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View Full Version : Solomon's Ring damage is affected by Eidolon bonuses



President Ramu
03-11-2017, 10:56 PM
I know this isn't game-breaking or anything and she's still clearly trash (...for now), but I thought you guys might find it interesting.

I've been using Solomon with my mostly Wind Element team (Gaia/Shiva/Hermes/Nike), and noticed that with her skill "Solomon Ring" which does an attack in each element, the elemental damage is affected by the Eidolon(s) you have equipped. For example, when I'm just doing an Anzu run and thus have no "[Element] Attack +40%" effect, the damage is about 1500 per each element's attack with a slight decrease for the opponent's strong element and increase for the opponent's weak element. But when I have a particular element's Eidolon equipped, say with "Water ATK +40%", no matter what element I have equipped to Solomon her Solomon's Ring skill damage goes up during the part of the skill where she casts that element.

Why is this interesting? Because several Eidolons, like Behemoth (+30% to Wind/Water/Light) or Takemikazuchi (+30% to Wind/Thunder/Dark) increase multiple attributes at once. And during Solomon's ring, ALL of those elements are buffed as well.

It's still early days so I haven't taken the time to spreadsheet up how much different that is than just a straight single element increase on a single element skill, or written up a 10 page treatise on how this totally makes her OP. But it's a neat effect and I figured since very few people play Solomon they might not be aware of it.

sanahtlig
03-11-2017, 11:00 PM
Exactly as expected.

So...?

President Ramu
03-11-2017, 11:04 PM
You really shouldn't take that tone. I'm honestly surprised you even know who Solomon is, seeing as by your own testimony everything you haven't personally experienced doesn't exist and all.

The POINT is that very few characters can take advantage of multi-element bonuses. While an Eidolon with multiple bonuses can be good for a team that isn't single-element, it's rare if not unique to Solomon only that she gets ALL of the bonuses regardless of what element she herself is. It's worth making note of.

sanahtlig
03-11-2017, 11:12 PM
You really shouldn't take that tone. I'm honestly surprised you even know who Solomon is, seeing as by your own testimony everything you haven't personally experienced doesn't exist and all.

The POINT is that very few characters can take advantage of multi-element bonuses. While an Eidolon with multiple bonuses can be good for a team that isn't single-element, it's rare if not unique to Solomon only that she gets ALL of the bonuses regardless of what element she herself is. It's worth making note of.

If I understand correctly (and this is just a re-discovery of basic game mechanics), a 30% bonus to 3/6 elements would equate to a 15% damage bonus overall (single eidolon). You could've gotten a 40% bonus with typical skills and a matching eidolon, plus some other useful effect (like a 20% HP bonus). Furthermore, for weapon skills, you'd get 1/6 of the effect, so a grid of ten assault skillLV6 SRs would give you a 10% bonus instead of 60%. That's pretty terrible, and is exactly why Solomon is regarded as not useful.

But congratulations on your discovery, I suppose?

President Ramu
03-11-2017, 11:41 PM
If I understand correctly (and this is just a re-discovery of basic game mechanics), a 30% bonus to 3/6 elements would equate to a 15% damage bonus overall (single eidolon). You could've gotten a 40% bonus with typical skills and a matching eidolon, plus some other useful effect (like a 20% HP bonus). Furthermore, for weapon skills, you'd get 1/6 of the effect, so a grid of ten assault skillLV6 SRs would give you a 10% bonus instead of 60%. That's pretty terrible, and is exactly why Solomon is regarded as not useful.

But congratulations on your discovery, I suppose?

You don't understand correctly, because yet again your "theoretical" and incorrect knowledge of the game has led you to making further wrong statements based on your wrong assumptions. Seriously, do you even play this game?

- Attribute damage bonuses are not the same as straight attack bonuses. Remember that whole conversation in the other thread about how "Character Eidolons aren't as good as Element Eidolons"? So your "some other useful effect" statement is wrong on the face of it, because it's not relevant here.

- Additionally, as Solomon's Ring's elements are independent of Solomon's Element, you don't have to choose. My Wind-Element Solomon is already getting the 30% bonus from Behemoth, Solomon's Ring is getting a separate bonus to two other elements that the Wind element himes on my team don't get to take advantage of.

