Mono vs. Rainbow Grid

[nonsensei]

I've been wondering for a while now about people arguing here & there about rainbow & monogrids, but never seen an example presenting actual values on it. So when I was asked someone which to choose, I thought I might as well be the one to overview an example.
I used my current dark monogrid for it & built a rainbow grid focusing on maximizing atk value while keeping dark SSRs.
I'm going to calculate with SL10 monogrids compared to SL20 rainbow grids, as making a monogrid for each element is much more costly than keeping one rainbow grid that might alternate only a little bit for each element.
It should be noted that this is just a calculation of my own grid. There might be rainbow grids with better values or monogridders might prefer less defender weapon on their grid.

Also it should be mentioned that mono & rainbow grid are just 2 different paths with the same destination: full on-element SSR grid. As time passes monogrid will swap SR weapons to SSR, and rainbow grid will swap off-element SSRs to on-element. You shouldn't forget about that part.

I attached the picture showing my team with mono(left side) and rainbow(right side) grid
I've been playing for 6 months, starting from Phoenix/Apocalypse rematch. This grid was built during that time.

Introduction done. Onto the main part: (and yes, it's going to be long)


Applied DMG-calculation:
Displayed attack value
　　× (1+ assault value + character eidolon effect + attack buff + assist)
　　× (1+ elemental advantage + elemental eidolon effect + elemental buff)
　　× (1+ ally attack debuff)
　　× (1+ union buff)
　　× (1+ other buff correction)
　　÷ {enemy defense × (1 + enemy defense debuff)}

This calculation will only consider unbuffed version of the DMG & disregard the defense of the enemy:
Displayed attack value
　　× (1+ assault value + character eidolon effect)
　　× (1+ elemental advantage + elemental eidolon effect)

HP in battle:
Displayed HP × (1 + defender value + eidolon effect)

Assumptions:
Monogrid is SL10
Rainbow grid is SL20
Pride skill counted as assault
+1k correction to displayed atk value as Apocalypse lance is 0* instead of MLB
+90 correction to displayed HP value for the reason above
Using 40/20 character eidolon + 40% elemental eidolon
Elemental advantage on both cases

Grid:
No dual skill weapons, hope it won't cause misunderstanding that I use "SSR assault" instead of "large assault" and so on.
2 assault SSR + 1 pride SSR -> calculating with 3 assault SSR
2 defender SSR
5 assault SR(monogrid) / 5 off-element SSR(rainbow grid)

Monogrid(left side):
Attack
37676+1000=38676 base attack on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
3x SSR assault weapon(3x11% bonus)
5x SR assault weapon(5x8% bonus)
38676x(1+3x0.11+5x0.08+0.4)x(1+0.45+0.4)=152402

HP
6241+90=6331 base HP on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
2 SSR defender weapon(2x11% bonus)
6331x(1+2x0.11+0.2)=8990

Rainbow grid(right side):
Attack
42125+1000=43125 base attack on Mordred (Apo lance correction)
3x SSR assault weapon(3x16% bonus)
43125x(1+3x0.16+0.4)x(1+0.45+0.4)=149988

HP
6362+90=6452 base hp on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
2x SSR defender weapon(2x16% bonus)
6452x(1+2x0,16+0,2)=9807

So what happens if we say that you use only one monogrid, which you can SL20, but in exchange lose elemental advantage most of the time?
It shouldn't be forgotten that elemental advantage has other benefits: higher debuff stickrate & lower incoming damage.

Advanced(SL20) monogrid:
Attack
37676+1000=38676 base attack on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
3x SSR assault weapon(3x16% bonus)
5x SR assault weapon(5x13% bonus)
2x 40% elemental eidolon, instead of 1 character+1 elemental

No elemental advantage:
38676x(1+3x0.16+5x0.13)x(1+2x0,4)=148283
Elemental advantage:
38676x(1+3x0.16+5x0.13)x(1+0.45+2x0.4)=185354

HP
6241+90=6331 base HP on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
2 SSR defender wep(2x16% bonus)
No eidolon bonus
6331x(1+2x0.16)=8356

Finally, it might be interesting to see what happens if you stick with 40/20 eidolon + elemental eidolon combo with the advanced monogrid:
Attack
37676+1000=38676 base attack on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
3x SSR assault weapon(3x16% bonus)
5x SR assault weapon(5x13% bonus)
40% character + 40% elemental bonus from eidolons

No elemental advantage:
38676x(1+3x0.16+5x0.13+0.4)x(1+0,4)=136990
Elemental advantage:
38676x(1+3x0.16+5x0.13+0.4)x(1+0.45+0.4)=181023

Footnote: the difference is way lower between 2x elemental & 1 character + 1 elemental eidolon if you have elemental advantage. Thought it might be worth mentioning.

HP
6241+90=6331 base HP on Mordred(Apo lance correction)
2 SSR defender wep(2x16% bonus)
20% eido bonus
6331x(1+2x0.16+0.2)=9623


Keep in mind that this calculation only considers the HP & DMG without actually considering team setup. This means that buffs & debuffs coming with each setup is disregarded, so you might want to have a look at your own setup before making your pick.

A final footnote: depending on how many on-element SSR assault you have in a rainbow grid, the applied DMG might change quite alot. Having 1-2 less or more of them will make quite a difference. Feel free to play with the numbers if you're curious what happens if you change this or that.
Here is the tool to do that: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PhfOAQk6EyK5l33ux_C4T-cexVIQp6D-_Hbd-OO1OmQ/edit#gid=848984711
All credits for the tool goes to Sanahtlig.

[Slashley]

That was a lot of effort, considering that The Sanahtlig's toolbox (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PhfOAQk6EyK5l33ux_C4T-cexVIQp6D-_Hbd-OO1OmQ/edit#gid=848984711) has a weapon calc. In one minute, I can slap a skill level 130 weapon with 0 atk against a 4000 atk skill level 0 weapon and instantly know that it's a whopping 37% damage loss. For my stats.

[nonsensei]

I know there are calculators out there for such purpose, but people might not know about such thing existing, might not bother the effort to learn how to use & put in their actual values, or just feel lost after having a look at the calculator.
The point of this post was to analyse an actual example and present it, but you're right on that I should probably link it at the end as I already mentioned that they can play around with the numbers.

[sanahtlig]

A few points:

Use the average of character-level attack values (the 5 in your frontline), not the team ATK value (which is not used by the game in damage calculations).
Use grids of max level and skill level SRs and SSRs if you want to make this comparison relevant to endgame players. At least one of your SSRs isn't max level. You can calculate the change in attack value by simple addition/subtraction.
Such calculations don't factor in one of the most important game mechanics: access to debuffs. Your best mono-element team will presumably have excellent debuff access; it's likely that at least one of your other elements will be debuff-deficient. You can use my Temporary Effects Calculator to estimate the effect of differential access to ATK and DEF down, as well as elemental advantage. The Advanced Damage Calculator can also factor in debuff miss rate (if you know this rate) and buff duration.

[nonsensei]

1. - I was considering that as well, but average is highly dependant on what himes you got(how high their base stats are), while soul's attack as far as I know is only dependant on the grid & bonuses.
2.My only unmaxed weapon on the grid is the 0* Apocalypse lance, which I corrected in my calculations by adding 1000 atk value & 90 HP which is roughly the difference between 0* & MLB.
I used SL10 monogrid first based on the assumption that that's roughly the manageable cost-wise for every element compared to rainbow SL20. (Also factors like SL10+ SR will result in sunk resources since SL10 SR wep is worth 350 skill level experience)
I also made a max SLed calculation for monogrid which took into consideration that cost-wise that would end you up with a single monogrid for a longer time. I also made the calculation for both having elemental advantage or neutral in this case.

3. - I pointed out in the end of the post that this calculation disregards that factor & that it should also be taken into consideration, but the whole point of this was to make an actual example instead of going into generalization of assuming if you had this or that hime & debuffs.

But all of these were explained in the analyzation.

Sorry for the too much edit if you were reading it, something got screwed up.

[sanahtlig]

So what would you conclude from this analysis? How should other players use these results to guide their own gear decisions?

[Unregistered]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, why is the mono grid only given sl10 weapon while the other is given sl20 weapons? Shoudnt you compare both grids using the same skill levels weapons?

[TNinja]

To compare both of them actually not easy both have their own merit
monogrid will have consequence to collect a lot SR weapons.
Forcing not advantageous element to ragna also danger.

So why not just rainbow grid
You dont need to waste the SR you grid and use because there is SSR now
You have good stat stick that affect HP and attack in all element.

[TNinja]

In more neutral answer actually both are situational answers. if in the past i choose to play rainbow as there is no OP eido that can let me push through everything with damage but it may change when I00% eido come. We will see how I00% eido elevate the damage of weapon skill to let player push through everything with just damage of one element regardless himes rarity.

[Slashley]

In more neutral answer actually both are situational answers.--Uuuuh no they're not. A monogrid will always outperform rainbow by a long shot.

[TNinja]

Uuuuh no they're not. A monogrid will always outperform rainbow by a long shot.
Really i use rainbow with skill level 2 but i can kill ultimate with only auto attack not even auto ability and kill ragna without any hime dying.

[TNinja]

And i'm not using SSR himes at all in context to this event.

[Slashley]

Well that's nice. But that doesn't change the fact that monogrids are by far superior to rainbows.

[sanahtlig]

Uuuuh no they're not. A monogrid will always outperform rainbow by a long shot.
I think the point of this long exercise was to show that an immature (rainbow) grid of SSR weapons can match or outperform an immature mono-element weapon grid (skill level not maxed, mostly SRs). I'm not sure though because the overarching purpose of the analysis was lost in the process of establishing the model. I have seen data that supports this particular conclusion, but it assumes you can field a full complement of debuffs for each element. That's not always possible.

[TNinja]

Well that's nice. But that doesn't change the fact that monogrids are by far superior to rainbows.

Actually i see more people around that using rainbow more succesful to clear ragna quicker than monogrid but if your argument is number well big number mean nothing if cant kill ragna without elemental advantage. monogrid has weak stats and hp against off element ragna will insta kill esp with no SSR himes.

[TNinja]

I actually dont like to debate using just a perception like this as its will yield no conclusion.
So i'm going to say about weakness of using monogrid.
I. it will much lower base hp esp if you use hp eido and the difference usually significantly big
2. Not using elemental advantage the debuff hardly stick make the ragna battle very risky.
3. incoming damage also bigger and when your base hp is low you cant sustain the health.
4. Too much focusing on one elemental will screw you when facing its weakness element.
5. You wont last long in union event using neutral element let alone its weakness because most the time you dont have much element to choose or hime to choose as you mostly too busy farming raids for weapon than farming fang or other limit break items for other element. so you most the time left with only one team to choose nothing else.
6. When SSR arrive your SR will become obsolete and it mean you waste all effort to grid it
7. Your bonus stat cannot be focused in one weapon and become scarce you cant maximize the bonus status from gacha you get
I wont debate it cuz i also lack solid data for comparation also busy too, just helping to shed the light

[Unregistered]

I actually dont like to debate using just a perception like this as its will yield no conclusion.
So i'm going to say about weakness of using monogrid.
I. it will much lower base hp esp if you use hp eido and the difference usually significantly big
2. Not using elemental advantage the debuff hardly stick make the ragna battle very risky.
3. incoming damage also bigger and when your base hp is low you cant sustain the health.
4. Too much focusing on one elemental will screw you when facing its weakness element.
5. You wont last long in union event using neutral element let alone its weakness because most the time you dont have much element to choose or hime to choose as you mostly too busy farming raids for weapon than farming fang or other limit break items for other element. so you most the time left with only one team to choose nothing else.
6. When SSR arrive your SR will become obsolete and it mean you waste all effort to grid it
7. Your bonus stat cannot be focused in one weapon and become scarce you cant maximize the bonus status from gacha you get
I wont debate it cuz i also lack solid data for comparation also busy too, just helping to shed the light

Most of your points make no sense or are completely wrong.

1. If you're using a mixed grid, you're losing several weapon buffs. A decently leveled defender weapon or two of your team's element can easily make up the difference for using a mono grid of SSR and SR weapons.

2. Debuff's success rate is not as big of an issue that you're making it and can be taken care of with Mordred and several other ways.

3. #1.

4. Who does that? Any decent player will have a back up party to deal with weakness element and if you're using dark or light, you don't have this problem to begin with. People who've played long enough will have a decently leveled grid for every element and can still easily prioritize one or two over the rest.

5. Union events aren't solo, they're team based and again, you're over exaggerating another simple matter of farming/doing your dailies for break limit materials. The only time break limit materials is an issue is if you just started playing. It doesn't take long to where you'll eventually get to the point you have so much extra you won't have anything to use them on.

6. Using low level gear while working up to high level gear is the staple gameplay of any RPG game. If it helped you clear an event, then in no way it was a waste as it helped you progress. You're not just going to magically get a full SSR grid out of no where nor are you going to be able to successfully farm a max break weapon using nothing. You need to build from scratch and starting off the game you use R and SR weapons.

7. No idea what you're talking about.

[nonsensei]

Answer to Sanahtlig

There is no conclusion to the analysis in regards what should be better to use. This was supposed to present a comparison for monogrid vs rainbow grid as the title says. The point of it is to present actual values given an actual grid. So basically wanted to make an analysis that doesn't talk in just general about the question, but shows you data.
It seems that you guyz are really focusing on the SL10 part, while the advanced monogrid(SL20) is also part of the calculation. It seems like my idea of keeping a lower monogrid of each element which would be the SL10 isn't to your liking. But that doesn't mean that it is talking about the actual one-way monogrid, and I think that was made pretty clear since there is a whole part calculating with that grid seperately as well.
As the results show, none of the choices are significantly better than the rest in terms of grid at the current stage. And the current stage should be a pretty advanced one, since we are talking about 6 months spam of time.
Also since I haven't taken into consideration the team setup, I can't conclude which to choose, either since that's not the point of the analysis. There are also great guides already made by you on that subject, so I didn't feel the need to discuss that... and my analysis is already a lengthy one even without that.

