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NutakuDev
12-30-2015, 02:08 PM
I'm posting a short description on several forums regarding an issue that has affected some of you when interacting with our social media pages.

Firstly, our social media admins don't like removing posts. That said:

1. Nutaku does not have any loli characters in our games.

2. Please don't request loli characters. You may request any specific character you would like, just not "more loli characters".

Some of you may have noticed that our games are containing a much wider variety of characters than they previously did. We're very happy about this and it took a lot of hard work to get to this point. While we appreciate it when people post messages regarding our wider range of content, asking for loli or implying we have loli in our games jeopardizes our ability to bring new characters and invites a crackdown on the content we already have.

It's not an exaggeration to say that places like Facebook and Twitter are being monitored by our payment processors. Posts about this subject on our official pages gives them ammunition to censor us. We know this because it's happened already.

So for the sake of the content we have and the games we hope to acquire, any post implying that Nutaku has underage characters will be removed. The irony of having to censor some comments to get more uncensored content isn't lost on us, but that's a price we're willing to pay for more characters, H-scenes, and games.

Slurpee
12-30-2015, 04:00 PM
As a customer who has paid hard earned money just for the possibility to unlock pieces of digital code (and sometimes not getting anything since that's the way gatcha works), might I suggest you work to find more accommodating payment processors?

For some of us, while we are not interested in underaged characters, simply don't like altered products and want a product without missing content.

Quite frankly, we pay you and you pay your payment processors. You should worried about what we want and your payment processors should be worried about what you want, not the other way around. If your payment processor has the manpower to be monitoring your facebook page, then they are wasting human resources and not doing an effective job. All they are being paid to do is just process the payments. I would argue that that's an even greater indication that they should be ditched for another payment processor.

So the only question I'm actually interested in is this : Are you working to find another payment processor or not? Why not? How long would it take?

Skyehmm
12-30-2015, 06:19 PM
Some of the stuff has to do with laws. Images, movies and such with uncensored nude or almost nude underaged characters is illegal in alot of countries. Or something like that, like child pornography?

Overload
12-30-2015, 06:39 PM
Some of the stuff has to do with laws. Images, movies and such with uncensored nude or almost nude underaged characters is illegal in alot of countries. Or something like that, like child pornography?

Lolis are not always underaged, in most cases just women with a small cup size and/or small body size. And it's not a law issue, it's an issue with the processor who doesn't like lolis because they fear to lose reputation with content like that.

Slurpee
12-30-2015, 07:51 PM
1) Nutaku has never said that they were being restricted by such laws.
They said they were restricted by the payment processors.

Therefore change the payment processors and the problem should be solved.

Please don't make up reasons that Nutaku never even mentioned.
If this is the case, then Nutaku needs to clearly say this instead of blaming the payment processors.
Say "We are based in Country X and will never ever have these characters because these are the laws of our country"

2) It has been mentioned time and again that Aigis has all-ages scenes that replace the h scenes for the underaged characters and that could be used without breaking any laws.
Not everyone is interested in the h scenes. Once again, these are solutions that have been proposed months ago. People expect answers, not just sit around and play dumb.

3)Some of these were reasonable excuses 9 months ago when nutaku was a small site with 2 or 3 games. They never came out to say : We are never going to work on art issues ever. The issue was left hanging and some people expected changes to eventually happen. Now they have 13 games on nutaku.net and 3 games on nutaku.com. I have witnessed whales spending hundreds or thousands on their accounts. In games like Pero, there were cards that could only be acquired if you spent hundreds within a month. (medal system where you literally traded spent money for cards) With profit like that, I would argue that they could choose from any "payment processor" they like. If this issue is going to remain static, they also need to tell their audience that it will never change.

Many people out there are making decisions without having good information on the direction that this is going to go in the future. Some people play exclusively on dmm because they expect the issue to never be resolved. Some people play on both nutaku and dmm. Its actually way easier to keep quiet and just give up just like I stopped playing pero without saying anything weeks ago. By voicing out, I'm giving Nutaku a chance to improve the game in a way that might retain my interest even though it puts me in the unpleasant spotlight. More importantly point number 2. Stop telling me about child porn laws when one of the best solutions suggested months ago was to implement all age scenes for the young characters.

Vin668
12-30-2015, 10:34 PM
Their FB name?

soranokira
12-30-2015, 11:06 PM
Their FB name?

you do realize you dont need to sign in to read facebook posts right?

