some questions about weapon skill enhancement

[Unregistered]

As far as I have understood it, weapons r and higher have a skill. The maximum level of said skill is 20 and they work as multipliers for the respective decks?

now there are 3 rarities of weapons with skill. and several different skills (like assault and defender)

Question one:

Simple upgrade formula for 100% chance skill increase is what?

Current skill lvl = amount of weapons of one tier lower needed to increase skill lvl by 1.
Example: SR Weapon skill lvl 4 , so 4 R weapons needed to increaese skill lvl to 5 with a 100% chance?


Question 2: Should one focus on maxing out one skill first or spread the skill levels equally around the deck?

Quesiton 3: should one keep duplicate SR weapons (assuming you have already broken the limit to the maximum) as fodder for SSR weapons or simply use it on other SR weapons?

[sanahtlig]

I cover many of these questions in my Leveling Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19K_dU3rCief_ajPGS9YBuVdxXBYFyCGGXAxYYyK0jzg/edit#heading=h.5ihfxw1r0rx).

[Unregistered]

after going over your guide, those were question i needed clarification on because the content of your guide did not cover them or you were merely repeating some information without backing up your statement with evidence/data.

Alas, let us start with somehting different
It is not "limit breaked" but limit broken, because to break is an irregular verb and the passive form of it is broken


You do not explain any formula for skill leveling, merely say that some items are fodder/should not be used/will become obsolete.
--> You do not answer my first question.

You also do not answer my second question as you offer no reasons/thought as to WHY one should euqally upgrade the assault skill first (or why one should focus on it in the first place)

And where do you offer me any information relating to my 3rd question?

[LeCrestfallen]

the second question can be answered with common sense.....

All skill level increases give the same boost. So why would you throw in 15r items to increase a skill level on a weapon, if you have another available that you can level up with 10r items, for exactly the same increase. Its another story if you include normal levels if the weapons are not on max level.

[Unregistered]

So the formula is pretty simple. The 'points' needed to guarantee raising a skill by one level is equal to the current skill level multiplied by a constant (which varies depending on the rarity)
R is 5, so it's skill level * 5. SR is 10. SSR is 20.

How many 'points' a particular piece of fodder is worth works similarly, but the constants are different this time around.
R is 10, so it's skill level * 10. R grail is 20. SR is 35. SR grail is 50. SSR is 350. SSR grail is 400.

(as you can guess, the probability of success is points_from_fodder divided by points_for_100%_raise, with a quotient above 1 being meaningless)

The shortcut way of thinking about this is that an SR needs the equivalent of 1 R (at skill lvl 1 each) per level, while an SSR would need 2 per level. But of course, in practice, you won't be using literally 1 R per level for an SR or 2 R's per level for an SSR, at some given skill level.

As for the 2nd question, whether to focus on leveling one skill or spread the leveling out depends on how you want the power/investment curve to look. The absolute gain from 1 skill level is constant, regardless of what level it is. So going from skill level 1 to 2 gives as much to you as going from 19 to 20. But the investment/fodder needed are drastically different as the formula above indicates. If you opt to raise a bunch of a weapons by a few levels, the gains are frontloaded. It's a quick boost, but the gain/investment rate sinks so you picked up all the easy gains. The graph would look like logarithmic growth perhaps.
If you focus on one weapon at a time, then the gain/investment curve constantly swings up and down. I'd say that given X investment, you've gained less this way compared to evenly leveling. Emotionally, you'd probably be going through a constant cycle of quick gains and slow gains, as opposed to 'after getting all of the easy pickings, the future just gets slower, and slower, and slower'.

Third question, excessive SR weapons are usually reserved as fodder for SSRs. The assumption is that in the long run, you're ideally shooting for weapon grids mostly/entirely composed of SSR. Ergo, SR weapons are presumed to be placeholders that you only invest in as necessary, while SSRs are what you want to eventually max out.

[sanahtlig]

Third question, excessive SR weapons are usually reserved as fodder for SSRs.
If your goal is to power up a single team as quickly as possible to clear difficult content, investing in skill-leveling SR weapons is a must. After a year of play I only have 4 LB3 Water SSR weapons. After a month of play you'll have far less than that. The typical strategy is to max one team first. After that, you can do what you want.

[Unregistered]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to level the skills of some intermediate weapons before using them to level up the skills of the weapons you are actually using.
Based off the values on the wiki:
R weapons are used at skill level 1 to enhance the other weapons to the following levels
R-grails should be leveled to skill level 4: Cost 1+1+1 R weapons to get 2+2+2 extra skill points.
SR-Grails should be leveled to skill level 5: Cost 1+2+3+4 R weapons to get 5+5+5+5 skill points.
SR non grails to level 4: Cost: 1+2+3 R weapons to get 3.5+3.5+3.5 skill points.
SSR non grails to level 2 if you want to use them to enhance a weapon with skill lvl 19. Cost 2 R weapons to get 3 extra skill points.
For the grails and SR weapons they offer more enhancement at those levels than you spend to get them there. The SSR weapons are worth 35x per level but the max you need is 38 points to enhance a lvl 19 SSR, if there are weapons that go past skill level 20 then further enhanceing the SSR weapon should be worth it.