- My entire grid is Wind element weapons with Level 5-10 Storm Assault, but Wind damage isn't affected by them during Solomon's Ring. I'd have been happy to explain that to you if you had asked instead of assuming.

So really, seriously, either play the game or ask questions in good faith. Because this is starting to get out of hand.

sanahtlig
03-11-2017, 11:58 PM
You don't understand correctly, because yet again your "theoretical" and incorrect knowledge of the game has led you to making further wrong statements based on your wrong assumptions. Seriously, do you even play this game?

- Attribute damage bonuses are not the same as straight attack bonuses. Remember that whole conversation in the other thread about how "Character Eidolons aren't as good as Element Eidolons"? So your "some other useful effect" statement is wrong on the face of it, because it's not relevant here.

- Additionally, as Solomon's Ring's elements are independent of Solomon's Element, you don't have to choose. My Wind-Element Solomon is already getting the 30% bonus from Behemoth, Solomon's Ring is getting a separate bonus to two other elements that the Wind element himes on my team don't get to take advantage of.

- My entire grid is Wind element weapons with Level 5-10 Storm Assault, but Wind damage isn't affected by them during Solomon's Ring. I'd have been happy to explain that to you if you had asked instead of assuming.

So really, seriously, either play the game or ask questions in good faith. Because this is starting to get out of hand.
Feel free to illustrate these cumulative bonuses in a spreadsheet. Either my understanding of mechanics is flawed, or your explanation in this post is misleading / inaccurate. The JP wiki goes into some detail on this skill and how it interacts with elemental bonuses.

Although I can tell your pride is simmering, asking 'so what'--novelty, significance--is actually a standard question to a junior scientist presenting their findings. If you can't handle a basic question like that without going on a tirade, then you're not cut out for research.

And no, I didn't single you out for that question because I hate you. I'm not petty like that. I'm unsure the reciprocal is true, however.

President Ramu
03-12-2017, 12:46 AM
This has nothing to do with my "pride" and everything to do with you continually spouting misinformation.

Everything you post is suspect, because it continually shows you have no grasp of how the game actually works. You don't know the characters, you don't know how the systems interact, you just guess based on something you think you read on the JP wiki and then extrapolate from there. "Even a junior scientist" knows better than to guess, let alone argue against empirical data using nonsense you came up with in a vacuum.

I'm not making an entire spreadsheet to prove you wrong, how about you just go into the game and test literally anything you've said and come back with some real data? You're not the only person who reads the wiki, but I'd assert that either you're not as good at math or reading Japanese as the people who do.

sanahtlig
03-12-2017, 01:16 AM
I'm not making an entire spreadsheet to prove you wrong, how about you just go into the game and test literally anything you've said and come back with some real data?

Because you're the one who cares and I don't? Why do you even bother posting all this useless trash-talk? I'm interested in game mechanics, but not so interested in this peacock strutting you get into whenever I post in a topic you're participating in. If you have something useful to share, surely you can do it without making silly, irrelevant accusations about me in literally every thread?


"Even a junior scientist" knows better than to guess, let alone argue against empirical data using nonsense you came up with in a vacuum.
I 'guess' because I'm confident that if I'm wrong, someone will point it out. That's the whole point of a discussion forum. There's no shame in being wrong, and I welcome challenges to my viewpoints. That's the difference in values between me and you.

An expert isn't allowed to be wrong because they're relied on as a source of information. Fortunately, I'm no expert on this game, so I can say whatever I want with little consequence--except for earning the ire of people like you, I suppose? I wonder though if your perception is more of a confirmation bias--you expect me to be wrong, so you interpret ambiguous cues in a way that pins any misunderstanding on me. I've seen a few examples of that.

I suppose that's neither here nor there though. But uh, congratulations on derailing your own topic.

dreadpin
03-12-2017, 01:57 AM
just wondering.... if anyone picking solomon just for sake of master bonus (abilities dmg+6%), my arthur and dark amon skills are hitting 40-50k... so 6% worth it?

President Ramu
03-12-2017, 02:09 AM
I 'guess' because I'm confident that if I'm wrong, someone will point it out. That's the whole point of a discussion forum. There's no shame in being wrong, and I welcome challenges to my viewpoints. That's the difference in values between me and you.




