better than Nadia at anything except tanking golems.

Solano doing true damage to a group does not make Gellius better than Nadia.
Olivie being a better duelist than Nadia does not make Gellius better than Nadia.
AW Berna etc. etc.

You keep sidetracking and not addressing the main issue of how the "anti-situational yet inefficient" Gellius is somehow better than the "situational yet effective" Nadia.

lolix
04-10-2016, 07:55 PM
the point is , u can place gellius on every map that requires a heavy , with very minor differences in results because the cost difference between heavies is rather small anyway. The main difference would at best be how fast u can kill stuff if u place dina/deine instead of gellius. But that's all. Gellius won't lose u the map anyway , because even if he lacks the dps , he tanks better and blocks more


Nadia can be replaced on maps that require a duelist/anti swarmer , especially if it's an early rush. Yes , she's amazing at what she does , but realistically speaking , not all maps will require her firepower , and placing cheaper units will be better. Gellius is not like that. He can be placed on any map that requires heavy , with minor differences in outcomes

switch
04-12-2016, 07:56 AM
I have found myself with a few plat duelists just curious in nutaku. What are the best duelists going by their skill awakening that will come out at some point.

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Feel free to also add any event plats that may be coming up.

Eab1990
04-12-2016, 09:23 AM
I have found myself with a few plat duelists just curious in nutaku. What are the best duelists going by their skill awakening that will come out at some point.

- - - Updated - - -

Feel free to also add any event plats that may be coming up.

Lilia.

Well, any princess not named Themis, really, but Lilia is love.

Also Rika for true damage.

switch
04-12-2016, 09:34 AM
after posting this seen the skills in awakening post. are thetis and lyla worth? i also have claudia sherry and shizuka if they worth

soranokira
04-12-2016, 10:02 AM
after posting this seen the skills in awakening post. are thetis and lyla worth? i also have claudia sherry and shizuka if they worth

thetis is great for anti-paralysis bosses. lyla supposedly has excellent raw stats to work with but I don't have her to try it out myself. sherry and claudia are decent (particularly sherry whose AWS has rather insane overall magic dps). shizuka...can't really say much for her since her class itself is a little sad. but if you ever use any samurai it's probably her I think, based on comments by dmm veterans.

switch
04-12-2016, 10:44 AM
Well lyla does aoe damage and get gold. And shizuka seems like a self sustain beast aha

Ramazan
04-12-2016, 11:25 AM
Aw lilia best? But what about olivie? She gets %100 dogde + superfast speed during aw skill unlike lilias defence bonus which is unreliable when facing endgame bosses am i wrong? Made this statement regarding from a endgame story mission video where gellius tanking golem while mages+others dps it versus olivie herself finished it very quickly than others which made me got an impression for her.


Edit: Got a question btw: cypria gets %90 dodge, if she gets defeated assuming %10 chance hit, is it treated as a draw?

Larcx
04-12-2016, 12:09 PM
Olivie is hard to get though
Sure in that situation she kill Golem faster than Gellius tanking it
Another way is to kill the Golem with Metus / any other token spam I guess(?)

Eab1990
04-12-2016, 12:53 PM
Aw lilia best? But what about olivie? She gets %100 dogde + superfast speed during aw skill unlike lilias defence bonus which is unreliable when facing endgame bosses am i wrong? Made this statement regarding from a endgame story mission video where gellius tanking golem while mages+others dps it versus olivie herself finished it very quickly than others which made me got an impression for her.


Edit: Got a question btw: cypria gets %90 dodge, if she gets defeated assuming %10 chance hit, is it treated as a draw?

Olivie is black, so...

Yeah, I don't think Lilia can tank golems and endgame bosses alone, but otherwise, she has a lot of survivability once AW'd, and she gets a massive stat boost from SAW.

As for your Cypria question, rogues only withdraw if AW Berna is on the field. That's the only circumstance I'm aware of. Otherwise, it counts as a death.

soranokira
04-12-2016, 01:18 PM
Lilia beats all other princesses in terms of anti-magic survivability (due to regen) even if she doesnt have sybilla's 20 MR or olivie's 25 MR. (or to be exact, her status immunity during AWS + crazy regen + increased def makes her the most unkillable princess when considering both physical and magical)

Ramazan
04-12-2016, 02:02 PM
Well i forgot she had regen passive and status immunity O.o so she is then the best magic tank despite having lower mr than others, thanks to her regen? and healer friendly second best physical tank. This makes her better duelist even than sybilla huh? More reliable, at least. Time to check aw list again.