Vin668
12-31-2015, 02:41 AM
you do realize you dont need to sign in to read facebook posts right?
Cuz i'm alwyas use direct link to play, at that page dont have their fb :D

soranokira
12-31-2015, 02:54 AM
Cuz i'm alwyas use direct link to play, at that page dont have their fb :D

I'm trying to say that those payment processors don't need to sign in to read nutaku's FB and twitter posts. so asking for their FB name doesn't help you any.

Skulkraken
12-31-2015, 04:58 AM
As a customer who has paid hard earned money just for the possibility to unlock pieces of digital code (and sometimes not getting anything since that's the way gatcha works), might I suggest you work to find more accommodating payment processors?

For some of us, while we are not interested in underaged characters, simply don't like altered products and want a product without missing content.

Quite frankly, we pay you and you pay your payment processors. You should worried about what we want and your payment processors should be worried about what you want, not the other way around. If your payment processor has the manpower to be monitoring your facebook page, then they are wasting human resources and not doing an effective job. All they are being paid to do is just process the payments. I would argue that that's an even greater indication that they should be ditched for another payment processor.

So the only question I'm actually interested in is this : Are you working to find another payment processor or not? Why not? How long would it take?

From what I've seen on the other forums, it seems that the payment processors have already agreed to almost all of the things people have been clamoring for (Nutaku was apparently successful using the "1000 year old dragon" defense or whatever).

*However*, there is a possibility that they might have second thoughts about agreeing to it if they see messages about "lolis" plastered all over the Facebook and Twitter pages, which are significantly more public than these forums are. Stop using that trigger word where the processors are watching, and Nutaku will be able to make the changes you (and I, and pretty much everyone else) want, individual game devs notwithstanding.

Slurpee
12-31-2015, 06:29 AM
From what I've seen on the other forums, it seems that the payment processors have already agreed to almost all of the things people have been clamoring for (Nutaku was apparently successful using the "1000 year old dragon" defense or whatever).

*However*, there is a possibility that they might have second thoughts about agreeing to it if they see messages about "lolis" plastered all over the Facebook and Twitter pages, which are significantly more public than these forums are. Stop using that trigger word where the processors are watching, and Nutaku will be able to make the changes you (and I, and pretty much everyone else) want, individual game devs notwithstanding.

1) Well, first of all, I would like to clarify that I was not the one to post on facebook. Someone else more central to the community did. My first response was in this thread so you can't really ask me to stop doing something that I never did in the first place.

2) From the same forums that you were looking at, I saw names like ebiller or whatever. Did you even hear of these names before? They pretty much don't even have any reputation to destroy. Nobody even knows about them. We aren't talking about actual banks here. Payment processors are different from banks and are pretty small in the scheme of things.

3) Not to mention that how ridiculous it would be for them to have employees at work on NEW YEAR"S EVE looking at Nutaku's facebook. More like Nutaku are over rating their facebook.

4) Nutaku Aigis has been around for almost a year. Full disclosure. I started aigis on nutaku so long ago (many months ago) that I had time to quit all nutaku games and then come back to Aigis 6 or 7 months later. There were art issues then and there are art issues now. Back then, they gave the same vague verbal diarrhea about all everything is going to get better. Fast forward to now and its almost the same. There are always some people believing their half threat / half promises without real results. We will see about this time. But for the more than 9 months that Nutaku Aigis has existed, the same rubbish about getting approval has been repeated for months.

5) You need to get a better understanding. The "payment processors" cannot survive without attending to thousands of businesses. They don't have the individual manpower to come inspect or approve any particular company's stuff or artwork. These are the same guys that bill donations from blogs or wordpress. Do you know how much content they would have to inspect if they actually wanted to? They don't. The only people doing the approving is Nutaku. I highly doubt the payment processors are even a part of this process at all. They most likely act the same way to Nutaku that Nutaku acts to any customer. They don't have the time to communicate with Nutaku unless Nutaku submits a support ticket to them. More likely there is contractual wording that in the contract that Nutaku signed with the payment processor that binds them to self-censor. But Nutaku is 100% the approving authority. As I said before, Nutaku could easily get another payment processor without such terms in the contract. For more insight into this process, try setting up your own small website business.

