On persistent social toxicity in this forum

[sanahtlig]

This discussion branches off from here (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4367-wind-catastrophe-2.html#post109525).

I've noticed over the past few weeks that name-calling, disrespect, and social aggression have creeped into discussions on this forum, both from registered and unregistered users. This board is mostly unmoderated, and without an arbitrator these disputes have continued to grow in frequency and severity.

My goals for this discussion are the following:
Characterize the problem
Identify the scope of the problem: How severe/prevalent is the problem?
Determine the urgency of the problem: How quickly and aggressively do we need to act?
Identify coping mechanisms to mitigate the problem: i.e., providing guidelines and counseling individuals who have been involved in these disputes
Identify long-term solutions: This may require technical and organizational changes like disabling posting by unregistered users. Technical limitations with the forum software or settings could make a long-term solution difficult or impossible without aggressive measures such as shifting the community elsewhere.

That should get the discussion started. I'll update this post as necessary based on feedback.

[Delete]

While I have been posting only recently, I have been reading the forum for a couple months. And I agree with Sanahtlig, recently there has been some insults and hostility that hurts the discussion. The shame is that the themes with that problem (Wind Catastrophe) would be an interesting discussion with a more civil tone. In fact, my lasts runs on Catastrophe, with Arthur, where much better that the first ones with Mordred and trying to land debuff like usual, so I can partially agree with some people (with my limited knowledge; I'm far from a veteran). But there are times where the tone can indeed be against your position. Bad language do not support a good conversation.

We should all try to calm a bit, I suppose. ^^

[Cobblemaniac]

We should all try to calm a bit, I suppose. ^^

This. This is probably a very good method of damage control for those that are currently looking at the thread, and ripping their heads out for whatever reason. Take some time off the computer and chill for a bit.

From whatever I've posted from the previous thread, I'll transfer here, so context will apply from what I've posted in the wind ragna thread, although I would like to post a quick message to VeryVoodoo (quoted so those reading my input can skip this easily):


I apologise if I came across as grouping your methods of arguments in the "hoho you're a shitbag" category bag, for the sake of fairness I've went past previous threads to make sure I wasn't making the wrong judgement for you, and indeed, you've tried your best to keep as civil as possible, I re-emphasise that I am terribly sorry. What I have observed is that you are noticeably losing your patience as the argument goes along (most notably in the general discussions thread), and that argument has probably tainted your impression of a few of our members here. Hell, my message probably already tainted your impression of me. I only ask of you this: please don't take it to heart, be it that general discussion issue, my message, or anything else, and let's try not to point fingers about anything, even if I am indeed hypocritically doing so right now.


With that out of the way, this is what I have observed so far:

The forum today phases between very helpful and the insult firestorm that we see from the linked thread. There is a pattern to this phase; when there is consensus on something, or a person asks for information about event technicalities and stuff you can find in the wiki (JP or not), helpful mode applies, we're good on that. The problem comes when we disagree, some corrections that come in do so rather aggressively, which of course, is like a spark to a gas tank of toxic arguments, either there is damage control to prevent that spark from inducing an explosion, or kaboom goes the thread.

The unregistered user issue is something of concern, there have been particularly helpful unregistered users, but I fear that the mask of anonymity is an issue when we determine the root of the problem; what root is there in the first place? On the flipside, I do believe that necessitating registered posting and commenting kinda gives helpful users the recognition they deserve, although not necessarily the recognition they want. Current observation tells me that most unregistered users also fall within the same patterns of phasing as I've described in the paragraph above, and therefore solving that issue should bring a temporary closure to this issue as well.

[Marigold]

Now it's pretty easy to account for the various incidents that had been going on for a few months to the latest issue but the fact still remains, maybe yes language was a bit rough and pointing at someone before calling them out is rude but we aren't five year olds in kindergarten to make such a drama over it.

Now about this last issue, even if the way in which I said such things is rude or unpolite which I understand shouldn't be the way; I still stand by what I said.

You shouldn't advice members on content you don't understand or can't clear, you shouldn't "debate over misinformation" or "speculate about something" when the OP asked for a concise strategy, at least not in the same thread, even less when you have somewhat of a good reputation in the forums due to your activity.
And even less defy members that can clear that content and have a cohesive understanding over it and their advice.

Does this meet you standards without hurting your feelings now?, it's pretty easy to digest I think.

On my "misinformation is a bitch" statement, I reffered to this since a big number of players desert the game over being stuck at some point, a bad advice, a speculative one or a missinformed discussion about it can led to it, the fact that your friend was "correcting" a player that gave a good advice with a bad one was the main motivation behind it.

For now I'm not going to reffer to the theme since at this point it's pretty much attention milking, regardless of it; have a good one and maybe we both can learn from each other later, we were both wrong in our ways after all, you by sneaking your nose in something you don't understand and me by being unpolite and rude, cheers.

[Unregistered]

Tbh both ways are wrong, sana and slash thinking they know stuff when they dont (advicing on content they dont clear/struggle) and players speaking truth but in a harsh manner, so first thing first:

1- Stop advicing on content you cant clear/struggle, that just spreads the missinfo further and increases the bad reputation hbc already has in terms of kh ignorance.
2- Choose the words wisely when speaking trush, as some1 said, without insults.