If there was a conclusion to this, it's that none of the choices is the "correct" one which I thought important to point out as I have mostly seen people being biased on one of the choices. Rainbow grid is also a way to do things: the lazy way. You will reach high enough output rather fast in exchange for a slower progress later on while building monogrids for each element takes time. And building a single monogrid would be around the same cost as building rainbow grid since you will have to keep a sub-element as well for countering the elemental disadvantage of your single monogrid. It will outperform rainbow grid on elemental advantage, that's certainly true, but you will lose that most of the time while rainbow grid will maintain it due to its flexibility. In that case their dmg output seems to be around the same in the analysis. While you would have the right debuffs on your monogrid team, you would lose lowered dmg incoming from enemies, the higher stickrate for debuffs and a higher HP.

And it seems I should make it clear that I myself am using a monogrid team, but the topic picked my interest and as I was investigating the matter, I found myself doing something that might be worth posting.



Unless I'm reading it wrong, why is the mono grid only given sl10 weapon while the other is given sl20 weapons? Shoudnt you compare both grids using the same skill levels weapons?

That was already asked by Sanahtlig as well, and it's also discussed in the introduction part, and I made a calculation on SL20 case as well.
Answering your question, the point is that rainbow grid needs lower resources to maintain while if you want to build monogrid while still aiming for utilizing elemental advantage, you would need to build a monogrid for all element which results in a much higher cost, hence the lowered skill levels.

[SlickFenix]

I think the purpose of this post was to show that there really isn't a huge difference early on in Mono vs Rainbow grid. So, I think it's to help players that are starting/still building.

He even mentions in the beginning that the endgame is to get to a Mono SSR Grid. He is just showing a little bit of difference in how ppl can get there.

With the introduction of daily Gem caves it can now be a little harder to argue which ones builds faster (although do newer players really have enough HE to hit the gem caves that hard to build the mono grid faster?). Rainbow Grid is easier because you only have to SL the SSRs, and get a higher Atk and HP Quickly. Whereas the mono grid you have to make sure you get the right weapons, and spamming Disaster Raids takes a while to get all the weapons you need. Then Skill Leveling takes a lot of time and resources.

Players can choose whichever way they please to build up to that grid, and this was just intended to show that going the Rainbow route initially may not be that bad. Personally I have decided that I will skill level each of my grids as that Ele comes up in a Union Raid. So, since the end of last Union raid I have been working on my Wind Grid, and am using a Rainbow Grid for this event. I have decent grids for Fire, Water, and Light. My Rainbow grids have been working just fine for the other 3 elements. However I'm almost at a 50k Total Atk rating with my Rainbow grid.

[TNinja]

Most of your points make no sense or are completely wrong.

1. If you're using a mixed grid, you're losing several weapon buffs. A decently leveled defender weapon or two of your team's element can easily make up the difference for using a mono grid of SSR and SR weapons.

2. Debuff's success rate is not as big of an issue that you're making it and can be taken care of with Mordred and several other ways.

3. #1.

4. Who does that? Any decent player will have a back up party to deal with weakness element and if you're using dark or light, you don't have this problem to begin with. People who've played long enough will have a decently leveled grid for every element and can still easily prioritize one or two over the rest.

5. Union events aren't solo, they're team based and again, you're over exaggerating another simple matter of farming/doing your dailies for break limit materials. The only time break limit materials is an issue is if you just started playing. It doesn't take long to where you'll eventually get to the point you have so much extra you won't have anything to use them on.

6. Using low level gear while working up to high level gear is the staple gameplay of any RPG game. If it helped you clear an event, then in no way it was a waste as it helped you progress. You're not just going to magically get a full SSR grid out of no where nor are you going to be able to successfully farm a max break weapon using nothing. You need to build from scratch and starting off the game you use R and SR weapons.

7. No idea what you're talking about.
I can counter all the argument but wont because its situational answer and perception not something solid and im busy too
so i will answer number 7 its about you cant put bonus stat from accumulation of plus one in SR weapon at best it will scarce.

[TNinja]

About HP rarely people using defender esp the monogrid. Usually monogrid people are anti using defender thats why they have very low hp and Sr defender hp dont help much. You can argue about it but it will yield no conclusion or answer as both answer is a perception, assumption not actually real facts.

[Unregistered]

When we say 'rainbow', to what degree of 'rainbow' are we referring to?
Are we talking about compositions where the eidolon you want for the passive is a dual-element (Apocalypse/Phoenix/Fafnir/etc.)?
Or we're talking about a team where one of the standard elemental lilim looks good?
Or a team where the illusion/phantom lilim is the choice? (when you have/want no more than 2 kamihime of any given element)

[Slashley]

Actually i see more people around that using rainbowYes, but people being bad is hardly anything new. The amount of times I've had to argue with people about character vs. elemental attack is astounding...
-- more succesful to clear ragna quicker--Yeeeaaaah... right. No.

Around the time that you can clear Ultimate is around the time you start to have the resources to run monogrids. When you're able to run Ragnaroks, you should already be running monogrids, because even weak monogrids will stomp rainbows quickly.

[sanahtlig]

Rainbow grid is also a way to do things: the lazy way.
It's not though. With a rainbow grid strategy, you need to do all the events to farm all the SSRs for every element. Meanwhile the mono-grid player can farm a single element and not miss much. Elemental weakness isn't much of an issue since a mono-grid player doesn't really need much from any element other than their own anyway. Also, a maxed mono-grid team can clear Ultimates of their elemental weakness if needed; it's just Ragnaroks that are the problem. Yet clearing the extra 1/6 of Ragnaroks doesn't provide much benefit either, so that can be skipped too. Same with Ragnarok Disasters and Accessory Quests.

[nonsensei]

It's not though. With a rainbow grid strategy, you need to do all the events to farm all the SSRs for every element. Meanwhile the mono-grid player can farm a single element and not miss much. Elemental weakness isn't much of an issue since a mono-grid player doesn't really need much from any element other than their own anyway. Also, a maxed mono-grid team can clear Ultimates of their elemental weakness if needed; it's just Ragnaroks that are the problem. Yet clearing the extra 1/6 of Ragnaroks doesn't provide much benefit either, so that can be skipped too. Same with Ragnarok Disasters and Accessory Quests.

I see where you're coming from, but are we really going to use players that don't have much time to log in & grind events as an example? Coz I doubt most of those players would bother looking at guides and take their time deciding which is the best for them. But if we are talking about that case, you're right. You can just disregard that single element you're weak against. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That said, there are players who can actively participate in most events and want to clear them. And clearing doesn't only mean taking the rewards, but completely overcoming the challenges. And to those players, building a rainbow grid shouldn't be much of a problem while they don't have to bother with filling their grids with SR weapons. And they would also slowly, but surely become better & better with each element which has its own benefits.

And once again, I'm also using monogrid team, but if you argue against rainbow, I can't help, but argue for rainbow grid as that's also a pretty well working option.

[CrimsonRunner]

Despite knowing of monogrids and their advantages, I ran rainbow grid in the past up until I could auto ultimate somewhat reliably, worst case scenario with auto(no skill) the first 2 waves. Though Typhoon's massive burst gave me troubles and I had to manual that one. 40k overall attack with a rainbow-grid, but mono-element team, is still somewhat decent. From that point on, started building all my elemental grids with event weapons, farming almost none of the raid weapons (I have like 7 or so MLB-ed raid weps split in all 6 elements). At this point I'm starting to finish-up my monogrids in terms of weapons, though all SL are around 11 or so since above that is expensive af and I decided I need to save gems for accessory quests from the moment I heard of it, which was close to very beginning.

My personal plans now are just getting the most out of everything I can and improving all my grids somewhat consistently. Though I don't much about what is to come, I've been managing to keep up with the highest difficulty for a couple months so it works out for me so far, though the reason for this might be because I'm running free and have 2 gacha SSRs (with a recent addition of just a weapon) despite my 6 months of playing.

I'd say that rainbow grids were fine for the beginning but monogrids are definitely better later. But with the upcoming accessory quests which add a whole new difficulty level, it might take too new players too long to reach the strength where they can defeat ragnarok difficulty of any element, though I don't know how accessories will factor in.

My experience should be taken with a grain of salt as I was capable of investing the time to make this work. To give you a rough estimate - I started 2 days before crom cruach, with 4-5 lucky drops I got a L85 eido and MLB weapon. Got Ixion to L70 and 1* wep with no drops, apocalypse and phoenix to L40 with 0* or 1* weps. From Quetzatcoatl on, with her included, I MLBed every SSR there was to MLB except Yggdrasil.

[sanahtlig]

I see where you're coming from, but are we really going to use players that don't have much time to log in & grind events as an example?
If there's one strategy that is simpler, more efficient, and better or equal to the alternative in all scenarios, there's no reason to discuss the alternative in a guide. New players are overwhelmed as it is; no need to add to their learning curve. That is, unless you can convince me that the rainbow grid strategy is at least situationally superior.

This discussion can be summarized into the following question: Is it worth investing in SR weapons?

We can begin to answer this question by answering the following:
At what skill level is a same-element SR assault weapon superior to an off-element SSR (both max-level)?

Mono-grid players will also be interested in:
At what limit break tier / skill level is a same-element SR assault weapon superior to a maxed off-element SR?

Focusing your research on answering questions of general interest, rather than explaining methodological details, will make your analyses more relevant to other users. It'd be different if your methodology was novel and better than current alternatives, but it's not (as far as I can tell). I created and published my tools so others could answer questions like this in a verifiable manner, without having to start from scratch every time.

[Unregistered]

with same resource invested, rainbow team is always inferior. even if you have 0 assault power weapon grid, you still have eidelon bonus. no need to say the more developed your weapon grid is, the larger the gap becomes. unless there are super rare abilities (like Gaia, sol, cthulu, raiko), there is no point using off element himes at all. rainbow weapon grid is even a more worthless idea, you have to use it when you are start playing(not many choices), but that's all. as an infant you might risk fall down, but you eventually have to learn how to walk right?

[nonsensei]

Thank you guys for the responses. I will make this my last post on the matter, coz we seem to be running circles.


If there's one strategy that is simpler, more efficient, and better or equal to the alternative in all scenarios, there's no reason to discuss the alternative in a guide. New players are overwhelmed as it is; no need to add to their learning curve. That is, unless you can convince me that the rainbow grid strategy is at least situationally superior.

You have a point on that new players are being overwhelmed with information and a guide is more of a thing that should tell a new player what to do in order to get stronger. But this isn't a guide. Like I pointed it out before, this is supposed to be an analysis with actual data on the matter, not a general answer. I started investigating the case being like "Yeah, I know monogrid is the better option.", but I actually want to see & calculate it on my own. And I was pretty surprised when the values showed that the rainbow grid is actually a pretty decent option, even if it's not the best. Most players around me were dissing it as something completely worthless or at the very least not an option worth consideration. And here I ended up with values showing that's not by a long the case.


This discussion can be summarized into the following question: Is it worth investing in SR weapons?

We can begin to answer this question by answering the following:
At what skill level is a same-element SR assault weapon superior to an off-element SSR (both max-level)?

Mono-grid players will also be interested in:
At what limit break tier / skill level is a same-element SR assault weapon superior to a maxed off-element SR?

Focusing your research on answering questions of general interest, rather than explaining methodological details, will make your analyses more relevant to other users. It'd be different if your methodology was novel and better than current alternatives, but it's not (as far as I can tell). I created and published my tools so others could answer questions like this in a verifiable manner, without having to start from scratch every time.

And this is exactly why I linked your tool at the end of the post (after Slashley pointed out). I just presented a comparison from A to Z on the matter rather than just giving a calculator that does everything for you.


with same resource invested, rainbow team is always inferior. even if you have 0 assault power weapon grid, you still have eidelon bonus. no need to say the more developed your weapon grid is, the larger the gap becomes. unless there are super rare abilities (like Gaia, sol, cthulu, raiko), there is no point using off element himes at all.

There was no mention on the thread about rainbow team, so I don't see your point mentioning it.


rainbow weapon grid is even a more worthless idea, you have to use it when you are start playing(not many choices), but that's all. as an infant you might risk fall down, but you eventually have to learn how to walk right?

As far as this calculation goes, rainbow weapon grid isn't worthless. That was one of my points posting my results on this comparison. I mentioned in the answer to Sanahtlig, but exactly because most people were dissing rainbow grid like that, I was surprised myself with the results I got and hence I shared it. If I got the data I was expecting I would have just nod and say "Yes, I was expecting something along those lines." and never bother posting it.

[Unregistered]

Huh, all this time of mono vs rainbow grid, I was thinking in terms of kamihime compositions. I only just now noticed that you were talking about weapon grids the entire time.

Why is the example using a mono element with ~3/8th of the investment of the full ssr grid?

[Unregistered]

Huh, all this time of mono vs rainbow grid, I was thinking in terms of kamihime compositions. I only just now noticed that you were talking about weapon grids the entire time.


I'm glad someone brought this up. Rainbow is a term players throw around a lot but there seem to be several meanings to it. And many will claim monogrids are "superior" to rainbow because they don't understand the design or the goals of a rainbow grid.

The first point of this article is to illustrate what a "good" rainbow grid looks like. Note the kamihime are all expected to be of the same element.

This article assumes your endgame goal is to have all 6 grids filled with maxed out SSR weapons. If you plan to only build one grid and ignore all other elements, stop reading this thread. 6 grids have several advantages over 1. You get advantage in every battle. Many event missions also require a specific element so building all 6 allows you to complete those missions.

SSR take a while to acquire so the 2 choices are to fill the remaining slots with SR weapons or SSR from another element. The former grants extra weapon skill buffs but less raw stats and requires you to spend resources. The latter gives higher stats and is completely free since the placeholder weapons are just weapons you use in another grid.

The second point is it shows what a "typical" rainbow looks like for players currently. It demonstrates that a maxed rainbow grid is fairly close to a maxed monogrid in terms of relative strength. And it requires no extra investment in SR which will just get replaced later.