6) Because of the way Nutaku worded their reply, some people seem to have the misconception that the payment processor is some kind of regulatory authority. No they aren't. Most of them are weaker competition to paypal

Eab1990
12-31-2015, 07:35 AM
While I agree that it's definitely on Nutaku that they should just find a different payment processor already so we don't have to deal with so much censorship bullshit, the Aigis devs have apparently already gone on record saying that they don't want to alter content or go out of their way to take the all-ages route on those characters.

So that's not an option. Not that I blame them for not wanting to do extra unnecessary work. They've done their part in finally getting us a more consistent event schedule. Now it's on Nutaku to figure out how to stop the censorship from gimping us.

Skulkraken
12-31-2015, 07:44 AM
1) Well, first of all, I would like to clarify that I was not the one to post on facebook. Someone else more central to the community did. My first response was in this thread so you can't really ask me to stop doing something that I never did in the first place.

2) From the same forums that you were looking at, I saw names like ebiller or whatever. Did you even hear of these names before? They pretty much don't even have any reputation to destroy. Nobody even knows about them. We aren't talking about actual banks here. Payment processors are different from banks and are pretty small in the scheme of things.

3) Not to mention that how ridiculous it would be for them to have employees at work on NEW YEAR"S EVE looking at Nutaku's facebook. More like Nutaku are over rating their facebook.

4) Nutaku Aigis has been around for almost a year. Full disclosure. I started aigis on nutaku so long ago (many months ago) that I had time to quit all nutaku games and then come back to Aigis 6 or 7 months later. There were art issues then and there are art issues now. Back then, they gave the same vague verbal diarrhea about all everything is going to get better. Fast forward to now and its almost the same. There are always some people believing their half threat / half promises without real results. We will see about this time. But for the more than 9 months that Nutaku Aigis has existed, the same rubbish about getting approval has been repeated for months.

5) You need to get a better understanding. The "payment processors" cannot survive without attending to thousands of businesses. They don't have the individual manpower to come inspect or approve any particular company's stuff or artwork. These are the same guys that bill donations from blogs or wordpress. Do you know how much content they would have to inspect if they actually wanted to? They don't. The only people doing the approving is Nutaku. I highly doubt the payment processors are even a part of this process at all. They most likely act the same way to Nutaku that Nutaku acts to any customer. They don't have the time to communicate with Nutaku unless Nutaku submits a support ticket to them. More likely there is contractual wording that in the contract that Nutaku signed with the payment processor that binds them to self-censor. But Nutaku is 100% the approving authority. As I said before, Nutaku could easily get another payment processor without such terms in the contract. For more insight into this process, try setting up your own small website business.

6) Because of the way Nutaku worded their reply, some people seem to have the misconception that the payment processor is some kind of regulatory authority. No they aren't. Most of them are weaker competition to paypal

On 1): I know full well that you weren't the one posting on their social media. I was referring to the possibility that people might continue to post there about it in the future.

On 3): I get more of a feeling that while those processors may not have actual people watching, they could very easily be using some sort of automated script to monitor what's posted. It's what I'd do if I was tasked with such a menial assignment, anyway. :p

On 4): Yes, I'm aware of Aigis getting flak about it. So have some of the other games. Given that the other games have begun to stop having those "art issues", I'm willing to wait a bit more to see if Aigis follows suit. I realize you might not be willing to wait that long. Can we agree to disagree if that's the case?

Slurpee
12-31-2015, 08:19 AM
On 1): I know full well that you weren't the one posting on their social media. I was referring to the possibility that people might continue to post there about it in the future.

On 3): I get more of a feeling that while those processors may not have actual people watching, they could very easily be using some sort of automated script to monitor what's posted. It's what I'd do if I was tasked with such a menial assignment, anyway. :p

On 4): Yes, I'm aware of Aigis getting flak about it. So have some of the other games. Given that the other games have begun to stop having those "art issues", I'm willing to wait a bit more to see if Aigis follows suit. I realize you might not be willing to wait that long. Can we agree to disagree if that's the case?

I'm willing to back down for the moment. I sound way more into this issue than I actually am. I actually don't like loli porn but I hate missing content even more and unfortunately the content is what it is. I'm the kind of person that keeps one copy of even the iron bandits, soldiers and archers etc.