Furthermore, for weapon skills, you'd get 1/6 of the effect, so a grid of ten assault skillLV6 SRs would give you a 10% bonus instead of 60%.

This is wrong. This is an entirely wrong statement. You say it like it's true, but it's not. And if I didn't already know that you're full of shit, I'd believe you.

That's the problem here, you're not asking, you're telling. And what you're telling is false. If you want to pretend you're just "having a discussion", at least have the good sense to hedge your bets and not contradict yourself on the same page.

sanahtlig
03-12-2017, 03:46 AM
This is wrong. This is an entirely wrong statement. You say it like it's true, but it's not. And if I didn't already know that you're full of shit, I'd believe you.

That's the problem here, you're not asking, you're telling. And what you're telling is false. If you want to pretend you're just "having a discussion", at least have the good sense to hedge your bets and not contradict yourself on the same page.

And that's why you're an unreliable narrator (see what I did there?). Because I prefaced all of that with:

If I understand correctly

And that's ignoring the fact that you haven't demonstrated your point at all (great job!) because you've been so busy demonizing me that the actual point of the topic slipped your mind.

- - - Updated - - -

Your point finally dawned on me, and I updated my explanation of the relative uselessness of Solomon as follows:

Solomon is passed over as an attacker because Solomon's Ring--her main damage ability--doesn't get the full benefit from eidolon elemental damage bonuses. It's very easy to achieve an 80% eidolon elemental damage bonus for your team element, so Solomon's Ring and thus Solomon herself lags behind in damage once you acquire SSR eidolons with elemental damage bonuses that match your team element (first 3 events). One workaround is to use eidolons that provide a character-based elemental bonus instead (which fully stacks with Solomon's Ring), but that lowers the damage output of your entire team, especially at higher weapon skill levels, and thus isn't a good trade-off.
Solomon is a fringe case with damage abilities that don't match her weapon element. Nonetheless, my understanding of the damage calculation was mistaken (specifically, that weapon skills buff characters of a given element, not elemental damage), so it's good that this fringe case exposed that. I'm surprised no one called me on that before.

Thus while your explanation was useful to me personally (because I fundamentally misunderstood the damage calculation), it probably isn't news to anyone else who's read up on game mechanics.

Unregistered
03-12-2017, 11:26 AM
You're re-inventing the wheel. Japanese wiki already has sufficient information to piece together what one should expect from Solomon. She scales poorly into late game because of the difference in how character bonuses and element bonuses interact with assault skill stacking.

sanahtlig
03-12-2017, 11:35 AM
You're re-inventing the wheel. Japanese wiki already has sufficient information to piece together what one should expect from Solomon. She scales poorly into late game because of the difference in how character bonuses and element bonuses interact with assault skill stacking.
It appears that character bonuses and assault skill bonuses fully stack with Solomon's Ring. Element bonuses (from eidolons) only partially stack. Otherwise I agree. The observed results are predicted in their entirety by the damage formula posted on the JP wiki, and thus are not novel.

VortexMagus
03-12-2017, 12:12 PM
So in theory you could build a team with Solomon and Takemikazuchi/Behemoth that enabled you to run tricolor Kamihimes with full damage AND in the process get significant bonuses to Solomon's damage. That's interesting, and maybe even relevant if you had Takemikazuchi and a bunch of powerful Kamihimes of her three elements (or if you had Behemoth and a mix of powerful kamis of her elements), but that seems like a really niche area to me, and I think most people would still be better off running Andromeda or Mordred in their teams.

Plus to maximize the tri-element Kamis you'd need a friends list full of people using the same Eidolon, which is pretty rare.

sanahtlig
03-12-2017, 12:43 PM
So in theory you could build a team with Solomon and Takemikazuchi/Behemoth that enabled you to run tricolor Kamihimes with full damage AND in the process get significant bonuses to Solomon's damage. That's interesting, and maybe even relevant if you had Takemikazuchi and a bunch of powerful Kamihimes of her three elements (or if you had Behemoth and a mix of powerful kamis of her elements), but that seems like a really niche area to me, and I think most people would still be better off running Andromeda or Mordred in their teams.