Third, it compares the rainbow to a SL10 monogrid which is roughly what you'd expect to make using the same resources as a rainbow. This demonstrates that it's better to focus on your SSR and only use extra resources for SR. It also shows that it's a bad idea to split your focus and try to build all your weapons simultaneously.

[Wanderer]

Wrong from the start, should have run the numbers on this:



I'm going to calculate with SL10 monogrids compared to SL20 rainbow grids, as making a monogrid for each element is much more costly than keeping one rainbow grid that might alternate only a little bit for each element.


In your calculation, rainbow grid gets 5 SL20 boost as well as element advantage. (Isn't it more like half-half, rather than rainbow?) So you need 5x6=30 SL20 SSRs.
Each SL20 SSR requires 380 Rs to level up, that's 11,400 Rs in total.
Each SL10 monogrid requires 675 Rs, 4,050 Rs in total.

[Unregistered]

I don't get why the 5 dark SSR weapons used in both the monogrid and rainbow examples have different skill levels.

[sanahtlig]

After talking to the Discord troll a few months ago and running simulations using his team, I was convinced that the rainbow grid strategy was viable. I think nonsensei hangs out in that channel, so he should've seen the discussion too. But viable doesn't necessarily equal optimal, as Wanderer's criticism illustrates. If you want to fully understand this comparison, you need to run more simulations, consider different angles, and think carefully about the inputs and outputs. Napkin math isn't going to cut it. I know because I tried and ended up at a wrong conclusion several times.

[Unregistered]

I'm glad someone brought this up. Rainbow is a term players throw around a lot but there seem to be several meanings to it. And many will claim monogrids are "superior" to rainbow because they don't understand the design or the goals of a rainbow grid.

The first point of this article is to illustrate what a "good" rainbow grid looks like. Note the kamihime are all expected to be of the same element.

This article assumes your endgame goal is to have all 6 grids filled with maxed out SSR weapons. If you plan to only build one grid and ignore all other elements, stop reading this thread. 6 grids have several advantages over 1. You get advantage in every battle. Many event missions also require a specific element so building all 6 allows you to complete those missions.

SSR take a while to acquire so the 2 choices are to fill the remaining slots with SR weapons or SSR from another element. The former grants extra weapon skill buffs but less raw stats and requires you to spend resources. The latter gives higher stats and is completely free since the placeholder weapons are just weapons you use in another grid.

The way you describe the philosophy/approach strikes me as boiling down to:
Work on all the SSRs you can. Regardless of monogrid or rainbow, the grid for X element team will have corresponding X element SSR weapons. That is the base level of investment present in either approach.
The difference between rainbow and a monogrid for a given element is replacing the off-element SSR with an on element SR with assault.

So, in more generic form, it basically looks like this:
For an investment cost of 34,953 experience points and the equivalent of 190 R's (to max out a new SR),
you lose the difference in atk between the incoming new SR and the outgoing off-element SSR (usually in the 300-400 range?), while gaining 13% to assault.
The question is whether or not you the player finds that additional investment to be worth it, as (eventually) an SR gets replaced with an on-element SSR.

Of course, there's always different levels of investments for these temp weapons. Exp-wise, for an SR, it's 4,123 exp to get to lv 40, 10,168 exp to get to lv 55, and 20,778 exp to get to lv 70.
6 R's will get an SR to skill lv 4 (+5% assault), or 31 R's for skill lv 8 (+7% assault), or 91 R's for skill lv 14 (+10%) assault.

So the question evolves into figuring how much additional investment is needed before you start making gains, and then the followup to that would be to evaluate the investment:gain ratio and decide on what you're happy with.

[Unregistered]

Oops, that's 28 R's to get to skill lv 8, not 31 R's

[Unregistered]

The way you describe the philosophy/approach strikes me as boiling down to:
Work on all the SSRs you can. Regardless of monogrid or rainbow, the grid for X element team will have corresponding X element SSR weapons. That is the base level of investment present in either approach.
The difference between rainbow and a monogrid for a given element is replacing the off-element SSR with an on element SR with assault.

So, in more generic form, it basically looks like this:
For an investment cost of 34,953 experience points and the equivalent of 190 R's (to max out a new SR),
you lose the difference in atk between the incoming new SR and the outgoing off-element SSR (usually in the 300-400 range?), while gaining 13% to assault.
The question is whether or not you the player finds that additional investment to be worth it, as (eventually) an SR gets replaced with an on-element SSR.

Of course, there's always different levels of investments for these temp weapons. Exp-wise, for an SR, it's 4,123 exp to get to lv 40, 10,168 exp to get to lv 55, and 20,778 exp to get to lv 70.
6 R's will get an SR to skill lv 4 (+5% assault), or 31 R's for skill lv 8 (+7% assault), or 91 R's for skill lv 14 (+10%) assault.

So the question evolves into figuring how much additional investment is needed before you start making gains, and then the followup to that would be to evaluate the investment:gain ratio and decide on what you're happy with.

Pretty much. Corresponding element SSR are your most valuable asset no matter your build and the long term goal is to have a full grid of them. There might be an approach that requires less investment in the short term for beginner players, but I tend to prioritize the long term and end game.

[sanahtlig]

The difference between rainbow and a monogrid for a given element is replacing the off-element SSR with an on element SR with assault.

Yes. Last I checked, switching out a Disaster SR Assault SLV20 for an SSR is about a 2-3% damage loss for a maxed monogrid player (me). That loss increases the more assault skill you remove, but is mitigated by running a team with elemental advantage. However, the rainbow SSR grid strategy still relies on skill leveling the SSRs. It's more efficient in the long-term, but a monogrid player is unlikely to build 6 teams with skill-leveled SRs. They'll build 1-2 teams, and then shift to skill leveling SSRs only. So the opportunity cost is actually pretty minimal in the long-term.

Building a maxed monogrid takes about 3 months, and a player can farm Disaster Assault weapons at a rate of about 2 drops per week. A monogrid team isn't particularly effective on neutral-element content until about +60% assault, or ~SLVL6 average among all 10 slots.

[Slashley]

After talking to the Discord troll a few months ago and running simulations using his team, I was convinced that the rainbow grid strategy was viable.--... how? Or should I say, "define viable?"

Because seriously, I don't see any room for discussion whatsoever. A monogrid will just shit upon a rainbow grid so badly it isn't even funny.

We have theoretical tools to see this, but fuck it, I made a video to demonstrate just how damn badly rainbow gets shat upon. In the video, the stats are (higher number in bold):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwDfLXW6gvg
Water rainbow vs Thunder mono
30800 vs 26935 base Hime attack (6740+6300+9600+8160 vs 6500+5370+8300+6765)
22910 vs 18176 weapon attack (note: weapon type bonuses not included since I don't know the specific bonuses per Hime, but even at worst it'd be 22910 vs. 19993)
12312 vs 12060 Eidolon attack (11972 vs 11446 as seen on video, but Eidolon bonus is easy to calculate)
145% vs 100% Elemental advantage
40% vs 40% Character attack from Eidolon
40% vs 40% Elemental attack from Eidolon
9% vs 105% weapon Assault skill
Everything is clearly far in favor of Water except for the Assault skill, so who do you think will win? Spoilers: the monogrid will just absolutely dominate. Even when fighting Water's strong opponent, Thunder STILL deals more damage. I honestly wanted to use Fire team against Wind, but 145% over 75% Elemental advantage should be a little bit too much to overcome.

With no double attacks, Water dealt 60k (timestamp: 1:37) damage in a turn. Thunder dealt 70k (5:04). Hell, at the end Thunder had four characters debuffed with Atk Down, and they STILL dealt 60k (6:41)!

Now, you can argue that "oh but it's just one Water Assault and it's low skill level!!!1" but... so what? That's the problem with rainbowgrids, that's all you have! The maximum I could have as Water is 16%. Yes, eventually, EVENTUALLY you'll have more SSR Assaults that apply to your Element but... you'd also have those in your monogrid(s). So a rainbowgrid would certainly grow more powerful as events roll by, but so does the monogrid (slightly). As their ultimate form is the same, a rainbow will slowly creep up upon the mono advantage and catch up, but never surpass it.

New players start with a rainbowgrid since that's all you can do. But as time passes on, you'll have more and more resources available to you. You will either just waste those resources, or start building monogrid(s). Many players can't be bothered since "eventually you'll just use SSRs!!11", and it really shows since they get absolutely shat on by players who bothered to build a proper monogrid.

So is it "viable"? That really, really depends on your definition of "viable." But it certainly isn't in my definition of "viable" - rainbowgrids are simply really crappy and only for the lazy.

[BakaHentai]

I think it's funny how you proved the case for what makes rainbow so viable and still go off and say it's crappy and not viable whatsoever.

First, I need to point out something all players seem to go braindead about when it comes to this topic. Rainbow is not an endgame build. A player who knows what they are doing with rainbow has no plans whatsoever to stay rainbow for long. The argument for--or against it--has nothing to do with that. The goal for both SR mono and rainbow builds is to aim for an endgame grid of Mono SSRs.

Let's break down why rainbow is so viable and why your video proves a case for that.

First of all, Mono SR grid users are almost always fighting off-element since they normally only use 1 or 2 teams. The point of rainbow is to closely match a Mono users damage, with the help of element advantage. Which you clearly display in that video. 2nd, a rainbow user has the same strength across all of their teams due to a versatile grid. Not only that, but they also have -25% damage reduction from element advantage, which helps them outlast Mono SR users in Ragnaroks and Union Raids. They essentially do more damage because they live longer by taking less damage. Rainbow users can also get to a point where they can farm Ragnaroks faster, due to always having element advantage.

Obviously, Mono SR grids do more damage, but that doesn't mean they are better for clearing content. I'm not saying Mono SR grids are bad, but in terms of efficiency, rainbow is the way to go. Without question. However, if you prefer some extra damage you don't really need, then by all means go Mono SR.

Rainbow is a tool to work on all of your teams at the same time, and quickly get to a point where you can farm all event Ragnaroks, without burying yourself in countless SR weapons.

[Slashley]

--
First, I need to point out something all players seem to go braindead about when it comes to this topic. Rainbow is not an endgame build. A player who knows what they are doing with rainbow has no plans whatsoever to stay rainbow for long. The argument for--or against it--has nothing to do with that. The goal for both SR mono and rainbow builds is to aim for an endgame grid of Mono SSRs.So you're saying that after playing the game for three years, rainbow is good?
Well, isn't that nice. Of course, you could've had more power 2.5 years ago.
--I'm not saying Mono SR grids are bad, but in terms of efficiency, rainbow is the way to go. Without question. However, if you prefer some extra damage you don't really need, then by all means go Mono SR. --Your "efficiency" is wasting tons of resources over the years, just so that you don't "waste" some on non-SSR weapons which will stay nearly forever in your grid. You don't actually gain anything.


Also, why do those advantages only apply to a rainbowgrid? If survival is required, a monogrid user can just swap to rainbow and oh look. It's pretty much the exact same thing as what a rainbowgrid user would have for that specific Element. Because the difference between 49% and 56% is not very huge (as Character attack Eidolons count towards Assault), a monogrid user will almost be on equal footing in the rare cases where you actually need the damage reduction. Whileas the reverse is never true for rainbowgrid users - they can't just swap to mono and have the damage output.

[:blobmelt:]

:blobmelt:

[BakaHentai]

Also, a good rainbow grid doesn't do as little damage as some players seem to think.

Here's my suicide, rainbow thunder team in action "youtube" /watch?v=i3q5zoTFPBM&t=

8235
8236

[:blobmelt:]

:blobmelt:

[BakaHentai]

"If survival is required, a monogrid user can just swap to rainbow and oh look."

I like how this is always a guaranteed response from any player I discuss this with, as if for some reason they think a mono users rainbow grid would be just as strong as a player who solely puts all of their efforts in their SSR SL. And 3 years? What are you even saying? It hasn't even been a year yet and most of my grids have an average of 4 mono SSR weapons (from events).

Full assault would take longer of course, but if a rainbow user really wanted more damage that badly, they could always whale or just snag one of the better SR assaults from events.

[Kitty]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLffgYJW4AAwG7z.png

[Unregistered]

Well, element advantage is really more relevant in the first of the two decision points.

The first decision point is:
Focus on developing 1 primary/1 secondary team (should be the quickest to reach its ceiling)
OR
Rotate elements to match the event

If you pick the former, then rainbow isn't even a thing to think about.

If you pick the latter, the next decision to make is:
Work on only SSR weapons; work with the rainbow grid as you collect more SSRs over the longterm
OR
You work on SR weapons too to get closer to monogrids for each element while waiting for SSRs

The latter here, of course, takes a lot more investment/time.
The interesting question here though, is assuming lower levels of investment (particularly, skill level-wise). Because of how the exp curve and the skill point curve look, and how the gains from weapon levels and skill levels are linear, what you gain versus how much you invest is frontloaded.
While maxing out SSR weapons is the endgoal regardless of how you get there, how you go about in the early stages can be interesting. Instead of going straight into your SSR weapons, you could instead focus on the frontloaded gains and spread resources around on SR weapons to a degree. That pushes back your lategame, but I think that you'll be quicker to reach the power level floor where you can consistently get the missable stuff from events. (namely, ult farming in advents) Once there, you can then decide on whether to continue to spread the resources around, or head into pure SSR developing.

[Marigold]

Gotta love when people discuss for days over a subject that's obvious or has already been stated previously

[BakaHentai]

Gotta love when people discuss for days over a subject that's obvious or has already been stated previously

Gotta love it when some people just want attention.