If point 1 is satisfied, people wont have any need of calling some1 out and will give advice as such without insults, cause you know, they get pissed when people think they know stuff when they actually dont.

[Unregistered]

This is why I have yet to register for these forums. There's a strong sense of negative bias towards certain users maybe because something they've said once that triggered the other or something, I wouldn't know. Talking about this won't fix anything as seen above. The only thing that would remotely solve this is getting forum moderators, which this site has none, only kotono, the admin, has any power of these forums.

[Unregistered]

This is why I have yet to register for these forums. There's a strong sense of negative bias towards certain users maybe because something they've said once that triggered the other or something, I wouldn't know. Talking about this won't fix anything as seen above. The only thing that would remotely solve this is getting forum moderators, which this site has none, only kotono, the admin, has any power of these forums.

You're being too childish about it and men don't resolve any issues by complaining with their mommas
For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

[Delete]

You're being too childish about it and men don't resolve any issues by complaining with their mommas
For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

Request for a discussion with some education and manners are not "complaining to mommas". On the contrary, the childish option is use some rough manners. Specially when you may have some spark of merit to your opinions.

[Unregistered]

You're being too childish about it and men don't resolve any issues by complaining with their mommas
For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

This is a fine example of the childish mentality society has forced on people to avoid being called a 'tattletale', a 'snitch', etc. Telling someone with the power to stop something from going out of control is far better than simply ignoring it. Ignoring it solves nothing and is part of the problem. That's why this topic was made in the first place.

[VeryVoodoo]

I apologise if I came across as grouping your methods of arguments in the "hoho you're a shitbag" category bag, for the sake of fairness I've went past previous threads to make sure I wasn't making the wrong judgement for you, and indeed, you've tried your best to keep as civil as possible, I re-emphasise that I am terribly sorry. What I have observed is that you are noticeably losing your patience as the argument goes along (most notably in the general discussions thread), and that argument has probably tainted your impression of a few of our members here. Hell, my message probably already tainted your impression of me. I only ask of you this: please don't take it to heart, be it that general discussion issue, my message, or anything else, and let's try not to point fingers about anything, even if I am indeed hypocritically doing so right now.

Fair enough, lol. Also there's no need for you to apologize as I took no offense from it, was mainly just amused.

As for that discussion from the General Discussion thread, honestly for me, it was just a conversation between two people with differing viewpoints or dissenting opinions. It seems like others in the community may have used that discussion as the train they could use to jump on to personally attack parties that they might've had beefs with in the past. Though, I have no idea if that's the case as I don't frequent these forums enough to know. In fact, the only reason I engaged in the conversation in the first place was since the other party directly quoted and addressed me, which I just happened to see, and asked what seemed like pointed questions. So I responded, but it soon became clear to me that they weren't actually interested in having a detailed discussion about it at all since they quickly disengaged while saying things like "no one HAS to engage in a discussion" with others if they don't want to, which technically is true. Only it left me a bit confused as to why they engaged me in the first place at all if that was the case. Either way, I don't particularly care one way or the other, nor am I offended by it in the least.

And I have to parrot your statement in regards to unregistered users. There certainly are ones that are particularly helpful, but there are also those that seem to use this mask of anonymity to carry out what seems like personal grudges or attacks on others. Requiring posters to be registered would at least fix that latter part.

[Slashley]

-- I still stand by what I said. --The problem is though... you haven't really said anything. Not a single argument.

At the moment, you're trying to be a mythical savior with a mythical solution to a mythical monster that you've slain. And you demand to be applauded as the hero who has saved us all!!!

I'll be far more inclined to believe you when you start explaining where, why and what. Until then... well. I'll just keep spreading my misinformation because I won't have access to anything more correct.
1- Stop advicing on content you cant clear/struggle, that just spreads the missinfo further and increases the bad reputation hbc already has in terms of kh ignorance.So hbc already has a bad reputation, and yet you're still here...
And instead of pointing out the missinfo, you'd rather just claim that it's wrong without pointing out what is wrong...?

I find this quite odd.
This is why I have yet to register for these forums. There's a strong sense of negative bias towards certain users maybe because something they've said once that triggered the other or something, I wouldn't know.I know right.
That BakaHentai episode tends to come up constantly.
:think:

[Unregistered]

So hbc already has a bad reputation, and yet you're still here...
And instead of pointing out the missinfo, you'd rather just claim that it's wrong without pointing out what is wrong...?


Relying on debuffs on wrag when wrag is more about team composition (having dakki) and grid, saying that baalU isnt good even tho top dmm players use her in every thunder team, basing all your arguments on the def/atk debuff cap, when plenty of top tier teams dont even care if they have atk down or not (some even lack the 50% def down until herc bursts), just to name a few, all of this above is missinfo coming from you.

[Slashley]

I have said all of that, yes.

By the way, define "top tier teams"? Because if we're talking about something like Japanese whales who have 70k base atk, yeah, they probably don't need to care. But is that something that any regular user needs to care about?

[Marigold]

You can pretend you don't know how to read and simply ignore my suggestions to said thread, also the latter responses should fill the pot for you.

As for your last statement it just shows how salty you are at the moment, I wasn't the one making the new thread or asking for acceptance in the forums, I'm not playing God with my preset unsatisfactory answers just to be this savior you two tend to depict, now two other users have pointed out about your missinformed answers and yet you're saying you'll continue with it, if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything and that goes to us both, or haven't you learned anything at all this whole time?