For me Nutaku was a paid service because I bought gold in the past and I feel that people sometimes need to be able to hold Nutaku a little bit into account for the money they spend. (granted that I'm far from a big spender) If you're a completely free player then that's something else

chillinfar
12-31-2015, 01:13 PM
If you're worried about lack on content, mind in PPS, still stuck at stage 4 by months and card rush unbalanced the game. Only at this EG event they finally put a bit of balance, but the new year event (medals) fooled everyone again.

They already put a lot of paywalls on most cards, specially those past elite guards only available in SR gacha (including R cards, but never offered on their own events) and the fiasco with eGacha recently "fixed". Oh, and they removed several daily deals.

That's why i stopped to fund PPS, they are focusing the profit too bad, even against current paid users.

Tomaa
12-31-2015, 08:33 PM
There are just asking people to stop requesting "loli's", and with a good reason.
To any 3rd party looking at their facebook, people are asking them on official public chanel to provide child porn.
To a common person, word "loli" is synonym to "child porn". If course they dont want anything to do with that.

As for their payment processing company, you wont find better then "epoch" for this kind of content. But as every company, they have to respect the law and dont want to have anything to do with anything controversial.

Slurpee
12-31-2015, 09:12 PM
I was honestly hoping the thread would die there.

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I don't know why I even tried.
Is Nutaku some kind of God that no one can even make a frown at?
It's only content affiliated companies where customers are so addicted to their content providers that even other paying customers cannot hold the company to account without having to wade through a whole lot of loyal company soldiers

Just for the record once again, I didn't go to their facebook
and I didn't request lolis.

New year's resolution : Stop playing online games and live a healthier lifestyle.
-1 nutaku customer permanently.

and I know : Don't let the door hit me on the way out

soranokira
12-31-2015, 10:20 PM
Feel free to quit, but seriously, http://imgur.com/BIWteYF
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showpost.php?p=775610&postcount=14228
http://www.ulmf.org/bbs/showpost.php?p=775649&postcount=14246

and fyi, we're not saying you can't frown at nutaku. but doesn't mean you shouldn't try standing in their shoes. You don't work at nutaku, so you won't ever know their actual situation inside out. you're probably right to say that payment processors aren't likely to check up regularly, but doesn't mean they don't monitor their clients occasionally. businesses may cut off working partnerships if they deem the continuation of the relationship may harm them. Also, you never know whether they really have compliance teams in nutaku if they deem nutaku necessary to be paid more attention to. nothing in this world is fixed. Unlikely, but never absolute.

and tomaa was making a fair point which was in reply to the core topic of what nutakudev requested of us.

Slurpee
12-31-2015, 11:42 PM
edited because I tried to delete this post but failed.

Schverika
01-01-2016, 01:42 PM
Every time I see the argument "go find another payment processor", I find myself thinking "then do it yourself". If you don't like a company, find another one. If you can't find a replacement, make one. Be a rival company and either outperform or corner a niche. That's how the market works. Terminating relations with a company is absolutely ordinary and nothing to get sentimental over.

chillinfar
01-01-2016, 02:41 PM
Not so easy, remember Wikileaks boycott.

However, i agree with that. Epoch billing support sucks, they doesn't like money, i wanted to switch from Safetypay to other payment method and i was stuck like three months because purchases with Safetypay was did with raw cash, not credit/debit card.

And now i'm stuck again, perhaps i will need to use Paypal or debit to get Airu card in a few days.

I hope they consider to ADD other payment processors. I know who is Epoch owner: Mindgeek, owner of Brazzers and DP and their content is present on Nutaku (see Hellfire Girls), so isn't easy for Nutaku to break those ties.

Schverika
01-01-2016, 03:02 PM
I hope they consider to ADD other payment processors. I know who is Epoch owner: Mindgeek, owner of Brazzers and DP and their content is present on Nutaku (see Hellfire Girls), so isn't easy for Nutaku to break those ties.
That would explain a lot. I'm sure it's only the surface of the sticky situation.

Eab1990
01-01-2016, 11:52 PM
Every time I see the argument "go find another payment processor", I find myself thinking "then do it yourself". If you don't like a company, find another one. If you can't find a replacement, make one. Be a rival company and either outperform or corner a niche. That's how the market works. Terminating relations with a company is absolutely ordinary and nothing to get sentimental over.

Who is this even directed to?