[Slashley]

I like how this is always a guaranteed response from any player I discuss this with, as if for some reason they think a mono users rainbow grid would be just as strong as a player who solely puts all of their efforts in their SSR SL.That's because they are. More on that in a bit.
And 3 years? What are you even saying? It hasn't even been a year yet and most of my grids have an average of 4 mono SSR weapons (from events).Of course you have 4 per element. Let's see now, counting double skills and Pride weapons as Assault:
Fire: 3 Assault, 2 Defender
Water: 2 Assault, 1 Defender
Wind: 2 Assault, 2 Defender
Thunder: 2 Assault, 3 Defender
Darkness: 3 Assault, 2 Defender
Light: 2 Assault

(5 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 2)/6 = 4 per element. Out of which half is Defender weapons. Three years is what it'll take before you'll be at a good spot for every Element as a rainbowgrid user.

So you have about four SSRs per Element. And? I've been playing since Crom's Crotch, so I've missed out on several SSR weapons. Yet, my Water monogrid is at 94%. Even if you had focused solely on SSRs and gotten ALL your SSRs to slvl20, my Water still is... 94-16-16-23... 39% ahead of your Water. Ignoring Light, my worst element Wind is at 73%, which is still 9% above your current maximum! When counting Pride as 16% that is, which isn't technically correct, but saying that it's 10% doesn't do the amazing Pride weapons justice. Anyway, at this point, your rainbow team MIGHT actually be better than my Wind, just because I've largely ignored investing in mine.

I've been playing the game for seven months, which is obviously months less than you have. And I seem to be losing in one Element, absolutely CRUSHING you in one, and doing slightly better than you in three? If we include Light, we can say losing in two Elements, but Light has had a whopping two events so far. Has anyone invested in Light? Maybe some who have pulled several Light SSRs, I guess. Anyway.

Where is your advantage again...?

[Marigold]

Gotta love it when some people just want attention.

Oh the irony

[BakaHentai]

That's because they are. More on that in a bit.Of course you have 4 per element. Let's see now, counting double skills and Pride weapons as Assault:
Fire: 3 Assault, 2 Defender
Water: 2 Assault, 1 Defender
Wind: 2 Assault, 2 Defender
Thunder: 2 Assault, 3 Defender
Darkness: 3 Assault, 2 Defender
Light: 2 Assault

(5 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 2)/6 = 4 per element. Out of which half is Defender weapons. Three years is what it'll take before you'll be at a good spot for every Element as a rainbowgrid user.

So you have about four SSRs per Element. And? I've been playing since Crom's Crotch, so I've missed out on several SSR weapons. Yet, my Water monogrid is at 94%. Even if you had focused solely on SSRs and gotten ALL your SSRs to slvl20, my Water still is... 94-16-16-23... 39% ahead of your Water. Ignoring Light, my worst element Wind is at 73%, which is still 9% above your current maximum! When counting Pride as 16% that is, which isn't technically correct, but saying that it's 10% doesn't do the amazing Pride weapons justice. Anyway, at this point, your rainbow team MIGHT actually be better than my Wind, just because I've largely ignored investing in mine.

I've been playing the game for seven months, which is obviously months less than you have. And I seem to be losing in one Element, absolutely CRUSHING you in one, and doing slightly better than you in three? If we include Light, we can say losing in two Elements, but Light has had a whopping two events so far. Has anyone invested in Light? Maybe some who have pulled several Light SSRs, I guess. Anyway.

Where is your advantage again...?

Actually, I started my current account during the Jorm event. So at most it's about a month older than yours. And you haven't missed out on several weapons. At most, you've missed out on Jorm, Sandalphon, Crom, maybe Quetz, and either Phoenix OR Apoc. If you slacked off. And 3 of those were defenders, so like other mono grid users, you probably would have skipped them anyway. Or used them as fodder.

If you missed anything else besides those, it was a choice to do so.

I also like how you just throw out assault bonuses without mentioning what your attack stats even are. 160% assault on top of garbage attack is still garbage.

All of my teams have about 50k atk and deal around 30k per auto, per unit, with -40% defense. They also average around 10k HP with 40/20 + 40% element atk. Which is more than enough to AAB most (if not all) of all content we have had, and manually farm events at a quick pace.

And this is my advantage.

8237

[Aidoru]

If you're just starting or still fresh, the time and investment into SR weapons will save you time in itself towards being able to clear harder difficulties and being able to reach the ability to auto battle farm. Early on, if you play with the mindset of only using SSR weapons, you're likely to drag out not finishing weapons and eidolons while forcing yourself to waste more important resources like elixirs and seeds because you're not able to farm efficiently (low PP gain from raid/union events) or not able to farm the highest level difficulty (running expert cause you can't do ultimate in advents).

No ones wants to have to run hundreds of ultimate advents on manual, let alone experts. The amount of time you could save on that by simply investing in a few SR weapons instead of waiting for a new event.

If you're to the point you can clear anything, then it honestly doesn't even matter what you do,

[BakaHentai]

If you're just starting or still fresh, the time and investment into SR weapons will save you time in itself towards being able to clear harder difficulties and being able to reach the ability to auto battle farm. Early on, if you play with the mindset of only using SSR weapons, you're likely to drag out not finishing weapons and eidolons while forcing yourself to waste more important resources like elixirs and seeds because you're not able to farm efficiently (low PP gain from raid/union events) or not able to farm the highest level difficulty (running expert cause you can't do ultimate in advents).

No ones wants to have to run hundreds of ultimate advents on manual, let alone experts. The amount of time you could save on that by simply investing in a few SR weapons instead of waiting for a new event.

If you're to the point you can clear anything, then it honestly doesn't even matter what you do,

This right here is another common response that makes no sense.

The point of rainbow isn't to ignore SRs entirely, it's just ignoring the SR SL. The need to start off with multiple SR lvl 85s, before moving onto SSRs (as a fresh player) is so obvious that I don't understand why anyone would think this is a vaild point.

[Slashley]

--
I also like how you just throw out assault bonuses without mentioning what your attack stats even are. 160% assault on top of garbage attack is still garbage.--And I like how you throw out words like "garbage" without giving proper numbers. I just posted a small while ago actual numbers:
22910 vs 18176 from weapons.

Huh. It looks like the difference is 5k. And this isn't the only source of attack, mind you. ~6k is in Hime attack, ~12k is in Eidolons. So we're talking about:
41000 vs 36000
So like 14% higher base attack? This percentage doesn't directly relate to Assault, of course. Oh, and Rank gives you an atk bonus as well, further closing the gap. But I believe this to be quite small, so let's just ignore that.

[Aidoru]

This right here is another common response that makes no sense.

The point of rainbow isn't to ignore SRs entirely, it's just ignoring the SR SL. The need to start off with multiple SR lvl 85s, before moving onto SSRs (as a fresh player) is so obvious that I don't understand why anyone would think this is a vaild point.

The way people have been discussing it seems as if this is a problem that applies to high level players because it doesn't. This debate of going rainbow or mono is only a problem for low level players. As I said, if you're able to clear all the current content, the decision of going mono or rainbow doesn't even matter.

[BakaHentai]

And I like how you throw out words like "garbage" without giving proper numbers. I just posted a small while ago actual numbers:
22910 vs 18176 from weapons.

Huh. It looks like the difference is 5k. And this isn't the only source of attack, mind you. ~6k is in Hime attack, ~12k is in Eidolons. So we're talking about:
41000 vs 36000
So like 14% higher base attack? This percentage doesn't directly relate to Assault, of course. Oh, and Rank gives you an atk bonus as well, further closing the gap. But I believe this to be quite small, so let's just ignore that.

You completed misunderstood what I meant by saying "160% assault on top of garbage attack is still garbage." I thought it was a fairly easy to understand example of how assault bonuses depend heavily on attack stats to even matter. Everytime I have this discussion, mono grid users toss around assault bonuses without their attack value attached, as if it means anything.

And once again we've come to the topic of "Who deals the most damage?" which I believe I've already said mono SR grids do, and that this isn't what the discussion is about. Rainbow is a utility build that gives all your teams about the same strength, while doing similar (but less) damage to a mono grid user. While at the same time being able to take hits a lot better.

Essentially, rainbow is a build that sacrifices some damage for more versatility and to start reliably farming Ultimate and Ragnaroks at a faster pace than mono grid users can.

[Slashley]

Everytime I have this discussion, mono grid users toss around assault bonuses without their attack value attached, as if it means anything.Which I did state earlier...
-- Rainbow is a utility build that gives all your teams about the same strength, while doing similar (but less) damage to a mono grid user. While at the same time being able to take hits a lot better.

Essentially, rainbow is a build that sacrifices some damage for more versatility and to start reliably farming Ultimate and Ragnaroks at a faster pace than mono grid users can.I still don't see where this "similar" or "faster pace" come from. Going mono gives you more damage, period. Need to live longer? Swap to rainbow. And you're not even behind "true" rainbow users. Hell, you're probably AHEAD of them.

Going mono just seems like a win-win. The only downside is more work for more power.

[BakaHentai]

Which I did state earlier...I still don't see where this "similar" or "faster pace" come from. Going mono gives you more damage, period. Need to live longer? Swap to rainbow. And you're not even behind "true" rainbow users. Hell, you're probably AHEAD of them.

Going mono just seems like a win-win. The only downside is more work for more power.

A win-win huh? Almost every mono user I've known has struggled against several different Ragnaroks, including players who've been around as long as I have. Meanwhile, I've coasted smoothly against almost every single event we've had. And as far as I've seen, I'm the only player who managed to solo Ragnarok Dullahan, despite her 1 turn, instant death debuff spam while raging.

And "similar" and "faster pace" is coming from what this topic has been about.

If two players started the game at the same time, one goes mono and one goes rainbow. The mono user would do slightly more damage than the rainbow user, but the rainbow user would reliably start farming events faster than the mono grid user would because the rainbow user would always have -25% damage reduction and the mono grid user wouldn't.

Like all other players, for some reason you'd be quick to point out "well then mono grid user would just go rainbow to survive," but that isn't going to work. A mono user would be pumping all of their enhance mats into SR weapons for the team they plan on maining first and most of their power would come from SLs and not from stats.

Meanwhile, the rainbow user would be pumping resources into all the weapons with the highest stats first, SRs included. All of their teams would be stronger (notice how I said stronger and not "more damage") than the mono user because of that.

If their main team couldn't clear, (which it most likely won't, in the first few months) the mono grid user would switch to rainbow and a different team with element advantage, but it wouldn't be enough for them to win. First of all, the himes of that team might not even be maxed out, because the mono user never planned to use that team to begin with. And their stats would be far less than that of the rainbow user, especially since Mono users tend to use SSR defenders as fodder, or just simply skip them, which defenders most often have higher base stats than assaults do.

As time goes on, the mono grid user would continue to struggle against Ragnaroks off-element, get destroyed by rags that counter their best team, and destroy rags that their best team counters.

The rainbow user would not destroy any ragnarok element but they also wouldn't struggle against any either, so long as they have Mordred.

And like I said earlier, you can shoot for more damage if you wish, but the extra damage you get from a mono SR grid is not at all needed to clear/farm content in a quick and effecient manner.

[Unregistered]

Sorry to jump in but are you saying 'mono' is a player just using a single element team only? Because reading this topic I've been under the assumption this talk of mono is just the weapon grid. Players can and still use a different team for each element and have separate mono weapon grid for each team. This will not only give them more damage but also the elemental advantages.

[BakaHentai]

Sorry to jump in but are you saying 'mono' is a player just using a single element team only? Because reading this topic I've been under the assumption this talk of mono is just the weapon grid. Players can and still use a different team for each element and have separate mono weapon grid for each team. This will not only give them more damage but also the elemental advantages.

Well, yes, some mono users build into all teams, but this is a process that takes a long time to do. Usually they start out with 1 team and max the grid, or nearly max it and then add on the next team after.

By the time a mono user finishes all of their teams, a rainbow user would have nearly a full mono grid for all of their teams as well. Some rainbow players might even check future events for the best Assault SRs and add those to their grids too.

Endgame they would essentially be the same, the only difference is the rainbow user went through a lot less stress and resources to get there.

[Unregistered]

Well, yes, some mono users build into all teams, but this is a process that takes a long time to do. Usually they start out with 1 team and max the grid, or nearly max it and then add on the next team after.

By the time a mono user finishes all of their teams, a rainbow user would have nearly a full mono grid for all of their teams as well. Some rainbow players might even check future events for the best Assault SRs and add those to their grids too.

Endgame they would essentially be the same, the only difference is the rainbow user went through a lot less stress and resources to get there.

I think your assumption of mono players is wrong. You seem to be under the belief that mono players don't move onto a new team until they finish the first, that isn't true at all. At the very least not anything I've seen from my time lurking here and my own experience. I'm sure there are some users that just focus on 1 or 2 teams but many players I've met in-game, in my union and seen on this forum have a decently strong team of each element but they don't go to the point of fully maxing out their entire grid before moving on to another, they focus on them depending on the event, get it strong enough they can clear the event and use/save resources for the next event. You can find some players do put more resources into one team over their others mostly because it has their favorite girls or their best kamihimes but it doesn't change that they still work on all of their teams.

For any new player, both styles follow the same kind of progression: changing teams for each event, leveling weapons to suit the current event and the next event. The real difference here is that rainbow grid may users struggle early on because of lack of damage and HP if base value from their weapon grid isn't enough and from not having assault or defender weapons of their own element and in the case they do struggle, it will take them longer and cause more difficulties towards progression. While on the other hand, leveling a bunch of SR weapons for each mono grid is in no way stressful or difficult as you can get what you need to level them from gem gacha and in doing so, stronger than using a SSR weapon of a different element as your team, as already proven by several users in the topic.

By the time you get a strong enough rainbow grid, a mono grid player can easily have an equally or stronger team.

[BakaHentai]

I think your assumption of mono players is wrong. You seem to be under the belief that mono players don't move onto a new team until they finish the first, that isn't true at all. At the very least not anything I've seen from my time lurking here and my own experience. I'm sure there are some users that just focus on 1 or 2 teams but many players I've met in-game, in my union and seen on this forum have a decently strong team of each element but they don't go to the point of fully maxing out their entire grid before moving on to another, they focus on them depending on the event, get it strong enough they can clear the event and use/save resources for the next event. You can find some players do put more resources into one team over their others mostly because it has their favorite girls or their best kamihimes but it doesn't change that they still work on all of their teams.