Or maybe your precious ego or need for attention is enough of an excuse to hinder unaware players.

Talk when you have the knowledge to do so, talk when you are able to clear that content* on your own and understand the mechanics rather than going with something counter productive, talk when you ARE sure of what you're speaking of.

Also don't correct people that give good advice over a topic you don't understand.

[Marigold]

I have said all of that, yes.

By the way, define "top tier teams"? Because if we're talking about something like Japanese whales who have 70k base atk, yeah, they probably don't need to care. But is that something that any regular user needs to care about?

This doesn't come at all in relation with the thread nor gives an actual response from you.
Also quick reminder; "whales" are the ones who keep the game alive, you don't need to be a whale to have a bunch of SSR'S and or satisfactory teams, it doesn't come to skill either, just luck.

[Slashley]

You can pretend you don't know how to read and simply ignore my suggestions to said thread, also the latter responses should fill the pot for you.--Now I am just confused. Please quote me the suggestions, either here or the Rag Wind Disaster thread.

Because so far, all I see is this:

Relying on debuffs on wrag when wrag is more about team composition (having dakki) and grid, saying that baalU isnt good even tho top dmm players use her in every thunder team, basing all your arguments on the def/atk debuff cap, when plenty of top tier teams dont even care if they have atk down or not (some even lack the 50% def down until herc bursts), just to name a few, all of this above is missinfo coming from you.And here, we at least have "What." Now, I just need "Why."

[Marigold]

Now I am just confused. Please quote me the suggestions, either here or the Rag Wind Disaster thread.

Affar from what you quoted:

https://i.imgur.com/X2r6iIb.jpg

[Laventale]

Man, having a nice discussion with everything putting opinions on the table is hard nowadays, huh...

Try to be nice to everyone, no matter how stupid or non-sensical their argument might be...

[sanahtlig]

I agree with others that we need to make users accountable for what they say by disabling unregistered posting. Any long-term fix needs to start with that. That should be enough of an impediment to discourage casual trolling. Obviously most unregistered users don't cause a problem, but we should prioritize fostering a sense of community over simple ease of access.

I guess I'll message this kotono and see what our options are. But he may very well not even check these forums, in which case we'll need to find some other liaison.

[BakaHentai]

This discussion branches off from here (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4367-wind-catastrophe-2.html#post109525).

I've noticed over the past few weeks that name-calling, disrespect, and social aggression have creeped into discussions on this forum, both from registered and unregistered users. This board is mostly unmoderated, and without an arbitrator these disputes have continued to grow in frequency and severity.

My goals for this discussion are the following:
Characterize the problem
Identify the scope of the problem: How severe/prevalent is the problem?
Determine the urgency of the problem: How quickly and aggressively do we need to act?
Identify coping mechanisms to mitigate the problem: i.e., providing guidelines and counseling individuals who have been involved in these disputes
Identify long-term solutions: This may require technical and organizational changes like disabling posting by unregistered users. Technical limitations with the forum software or settings could make a long-term solution difficult or impossible without aggressive measures such as shifting the community elsewhere.

That should get the discussion started. I'll update this post as necessary based on feedback.

The fastest and most effecient way to get rid of toxicity and trolling is to simply remove the babies from the equation. The internet is a toxic place all on it's own. It doesn't matter where you go, toxicity will always be there. That's just how people are. Crying, and being loud about toxicity does nothing but paint you as a target and gives the trolls something fun to do.

[Kotono]

Hey guys, sorry about not being able to really keep up with everything that goes on. I've always had to simply rely on being informed by others when a problem arises. This is not the only site I have to run, either. So of course attention gets divided quite a bit, including with my other activities as well.

That said, unregistered posting was something I decided to allow on a temporary basis - until it started becoming abused. It sounds to me like it may be time for it to be turned off, and now it is - for Kamihime forum.

Also, should anyone like to volunteer to moderate KH discussions, then please feel free to send me a message to request for it. It is always better for someone with more of an understanding of what is happening to moderate rather than myself who just enters when looking for someone causing trouble.

I hear HBC forum has a bad rep, and that's very unfortunate. This is something I'd like to correct.

Discussions are all well and good. Disagreements are fine, as they are unavoidable. Arguments can and will start as a result. However, as soon as it escalates to insults, the discussion should be over and offenders dealt with. Do NOT retaliate with more insults.

[Unregistered user]

So, technically, a few registered ones start a fight in this forum and the ones that get punished are the unregistered... That's quite interesting. And no, I'm not a second account to troll, was an unregistered a few minutes ago because I dont think you have to identify yourself to ask something, read the forum or even say an opinion without log in everytime.

[MagicSpice]

honestly, i just think that egos need to be let go.....

mistakes are made at times (i even did a video with the wrong info recently and had to clarify in the comments about the mistake). it comes down to owning up to mistakes and others not trying to act like one mistake is the end of the world...

this is honestly the same thing i see on Elsword's forums and chats all the time, but nowhere near the toxicity.... and i'm sure there's still worse than that....


plus when it comes to giving advice on this game, it's just that.... advice... biggest thing that's overlooked is that while some things clearly can be best in slot or most valued character, not everyone has those things....

i honestly feel like that when advice is given, multiple options need to be suggested too. for instance, so many talk about Amaterasu being a great fire healer, but I don't have her... I do have Brynhildr though... and in another player's case, they may not have either one....

it's more so that not much thinking ahead was really done and that's part of why some advice might have been misunderstood. but egos really do need to be let go at some point. it's great and all if you can solo something like wind disaster in 5 mins or less, but the real objective is just being able to clear it, not destroy it as if it was a daily quest....