Of course you should save these enhanced intermediates for use enhance weapons skills that need that many points.

I've only tested this with R-grails so far and it worked as I expected.

[Slashley]

Sounds about right. Though, I'd say that R Grails go to skill level 3, which is 1+1. One more isn't 100%, but I believe if you trust in theory of gambling, you'll gain from it. I don't think it's worth the time.

Also, I've stopped caring about leveling my SR weapons past slvl 2. Paying 2 points for 3 points, and then 3 points for 4 points just isn't worth your time now that fodder is incredibly easy to come by.

The most important thing is that you spam half-elixirs on Gem Quests, and spend 100k every day on Gem Gacha. That's something that wasn't a thing when this topic came around.

[Unregistered]

Interesting that you're opting for including the decimal point. Jp wiki multiplies by 10 to not have to use that.

R grail needs 4 R's to hit skill lvl 4. 1 + 1 + 2 (lv 3 needs 15 points)

There's more nuance than pure points per R efficiency. An individual also needs to take into account how many R grails, SRs, and SR-grails he currently has, his storage space, and what will be expected to come in soon.
I tend to be more pressured when it comes to space management (I have a ton of spare SRs that I never got around to burning, as I drag my feet on the gem gacha drawing process). I prefer to get my R grails up to lv 3 (thus, I treat them as converting 2 R's into 60 points). The extra 2 R's to push them to lv 4/80 points just isn't worth it to me when another 40+ R grails come in next union event. SRs I bounce between either lv 3 or lv 4, depending on how many points I need exactly and if I'm in the mood for being efficient with the SRs. SR grails might as well be taken to lv 5 though. The 160 points from a lv 4 can be replicated through lv 3 R grail and lv 3 SR. Or a lv 4 SR + 2 Rs if you're running out of the R grails.

You'll see skill levels higher than 20 in the future. Final Limit Break raises the cap to 30.

[MagicSpice]

far as i'm concerned, it takes a bit of math but i find it easier to raise grails and SR to the point of where it's not a waste to just use the R weapons instead...


for instance, SLv6 on an SR is worth 21 R weapons, and takes 15 to get that far... I can't call that a waste...

but for an SLv8, it's worth 28 R weapons, but takes 28 R weapons to get that far. as fodder, this is where it starts becoming a waste of time and you should just fuse R weapons together to save time and trouble.

but when you factor in fusing R into R, then it's more complicated. 4 R will make another R weapon to skill lv 4... at that point you wasted an R weapon cause 5 total (the 4 used and the 1 as a base) were used altogether. only R grails benefit at this point.

it's more about the research you do, then going from there. SLv20 isn't that hard to optimize skill leveling for, but the values when final breaks hit will change things a bit cause you have to factor in up to 58 R weapons at SLv29 going to SLv30. You'll have to optimize like a madman to avoid wasting materials then.

there's definitely a tradeoff point where you should stop, but more or less you need to factor in other situations to see if you truly get what's worth using or if you should budget a different way...


also, i think I heard SSR grail is worth 50 R weapons, but I'm not sure on that... considering Drag eyes are the only way to get that basically... doubt anyone uses it anytime soon...

[Unregistered]

Those 210 points from 1 s.lvl 6 SR? You spent 15 R's when you could've spent 13 R's (1 s.lvl 4 SR + 7 R's). Alternatively, if you have way too many SRs lying around, you could use 2 s.lvl 3 SRs (requiring 6 R's).
The reason you stop at s.lvl 4 for SR is that to hit 5 (and thus gain 35 more points out of it), you need to put in 40 points. So it's a net loss of 5 points/half a R. Lv 5 to 6 is eating 50 points to get out 35, for a net loss of 15 points/one and a half R's.

[blubbergott]

for instance, SLv6 on an SR is worth 21 R weapons, and takes 15 to get that far... I can't call that a waste...

How is this not a waste when you could've just stopped at 4 and gotten 14 Rs worth for 6 (+8) instead of 21 Rs worth for 15 (+6)?

It's really not that difficult, just stop enhancing once it costs more than (or the same) you get out of it. Going further is a complete waste. I don't quite see how optimizing will be any different for FLB. If X is the amount of Rs you need for a level, then just use X/14 SRs and X mod 14 Rs and if you wanna save on SRs, then just use X/14 - 1 SRs for every X mod 14 < 4 (6 if X = 20) and add 14 Rs instead. Really just gotta know basic addition and multiplication and how many Rs each weapon/grail is worth.

[Unregistered]

SR grails might as well be taken to lv 5 though. The 160 points from a lv 4 can be replicated through lv 3 R grail and lv 3 SR. Or a lv 4 SR + 2 Rs if you're running out of the R grails.