For any new player, both styles follow the same kind of progression: changing teams for each event, leveling weapons to suit the current event and the next event. The real difference here is that rainbow grid may users struggle early on because of lack of damage and HP if base value from their weapon grid isn't enough and from not having assault or defender weapons of their own element and in the case they do struggle, it will take them longer and cause more difficulties towards progression. While on the other hand, leveling a bunch of SR weapons for each mono grid is in no way stressful or difficult as you can get what you need to level them from gem gacha and in doing so, stronger than using a SSR weapon of a different element as your team, as already proven by several users in the topic.

By the time you get a strong enough rainbow grid, a mono grid player can easily have an equally or stronger team.

This is actually false. Most mono players never branch out to other elements until after a few months of play--when they start to realize that maining 1 team just isn't going to cut it, or they get lucky with pulls and suddenly have a new best team.

I also like how so many players are quick to assume rainbow would be weaker to start with, when they've pretty much only used mono grids the entire time.

I on the other hand have done both on 2 seperate accounts. The first account I went rainbow and the 2nd I went mono. And the first account had a much easier time with events due to element advantage, to the point where I abandoned a mono grid and shifted to rainbow + element advantage on the 2nd account as well. And just to clarify, the rainbow account had pretty shoddy himes. The mono grid account on the other hand was a reroll and started off with Satan, Tsuk, Beezl and Amon U.

[Unregistered]

So going back to what I said earlier:


Well, element advantage is really more relevant in the first of the two decision points.

The first decision point is:
Focus on developing 1 primary/1 secondary team (should be the quickest to reach its ceiling)
OR
Rotate elements to match the event

If you pick the former, then rainbow isn't even a thing to think about.

If you pick the latter, the next decision to make is:
Work on only SSR weapons; work with the rainbow grid as you collect more SSRs over the longterm
OR
You work on SR weapons too to get closer to monogrids for each element while waiting for SSRs


What I bolded? Apparently we don't have consistent shorthand terminology for those ideas. In this thread, we see 'mono grid' refer to both those going for the dedicated primary/secondary element strategy, as well as the last idea where you match element against event & fill out with SRs (ie the slower 6-element version of the former).

[Unregistered]

The first account I went rainbow and the 2nd I went mono. And the first account had a much easier time with events due to element advantage, to the point where I abandoned a mono grid and shifted to rainbow + element advantage on the 2nd account as well. And just to clarify, the rainbow account had pretty shoddy himes. The mono grid account on the other hand was a reroll and started off with Satan, Tsuk, Beezl and Amon U.

The topic is about Mono GRID vs Rainbow GRID, right ? Where is the elemental advantage comming from ?

And besides, when you're starting and have crappy himes of an element, sometimes you're better off switching to an other element.
I started playing 4 months ago, and still don't have a fuul roster of thunder Himes (with only Baal as a SR, the rest are Rs).

[BakaHentai]

So going back to what I said earlier:



What I bolded? Apparently we don't have consistent shorthand terminology for those ideas. In this thread, we see 'mono grid' refer to both those going for the dedicated primary/secondary element strategy, as well as the last idea where you match element against event & fill out with SRs (ie the slower 6-element version of the former).

That's just a given when it comes dealing with many different players online. Some people view mono as players who use only one team, some view it as only a grid, some view rainbow as players who main all elements, and others view rainbow as just the grid.

When it comes to this post however, it is a comparasion between starter and mid-game grids. Which is refering to a rainbow grid + element advantage vs a main team + a mono grid filled with mostly with SR assaults.

[BakaHentai]

The topic is about Mono GRID vs Rainbow GRID, right ? Where is the elemental advantage comming from ?

And besides, when you're starting and have crappy himes of an element, sometimes you're better off switching to an other element.
I started playing 4 months ago, and still don't have a fuul roster of thunder Himes (with only Baal as a SR, the rest are Rs).

Uh. Not sure why I have to explain this, shouldn't be that hard to think about on your own, or at least I thought so. The reason why element advantage is mentioned is because a rainbow user would always have it. Mono grid users on the other hand would mostly be fighting off-element.

Try to think a little before responding.

[Unregistered]

This is actually false. Most mono players never branch out to other elements until after a few months of play--when they start to realize that maining 1 team just isn't going to cut it, or they get lucky with pulls and suddenly have a new best team.

I also like how so many players are quick to assume rainbow would be weaker to start with, when they've pretty much only used mono grids the entire time.

I on the other hand have done both on 2 seperate accounts. The first account I went rainbow and the 2nd I went mono. And the first account had a much easier time with events due to element advantage, to the point where I abandoned a mono grid and shifted to rainbow + element advantage on the 2nd account as well. And just to clarify, the rainbow account had pretty shoddy himes. The mono grid account on the other hand was a reroll and started off with Satan, Tsuk, Beezl and Amon U.

It isn't false. I'm not sure where you're getting your information as it seems to be the cause of entire problem here.

[BakaHentai]

It isn't false. I'm not sure where you're getting your information as it seems to be the cause of entire problem here.

Yeah, I'm sure that's the problem. It's not as if there isn't guides or anything thing else out there that reccomend starting off with 1 team or anything of that nature. Clearly all players start the early and mid-game by slowly adding several different element SR weapons to every single grid, rather than having some sort of focus by farming raids for assault weapons for their main team to fill their main team grid faster.

That was sarcasm by the way. Just in case you didn't think that through either.

You seem to be confusing a mono grid build with a half mix of the rainbow and mono build methods.

[Slashley]

--
Like all other players, for some reason you'd be quick to point out "well then mono grid user would just go rainbow to survive," but that isn't going to work. A mono user would be pumping all of their enhance mats into SR weapons for the team they plan on maining first and most of their power would come from SLs and not from stats.

Meanwhile, the rainbow user would be pumping resources into all the weapons with the highest stats first, SRs included. All of their teams would be stronger (notice how I said stronger and not "more damage") than the mono user because of that.

If their main team couldn't clear, (which it most likely won't, in the first few months) the mono grid user would switch to rainbow and a different team with element advantage, but it wouldn't be enough for them to win.... what?
Just listen to yourself. You're basically saying "If you give equal resources to two players, the player who invests willy nilly here and there will be better in EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE."
Which... is entirely in reverse. When all you have is base stats, your damage output is absolutely miserable. Have you played around in a damage calc and seen just how little you need to increase your damage dealt by using a SR weapon? Swapping a 2200 off-element weapon for a 1000 attack slvl5 SR (that's level ~50 for a 1500 max attack SR and 10 R weapons) is a damage increase. Repeat that a few times, and for a pittance of an investment, your damage output has increased a ton. And oh look, now you're a monogrid user.

For the record, my weapon grids are:
Thunder: 100% + 30%
Fire: 90% + 10%
Water: 77% + 17%
Dark: 62% + 16%
Wind: 50% + 23%
Light: Nope.

What about you? You have what, 32% + 32% ish per element? Just try inputting a 5000 damage base damage higher and play around with Assault% and you'll quickly notice that your advantage isn't... quite... an advantage. At all. The only element where I expect you'd beat me in is Wind. After this raid event is over, my Wind% will explode since I need it for clearing Thunder Accessory Quests. What about you?
How are you going to grow your Wind power? Oh, you're going to gain one Wind weapon in a month, and another in two months?
Well, you'll probably catch up to my Wind team again at that point, about seven weeks later. That's nice.
-- First of all, the himes of that team might not even be maxed out, because the mono user never planned to use that team to begin with.W-What? Why are you assuming that mono users are completely retarded? Why would anyone leave any Hime ever under maximum level? This game throws a ridiculous amount of exp at you during Advents, which you can clear with 4 Hime or even 3 often enough, that leaves you with 2-3 leveling slots. Everyone should have all Hime at max level at all times.

Come on man, don't base your ideals around somebody being stupid.

[sanahtlig]

This discussion gained momentum pretty quickly.

Focusing resources (especially weapon skill enhancement) on a single element for mid and late game has the following advantages:

You only need to farm a fraction of the content to achieve full potential
You can build up a versatile team with good access to debuffs, a main bottleneck in KamiPro
You can use variations of the same team for all content, so it's a lower learning curve
You can easily build the team into a juggernaut with 1-3 Miracle tickets

That's why I recommend it in my guide for beginners. This discussion about max damage potential is sort of besides the point. What I'd like to see is a comparison of the progression tiers between the mono-team method and the rainbow SSR method. Given finite skill enhancement resources, how do these teams compare at various levels of investment? I have a weapon enhancement tool that should make this comparison straightforward.

Also, with the introduction of Accessory Quests, and eventually Ragnarok Disasters, is it even practical to farm every element simultaneously? Even for those who play around the clock, I'm not sure AP regenerates fast enough to farm Accessory Quests, farm Daily Quests for materials for Accessory Quests, and get max rewards in every event. And even if it is possible, seems like the game becomes a full-time job at that point.

[BakaHentai]

This discussion gained momentum pretty quickly.

Focusing resources (especially weapon skill enhancement) on a single element for mid and late game has the following advantages:

You only need to farm a fraction of the content to achieve full potential
You can build up a versatile team with good access to debuffs, a main bottleneck in KamiPro
You can use variations of the same team for all content, so it's a lower learning curve
You can easily build the team into a juggernaut with 1-3 Miracle tickets

That's why I recommend it in my guide for beginners. This discussion about max damage potential is sort of besides the point. What I'd like to see is a comparison of the progression tiers between the mono-team method and the rainbow SSR method. Given finite skill enhancement resources, how do these teams compare at various levels of investment? I have a weapon enhancement tool that should make this comparison straightforward.

Also, with the introduction of Accessory Quests, and eventually Ragnarok Disasters, is it even practical to farm every element simultaneously? Even for those who play around the clock, I'm not sure AP regenerates fast enough to farm Accessory Quests, farm Daily Quests for materials for Accessory Quests, and get max rewards in every event. And even if it is possible, seems like the game becomes a full-time job at that point.

You'll never reach full potential with just one element. Sure, you can clear things, but there will be content that makes you wish you spent a little more time and effort on a certain team. And if your team and grid is maxed or nearly maxed out, the only way to increase your potential is through element advantage, which you will only have against one other element.

Also, a good team with a good grid + element advantage, will always outpreform a 'perfect team' + a good grid, while fighting off-element.

There's no need to put all of your eggs in one basket, especially with the consideration of M tickets. Focusing on one team just makes the game harder for yourself, because most off-element content is a pain for you to deal with, which is the only reason why farming for all elements at the same time sounds like a full-time job and utterly pointless. If all of your teams have been taken care of, even stuff like Stage 4 accessory quests isn't difficult to do on each of them. I know some people who take about 20+ mintues on Stage 4 due to having to use teams with weaker grids. Meanwhile, stage 4 took my thunder and water teams about 8 - 9 minutes to clear--while watching animations. Neither of which are my strongest teams. In fact, water is one of my weakest elements.

Let's not forget that having several good teams would also speed up and lessen the time it takes to strengthen your other elements.

As for the materials--with the new gem quests--it's now a waste to spend your AP on standard/expert disaster raids. All you need is an alt for raids to blow BP on. Most of the disaster assaults are already being cycled out and you don't even need the help of SR fodder anymore. With a decent rank, and letting your AP nearly cap out before each gem quest--plus 2 HEs--can net you close to 80k gems. And provided you sell back Ns and R eidolons, 80k is usually enough to do 100 x10 gem pulls. You can easily manage to do this every day, as long as it fits your schedule. By doing 100 x10 gems pulls everyday, you get so much R weapons that it allows you to greatly accelerate your SL enhancment progress.

By stacking several R weapons on top of each other to SL 2, you can easily get an SSR from SL 11 to SL 20. Before, this would have been unwise, but with 100 gem pulls everyday, there's just no point in trying to be frugal with R weapon fodder. Counting all the weapons I own and use for my grids, there's about 680 SLs--of which I've currently enhanced a total of around 553. So 553/680 SLs completed thus far. If I continue my pace of 100 gem pulls a day, I estimate I will have completely maxed out my total SLs within a month's time (counting future event weapons within that time).

It sounds like a lot of work, and something that would sink tons of HEs, but it really isn't. Let's also not forget that before long, we'll be getting HEs from gem pulls, so it's not going to be a limited resource.

And once again this discussion was never about max damage potential. It's quite obvious that a mono SSR assault grid is one of the best ways to do that. But that's endgame, and we haven't reached that point. This discussion is about utility. It's about which grid type builds into endgame better, which grid type handles all events the best. A comparison between which grid type is more versatile and less painful.

[sanahtlig]

Also, a good team with a good grid + element advantage, will always outpreform a 'perfect team' + a good grid, while fighting off-element.
Choosing to invest in all elements doesn't mean you'll have a "good" team for every element. If I have a handpicked Water team, and no other SSRs, my weakest element's team may be quite terrible. If I spread out my Miracle ticket picks, I may end up with 2-3 good teams and 3-4 mediocre ones. My Water team isn't even all that good right now--I only have 1 kamihime I'd deem optimal. But it'll improve significantly with each Miracle ticket. Cthulhu alone will dramatically increase my damage (+36%). That's comparable to what a +100% elemental attack eidolon would provide.


Focusing on one team just makes the game harder for yourself, because most off-element content is a pain for you to deal with, which is the only reason why farming for all elements at the same time sounds like a full-time job and utterly pointless.
I spend most of my time doing trivial content (e.g., Advent Ultimates, Daily quests) or content that is made trivial by the participation of other players (e.g., Raid and Union events). Time required is less determined by the strength of one's team, and more by one's progress quota. I don't get max rewards in most Raid events not because they're too difficult, but because I can't be bothered to start or join 200 battles. Same with Advents. Frankly I can't imagine trying to skill level 6 teams at once. Even skill leveling a single SSR is a chore. It's not hard--I long ago worked out the math. It's just tedious. I'd automate it if I could.