[nonsensei]

I think MagicSpice got the gist of the problem. We have many players with various kind of spending habits. You can't simply make guides/suggestions in general because the world of a free-to-play player and someone who spends only for SSR stuff is already so different. And then I haven't considered the bigger whales, and the even higher, or the luck factor, or time on hand to grind stuff, etc., etc. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that making a guide is pointless or giving advice is impossible, just that with these different positions, we are bound to have different opinions. And you can't just simply gloss it over with "They're whales, their opinion doesn't matter." (excuse me for oversimplifying it).

[Shieun]

Asking a spending players to understand how f2p world looked like is not going to be easy too, and vice versa.

Both sides could do with not dismissing each other opinion because both have to make use of what they have. Spending players would have easier time as they would probably have a larger hime pool to base their solution on.

[sanahtlig]

Hey guys, sorry about not being able to really keep up with everything that goes on. I've always had to simply rely on being informed by others when a problem arises. This is not the only site I have to run, either. So of course attention gets divided quite a bit, including with my other activities as well.

That said, unregistered posting was something I decided to allow on a temporary basis - until it started becoming abused. It sounds to me like it may be time for it to be turned off, and now it is - for Kamihime forum.

Also, should anyone like to volunteer to moderate KH discussions, then please feel free to send me a message to request for it. It is always better for someone with more of an understanding of what is happening to moderate rather than myself who just enters when looking for someone causing trouble.

I hear HBC forum has a bad rep, and that's very unfortunate. This is something I'd like to correct.

Discussions are all well and good. Disagreements are fine, as they are unavoidable. Arguments can and will start as a result. However, as soon as it escalates to insults, the discussion should be over and offenders dealt with. Do NOT retaliate with more insults.
Thank you for the prompt response. Now that we know we have administrative support, we can start looking at the reforms required to tackle this issue. My greatest worry was that we could discuss this all day, but without the power to implement any structural changes, we'd be powerless to do anything except ask people to 'play nice'. Which is usually little more than a temporary band-aid.


So, technically, a few registered ones start a fight in this forum and the ones that get punished are the unregistered... That's quite interesting. And no, I'm not a second account to troll, was an unregistered a few minutes ago because I dont think you have to identify yourself to ask something, read the forum or even say an opinion without log in everytime.
No one is being punished. An unregistered user can become a registered user in under 5min. It's just a little less convenient for people who want to post once or twice and move on, rather than become part of the community. And that's a plus because we want to motivate people to become invested in the community, rather than simply come here to exchange ideas.


(paraphrased) The internet is a toxic place. And there's nothing to be done about it.
I disagree. Something has been done about it. And I hope we continue to strive to make this a place where everyone can be comfortable sharing their ideas--even controversial ones--without being persecuted. We can't control what people do off this site, but we can at least strive to make this a place for friendly discussion--and yes--disagreements. Every disagreement doesn't need to be two sides trying to discredit the other by any means necessary.

[Laventale]

Hey guys, sorry about not being able to really keep up with everything that goes on. I've always had to simply rely on being informed by others when a problem arises. This is not the only site I have to run, either. So of course attention gets divided quite a bit, including with my other activities as well.

That said, unregistered posting was something I decided to allow on a temporary basis - until it started becoming abused. It sounds to me like it may be time for it to be turned off, and now it is - for Kamihime forum.

Also, should anyone like to volunteer to moderate KH discussions, then please feel free to send me a message to request for it. It is always better for someone with more of an understanding of what is happening to moderate rather than myself who just enters when looking for someone causing trouble.

I hear HBC forum has a bad rep, and that's very unfortunate. This is something I'd like to correct.

Discussions are all well and good. Disagreements are fine, as they are unavoidable. Arguments can and will start as a result. However, as soon as it escalates to insults, the discussion should be over and offenders dealt with. Do NOT retaliate with more insults.

I'm always online, I don't have a problem on trying to moderate the forums if you need me to.

[lolix]

honestly Kotono , we both know how the whole Fark issue went on the Aigis subforum , so overall , i'm personally okay with stoping unregistered people from posting. But honestly , i don;t think what happened in this subforum in said thread is a direct consequence of having unregistered , seeing that there were also registered people arguing and being uncivil.

Honestly , having a moderator would solve most of the issues , i agree

[sanahtlig]

I see that various groups are dissatisfied with my guide, or parts of it. I write guides about topics that interest me. There are topics I don't cover, or don't cover every angle on. Just because I or others don't write about something, or respond to a given argument, doesn't mean I/we're dismissing it. We all have lives outside this game, and limited attention to devote to any given project, task, or conversation.

If you want me to write about something, request it--publicly is best. If you have issue with something I've written, detail the issue and suggest an alternative. While I can't satisfy everyone all the time, I'll try to satisfy as many as possible some of the time within the scope of the effort I'm willing to put in. But in the end, what I do is a personal project--and yes, often highly subjective and reflecting my personal viewpoint at a given time--and you're free to use or not use the resources I provide. You're also free to say when you disagree and state your alternative view.

