Thread: [Event 28] Crucible of Combat vs The Demon Envy (Union Event)

Well, attack buffs are pretty lousy because they're usually adding to assault and thus their relative impact shrinks the more developed you are.
Defense related buffs (be it defense buffs, damage cuts, reflects, or element tolerance buffs) tend to maintain their relative impact. They're held back by their uptime being defined in turns. But they do come in handy for mitigating giant spikes in damage.
It's just that it's easy to dismiss them and be fine with just atk down + element advantage because it's not too often that we actually see GIGANTIC instances of damage in the current state of the game.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

-- Defense related buffs (be it -- damage cuts, reflects, or element tolerance buffs) tend to maintain their relative impact. --

These are very useful, yes. They're effectively the same thing though, so they stack properly. Which adds to their value.

I find it difficult to imagine +Def buff being useful, though. Basically you'd need to double the gains from them across the board, plus scatter the different buffs to A and B. Like Andromeda and Amaterasu stacking to 40%+60% thus halving damage taken.

You seem to be approaching these things as a either/or proposition. You can have both/all of them together. They all stack.

Why bother with DEF up when stacking ATK down mitigates damage far more effectively? Jorm's -10% ATK debuff mitigates more damage for me than a DEF buff of 30% would for you. It also lasts longer.

But not properly. If you've already slapped the usual amount of -Atk on the enemy, you don't get as much gains from +Def.

Also, you can't bring 50 Hime into one fight. You need to pick your abilities, and that means that you effectively avoid +Def whenever you can - so that you can actually useful abilities, such as damage cuts or -Atk debuffs. Only in rare cases like Amaterasu do find yourself with a +Def ability... and even then, it doesn't really do much for you.

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

Why bother with DEF up when stacking ATK down mitigates damage far more effectively? Jorm's -10% ATK debuff mitigates more damage for me than a DEF buff of 30% would for you. It also lasts longer.

Yea, that -10% atk down is better than a def buff, when you're picking one or the other, but not both.
How often do you have to pick between the two, versus how often you can have both?
Why are you guys framing these mechanics as in competition with each other?

Ok, given what I know of your understanding of the damage formula, the notable distinction you make between damage cuts and defense buffs doesn't really make much sense to me.
If you're not setting up to stack damage cuts, then in practice, a +30% def buff basically is a 23% damage cut, except longer duration. That's not so significantly worse than the higher end damage cuts to the point that justifies 'damage cuts are useful, but defense buffs are garbage'. There isn't exactly a big gap between the two until you deliberately start stacking up damage cut/reflect/element tolerance.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Yea, that -10% atk down is better than a def buff, when you're picking one or the other, but not both.
How often do you have to pick between the two, versus how often you can have both?
Why are you guys framing these mechanics as in competition with each other?

Because a difficult solo encounter requires a hefty array of skills, and bringing one skill means not bringing something else. Bring Amaterasu, and you probably aren't bringing Sol. Bring Andromeda, and you don't have Joan. Reaching debuff caps (once implemented) and having overdrive gauge extension on hand means you typically have a grand total of 6 skill slots that are taken. And we haven't even talked about healing and utility skills like cleanse and dispel yet, nor the practical difficulty of assembling a group (all or mostly the same element) with the right combination of those core 6 skills.

Right, and the full answer to that will depend on the encounter combined with the hand one is given.

I'm not saying that defense buffs are the headline reason to go with a particular kamihime. I'm saying that they're something that'd be listed in a kamihime's pros instead of cons. The way Slashley talks about them makes them seem like a fucking negative or at best a neutral.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Since it depends strongly on how it is calculated. After or during -Atk. As in, does Sanahtlig's completely-fair-and-I'm-not-jealous-at-all -70% Atk, does he become immune if he got +60% Def or not?

The short answer is 'no'. You can see exactly how these parameters interact in the Temporary Effects Calculator of my Toolbox, 'Damage received' section. I prefer 'Hits til Death' as a readout of comparative effectiveness.