As for the materials--with the new gem quests--it's now a waste to spend your AP on standard/expert disaster raids.
I farmed Disasters for skill leveling fodder maybe for the first month. After that, I got SRs from Raid events faster than I'm willing to use them. I gave up on spawning with alts because, again, that wastes too much time.


It sounds like a lot of work, and something that would sink tons of HEs, but it really isn't.
It sounds like you play this game a lot more than I do. I'd rather write about and discuss the game than play it, honestly.

I'm less concerned with achieving an optimal result and more with being able to clear all content with minimal investment. Could I do better if I played this game as a full-time job? Probably. Do I want to? No. And I expect that a lot of my readers are in the same camp.

Guild Orders are the one content type I can think of where having multiple strong elemental teams would be useful. But as long as I'm farming for only one team, decreased farming efficiency shouldn't slow progression.

[BakaHentai]

Choosing to invest in all elements doesn't mean you'll have a "good" team for every element. If I have a handpicked Water team, and no other SSRs, my weakest element's team may be quite terrible. If I spread out my Miracle ticket picks, I may end up with 2-3 good teams and 3-4 mediocre ones. My Water team isn't even all that good right now--I only have 1 kamihime I'd deem optimal. But it'll improve significantly with each Miracle ticket. Cthulhu alone will dramatically increase my damage (+36%). That's comparable to what a +100% elemental attack eidolon would provide.


I spend most of my time doing trivial content (e.g., Advent Ultimates, Daily quests) or content that is made trivial by the participation of other players (e.g., Raid and Union events). Time required is less determined by the strength of one's team, and more by one's progress quota. I don't get max rewards in most Raid events not because they're too difficult, but because I can't be bothered to start or join 200 battles. Same with Advents. Frankly I can't imagine trying to skill level 6 teams at once. Even skill leveling a single SSR is a chore. It's not hard--I long ago worked out the math. It's just tedious. I'd automate it if I could.


I farmed Disasters for skill leveling fodder maybe for the first month. After that, I got SRs from Raid events faster than I'm willing to use them. I gave up on spawning with alts because, again, that wastes too much time.


It sounds like you play this game a lot more than I do. I'd rather write about and discuss the game than play it, honestly.

I'm less concerned with achieving an optimal result and more with being able to clear all content with minimal investment. Could I do better if I played this game as a full-time job? Probably. Do I want to? No. And I expect that a lot of my readers are in the same camp.

Guild Orders are the one content type I can think of where having multiple strong elemental teams would be useful. But as long as I'm farming for only one team, decreased farming efficiency shouldn't slow progression.

First of all, choosing to invest in all elements does in fact guarantee you will have good teams in all elements. The grid does most of the work, himes just make things a little better. You don't need a full team of SSR himes in order to have a strong, solid team. As long as you do your dailies and any other content that gives jewels, the gacha will provide you with more than enough himes to choose from. Doesn't matter if you're f2p or a whale.

I don't see how you can call those events 'trival' when they provide weapons and items to increase your strength for future content. The only way any of this content would be trival, is if you're a fat whale with tons of MLB gacha SSRs. And if that's the case, then yeah, this content would be trivial to you. Most players don't or can't spend that much money on the game.

Enhancing SSR SLs is not a chore, and this is coming from someone who does it more than most other players. Before Gem Quests came, it was a waiting game. With gem quests however, it's just feeding R weapons into whatever SSR you chose each day--you could even consider it nothing more than a 'daily quest'. The only annoying part is selling back Ns and R eidolons, but that will soon be fixed with the autosell feature.

Wastes too much time? It takes less than a minute to spawn a raid on your alt, and the alt doesn't have to do anything but stand there. The only thing that takes a little time is clearing quests on the alt to the point where they can spend raids, which doesn't take long at all. You could easily do it over several days if you're that lazy about it. It's more than worth the 'effort'--if you can even call it that.

Well, if you skip events and intentionally fail to farm at least the event SSRs, then yeah, I do play more than you. Other than that though, I just try to prevent my AP from capping out and AAB. It's very easy to max out rewards on raid events, even more so with the new system. Hell, if you can prevent you AP/BP from capping out for too long, regen alone will get you pretty close.

So actively playing events--in a game that ultimately does not matter, to anyone's future--is a waste of time, but doing your own research, spending hours upon hours writing guides and calculations, and discussing gameplay and strategy--with players who won't even remember you when they stop playing this game--is completely worthwhile? Ok then. Whatever suits you. Both are a waste of time, the latter even more so. But, that's exactly what people want. They want something to do, to prevent boredom, or to get their mind off of other things.

Though now I understand why you keep referring to actively playing events as a full-time job, because that's exactly what this game is to you. You spend so much time thinking, writing, and talking about it, that you hardly have time to actually sit down and play. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that doesn't mean the game is a full-time job for everyone else.

[Slashley]

First of all, choosing to invest in all elements does in fact guarantee you will have good teams in all elements. The grid does most of the work, himes just make things a little better. You don't need a full team of SSR himes in order to have a strong, solid team.What sort of fantasy world do you live in? Debuffs are the most important thing, and many elements don't have any real access to them - particularly not without SSR Himes.
As long as you do your dailies and any other content that gives jewels, the gacha will provide you with more than enough himes to choose from. Doesn't matter if you're f2p or a whale.Would you mind explaining all your teams so that I could get a grasp on what on Earth are talking about?

It's like we're not even playing the same game.
-- The only way any of this content would be trival, is if you're a fat whale with tons of MLB gacha SSRs. And if that's the case, then yeah, this content would be trivial to you. Most players don't or can't spend that much money on the game.Except that, you know, Gacha SSRs are relatively bad. Sure, they're an upgrade - but not much. Not before Belial and friends, that is.
So actively playing events--in a game that ultimately does not matter, to anyone's future--is a waste of time, but doing your own research, spending hours upon hours writing guides and calculations, and discussing gameplay and strategy--with players who won't even remember you when they stop playing this game--is completely worthwhile?People enjoy different things. And the things Sanahtlig does benefit you too. At least it would, should you listen.

[Unregistered]

This thread has become an endless pit of retardation starring with Slashey's blatant ignorance/incompetence and BakaHentai's shitty behavior, insecurities and legitimately stupid reiterations of poor man's "common sense".
Get a room you two, will ya? It just feels like a toddler fight at this point, it's clear that one is insecure as a human being and NEEDS the approval of people in the internet to feel better and can't get a no as an answer and it's also clear that another one isn't a brilliant person.

[sanahtlig]

I don't see how you can call those events 'trival' when they provide weapons and items to increase your strength for future content.
By "trivial" I mean not challenging, like something I could auto-battle. That was in response to you claiming that deficiencies in my build might be costing me effort/time.


I just try to prevent my AP from capping out and AAB.
I don't know what "AAB" is, but preventing AP from capping means you're playing this game periodically throughout the entire day. That's already beyond a typical user.


First of all, choosing to invest in all elements does in fact guarantee you will have good teams in all elements.
As Slashley pointed out, debuffs are really important. The right combination will reduce incoming damage by 70% (10k hit to 3k) and double outgoing damage (15k to 30k). A soul can only bring 2 of the 5 debuffs you need to reach the caps. Most teams will need at least 3 of those + Black Propaganda for challenging content.


Enhancing SSR SLs is not a chore
It is with heavy interface lag.


It takes less than a minute to spawn a raid on your alt
Recovering from the automatic disconnects and then navigating the interface adds significant time to each attempt. It takes much longer than it needs to, and it's tedious. Not something I want to do multiple times a day.


if you can prevent you AP/BP from capping out for too long, regen alone will get you pretty close.
So yes, you're playing the game at a minimum of 2hr intervals every day. Pretty much all day every day. I did that too: for the first month or so.

There's nothing wrong with that, but we're comparing builds between a player who plays constantly (you), and one that doesn't (me). Then you/others claim that your method is equal to or superior to mine, which is where our disagreement lies. I'm achieving comparable results to you with a fraction of the time investment.

Now, you could claim that your method is superior for those with no money and excess time, and that's possible. But I'm not convinced yet. A player could instead spend that time rerolling for triple same-element SSRs or some such. Likewise, I'm not convinced that spreading Miracle ticket picks over multiple elements is the best use of funds.

[Yolodesu]

This thread has become an endless pit of retardation

Clearly. While everyone knows rainbow users shouldn't be taken seriously. Because we all know how they look like!

8279

[Unregistered]

Clearly. While everyone knows rainbow users shouldn't be taken seriously. Because we all know how they look like!

8279

You're my spirit animal, buddy

[Slashley]

This thread has become an endless pit of retardation starring with Slashey's blatant ignorance/incompetence and BakaHentai's shitty behavior, insecurities and legitimately stupid reiterations of poor man's "common sense".Pot, meet kettle.

Feel free to join in with an actual argument.

[BakaHentai]

What sort of fantasy world do you live in? Debuffs are the most important thing, and many elements don't have any real access to them - particularly not without SSR Himes.Would you mind explaining all your teams so that I could get a grasp on what on Earth are talking about?

It's like we're not even playing the same game.Except that, you know, Gacha SSRs are relatively bad. Sure, they're an upgrade - but not much. Not before Belial and friends, that is.People enjoy different things. And the things Sanahtlig does benefit you too. At least it would, should you listen.

You mention a lack of debuffs as if Gawain, D'art, Mord, and Joan aren't options as souls. Along with Ambush, SniperShot, and Trial By Jury for EX abilities. Would it be better to have debuffs covered on himes? Of course, but that's not a wise expectation when you main all element. Not until later at least. It doesn't take much brain power to get around -30/-30%+ in debuffs. Which is all you really need. Anything beyond that is just dandy. Most teams can get around -30/30% fairly easily. With wise soul + EX combos and a decent collection of himes. Long time players should have no trouble with this whatsoever.

And as for my teams:
Dark: Amon U, Satan, Hades, Beelze.
Light: Sol, Michael, Diana, Metatron.
Thunder: Brahma, Thor, Nemesis, Hermod.
Water: Poseidon, Ryu-Oh, Oceanus, Kikiur-Hime.
Wind: Cronus, Maeve, Krampus, Cybele.
Fire: Yamaraja, Motu, Brynhildr, Amon (fire).

You'd probably accuse me of whaling, but more than half of those SSRs came from rerolling and jewel pulls. The others came from SSR hime guarantee tickets, which are the only things I spend money on. And M tickets of course.

What are you even saying? Do you even know what a whale is? Since when was gacha SSRs limited to Eidolons only? My god you need to start putting more thought into your responses. This is just getting sad.

First of all, guides are for people who can't think for themselves or don't care to try and learn the game on their own. Second, there's no point in me ever checking into any of Sana's guides or tools (Never have, never will). I'm one of the most successful players in Nutaku KH following my own advice. There's not a single Advent Ragnarok I couldn't beat--had to use about 5 - 8 elixirs total, I can't recall the exact number--but a clear is still a clear. This is counting all Advent Rags we've seen so far.

Not only that, but all my teams can solo raid Ragnaroks, if I ever feel like doing it just for kicks. And Accessory Quests? I already have a huge stockpile of materials to pay for entry, just by doing the 25 AP SP quest for dailies, everyday, until this point. I've also successfully cleared Stage 4 12 times so far. And lastly, I currently lead one of the top-tier unions in Nutaku KH. Not only that, but we are the only Union that had to expand to a second union due to how many players wanted to join.

A total of 60 members, with a leader who is arguably the most disliked player in this game? How does that happen? I'll tell you how. Because I know exactly what I'm doing. I don't need advice from others. The path I forge is the best path to success. Listening to others advice would only hinder my progress.

Not saying everyone else is stupid, they are just (mostly) wrong. And that's ok. That's how normal people are.

[ohjel]

I think the question here is time. No one will argue that with 6+months and 200+ dollars like BakaHentai has invested that you can't get a good rainbow grid. The thing is that with one $50 (in theory) miracle ticket and following sanahtlig's guides, your mono element team can be clearing ults within a month and rags in 2 months. And with considerably less grinding since you only need 1 team leveled. And if your mono team can handle all the non resist element content at max difficulty (5/6 of the events say), that may be enough for many people.

[BakaHentai]

By "trivial" I mean not challenging, like something I could auto-battle. That was in response to you claiming that deficiencies in my build might be costing me effort/time.


I don't know what "AAB" is, but preventing AP from capping means you're playing this game periodically throughout the entire day. That's already beyond a typical user.


As Slashley pointed out, debuffs are really important. The right combination will reduce incoming damage by 70% (10k hit to 3k) and double outgoing damage (15k to 30k). A soul can only bring 2 of the 5 debuffs you need to reach the caps. Most teams will need at least 3 of those + Black Propaganda for challenging content.


It is with heavy interface lag.


Recovering from the automatic disconnects and then navigating the interface adds significant time to each attempt. It takes much longer than it needs to, and it's tedious. Not something I want to do multiple times a day.


So yes, you're playing the game at a minimum of 2hr intervals every day. Pretty much all day every day. I did that too: for the first month or so.

There's nothing wrong with that, but we're comparing builds between a player who plays constantly (you), and one that doesn't (me). Then you/others claim that your method is equal to or superior to mine, which is where our disagreement lies. I'm achieving comparable results to you with a fraction of the time investment.

Now, you could claim that your method is superior for those with no money and excess time, and that's possible. But I'm not convinced yet. A player could instead spend that time rerolling for triple same-element SSRs or some such. Likewise, I'm not convinced that spreading Miracle ticket picks over multiple elements is the best use of funds.

How do you spend so much time thinking about the game and not know what AAB is? AB = Auto Battle, AAB = Auto Ability Battle. And successful AABing costs you no time at all, besides clicking twice and walking away.

That's actually how a lot of active players play the game, they try their best to prevent AP and BP from capping out. Just because they try to do so doesn't mean they always can. Not sure why I even have to point that out.

The lag is easy to work around. All you do is click Inventory > Eidolons/Weapons. After mass selling both. It takes far less time to do. I figured you of all people would have figured that about by now, but it seems you tunnel in on just the numbers and fail to see much of anything else.