One goal of my project is entirely selfish: to document responses in the past so I don't need to repeat them over and over in the future. Because I really hate repeating myself. But! Just because my opinion changes doesn't mean the guide will change, especially immediately. Because again, my time and attention are limited and it's now a massive document. Some changes are difficult to implement. Others I just find tedious and don't want to do because this isn't my job. As with anything, use the guide as a starting point for discussion (as I always intended it to be) and not as a Bible that will tell you everything you ever need to know about everything. A lot of it is just the opinion of one person, however informed or uninformed it might be.

What my guide IS is a unique resource that doesn't shy away from the subjective, which I think is the problem many have with it. They have their own ideas, based on their own set of premises, and they can be VERY insistent on their objective truth. Instead of badgering me, I think these people would find that writing their own guide--written for general consumption, and not just loosely disseminated amongst their posse--would be a more productive use of their time.

[sanahtlig]

honestly Kotono , we both know how the whole Fark issue went on the Aigis subforum , so overall , i'm personally okay with stoping unregistered people from posting. But honestly , i don;t think what happened in this subforum in said thread is a direct consequence of having unregistered , seeing that there were also registered people arguing and being uncivil.

Honestly , having a moderator would solve most of the issues , i agree
If registered users can just log out and act out their aggressive impulses using an unregistered account, I don't think anything else we do will matter (including imposing moderation). Also, you're focusing too much on the straw that broke the camel's back. This is just the latest conflagration resulting from an underlying pattern of behavior, which unregistered accounts contributed to.

Regardless, community building requires asking for a degree of commitment. If people just want a question answered, there's other places for that. I would personally prefer a friendly environment for discussion, rather than a simple Q&A hub.

[Marigold]

As said before not by me but by other user, do your thing but don't advice in something you don't know with a speculative theory atleast don't if the topic isn't a discussion but a question.

Or you can just neglect this I guess lol.
I find your guide really opinionated but it's okay most of the time, where your content shine is in your calculator.

[sanahtlig]

I find your guide really opinionated but it's okay most of the time, where your content shine is in your calculator.
The calculators were my first project. But as it turned out, there was little interest in them because most people found them too hard to use. I and a few veterans used them, and that was about it.

I moved to guides because the sources in English were nearly content-less, and the most motivated individuals were sort of blindly trying to interpret the JP wiki using Google Translate.

Based on my survey, 50% of respondents use my guide heavily. Only 10% use my calculators. So it's pretty obvious where the interest is.

I am entitled to share my experiences and speculation on NEW AND UPCOMING CONTENT, even when they might not constitute an "optimal" strategy. I'm sort of baffled that I get treated differently, often with greater hostility and critical scrutiny, than a new user posting the same sorts of ideas. Why am I held to a different standard than others?

[Marigold]

I am entitled to share my experiences and speculation on NEW AND UPCOMING CONTENT, even when they might not constitute an "optimal" strategy. I'm sort of baffled that I get treated differently, often with greater hostility and critical scrutiny, than a new user posting the same sorts of ideas. Why am I held to a different standard than others?

Here's where I find some of your argument isn't as clever or mature as you may feel, or in the lesser side of things you aren't just paying attention or reading properly.

Yes, you CAN but that doesn't mean you SHOULD, not as you did earlier on on the other thread, not as you've done a few times now, not because you CAN speculate or give your personal opinion on something you SHOULD when the poster is asking for a concise strategy to go through, at least not in the same thread, and if you do make a disclaimer that it isn't a definitive way.

It's simple logic that if you are a veteran 2015 user, you answer to almost everything, you have even a guide on the game you'll be treated differently than an unregistered user with no reputation to speak of, your words hold more weight than theirs.

[sanahtlig]

Here's where I find some of your argument isn't as clever or mature as you may feel, or in the lesser side of things you aren't just paying attention or reading properly.
See, this is why I can't have discussions with you. You always attack the other side's credibility in a disagreement. You bully, demean, and aggressively attack others. To be honest, I don't think you belong here. But that's not my call. However, in my opinion, you are the poster-child of why this board needs moderation.


It's simple logic that if you are a veteran 2015 user
I don't even know what this means.

In any case, you just blew whatever good will I had towards you. I tried to extend an olive branch, but you slapped my hand away. Good day.

[Marigold]

Yet another post that reinforces my declarations, let other users that aren't your or my friends decide rather than doing it by yourself.

[artista]

See, this is why I can't have discussions with you. You always attack the other side's credibility in a disagreement. You bully, demean, and aggressively attack others. To be honest, I don't think you belong here. But that's not my call. However, in my opinion, you are the poster-child of why this board needs moderation.



Tell me, mods would censor that post?? I dont really see anything bad about his post and I feel you just overreact to everything.

[sanahtlig]

Tell me, mods would censor that post?? I dont really see anything bad about his post and I feel you just overreact to everything.

Here's a sampling of Neverbloom's previous posts, all in a 1-2 day span in the same topic (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4367-wind-catastrophe.html):

You're retarded and even your old arguments with older forum members show it, now you're just being dumb for being dumb

Sanah, you're a bad player with a mediocre strategy, that's why you struggle here

There's no need for you to play victim because I called out your boyfriend who is as incompetent as you, man on.

If you can't understand this then you're a special snowflake bigot with an over inflated ego.