It's not our obligation as customers to find better alternatives for Nutaku to get our money. It's their job to make it more appealing for us to spend.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 03:20 AM
It's not our obligation as customers to find better alternatives for Nutaku to get our money. It's their job to make it more appealing for us to spend.
No it's not obligation. Acting only out of obligation is not how you get the most out of the world. "It's somebody else's problem" doesn't automatically exclude you from solving it yourself (and reaping the benefits).

Eab1990
01-02-2016, 11:48 AM
No it's not obligation. Acting only out of obligation is not how you get the most out of the world. "It's somebody else's problem" doesn't automatically exclude you from solving it yourself (and reaping the benefits).

That's not how a business works. The "do it yourself" argument makes no sense, or there'd be no point to things like customer service. If we're dissatisfied, we find alternatives or we complain. Since viable alternatives don't exist yet (don't say DMM), I and others will complain and be justified in our complaints until we at least get some decent compromises on their end.

The consistent event schedule is a start, but that was something the Aigis devs were obligated to do (and not doing so likely made their profits suffer). The fact that we're still missing the basic Mischa/Nenya or us not getting Claire/Bella in this gold rush when we already have units like Phyllis is still cause for concern. As I said earlier, the Aigis devs made the decision that they don't want to do the extra work of taking the all-ages routes or giving us suitable replacements, so it's on Nutaku to work their way around that.

At any rate, this is just shifting the blame. It's ultimately still Nutaku's responsibility, especially since they're the ones with all the information. Implying that we should be looking for a solution when they won't even bother to elaborate on things like what truly constitutes loli in the payment processor's eyes is a fool's errand.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 12:39 PM
That's not how a business works.It's how the free market works. Entrepreneurship.


If we're dissatisfied, we find alternatives or we complain.You've just stated my point, right after saying "your point doesn't make sense". You misunderstood my point.


Since viable alternatives don't exist yetWe call this a "market opportunity".


I and others will complain and be justified in our complaints

It's ultimately still Nutaku's responsibilityOf course you're justified. Of course it's their responsibility. Letting that be an excuse to not do more hinders progress.

Your line of argument is based on rationalizing reasons why you shouldn't even think of becoming the viable alternative. What you should be doing is listing all the reasons why you personally can't make your own company and forge favourable relations with other companies to deliver the service that's in demand. There's plenty to put on that list.

Eab1990
01-02-2016, 01:08 PM
Your line of argument is based on rationalizing reasons why you shouldn't even think of becoming the viable alternative. What you should be doing is listing all the reasons why you personally can't make your own company and forge favourable relations with other companies to deliver the service that's in demand. There's plenty to put on that list.

Except no, your own logic is based on the faulty premise that "enjoying something but being dissatisfied with the service means you should be qualified to do it yourself."

I shouldn't need to list the reasons on how 99% of Nutaku's customer base likely doesn't fall under the combination of "qualified, motivated, AND having the proper time and resources" to be a competitor. You act like anyone can just start a company on the spot.

Yes, all our arguments and complaints likely get us nowhere, but that doesn't mean it's on the customers to take direct action as a competitor in order to improve things. That's such a giant leap in logic that isn't feasible for most of us, so the only reason I can see you bringing it up is to just shift the blame. Which brings us back to this.


It's how the free market works. Entrepreneurship.

Just because market competition is a healthy thing, doesn't mean that the entire population goes out to start businesses whenever they feel one business has wronged them. So again, pinning the blame on Nutaku's customer base when Nutaku doesn't satisfy them and saying we should be the ones to come up with a better solution is stupid. You can call it "taking the easy way out", but realistically speaking, that's how it is.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 01:39 PM
doesn't fall under the combination of "qualified, motivated, AND having the proper time and resources" to be a competitor. You act like anyone can just start a company on the spot.

That's such a giant leap in logic that isn't feasible for most of us

You can call it "taking the easy way out", but realistically speaking, that's how it is.
Excellent, you've finally said it out loud: "We're not good enough".

Now that it's acknowledged, the next question would be "well how do I become good enough? I'm powerless now, but must I stay that way for the rest of my life?" I bring this up because that's a more constructive line of thought. Granted, all you wanted was to vent your frustrations. Much as people complain, if they don't act afterwards it shows how little they actually care about the topic.


doesn't mean that the entire population goes out to start businesses whenever they feel one business has wronged them.
The restriction is due to lack of capability. Not because of some rule saying "only those who are obligated should act".

Eab1990
01-02-2016, 01:47 PM
Excellent, you've finally said it out loud: "We're not good enough".

