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View Full Version : The value of stacking Def DWN (with damage calculator)



sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 10:55 AM
Damage calculator (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PhfOAQk6EyK5l33ux_C4T-cexVIQp6D-_Hbd-OO1OmQ/edit#gid=1624142911) (browse to the tab)

I created a general damage calculator which accepts a variety of modifiers including HP, ATK, DEF, and DMG (reduction), and outputs the modified damage and--most importantly--how this affects the hits til death (HTD). Hits to death is a stat I came up with that's a bit more intuitive than effective HP, but serves the same purpose. For example, imagine a scenario where you could reduce incoming damage by 90%. 5% more damage reduction on top of that seems paltry, but it actually DOUBLES your survivability.

One notable result is that defense down amplifies damage far more potently than an equivalent percentage of character attack up. 50% attack up increases your damage by <50% (because it's additive with assault skill). Defense down acts as a direct multiplier; 50% defense down translates to a 100% damage increase. Furthermore, the benefit increases as you near the cap of 50%: 49->50% defense down provides a nearly 4% damage increase!

Defense down is thus extremely valuable, and reaching the cap is quite difficult, even in a raid situation. Most teams will max at -40% (20% each from type A and type B debuffs), which provides a 67% damage increase. You can use the calculator I've provided to calculate how much your team would benefit by switching in different skills, especially on your soul.

Losticus
04-15-2017, 02:58 PM
Do you know how much Def down the Yamata no Orochi eidolon does?

sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 03:06 PM
Do you know how much Def down the Yamata no Orochi eidolon does?
-12% according to the JP wiki. The considerable trade-off in base stats could be worth the increased DMG at high levels of defense down (30%+)--if it lands. And certainly your raid group would benefit greatly.

Unregistered
04-15-2017, 03:24 PM
So the Ambush skill (20% A-frame), Amaterasu (20% B-frame), and Yamata no Orochi hits max? Sounds awesome, I wonder how much stats it would take to replace her. Who has C-frame Def down?

Also feel free to correct me on any of that, I think I got it right but i'm not positive.

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Cthulhu and Thanatos have C-frame def down

felix
04-15-2017, 03:38 PM
Yamata no Orochi at max LB has 1488 atk, and considering that event eidolons atk ranges from 1200 (Phoenix sux...) up tp 2100 it might not be as big of a trade off, if you can max lb Yamata no orochi and if you dont have max LB gacha SSR summons. Then trade off is quite big. But hey, my bet is that they will eventually introduce event summon with def down XD

sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 04:14 PM
So the Ambush skill (20% A-frame), Amaterasu (20% B-frame), and Yamata no Orochi hits max? Sounds awesome, I wonder how much stats it would take to replace her. Who has C-frame Def down?

Also feel free to correct me on any of that, I think I got it right but i'm not positive.
C-type defense down debuffs don't yet exist in our version.

Other options to reach 50% defense down besides Yamata no Orochi include C-type debuffs from the kamihime Cthulu and Thanatos, the Burst effect from the SSR weapons Mag Shureft and Guilty Wrath, and the Full-Burst modifier to Snipe from Dantalion's personal weapon Syaruru Blast.

felix
04-15-2017, 04:39 PM
C-type defense down debuffs don't yet exist in our version.

Other options to reach 50% defense down besides Yamata no Orochi include C-type debuffs from the kamihime Cthulu and Thanatos, the Burst effect from the SSR weapons Mag Shureft and Guilty Wrath, and the Full-Burst modifier to Snipe from Dantalion's personal weapon Syaruru Blast.

You are forgetting latest DMM gacha SSR summon (Fraserberg or w/e its called) that has -20% on Eidolon-only frame, but we will get it in about a year or so so... yeah.

P.S. Will it be too much to ask for an Atk DWN calculator? Im interested to know if atk down debuff also scales better at 40%->50%...

sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 06:32 PM
P.S. Will it be too much to ask for an Atk DWN calculator? Im interested to know if atk down debuff also scales better at 40%->50%...
I'll look into making an Effective HP calculator. That seems more generalizable.

Unregistered
04-15-2017, 06:42 PM
Oh, Fraserberg is supposed to be Hraesvelgr.

sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 07:45 PM
I added a general damage calculator to the same tab, which accepts a variety of modifiers including HP, ATK, DEF, and DMG (reduction), and outputs the modified damage and--most importantly--how this affects the hits til death (HTD). This is a stat I came up with that's a bit more intuitive than effective HP, but serves the same purpose. For example, imagine a scenario where you could reduce incoming damage by 90%. 5% more damage reduction on top of that seems paltry, but it actually DOUBLES your survivability.

felix
04-15-2017, 08:30 PM
if i understand correctly, negative value of "ATK up" = atk debuff value, while "DMG modifier" = atk buff on enemy?

sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 08:40 PM
if i understand correctly, negative value of "ATK up" = atk debuff value, while "DMG modifier" = atk buff on enemy?
DMG modifier is the positive expression of 'damage reduction'. Likewise, ATK up is the positive expression of ATK down. If you want negatives, add a negative sign. I wanted the stats to all be expressed in the same direction for consistency.

felix
04-15-2017, 08:58 PM
Hm, it appears that dmg cut, like 40% from Joan's "Voice of god" is less potent if you have atk debuffs stacked on enemy... Speaking of Joan, how does her Def bonuses apply to this formula? Is that a direct -23% to DMG modifier? +23 to DEF up? (Im trying to figure out who is more potent at keeping your party alive at high dmg bosses, like blue raids? Andromeda with a flat 1600 heal or Joan with all def bonuses, dmg cut and regen...)

sanahtlig
04-15-2017, 09:28 PM
Hm, it appears that dmg cut, like 40% from Joan's "Voice of god" is less potent if you have atk debuffs stacked on enemy
Attack down debuffs and damage reduction interact multiplicately--that is, they're equally effective separate or together. So there should be no loss in potency.