Moderators don't just exist to censor heated arguments into submission. They exist to remove repeat offenders who make the community less pleasant for everyone, when necessary. In my opinion, that's actually the more important function.

[Slashley]

Tell me, mods would censor that post?? --At this point, it would be good to have a third party moderator. One that isn't involved in "this side" or "that side." Why do these arbitrary sides even exist... who defines them?
Anyway. Then those mods could make the call on is that permissable or not.

lolix seems to have a long, long history with HBC, and yet is fairly new on Kamihime side. Why not start there?

[Marigold]

Keyword is previous and also, there's this after post that you ignored as always for convenience, it doesn't come nearly close to you overreacting to my today's posts.


regardless of it; have a good one and maybe we both can learn from each other later, we were both wrong in our ways after all, you by sneaking your nose in something you don't understand and me by being unpolite and rude, cheers.


It's even on this thread rather than the old ones, to be fair I don't know know what you're trying to prove, that you're always right, that is okay to missinform players that have your opinion on a high standard, you maybe want absolute power over the board for an unknown reason?
All of this while discrediting that the other part already assumed his mistake, you just won't accept yours, I already apologized, a few other members also said that you both shouldn't do what you did but still, you both aren't backing down, now tell me who is wrong and who doesn't belong here.

***Added text

Moderators don't just exist to censor heated arguments into submission. They exist to remove repeat offenders who make the community less pleasant for everyone, when necessary. In my opinion, that's actually the more important function.

As someone said before, there wouldn't be a need for someone to explode in a manner of unpoliteness and rudeness like a few unregistered users, BakaHentai, Ikki or I did in the past if there was no trigger over it and two of those three timea the trigger was misinformation by a pair of special members that make this community the least pleasant to others when you give it as factual information when it doesn't even work for you.

If something this issues make the community unpleasant for you and what you personally want it to be, not the whole of us, since you don't want to help the community but something else, how do I assume this?
You just said it egotistically when regarding a player asking for a concise strategy:


I am entitled to share my experiences and speculation on NEW AND UPCOMING CONTENT, even when they might not constitute an "optimal" strategy.

Now again, let others decide rather than biasing your way and ignoring the better latter part and or the apologies and giving a bad impression with your one sided quotes.

[sanahtlig]

Do we have any other volunteers for moderators beside Laventale? I'd volunteer myself but I'm not in a position to adjudicate the current situation. It'd be ideal to have at least 3 to bring different perspectives and diffuse the workload to something that's manageable as a hobby and not as a job. Personally, I nominate Aidoru.

[Slashley]

--you both aren't backing down,--Just to clarify, am I correct to assume that "both" refers to me as the second person?
As someone said before, there wouldn't be a need for someone to explode in a manner of unpoliteness and rudeness like a few unregistered users, BakaHentai, Ikki or I did in the past if there was no trigger over it and two of those three timea the trigger was misinformation by a pair of special members that make this community the least pleasant to others when you give it as factual information when it doesn't even work for you.Define "least pleasant to others"?

Also, regarding misinformation, there's always the option to argue back. That's the thing though - argue. As in, present arguments. There's always a cause for an effect, and explaining that reason is the point of an argument. "Because I said so" is not an argument, neither is "because somebody else said so and agreed with me."

An "explosion in a manner of unpoliteness and rudeness" is not part of the argumentation process, nor does it contribute in any way, shape or form towards the correction of misinformation nor the "pleasant to others" factor. And yet, you've done just that. Why?

[Marigold]

Just to clarify, am I correct to assume that "both" refers to me as the second person?
Exactly but pointing at people is mean, so I won't do it(?


Define "least pleasant to others"?
Alright, let me elaborate on this one.
As I said and quoted from sanahtlig's message:

Moderators don't just exist to censor heated arguments into submission. They exist to remove repeat offenders who make the community less pleasant for everyone, when necessary. In my opinion, that's actually the more important function.
This ^ doesn't only apply to insults, bad behavior or bragging, it also does to missinformation, fake assumptions, nor opinions/experiences disguised as definitive strategies over a topic and it's why a few discussions have started, because instead of doing it on a separate thread the speculation is given as a definitive answer to the OP on the same thread, opinions over the metagame tiers that haven't even arrived to our version given as blatant proof other than just mere speculation or even sharing a non-optimal strategy as a must do for players when asked for one and desguising it as the only true way.
This sadly makes the community least pleasant to others other than the " repeated offenders".
No one's ways are perfect and if both parties are involved in the process it is because both were wrong at some point or still are, that's how democracy, justice and mediation works in most world countries.


E: The strategy you corrected and I agreed with being accepted openly more than the opinionated one you gave:

In fact, my lasts runs on Catastrophe, with Arthur, where much better that the first ones with Mordred and trying to land debuff like usual, so I can partially agree with some people

Relying on debuffs on wrag when wrag is more about team composition (having dakki) and grid, saying that baalU isnt good even tho top dmm players use her in every thunder team, basing all your arguments on the def/atk debuff cap, when plenty of top tier teams dont even care if they have atk down or not (some even lack the 50% def down until herc bursts), just to name a few, all of this above is missinfo coming from you.