Now that it's acknowledged, the next question would be "well how do I become good enough? I'm powerless now, but must I stay that way for the rest of my life?" I bring this up because that's a more constructive line of thought. Granted, all you wanted was to vent your frustrations. Much as people complain, if they don't act afterwards it shows how little they actually care about the topic.


The restriction is due to lack of capability. Not because of some rule saying "only those who are obligated should act".

What the hell? No, that's NOT the next question.

When people are dissatisfied with a game, they suggest the makers do something to improve the game, or move onto something else. They don't necessarily make their own game.

Dissatisfied with a restaurant? Complain to the owners for compensation, or have food somewhere else. Not start their own restaurant.

And so on. Extend this line of thought to every product/service in existence. The answer isn't simply "make your own".

The fault, again, lies not with us, therefore there ISN'T a need to improve ourselves. It's like you're asking every person to strive for perfection in all fields of life. Be some super-successful everyman. That's not reality. If everyone could make their own thing, there'd be no point to a business.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 02:01 PM
The fault, again, lies not with us, therefore there ISN'T a need to improve ourselves.Again with this rationalization of sloth. You seem obsessed with blame, fault and obligation. Those are not relevant in the argument I'm putting together. Stop looking for what isn't there in my words.


It's like you're asking every person to strive for perfection in all fields of life. Be some super-successful everyman. That's not reality.An attempt to dilute the 'target scope' by pointing out everybody else. The correct answer is "I am striving in a different field of life, therefore I choose not to strive in this one".

Eab1990
01-02-2016, 02:09 PM
Again with this rationalization of sloth. You seem obsessed with blame, fault and obligation. Those are not relevant in the argument I'm putting together. Stop looking for what isn't there in my words.

An attempt to dilute the 'target scope' by pointing out everybody else. The correct answer is "I am striving in a different field of life, therefore I choose not to strive in this one".

See, if you know that what you're asking for isn't feasible, then why bother mentioning it? That's even more pointless than just regular complaining.

This isn't about laziness. It's a fact that most people recognize they aren't qualified to take part in this (or any) business, therefore they choose not to devote resources to it, much like people don't just drop everything they have and take part in improving every underperforming business they come across.

Or even if they were qualified, they don't see it feasible to just snatch up Aigis from beneath Nutaku's grasp and improve it on their own accord or something. It's called being realistic. The only realistic choices for most people are to complain to Nutaku until they improve, or find their gaming/waifu fix elsewhere, whether it's DMM, other games, or waiting for another company to pick up the slack. Not "make my own localization company for DMM games."

I'm pretty sure you're just fucking with me at this point.

chillinfar
01-02-2016, 02:31 PM
What the hell? No, that's NOT the next question.

When people are dissatisfied with a game, they suggest the makers do something to improve the game, or move onto something else. They don't necessarily make their own game.

Dissatisfied with a restaurant? Complain to the owners for compensation, or have food somewhere else. Not start their own restaurant.

And so on. Extend this line of thought to every product/service in existence. The answer isn't simply "make your own".

The fault, again, lies not with us, therefore there ISN'T a need to improve ourselves. It's like you're asking every person to strive for perfection in all fields of life. Be some super-successful everyman. That's not reality. If everyone could make their own thing, there'd be no point to a business.


Nutaku "fixed" assists 1.5 months after the first shitstorm at 2nd EG (at 3rd EG) and they RECENTLY "fixed" the N cards fiasco in event gacha, which is even older than those claims (the Shuri Tsutsui fiasco).

Seems close to your point but one issue, those claims was correctly funded. Shitstorms about the medal campaign after 4th EG ended with a worse result, they keep the short time to obtain cards and technically still impossible for a free user or casual casher to get limited cards, because they claimed about the cost of cards, not availability.

Now they repeated the same fiasco with Airu card (campaign released after xmas instead to be in line with current event and again, by a short time).

So, users influx on the behavior of a business.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 03:36 PM
I'm pretty sure you're just fucking with me at this point.
My original post on this topic wasn't directed at you, but I do thank you for helping me hammer out the points. You could have walked away but you kept contributing.

My intent was to get (a subset of) people to realise they've taken up a sense of entitlement to unreasonable levels. Yes, people have a need to let off steam from pent up frustrations. Of course they're entitled, perhaps even obligated, to give feedback to companies about things they're not doing well. But what happens is a vulgar vomit of vicious vitriol - incivility.