So when I wrote this, I thought that SR grails were 40 points each for some reason. To correct myself, it's 200 points from a lv 4 SR grail. It's not really worthwhile to try to replicate it (specifically for SSR lv 10->11) through other means. Although for SSR lv 11->12, whether 1 lv 4 SR grail + 2 R's or 2 lv 3 SRs + 1 R is the way to go probably comes down to supply.

[Unregistered]

but for an SLv8, it's worth 28 R weapons, but takes 28 R weapons to get that far. as fodder, this is where it starts becoming a waste of time and you should just fuse R weapons together to save time and trouble.

but when you factor in fusing R into R, then it's more complicated. 4 R will make another R weapon to skill lv 4... at that point you wasted an R weapon cause 5 total (the 4 used and the 1 as a base) were used altogether. only R grails benefit at this point.

also, i think I heard SSR grail is worth 50 R weapons, but I'm not sure on that... considering Drag eyes are the only way to get that basically... doubt anyone uses it anytime soon...


I think you might be confusing marginal benefit with total cost vs benefit. If I compare Lvl 5 SR weapon to a lvl 1 SR weapon +1+2+3+4 R weapons, its a net positive in terms of skill enhancement, but that's the wrong comparison. Instead I should compare a Lvl 5 SR weapon with a level 4 SR weapon +4 R weapons. In that comparison the 2nd example wins since the the 4->5 SR enhancement only adds 3.5 skill points and costs 1 x 4 R =4 skill points.

I don't see the point in ever enhancing the wep skill of R weapons. It will always cost at least one R weapon (1 skill point) and never yield more than 1 skill point on the enhanced material.

Agreed, The SSR grail seems like a total waste of Draconic eyes. Eyes are super rare and there are easier ways to get skill enhancement materials.

To disclaim my own experience, I'm a total casual FTP at this game.

[Unregistered]

SSR grail's 400 points (or, 40 points by your scale), compared to the standard SSR's 350 points. So correct, it is never a good idea to expend eyes for the SSR grail. Especially when the most points you'll ever need for a skill level up is 580 (SSR lv 29->30). As well as the fact that replicating those points through f2p ways isn't exactly hard.

[MagicSpice]

from what i've looked up, it's this for the following... assuming you do the 10 multiplier

R- 10 pts
R grail- 20 pts
SR - 35 pts (so a lv4 SR is 140)
SR grail- 50 pts
SSR- 350 pts
SSR grail- 500 pts...


Lv 6 SR is worth 210 pts... but you spend 1 R to get from 1 to 2, 2 R, then 3, and so on... so it's 1+2+3+4+5= 15...

so i spent 150 pts to get 210... maybe by combining R into each other, this could have been cheaper, but that's still 60 less points I spent to match that SR... if you include the original SR value... that's still 185....

185 is less than 210 so it's not a waste, even if it's not optimal.

marginal costs is one thing, but it's not like you're pulling an SR from the gem gacha either...

[Unregistered]

No no no, you stop at lv 4 for the SR. Then just add 7 lv 1 R's. That's 210 points using 1 SR + 13 R's, instead of 1 SR + 15 R's.

And there's no reason to ever level a plain R.

Where are you getting 500 for SSR grail from? I'm looking at Jp wiki right now and it says 400.

[Ikki]

No no no, you stop at lv 4 for the SR. Then just add 7 lv 1 R's. That's 210 points using 1 SR + 13 R's, instead of 1 SR + 15 R's.


^ Pretty much this, how can you say that a skill lvl 6 SR is not a waste when you use 2 extra Rs compared to a skill lvl 4 SR + 7 Rs, you dont go min maxing stuff and then say "it's not a waste, even if it's not optimal", ofc its a waste you are wasting 2 Rs, theres no inbetween in maths, dont advice non optimal ways of skill lvling to others, if you dont mind about wasting mats, then you do you, but dont advice it to others.

[MagicSpice]

^ Pretty much this, how can you say that a skill lvl 6 SR is not a waste when you use 2 extra Rs compared to a skill lvl 4 SR + 7 Rs, you dont go min maxing stuff and then say "it's not a waste, even if it's not optimal", ofc its a waste you are wasting 2 Rs, theres no inbetween in maths, dont advice non optimal ways of skill lvling to others, if you dont mind about wasting mats, then you do you, but dont advice it to others.

well, since you guys have the answers, you handle it then... i'm just walking away from this

[Kureru]

well, since you guys have the answers, you handle it then... i'm just walking away from this

They're trying to help you >_<

SL4 SR is worth 140 points, SL5 SR is worth 175 points. R is 10 points.
It takes 4 rares to get an SL4 to SL5. You gain 35 points from that, but if you just used the 4 rares directly in enhancing you would gain 40 points. That's why levelling SR fodder past 4 is a waste - you would get more points from just using those rares on the weapon you're trying to raise.

[MagicSpice]

They're trying to help you >_<

help is fine... miscalculations are done at points and i did make a mistake...

the TONE of some responses is what i didn't like, and i'm not about to get into a pointless conflict over it...