Your best bet for farming the wind rag is to just run a fire team with heals and defense buffs/damage cuts. You might not be able to solo it like I can, but it would sure as hell be far more consistent for getting mvp, vs running an off-element team and praying for any debuff to land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N49LEtdVUaY&t...
...The only way your water team will do well is by getting lucky with debuffs. A fire team with Joan/Andro and a good grid will consistantly outpreform other elements. Fire is the least reliant on debuffs of all the elements. That's why it does so well against wind.

since this rag is a bitch in terms of debuffs landing, you rely on dmg cuts

you wont kill wind ragna with off-element easily (let alone solo it), sorry but thats not happening (unless you are on Maru's lvl of whaling and even so im doubtful), relying on debuffs is your first mistake, she has lower base defense but high debuff rst for something, people are getting good results using joan with fire, but since you arent using fire, you are losing on 25% reduced dmg, all in all, fire is the best choice by far, relying on debuffs for dmg and specially atk downs for stalling is bad (you want dmg cuts against this boss), im afraid you are experiencing the downsides of mono element path.

*Also note the whole BakaHentai Mono vs Rainbow discussion* it came to a giant fight because you advised on something that isn't 100% proved or agreed on by the community and thus shouldn't been advised to begin with but discussed on another thread.



E: People regarding misinformation on HBC as poorly reputed ignorance regarding Kamihime that by extent makes the place the least pleasent to be in:

Tbh both ways are wrong, sana and slash thinking they know stuff when they dont (advicing on content they dont clear/struggle) and players speaking truth but in a harsh manner, so first thing first:
1- Stop advicing on content you cant clear/struggle, that just spreads the missinfo further and increases the bad reputation hbc already has in terms of kh ignorance.
2- Choose the words wisely when speaking trush, as some1 said, without insults.
If point 1 is satisfied, people wont have any need of calling some1 out and will give advice as such without insults, cause you know, they get pissed when people think they know stuff when they actually dont.

For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

We have many players with various kind of spending habits. You can't simply make guides/suggestions in general because the world of a free-to-play player and someone who spends only for SSR stuff is already so different...
...And you can't just simply gloss it over with "They're whales, their opinion doesn't matter." (excuse me for oversimplifying it).






Also, regarding misinformation, there's always the option to argue back. That's the thing though - argue. As in, present arguments. There's always a cause for an effect, and explaining that reason is the point of an argument. "Because I said so" is not an argument, neither is "because somebody else said so and agreed with me."
About this, correct, there's always the option to argue back or explain in a dedicated thread but not the same in which speculation shouldn't have been posted in to begin with, also doing this in a respectful manner to try and meet both conditions.

The latter is an okay way to think if the evidence of the argument being the correct one wasn't there to begin with, I never advice over things I don't comprehend or clear, it would be bad of my part, even speculation should be done in a matter of obviousness while asking for a better opinion on the same response if on the same thread, and if I've done otherwise I deeply apologize about it since I don't feel it could help that current user who asked in any way, shape or form but confuse them.



An "explosion in a manner of unpoliteness and rudeness" is not part of the argumentation process, nor does it contribute in any way, shape or form towards the correction of misinformation nor the "pleasant to others" factor. And yet, you've done just that. Why?

I did and you're correct, that's why I accepted I was wrong when doing so as quoted previously alongside my response for it

regardless of it; have a good one and maybe we both can learn from each other later, we were both wrong in our ways after all, you by sneaking your nose in something you don't understand and me by being unpolite and rude, cheers.
And here

...since a big number of players desert the game over being stuck at some point, a bad advice, a speculative one or a missinformed discussion about it can led to it, the fact that your friend was "correcting" a player that gave a good advice with a bad one was the main motivation behind it.

Now, what are your thoughts on it?

[gibberish]

First off, let me say I see no problems in what VeryVoodoo said in the topic that's linked. I don't know why or how that sparked this topic. If it had anything to do with the general discussion debate you two had over 'what's optimal', that's on you. It's a general discussion topic, not a only-answer-my-question topic. However, it doesn't mean I agree with either of you in that topic either.

Second, I am disappointed to see that preventing unregistered users from posting was the first action taken. It solves absolutely nothing. Literally. I say this because it took me less time to make an account than it took me to do the captcha needed to post as a unregistered.

Following that, the idea that unregistered users were part of the problem is completely asinine. It is registered users who go on about attacking each other and them again using an unregistered account to circle jerk the person they're attacking. There haven't been many, only 3 I can think of that would do so. But because it takes literally no effort to make an alt account on this site, forcing users to register changes nothing, existing users can make an alt account in an instant, they simply aren't called unregistered anymore.

I really don't want to jump the gun on this but the only problem I ever repeatedly see on these forums that needs to be addressed is Neverbloom's and Slashley's consistent arguments seen throughout various topics. There's no problem at all when it comes to correcting people if they post wrong information or make mistakes, but from my time on these forums, most of the time, it's just blatantly used as a excuse or chance to insult and attack the other.

As for moderation. I really hope that isn't given to someone who just happens to ask politely. There are very few people I would even recommend to give moderator powers on these forums, especially those who frequent the kamihime forums as the community here is very small yet seemingly so divided.

My opinion on the overall matter however, is that people are taking this far too out of proportion, but of course, in the end, my opinion probably doesn't matter since I'm just a random lurker forced to make an account just to post my thought.