Apply defense up buff bonuses to the Defender DEF up box. Assist defensive passives are additive with DEF up buffs (for that character only). Passive soul bonuses to DEF are multiplicative and I haven't factored that into the calculation. Doesn't seem useful overall since most of the time you care about your weakest link, not a single character stacked with damage reduction bonuses.

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Also, make sure you're using the latest version of the spreadsheet. I'm continuously revising it, and early on there was an error in the damage reduction calculation that could have resulted in your observation about Voice of God.

VortexMagus
04-15-2017, 11:29 PM
Just so we're clear on how these debuffs apply: you can have one def down debuff from kamihime and one def down debuff from eidolon sources, right? And they will overlap? But you can't have multiple eidolon def downs, or multiple kami defense downs?

felix
04-15-2017, 11:58 PM
Just so we're clear on how these debuffs apply: you can have one def down debuff from kamihime and one def down debuff from eidolon sources, right? And they will overlap? But you can't have multiple eidolon def downs, or multiple kami defense downs?

You can have one eidolon debuff on top of everything else, and eidolon buffs cant stack with each other, but when it comes to kamihime, its not so easy. There are 3 "frames", or "windows" for debuffs, A-frame (usually skill that affect only one stat, like atk down) B-frame (usually skill that affect multiple stats, like atk and def down) and C-frame (rare frame, that is an "exception" and should be memorized, who has this kind of debuffs) A-frame can be stacked with B-frame, and C-frame, but not with another A-frame. B-frame can be stacked with A and C, but not B. So potentially you can have A, B, C and Eidolon debuffs stacked together, but in practice theres a cap on debuffs (50%) so theres no reason to go overboard.

sanahtlig
04-16-2017, 12:12 AM
You can have one eidolon debuff on top of everything else, and eidolon buffs cant stack with each other, but when it comes to kamihime, its not so easy. There are 3 "frames", or "windows" for debuffs, A-frame (usually skill that affect only one stat, like atk down) B-frame (usually skill that affect multiple stats, like atk and def down) and C-frame (rare frame, that is an "exception" and should be memorized, who has this kind of debuffs) A-frame can be stacked with B-frame, and C-frame, but not with another A-frame. B-frame can be stacked with A and C, but not B. So potentially you can have A, B, C and Eidolon debuffs stacked together, but in practice theres a cap on debuffs (50%) so theres no reason to go overboard.
'Frame' is just a Google Translate-ism. There's really no reason to propagate it as if it was an exact technical term. But yes, this explanation is accurate.

VortexMagus
04-16-2017, 03:45 PM
So Gawain's ambush and Satan's single target defense down skill are both A-Frame skills and can be stacked on top of cybele's skill, which is attack/def down and B-frame, correct? And Mordred's attack/def down is also B-frame, yes?

sanahtlig
04-16-2017, 04:06 PM
So Gawain's ambush and Satan's single target defense down skill are both A-Frame skills and can be stacked on top of cybele's skill, which is attack/def down and B-frame, correct? And Mordred's attack/def down is also B-frame, yes?
There's a link in the spreadsheet with a link to the Japanese table of defense-down debuffs categorized by type (A, B, C, eidolon/burst effect). Even if you can't read the text, you can click on each link and see the picture of the character the skill belongs to.

CBW
04-17-2017, 03:29 AM
'Frame' is just a Google Translate-ism. There's really no reason to propagate it as if it was an exact technical term. But yes, this explanation is accurate.
I don't know how this particular translation went down, but frame is probably shortened something equivalent to "framework". Not windows...

It's probably more accurate/appropriate in English to call them A-Class, B-Class, etc., short for "Classification."

sanahtlig
04-17-2017, 08:05 AM
I don't know how this particular translation went down, but frame is probably shortened something equivalent to "framework". Not windows...

It's probably more accurate/appropriate in English to call them A-Class, B-Class, etc., short for "Classification."
Yes, they can be thought of as categories. So 'class' or 'type' are appropriate. My point was simply that if a term is so awkward you have to explain the choice to your audience to avoid confusion, you probably could've chosen a better term--all the moreso if you're just parroting something someone else parroted from Google Translate. The original JP itself probably isn't even an official term, and therefore there's no obligation to be faithful to it.

CBW
04-17-2017, 05:45 PM
Yes, they can be thought of as categories. So 'class' or 'type' are appropriate. My point was simply that if a term is so awkward you have to explain the choice to your audience to avoid confusion, you probably could've chosen a better term--all the moreso if you're just parroting something someone else parroted from Google Translate. The original JP itself probably isn't even an official term, and therefore there's no obligation to be faithful to it.

Agreed.890

Losticus
04-19-2017, 07:39 AM
Not exactly about Def Down, but just damage mechanics.
How does attack skill ups from the weapon grid apply towards damage? Is it multiplicative with all their damage, when is it applied, etc. And also, how does a weapons attack stat add in?
I'm curious as to when its worth it to use an on element weapon vs a non-element weapon with superior stats.

sanahtlig
04-19-2017, 07:56 AM
Not exactly about Def Down, but just damage mechanics.
How does attack skill ups from the weapon grid apply towards damage? Is it multiplicative with all their damage, when is it applied, etc. And also, how does a weapons attack stat add in?
I'm curious as to when its worth it to use an on element weapon vs a non-element weapon with superior stats.
You can put your numbers into my assault and eidolon effects calculator and find out!

Losticus
04-19-2017, 01:51 PM
You can put your numbers into my assault and eidolon effects calculator and find out!

Ah, I didn't know it factored those in! Thank you, I shall.