@eab: then no point bothering with her, i never trust %90 chance especially in aigis.

Wrong thread but: i was levelling claudia for her true damage but event wasnt go well and get her 4/10 skill and only -1 uc'ed, she was my priority over lilia then i saw what u posted about her. Gonna level them both anyway but which one should be my priority to use in battles, levelling, skill leveling (lilia seems to be better choice for this) and aw'ing, when it comes out. I saw u guys mentioned claudia and lilia few times in plat=black thread thus made my mind confused even more. They both around level 45, perform very well (claudia seems attack much slower though and didnt needed her true dmg)

Eab1990
04-12-2016, 02:56 PM
Lilia would be the safer option to level since there are few things on our server that can kill her.

Generally speaking, I'd think it'd depend on the enemy you're dueling and what your ranged team looks like. If you have good healers, Lilia will work better. If you've got better archers/witches, Claudia will work, though you'll probably want to raise her skill more. Once princess AW rolls around though, Lilia will leave her in the dust.

Larcx
04-12-2016, 03:33 PM
Well yeah , Gatcha is always better than Event
Even if its Item Collection
Some exception maybe Karma

But Lilia is only better for normal Boss (Nutaku Server)

With current DMM Event , how I wish I have Claudia
That shitty Seraphim have 40 MR and his regen is also shitty
Have to wait for 600UP+ even 750 UP+ until its wear off

Having Claudia will make it a lil bit faster

But that is something will happen on 2020 (maybe) lol

soranokira
04-12-2016, 11:41 PM
currently, I dont think the other princesses have gotten the aspd buff so claudia still attacks equally fast. (on our version)

@larcx I think that's a rather stupid idea to let claudia tank seraphim even if she can. I doubt she can get more than 600 def easily so you need 1.4k worth of heals on her, and then there's all the other dps coming from the angels before you can wipe them out. unless you're referring to AWS claudia, which under such a situation you might as well wish you had rion/nanaly and so on.

lolix
04-12-2016, 11:46 PM
i agree. lilia is a gret princess. She might be better then the blacks after her skill AW in terms of pure dueling. Rika is good as well , but dunno if switch was around to get her.


That being said , it might be easier if you just said what you got switch , and we could advice on what to level up after

switch
04-13-2016, 12:10 AM
i listed the duelists i had :P lyla, claudia,sherry,lilla, thetis

lolix
04-13-2016, 01:24 AM
damn , that's quite a list. Actually i like sherry's skill aw as well , but lilia becomes a better pure duelist. Tethis becomes imune to paralyzing effects as well and lyla gets gold get passive after aw. Also does a fckload of dmg. All in all , pretty much all are aw matterial

switch
04-13-2016, 01:37 AM
I also have shizuka aha

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My thoughts atm are. Lyla does good damage and aoe with gold gen. So probs Lilla as the other duelist with random pick for the 3rd back up

Karsuman
04-13-2016, 02:30 AM
In modern DMM, Sherry, Thetis and Lyla are the most useful in your list. The best/most popular princesses tend to be capable of avoiding damage(the blacks, Sherry) outright instead of taking damage. Thetis covers your need for status immunity anyway.

Also, if you use any gold units, Sherry is immediately far better than Lilia since Sherry's passive effectively turns golds into plats, statwise.

switch
04-13-2016, 02:49 AM
Only golds I use are Katie and mehlis when needed

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Oh and iris

Larcx
04-13-2016, 03:00 AM
currently, I dont think the other princesses have gotten the aspd buff so claudia still attacks equally fast. (on our version)

@larcx I think that's a rather stupid idea to let claudia tank seraphim even if she can. I doubt she can get more than 600 def easily so you need 1.4k worth of heals on her, and then there's all the other dps coming from the angels before you can wipe them out. unless you're referring to AWS claudia, which under such a situation you might as well wish you had rion/nanaly and so on.

1,4K worth of heal is easy though~
2 AW Healer can have that amount easily

DPS from other Angel?
Eh... not a problem , they all ded

Rion/Nanaly? MEH......
If talking about wish , then I wish I have all Black Team , then people will not complaint about that shitty Seraphim~

AWS Claudia? AW Claudia should be enough I think