You're assuming how much I play and you're wrong. Union raids are different, but as for other events I just check the game as often as I can, hit AAB and return to what I was doing before.

And no. Your build path is best for players who hardly play the game. My build path is best for those who log in daily and complete SSR collecting from each event. Which isn't hard or time consuming to do, with AAB, regen, and some seeds/elixirs.

Like I said earlier. There's no point in putting all of your eggs into one basket. You just make the game more of a chore for yourself, while assuming it makes things more simplistic and effecient.

[Slashley]

You mention a lack of debuffs as if Gawain, D'art, Mord, and Joan aren't options as souls. Along with Ambush, SniperShot, and Trial By Jury for EX abilities.--Let's go through the tools that you should you should aim for as the minimum:
A Def debuff
A Atk debuff
B debuff
Black Propaganda
Healing
Cleanse/debuff prevention (depending on content)
Dispel (depending on content)

In addition, extremely good to have:
Debuff chance
C Def debuff
C Atk debuff
Combo-

A Soul can bring at most 3 of these 5-7 essential tools, and the rest come from your Hime. In an ideal scenario, your Hime will handle ALL of them, though that's really tough to pull off. In any event, team building is all about providing as many of these tools as possible. Your success is literally tied exactly to how many of these tools you can cover. As such, building one team which is able to do that will vastly overpower many half-assed teams. Your idea of spreading Miracle Ticket love around is... an interesting one, but is unlikely to bring success.

And shit dude, 11 SSR Himes? You have more SSRs than I have, and that's after spending 1k bucks trying to get Karin, plus the guaranteed SSRs. With that luck, no wonder your perception of your ability and the game in general is entirely screwed.
And lastly, I currently lead one of the top-tier union in Nutaku KH. Not only that, but we are the only Union that had to expand to a second union due to how many players wanted to join.

A total of 60 members, with a leader who is arguably the most disliked player in this game? How does that happen? I'll tell you how. Because I know exactly what I'm doing. I don't need advice from others. The path I forge is the best path to success. Listening to others advice would only hinder my progress.So you are correct, BECAUSE you are correct. Well, it's good to know which Union won't last then.
First of all, guides are for people who can't think for themselves or don't care to try and learn the game on my own. Second, there's no point in me ever checking into any of Sana's guides or tools (Never have, never will). I'm one of the most successful players in Nutaku KH following my own advice.Out of curiosity, how did you figure out the difference between Elemental and Character attack, if you never, ever paid any attention to what anyone else is doing?

[ohjel]

For debuffs, just by being the advantage element, you have the equivalent of -25% att down and -30% def down. So even with just sniper shot on top of that you are already at about the same point as someone at the cap in their mono team. So you do get a lot more flexibility with the rainbow team.

[Unregistered]

I'm one of the most successful players in Nutaku KH following my own advice.
(...)
And lastly, I currently lead one of the top-tier unions in Nutaku KH. Not only that, but we are the only Union that had to expand to a second union due to how many players wanted to join.
(...)
Because I know exactly what I'm doing. I don't need advice from others. The path I forge is the best path to success. Listening to others advice would only hinder my progress.

Not saying everyone else is stupid, they are just (mostly) wrong. And that's ok. That's how normal people are.

You do realise just how arrogant this seems ?

And since when do we have rankings ?

How are people supposed to understand frames / Charcter vs elemental attack by themselves ?

[BakaHentai]

Let's go through the tools that you should you should aim for as the minimum:
A Def debuff
A Atk debuff
B debuff
Black Propaganda
Healing
Cleanse/debuff prevention (depending on content)
Dispel (depending on content)

In addition, extremely good to have:
Debuff chance
C Def debuff
C Atk debuff
Combo-

A Soul can bring at most 3 of these 5-7 essential tools, and the rest come from your Hime. In an ideal scenario, your Hime will handle ALL of them, though that's really tough to pull off. In any event, team building is all about providing as many of these tools as possible. Your success is literally tied exactly to how many of these tools you can cover. As such, building one team which is able to do that will vastly overpower many half-assed teams. Your idea of spreading Miracle Ticket love around is... an interesting one, but is unlikely to bring success.

And shit dude, 11 SSR Himes? You have more SSRs than I have, and that's after spending 1k bucks trying to get Karin, plus the guaranteed SSRs. With that luck, no wonder your perception of your ability and the game in general is entirely screwed.So you are correct, BECAUSE you are correct. Well, it's good to know which Union won't last then.Out of curiosity, how did you figure out the difference between Elemental and Character attack, if you never, ever paid any attention to what anyone else is doing?

Yeah, I already pointed that out with my earlier comment about certain souls and EX abilities, but thanks for explaining my thought process for me.

Well, when you're different from others, the game just favors you more. Not something I can control.

No, no. Thinking you're always correct is just being ignorant and a narcissist. Sure I'm a narcissist, but I'm a wise one. I'm correct because I have continually outpreformed countless others who have told me that my build choice is stupid and would only hinder my progress. Yet, I have not seen any proof to those statements and everyone has failed to prove to me why rainbow is a bad choice. The only point they can argue with, is that a mono grid does more damage, which I'm already aware of.

I have to continually repeat myself that I don't play rainbow because I think it does more damage--and that the reason I play it is because it gets you reliably farming events faster and works as a far less stressful and thrifty segway into 6 full mono grids. When you actually need them.
And despite constantly repeating this, my words still fail to reach them and their argument always falls back on, "But mono grids do more damage."

I can't help but shake my head and sigh.

[BakaHentai]

How are people supposed to understand frames / Charcter vs elemental attack by themselves ?

The same way DMM players figured it out, along with most of everything else. By build testing and comparing results. If you can think outside the box and stop relying on others, stuff like this isn't hard to do with a knowledge of simple math.

The best part is, you don't even need to find an exact number or multiplier to know something provides a better bonus over another. In this case, eidolons.

[Slashley]

The same way DMM players figured it out, along with most of everything else. By build testing and comparing results. If you can think outside the box and stop relying on others, stuff like this isn't hard to do with a knowledge of simple math.

The best part is, you don't even need to find an exact number or multiplier to know something provides a better bonus over another. In this case, eidolons.The funny thing is, a rainbow grid can hardly even tell the difference between Elemental and Character attack at this point of the game.

[BakaHentai]

The funny thing is, a rainbow grid can hardly even tell the difference between Elemental and Character attack at this point of the game.

You're wrong and you'd know this if you actually did any testing at all. Even with rainbow, there's quite a big difference between using x2 character, x2 element, and a character/element mix. x2 character provides the least amount of extra damage, x2 element is roughly the same or slightly better--depending on the eidolon and grid assault bonus, and character/element mix is by far the best increase in damage.

[Sfay]

First of all, guides are for people who can't think for themselves or don't care to try and learn the game on their own. Second, there's no point in me ever checking into any of Sana's guides or tools (Never have, never will). I'm one of the most successful players in Nutaku KH following my own advice.

You claim you're doing thing the best possible way when you haven't even tried to look nor understand the way the other people do it. I'm not perfectly English fluent, so I sometimes have trouble to express what I mean, but I'm pretty sure even the English language can express how retarded of a reasoning this is.
Basically what you did was thinking "I guess I'll go for a Rainbow grid" and later you thought "WOW! I can actually clear content! My way of doing things is certainly the best possible one!» Maybe put this way, you'll understand why no one here is taking your words seriously.

You know what a player that truly wants to be at the top does? He looks at what other people do, and then copy the things that actually work and improves what can be improved.

I usually like aiming for an optimized team in this kind of games and tend to be pretty good at it too. What I did when I started playing was asking everyone I could their opinion on a lot of stuff. Eventually I ended up knowing the game enough to make my own opinion and realize a few things people that advised me hadn't.
For example, there's a bunch of things I end up not agreeing with sana's posts or guides, but reading those surely helped me becoming a better player.
I didn't do anything extraordinary, as doing this is the most basic thing to do if you want to reach the highest possible knowledge about a game.
Sadly, you took another route: the "I'll forge my own wobbly knowledge then convince others it's the best one" one.

Another core thing you do when you want to end up better than others in a team building game is Theory crafting. Theory crafting requires some specific skills that I'm lucky enough to have, but hey, how lucky, even if you don't, Sana shared tools that actually allow you to check a decent amount of stuff without needing those skills! I don't use his tools because I prefer doing the calcs myself, but for people who can't, that's like a Godsend! Too bad your ego is so high that you believe relying on others is a proof of weakness. This truly saddens me.


There's not a single Advent Ragnarok I couldn't beat, had to use about 5 - 8 elixirs total can't recall the exact number, (counting all Rags we've encountered so far). But, a clear is still a clear.

Not only that, but all my teams can solo raid Ragnaroks, if I ever feel like doing it just for kicks. And Accessory Quests? I already have a huge stockpile of materials to pay for entry, just by doing the 25 AP SP quest for dailies, everyday, until this point. I've also successfully cleared Stage 4 12 times so far.

Instead of trying to troll others on their brain capabilities, maybe you should try using yours to begin with.
Yes, you can clear the game's content. Congratulations. Because you convinced yourself you were the best player in the world, you also believe that the only reason you were able to clear that content was only because you are yourself.

You really need to realize that there is a variety of different players. The 2 most important factors are their playtime, and their objective while playing this game. You can either spend absolutely all your AP and BP before it's full, or you can play only twice a day when you log in your computer. You can either aim at being as strong as possible or just play casually to spare time.

You keep making fun of other players on this forum that either:
- Have significantly fewer playtime than you do
- Have no will to eventually end up with an optimized lineup

Sana for example enters both categories, but if sana had the time and the will he would without a doubt be a way stronger player than you are, because he is able to actively think about how to become better in a scientific way rather than guessing something then assuming it's the ultimate truth based on a biased sample size of 1 player.


Of course, rainbow grids have a lot of merits, especially when you first aim at beating mid-game content or when you don't want to think too much about the way to level up your grid nor spend too much time on it.
However, when you want to stand on top like yourself or myself, Rainbow grid is NOT an option. That is a fact you can REALLY EASILY understand by just running a bunch of calcs. I took me 20 minutes of calculations to realize that, while you have been doing things wrong for almost a year now because you're too stubborn to even admit you could be wrong and just calc it yourself.


We have a similar goal in game, and our playtime is probably about the same, but guess what? I have a finished mono grid, Fire precisely, along an advanced Thunder Grid, and I'm also able to solo Raid Rags or clear Tier 4 Acc quests without using Elixirs. Must be pretty shocking to hear, isn't it, someone got on your level doing things in a way that isn't yours after all.
Even better: I started playing Kamipro in the middle of summer. Basically, that means my total playtime is about half of yours, yet I'm able to clear the content you were so proud to clear yourself.

Now imagine not having those 5 extra months of playtime, or going back 5 months ago. Would you have been able to clear Tier 4 back then? I guess not, your Kami are regularly dying even now after all. That is the limit of a rainbow grid and a result of doing things wrong in general.
You built your whole reasoning on the fact that you know a few people that didn't do things your way and ended up getting worse results, too bad you finally met someone who didn't do things your way but actually had as much time and motivation as you do.

Oh, in case you want to retort by saying that I whaled, be aware that I have 3 less SSR Kami than you do.

Ah, by the way, I use D'artagnan with Snatch 2 as an EX skill on the Wind boss, which means my accessory farming potential is actually higher than yours. If I was in your shoes and was convinced I was the best player ever and learnt that someone who started playing 5 months after I did had better farming potential, I would feel extremely humiliated.




So now, if you could please shut the fuck up and let the people that actually have something to say discuss, everyone would be happier. It's pretty tiring to read you saying "Please notice that I exist and acknowledge that I'm better than you" twice a day.

Ah, and you don't need to answer to this, I already know what you will answer, everyone knows, you're just that predictable, so not saying anything will save your and our time. You're most likely going to answer anyways, but whatever.

And sorry to the people who know me to show such an unsightly side of myself, but this idiot was really getting on my nerves.

[BakaHentai]

You claim you're doing thing the best possible way when you haven't even tried to look nor understand the way the other people do it. I'm not perfectly English fluent, so I sometimes have trouble to express what I mean, but I'm pretty sure even the English language can express how retarded of a reasoning this is.
Basically what you did was thinking "I guess I'll go for a Rainbow grid" and later you thought "WOW! I can actually clear content! My way of doing things is certainly the best possible one!» Maybe put this way, you'll understand why no one here is taking your words seriously.

You know what a player that truly wants to be at the top does? He looks at what other people do, and then copy the things that actually work and improves what can be improved.

I usually like aiming for an optimized team in this kind of games and tend to be pretty good at it too. What I did when I started playing was asking everyone I could their opinion on a lot of stuff. Eventually I ended up knowing the game enough to make my own opinion and realize a few things people that advised me hadn't.
For example, there's a bunch of things I end up not agreeing with sana's posts or guides, but reading those surely helped me becoming a better player.
I didn't do anything extraordinary, as doing this is the most basic thing to do if you want to reach the highest possible knowledge about a game.
Sadly, you took another route: the "I'll forge my own wobbly knowledge then convince others it's the best one" one.

Another core thing you do when you want to end up better than others in a team building game is Theory crafting. Theory crafting requires some specific skills that I'm lucky enough to have, but hey, how lucky, even if you don't, Sana shared tools that actually allow you to check a decent amount of stuff without needing those skills! I don't use his tools because I prefer doing the calcs myself, but for people who can't, that's like a Godsend! Too bad your ego is so high that you believe relying on others is a proof of weakness. This truly saddens me.



Instead of trying to troll others on their brain capabilities, maybe you should try using yours to begin with.
Yes, you can clear the game's content. Congratulations. Because you convinced yourself you were the best player in the world, you also believe that the only reason you were able to clear that content was only because you are yourself.

You really need to realize that there is a variety of different players. The 2 most important factors are their playtime, and their objective while playing this game. You can either spend absolutely all your AP and BP before it's full, or you can play only twice a day when you log in your computer. You can either aim at being as strong as possible or just play casually to spare time.