At core, someone has set up a company to deliver something you care about. You have explicitly pointed out how that person is better than most people. It need not be said how many ways that company isn't living up to customer expectations. They are still doing much better than what most people could do themselves. Unreasonable entitlement is thinking a small (from a company's perspective) amount of money buys you the justification to verbally abuse[1] an entity more competent than you. Such an attitude is hiding from the core of the issue: frustration that you aren't in a position to do better yourself - i.e. refusal to acknowledge one's own powerlessness.


[1]That's not to say aggressive coercion has no place. Just that it doesn't require superficial disrespect to pull off.

Eab1990
01-02-2016, 03:44 PM
So you took a "blame the userbase even if the company is still partially at fault" approach? That's idiotic, but fine.

I don't see why you had to go through this roundabout method of pointing out entitlement now. Remember that the whole reason this thread came about was because Nutaku didn't properly inform us of the situation. We can only see that lolis are starting to get into other games, yet Aigis continues to lag behind with no Mischa/Nenya/Claire/Bella/etc. It took NutakuDev to post for us to know that they still have to be hush-hush about what content pushes the boundaries. So it was natural for the userbase to complain.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 03:54 PM
I see, so this is this phenomena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).


So you took a "blame the userbase even if the company is still partially at fault" approach?


You seem obsessed with blame, fault and obligation.



So it was natural for the userbase to complain.


Of course they're entitled, perhaps even obligated, to give feedback to companies about things they're not doing well.

Eab1990
01-02-2016, 04:07 PM
What does that have to do with anything? If it looks like one game is getting more lenient with censorship than another, it's going to draw criticism. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

What doesn't make sense is you trying to suggest that the userbase should do better. There are better ways of pointing out entitlement than using that fallacy.

Since we're doing the Wikipedia thing now, you seem to be invoking this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

While few (if any) of us are qualified to criticize how Nutaku handles its payment processors, that doesn't make the suggestion that they should find a better one any less justified. Particularly when the argument that other companies can localize loli material just fine keeps cropping up.

On that note, I think we've derailed this thread long enough. It's unlikely that the users will take your advice of magically improving themselves to make their own payment processor/localization company, so this conversation is clearly going nowhere. Hell, it's unlikely that people will lose any sense of entitlement either. It goes without saying that people will still complain. I just think the complaints were justified this time since the boundaries weren't (and still aren't) clear as to what does and doesn't get censored.

Schverika
01-02-2016, 04:18 PM
Yes, this is a good place to end. And yes, it's unlikely any readers will change themselves from this.

chillinfar
01-02-2016, 04:56 PM
What does that have to do with anything? If it looks like one game is getting more lenient with censorship than another, it's going to draw criticism. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

What doesn't make sense is you trying to suggest that the userbase should do better. There are better ways of pointing out entitlement than using that fallacy.

Since we're doing the Wikipedia thing now, you seem to be invoking this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

While few (if any) of us are qualified to criticize how Nutaku handles its payment processors, that doesn't make the suggestion that they should find a better one any less justified. Particularly when the argument that other companies can localize loli material just fine keeps cropping up.

On that note, I think we've derailed this thread long enough. It's unlikely that the users will take your advice of magically improving themselves to make their own payment processor/localization company, so this conversation is clearly going nowhere. Hell, it's unlikely that people will lose any sense of entitlement either. It goes without saying that people will still complain. I just think the complaints were justified this time since the boundaries weren't (and still aren't) clear as to what does and doesn't get censored.

If you noticed, my second complain isn't about lolis but why Epoch sucks, at point they put barriers to add money to Nutaku. I sent feedback to both sides, but the main fault is from Epoch due to their childish behavior (and supposedly, cash is "real money" unlike a debit/credit card, but treated me like shit)

Nutaku balance issues are other story. I put it as example because you talked about users.

Kotono
01-04-2016, 05:27 PM
As much as I'd like to be able to found my own payment processor site, It just isn't possible for me at this time. I looked into it and found that it comes with very large startup fees. Some of them being $10,000. And then to be able to sustain the site, I'd need quite a few customers.