Plus to maximize the tri-element Kamis you'd need a friends list full of people using the same Eidolon, which is pretty rare.
I think you're overestimating the usefulness of the triple-element buff. Very few people will have more than one copy of one of these triple-element eidolons, for a cumulative bonus of 15% per eidolon (30% divided by 2 because it only applies to 3/6 of the elements in Solomon's Ring). But everyone will soon be using double-element eidolons that would provide a bonus of 13.3% (40/(2/6)). Not to mention that if you're using one of those triple-element eidolons yourself, it will likely be level-capped at 40, reducing your entire team's overall stats. Meanwhile, you could've been using a character with attack abilities that get the full 40% buff instead.

President Ramu
03-12-2017, 03:52 PM
The observed results are predicted in their entirety by the damage formula posted on the JP wiki, and thus are not novel.


THEN MOVE THE FUCK ON SO PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO DISCUSS IT CAN WITHOUT YOU SHITTING EVERYWHERE.

Unregistered
03-12-2017, 08:22 PM
So in theory you could build a team with Solomon and Takemikazuchi/Behemoth that enabled you to run tricolor Kamihimes with full damage AND in the process get significant bonuses to Solomon's damage. That's interesting, and maybe even relevant if you had Takemikazuchi and a bunch of powerful Kamihimes of her three elements (or if you had Behemoth and a mix of powerful kamis of her elements), but that seems like a really niche area to me, and I think most people would still be better off running Andromeda or Mordred in their teams.

Plus to maximize the tri-element Kamis you'd need a friends list full of people using the same Eidolon, which is pretty rare.

Tri-element is kind of a low ceiling thing. Let's say you have Takemikazuchi/Behemoth and you select another of the same eidolon as support. Great, an instant 60-100% boost to attack to a three-element team! But then the question is, how do you grow further in power from there?
Go over every avenue of power growth in this game and consider how applicable it is to a particular idea. Sooner or later you think about Assault skills. Then you realize that there's a finite X number of Assault skills equipped at once that eventually have to be divided up three ways for a tri-element strategy. You'd only have to divide your weapon grid in half in a dual-element strategy, or not divide at all in a single element strategy.

The value in multi-element buffs is when the gacha hates you and you don't even have the pieces to run single element in the first place. Or if you can't even fully run dual-element yet. When your concern is more about the floor than the ceiling.

President Ramu
03-12-2017, 10:51 PM
Tri-element is kind of a low ceiling thing. Let's say you have Takemikazuchi/Behemoth and you select another of the same eidolon as support. Great, an instant 60-100% boost to attack to a three-element team! But then the question is, how do you grow further in power from there?
Go over every avenue of power growth in this game and consider how applicable it is to a particular idea. Sooner or later you think about Assault skills. Then you realize that there's a finite X number of Assault skills equipped at once that eventually have to be divided up three ways for a tri-element strategy. You'd only have to divide your weapon grid in half in a dual-element strategy, or not divide at all in a single element strategy.

The value in multi-element buffs is when the gacha hates you and you don't even have the pieces to run single element in the first place. Or if you can't even fully run dual-element yet. When your concern is more about the floor than the ceiling.

I originally planned to run the squad I mentioned previously as strictly Wind element, but the main issue I ran into was that Zephyrus is not a good healer compared to Nike (and I didn't have Zephyrus yet anyway). So I had the one Water interloper slotted in, then magically the gacha gave me Shiva on the second jewel gacha pull and it seemed crazy to bench her just to keep the theme going. However, with Behemoth both Wind and Water are covered (and Light if I happened to run across a Sol by some miracle) so I don't have to up-end my entire friend list.

In 6 months maybe we'll all have all of the Eidolons and SSR himes and we construct our team like a salad bar, but for right now losing 10% from my main element to give 30% to the Water members of my team is more than worth it.

The Assault Problem is indeed super real though, eventually I'll probably replace Shiva on the Wind squad and hopefully have enough Water to branch her off. If it was still just one non-Wind Element user slotted in as a Healer though (Lightning and Dark likely have this issue too), I don't feel I'm losing too much letting her just focus on healing and letting her damage fall by the wayside.