You keep making fun of other players on this forum that either:
- Have significantly fewer playtime than you do
- Have no will to eventually end up with an optimized lineup

Sana for example enters both categories, but if sana had the time and the will he would without a doubt be a way stronger player than you are, because he is able to actively think about how to become better in a scientific way rather than guessing something then assuming it's the ultimate truth based on a biased sample size of 1 player.


Of course, rainbow grids have a lot of merits, especially when you first aim at beating mid-game content or when you don't want to think too much about the way to level up your grid nor spend too much time on it.
However, when you want to stand on top like yourself or myself, Rainbow grid is NOT an option. That is a fact you can REALLY EASILY understand by just running a bunch of calcs. I took me 20 minutes of calculations to realize that, while you have been doing things wrong for almost a year now because you're too stubborn to even admit you could be wrong and just calc it yourself.


We have a similar goal in game, and our playtime is probably about the same, but guess what? I have a finished mono grid, Fire precisely, along an advanced Thunder Grid, and I'm also able to solo Raid Rags or clear Tier 4 Acc quests without using Elixirs. Must be pretty shocking to hear, isn't it, someone got on your level doing things in a way that isn't yours after all.
Even better: I started playing Kamipro in the middle of summer. Basically, that means my total playtime is about half of yours, yet I'm able to clear the content you were so proud to clear yourself.

Now imagine not having those 5 extra months of playtime, or going back 5 months ago. Would you have been able to clear Tier 4 back then? I guess not, your Kami are regularly dying even now after all. That is the limit of a rainbow grid and a result of doing things wrong in general.
You built your whole reasoning on the fact that you know a few people that didn't do things your way and ended up getting worse results, too bad you finally met someone who didn't do things your way but actually had as much time and motivation as you do.

Oh, in case you want to retort by saying that I whaled, be aware that I have 3 less SSR Kami than you do.

Ah, by the way, I use D'artagnan with Snatch 2 as an EX skill on the Wind boss, which means my accessory farming potential is actually higher than yours. If I was in your shoes and was convinced I was the best player ever and learnt that someone who started playing 5 months after I did had better farming potential, I would feel extremely humiliated.




So now, if you could please shut the fuck up and let the people that actually have something to say discuss, everyone would be happier. It's pretty tiring to read you saying "Please notice that I exist and acknowledge that I'm better than you" twice a day.

Ah, and you don't need to answer to this, I already know what you will answer, everyone knows, you're just that predictable, so not saying anything will save your and our time. You're most likely going to answer anyways, but whatever.

And sorry to the people who know me to show such an unsightly side of myself, but this idiot was really getting on my nerves.

Actually, if you bothered to read my earlier posts, I already mentioned that'd I've tried and compared both build types as a starter on seperate accounts. But, like an average person, you like to jump in with your fists swinging wildy around, without actually knowing much of anything.

And no. Players who want to be the best don't copy others, they find different builds that everyone else sees as bad, but then eventually make those same players copy it or wish they copied it later on down the road. The fact that you would suggest otherwise means you have no idea what you are talking about.

It's funny how you talk about Sana as if he's the only player in existence that 'looks at the game in a scientific way'. Figuring out the calculations isn't difficult whatsoever. Dmm players provided us with all of that information already. All Sana does is collect and repost it.

There's no point in relying on others when you know for a fact that they are wrong. That's just silly.

And you're wrong again. I never made fun of any players for how little or how much they play the game. Or even how much himes they have or don't have. For someone who claims to be very knowledgable, you seem very misinformed. Despite the fact that all claims you've made against me can be easily disproven by my earlier posts. The only people I made fun of are the ones that fire blank and poorly thought out counter-arguments. Like yours just now.

And here we go again with the, "But a mono grid is better for endgame," argument. It's as if you completely skipped over large portions of my previous messages. This is not a discussion about which build is better endgame. It's a discussion about which path builds you into several mono grids more effectively. I have to repeat this over and over. So why wouldn't I insult someone for being so daft?

And no it isn't shocking whatsoever. I've cleared stage 4 12 times so far without relying on elixirs. While playing recklessly and making a few silly mistakes. I too was using D'art against wind, so I don't seen why you're so proud about that. And each stage 4 run averaged about 12 mins for all my elements so far. I even have videos to prove it. Except for water, I didn't get a chance to record that, but I'll be uploading that run next week. You can view my videos if you don't believe me.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCILGFOOmP4TVCSTzz27EziA/videos?view_as=subscriber

I'm also willing to bet that all of my elements are similar in strength to your fire team. Which you main. So no, nothing you say makes me feel even close to humiliated.

And if you want me to stop talking, then what is the point in making a response to me? Especially if you know I'm predictable and that I would in fact reply to you. Your logic makes so sense to me. It's like trying to put out a fire with grease while wondering why the fire keeps burning.

[Slashley]

--The only people I made fun of are the ones that fire blank and poorly thought out counter-arguments. Like yours just now.--Which is amusing, since you haven't made a single argument in a long time. If ever.

I mean "I'm the best because I'm the best" is not really an argument.

[BakaHentai]

I mean "I'm the best because I'm the best" is not really an argument.

You're right. It's a fact.

[Unregistered]

I get the feeling everyone responding to Baka is a masochist.

[nonsensei]

Actually he's just a stupid pervert... but enough of the nonsense.
This thread quickly turned into a battlefield, instead of a discussion.

[BakaHentai]

Actually he's just a stupid pervert... but enough of the nonsense.

Why does everyone keep calling me a stupid pervert? D:<

[Kitty]

Why does everyone keep calling me a stupid pervert? D:<

cause you're a stupid pervert!

[BakaHentai]

Well you're just mean :(

[sanahtlig]

For debuffs, just by being the advantage element, you have the equivalent of -25% att down and -30% def down. So even with just sniper shot on top of that you are already at about the same point as someone at the cap in their mono team. So you do get a lot more flexibility with the rainbow team.
Compared to a neutral-element team with -70% ATK (admittedly somewhat of a temporary exploit), an element-advantaged team with -20% ATK would be taking double damage.

BakaHentai has excellent kamihime in just about every team. Given multiple excellent SSRs, basic knowledge of mechanics, and unlimited free time, I suspect players could achieve success with just about any half-decent build strategy. I've also seen a savvy player (who didn't spend on SSR kamihime tickets) use the same build strategy as BakaHentai and fail to clear content, which is one reason I'm skeptical. You can't go wrong by building around a strong mono-element team, but you can certainly dig a hole for yourself by relying on elemental advantage to clear content, investing in all elements equally, and then belatedly realizing that some of your teams aren't up to snuff. And from the perspective of someone who writes guides for the widest audience possible, it's easier to provide optimal build templates to aim for than to individually explain to each new player how to work with the hodgepodge of kamihime they've been given in each element for each encounter.

[Shieun]

I presume everyone here is aware that the ultimate end-game goal is to have 6 mono-element team and grids.

How you get there, doesn't quite matter isn't it? The journey for monogrids and rainbowgrids user take to get there is more or less the same. Monogrids player will slowly build their team one grid to another grid. Rainbowgrids will slowly level up their SSRs weapon one element to another element.

If we're talking how fast you get there, it really depends on your luck with gem gacha/weapon cave. The more time you can sink in the game, the faster you'll get there.

If we're talking how easy each content is, I'll say monogrids will struggle when they do not get elemental advantage/get elemental disadvantage, which rainbowgrids will probably not experience. But if both monogrids and rainbowgrids have equal playing ground (same hime quality, same weapon quality, same eidolon quality), monogrids should have a better damage output when compared to the rainbowgrids, because of the stacking of the same element SL that rainbowgrids will not get.

Also FYI, I wouldn't call someone that uses 10 mono-element weapon + 1 off-element weapon a rainbow grid user. I'd classify a rainbow grid user as someone who has less than 50% of his weapon grid in 1 element, anything more is just mono element user building towards a monogrid.

So, to say which grid is better, that's a hard conclusion to draw. Both grids have their pros and cons. Anyone will have to think carefully of their own circumstances (playing time, etc) before adopting an approach.

I'd say rainbowgrids rely less on RNG and event timing because your team will be decided by who you got from gacha and event timing wouldnt matter for you because you just farm them anyway.

Monogrid will need the right element himes and right event timing to start building their team. It's not going to be a good time to be a fire user (for example) if the next 4 months events are going to be a non-fire event and so on. If you cant access event SSRs, it can put quite a bit of delay on your progression towards getting a monogrid.

With that said, aside from of some ragnarok difficulty content and perhaps the tier 4 accessory (do correct me if i'm wrong), monogrids can clear those content with disaster drops anyway, so its not like you're going to be seriously hindered from getting to the end goal.

[ohjel]

Compared to a neutral-element team with -70% ATK (admittedly somewhat of a temporary exploit), an element-advantaged team with -20% ATK would be taking double damage.


Can you get to -70% with all elements? Or do you mean that Sol is required for all "mono" builds, which supports my argument that rainbow gives more flexibility? Besides, the cap is dropping to 50% in 1 month, and anyone starting won't be able to get a -10% att eidolon for a long time, so they will only even be able to reach 60% att down. If the guide is only about what we have right now, then I say that miracle tickets don't exist, so mono teams are really only going to have 1-2 SSR that you start with unless you whale /get lucky with gatcha.

Edit:
And actually, now that I think of it, Sol works for the rainbow teams perfectly also. Sol + sniper shot+Joan+10% eid can get you -70% att on any team, for incoming damage reduced to 22.5% of base with ele advantage. The rest of your team barely matters with that much reduction. And with the free extra 45% elemental attack from ele advantage missing the A def down buff is less critical if you can't fit one in.

[Unregistered]

Don't forget Caspiel if you can work really fast!

[Shieun]

Can you get to -70% with all elements? Or do you mean that Sol is required for all "mono" builds, which supports my argument that rainbow gives more flexibility? Besides, the cap is dropping to 50% in 1 month, and anyone starting won't be able to get a -10% att eidolon for a long time, so they will only even be able to reach 60% att down. If the guide is only about what we have right now, then I say that miracle tickets don't exist, so mono teams are really only going to have 1-2 SSR that you start with unless you whale /get lucky with gatcha.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic of the discussion is weapon grid and not hime team. Also having a sol supporting a team of 2 or more mono element hime (excl. souls) hardly qualifies for a rainbow team.

[ohjel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic of the discussion is weapon grid and not hime team. Also having a sol supporting a team of 2 or more mono element hime (excl. souls) hardly qualifies to be a rainbow team.

Have you not been following the thread? It's turned into a debate about whether it is better to raise 1 team of each element, or just focus on one element only.

And actually, now that I think of it, Sol works for the rainbow teams perfectly also. Sol + sniper shot+Joan+10% eid can get you -70% att on any team, for incoming damage reduced to 22.5% of base. And with the free extra 45% elemental attack from ele advantage missing the A def down buff is less critical if you can't fit one in.

[Shieun]

Have you not been following the thread? It's turned into a debate about whether it is better to raise 1 team of each element, or just focus on one element only.

And actually, now that I think of it, Sol works for the rainbow teams perfectly also. Sol + sniper shot+Joan+10% eid can get you -70% att on any team, for incoming damage reduced to 22.5% of base. And with the free extra 45% elemental attack from ele advantage missing the A def down buff is less critical if you can't fit one in.

You kidding me?

Thats one heck of derailment in just 5 days

If we're talking about one team vs multiple team, then I'd say at least have two. One main, and the other in case you get an event your main team is weak against.

Also Sol works great in any element team tbh, that 40% atk down is no joke, it turns a sure death ragnarok sword of Christmas Rage into a plastic toy lightsaber.

But I never thought running a rainbow element hime is viable due to how the stat bonus mechanic is applied. You will probably need to run HP eidolon so that you get some comfort in survivability when up against RNG and union event..

FYI, I'm the kind of the guy that find running the following setup is giving me a lot of peace of mind, although I will admit upfront that it is definitely not an optimal build atk/hp wise. I probably have way too much HP for comfort there

https://imgur.com/a/9718c

[LeCrestfallen]

to me it looks like you can autobattle almost anything though? sounds comfortable.

[Shieun]

I'm not at that stage yet. Still have a lot of works to do in the weapon grids department and event specific position order, but if it's just common content (ultimate and below), then bar some shitty RNG, I should be able to reliably AAB most of it.

I suppose enough of me, back to the discussion?

[sanahtlig]

If the guide is only about what we have right now, then I say that miracle tickets don't exist, so mono teams are really only going to have 1-2 SSR that you start with unless you whale /get lucky with gatcha.
My philosophy is to cover future content when it is relevant to current planning. Miracle tickets are an important component of an endgame one-team build. Without them, you'd need to make sure you're happy with your starting team, which for ambitious players would require far more rerolling than I currently advise. It's pretty easy to roll Sol. It's much harder to roll Sol + another SSR you want.


Thats one heck of derailment in just 5 days
The problem is that the OP wasn't very clear in stating the purpose of the discussion. That took a few pages to coalesce as the denizens of the Discord channel streamed forth to outline their argument against the current dogma.


Can you get to -70% with all elements? Or do you mean that Sol is required for all "mono" builds
I mean that debuffs are important, especially right now, and it's worth designing teams around them. In my guide I don't actually call them "mono-element teams". I instead use "primary, dominant-element team" to avoid confusion.

[ohjel]

I agree with all your points sanahtlig, but you are missing my overall argument. I was saying that since debuffs are everything, the rainbow player starting with +45% ele attack and -25% damage taken is a huge leg up. You countered that the mono player can build his super team to get to -70% attack. I was then trying to say that 1: 70% is only for 1 more month, so isn't worth including in theorycrafting, and 2: even if it is, if the rainbow player also has Sol then he too can get to absurd att debuffing.

To be honest, I am a mono wind player, and even if this thread proves that rainbow is superior, I will probably be too lazy to be willing to grind out 6 teams. But I just think that there needs to be more numbers based arguments about the pro's of 6 teams, as opposed to gut based arguments. I feel like mono and rainbow are both closer in performance then either side wants to admit.