Anonymous
01-05-2016, 12:24 AM
Be a proper modern businessman and crowdfund it

NutakuDev
01-05-2016, 03:31 PM
I would urge anyone who has strong opinions on this issue to look into the way that credit cards, banks, and processors handle transactions. For those of you who haven't heard of Operation Choke Point, please google it for an eye-opening look at how certain parties can exercise control over adult content they find 'objectionable' by tightening the screws on the financial industry.

To those of you who say, "switch processors", the number of processors (and banks) willing to work with adult content is not measured in the dozens. We don't get to shop around. There are four in North America.

The fact is that adult content in many countries is strictly regulated, not by laws, but by policies on what people are allowed to pay for.

It's clear from the conversation here that it's an issue that raises a lot of passion in people, as censorship rightly should. I sympathize with those who make arguments that we should do better. Ultimately, if there was an easy way to cut through this knot of regulation, we'd take it. Barring that option, we are resolved to make changes slowly, in the right direction, and take whatever opportunities are available to push the envelope.

That won't be enough for everyone, but I think most people will appreciate that we're working with what's possible, rather than what's ideal.

Vic47
01-06-2016, 02:36 AM
NutakuDev, speaking of censhorship, i suggest you got it already, that most Japanese hentai/ecchi games fans prefer less explicit cute content over more sexually explicit, but screwed up with...

Kotono
01-06-2016, 05:48 AM
View new post button attacks.
Critical hit! 9001 damage!
You die.
Continue from last save? (Y/N)

chillinfar
01-07-2016, 01:02 PM
I would urge anyone who has strong opinions on this issue to look into the way that credit cards, banks, and processors handle transactions. For those of you who haven't heard of Operation Choke Point, please google it for an eye-opening look at how certain parties can exercise control over adult content they find 'objectionable' by tightening the screws on the financial industry.

To those of you who say, "switch processors", the number of processors (and banks) willing to work with adult content is not measured in the dozens. We don't get to shop around. There are four in North America.

The fact is that adult content in many countries is strictly regulated, not by laws, but by policies on what people are allowed to pay for.

It's clear from the conversation here that it's an issue that raises a lot of passion in people, as censorship rightly should. I sympathize with those who make arguments that we should do better. Ultimately, if there was an easy way to cut through this knot of regulation, we'd take it. Barring that option, we are resolved to make changes slowly, in the right direction, and take whatever opportunities are available to push the envelope.

That won't be enough for everyone, but I think most people will appreciate that we're working with what's possible, rather than what's ideal.

You need a better talking with Wnu/Epoch. Getting stuck with one payment method (SafetyPay) because i used fresh cash instead of a card is stupid. Now i'm stuck again with SafetyPay and is impossible to unsuscribe via Epoch methods (doesn't allow to unsuscribe).

soranokira
01-07-2016, 08:02 PM
You need a better talking with Wnu/Epoch. Getting stuck with one payment method (SafetyPay) because i used fresh cash instead of a card is stupid. Now i'm stuck again with SafetyPay and is impossible to unsuscribe via Epoch methods (doesn't allow to unsuscribe).

I reckon you'd get faster and better response sending in tickets to address that issue.

chillinfar
01-07-2016, 10:53 PM
billing issues always are sent to both sides, but main flaw is from Epoch

Ericridge
01-15-2016, 02:06 AM
Vic47, China's on the phone. They're saying that they want their wall back.

Mark Nolo
01-16-2016, 11:58 AM
Active: ~10-15 hours every day, 30+ hours sometimes. GMT +3
I'm intrigued by the fact that you can be active 30+ hours some days.

Neko
01-17-2016, 04:26 AM
He probably meant over 30 coffees :D to be able to write like that.

chillinfar
01-17-2016, 09:29 AM
In soviet russia, time is wasting you.

MeaK
01-20-2016, 05:21 AM
It's clear from the conversation here that it's an issue that raises a lot of passion in people, as censorship rightly should. I sympathize with those who make arguments that we should do better. Ultimately, if there was an easy way to cut through this knot of regulation, we'd take it. Barring that option, we are resolved to make changes slowly, in the right direction, and take whatever opportunities are available to push the envelope.

That won't be enough for everyone, but I think most people will appreciate that we're working with what's possible, rather than what's ideal.
Thank you so much for this post. Your efforts to increase character diversity are definitely noticed and greatly appreciated.

I'll make sure to go back and inform the people I previously warned about censorship (which I attributed to malice/moral gatekeeping because I didn't know about the payment processor situation) about this. I apologize for jumping to conclusions earlier!