[sanahtlig]

First off, let me say I see no problems in what VeryVoodoo said in the topic that's linked.
Neverbloom deleted his post right below VeryVoodoo's after I called him out, presumably in order to misdirect people like yourself (see Slashley's quotes of the missing post below mine). Also, remember that this is a pattern of behavior. Not just one incident.

[Kotono]

Alright, upon request - I have appointed Laventale with the ability to moderate discussion and, if needed, issue bans.

For now, I think there is still room for one more mod should anyone else want to accept the role.




My opinion on the overall matter however, is that people are taking this far too out of proportion, but of course, in the end, my opinion probably doesn't matter since I'm just a random lurker forced to make an account just to post my thought.

All I have done so far is what has been asked of me, both in PMs and in posts. There have been numerous cases of people taking advantage of being anonymous (at least, to those who can't see IP address) to do what they want. And it is not something that affects only this one forum area, all of them are subject to the same treatment.
Regardless, this does not mean the ability will never be restored. It is a privilege allowed as long as it is not abused, and discussions can be kept on a reasonable tone without interference from guest posters looking to cause problems.
I will leave the final decision up to the mod team - even if it is only one person for now. If he gives me the OK to turn it back on, then sure.

If people have opinions to share with me on this or any other matter, then please feel free. Openly or via PM are both fine. You can even use the "Contact Us" link in the footer, for those that don't want to register.
We also have the discord link that is in my signature. Can talk to me from there as well.

[Marigold]

Neverbloom deleted his post right below VeryVoodoo's after I called him out, presumably in order to misdirect people like yourself (see Slashley's quotes of the missing post below mine). Also, remember that this is a pattern of behavior. Not just one incident.

Funny guy, I deleted them since It was a mistake and Slashley didn't deserve such a harsh treatment but they're still in this thread, also I deleted them before you posted the comment, I don't care about you on any way shape or form or your misguided one sided opinionated posts, I would've even if this thread wasn't created.
You seem to preach on mediation and discussion but when you're confronting someone, be it civilizedly or in an aggressive manner you just ignore the opposite and flee; thus you aren't worth arguing or discussing with, funnily enough, yesterday two users said this exact words about you.

I'm just clearing this out because I don't want you or anyone misbelieving a one sided opinion like they normally do on this forum, regardless of it, we have lavantale to decide for it.

[sanahtlig]

If people have opinions to share with me on this or any other matter, then please feel free. Openly or via PM are both fine. You can even use the "Contact Us" link in the footer, for those that don't want to register.
We really appreciate you taking your time to help with this matter. I'm sure you're busy and sorting out disputes like this is probably tiresome. Thanks for doing your best to improve the community.

[Kirito94]

bootlicking and bitching 2stronk5me on this thread

[Kotono]

bootlicking and bitching 2stronk5me on this thread

Thanks for showing me what I need to do next.

Looks like it wasn't the first time for you in this same thread, either.

[Laventale]

Thank you for giving me this responsability! I'll do my best.

[lolix]

lolix seems to have a long, long history with HBC, and yet is fairly new on Kamihime side. Why not start there?

Because to be perfectly honest , i'm probably not suited to that , mostly because I also tend to get into heated arguments at times.

[Unregistered user]

Tbh, both parties should chill a bit before posting or just have the willing to talk and share experiences without getting involved personally. Both parties are playing a game I'm exhausted to see...

[sanahtlig]

It wasn't. I thanked Kotono for selecting a moderator to mediate this and future disputes and imposing a technical control to help mitigate abuse. Neverbloom appears to have gotten himself banned...

[Unregistered user]

It wasn't. I thanked Kotono for selecting a moderator to mediate this and future disputes and imposing a technical control to help mitigate abuse. Neverbloom appears to have gotten himself banned for using an alt account to try and hide his identity in defiance of the new policy--and this happened after my post.

As you did before, you could have thanked him via PM, discord,... But doing it here in an open post where people are saying opinions about the matter of toxicity implies that you want to show yourself as a "good party" in the matter as you position yourself at the same side of the one with real power in here. That's a game I have seen too much being it in classroom asking the teacher, praising the boss at work and a large etc, and that is something I saw not only in this post, but in others of yours. So you should try for once relaxing and not setting things up so you can cover yourself in case of emergency.

And in a side note, I'm not saying things to hurt anyone but to try to say things under my point of view, consider it a third party that has nothing to do with the argue both parties are having so you can see things into a fresh new point of view without thinking "You are from the other party and I won't listen to anything that you say, I will only read this to answer you in a way I came with the truth (my truth)" and try to finish this fight. Maybe, with some luck, all can learn about this and have a proper discussion in the future without getting involved into personal fights.

[Pareidolia]

That's somewhat true, I had an account called Sogenmu and this one, hence the one week ban (I just remembered I had this account here as well)

Now, I don't feel ashamed of what happened at all since we we're both wrong and atleast accepted it and apologized over it, what I hope is that this whole incident also helped the other party realize it's mistake as pointed not only by me but by a handful of forum members in my latter posts, I know at least one did, forthe other; I'm starting to believe that he'll never change and will go out of his way to get what he wants, so meh; this might serve to other users regardless of him learning or dismissing the whole point over the cat-fight that came before the whole discussion.

To end with this, my final post on this forum, if I could I would deactivate (delete permanently) these accounts but as it stands it's not possible, what I can and will do is dismiss this forum as long as the behavior that I was trying to prevent keeps happening and that will be the case for as long as some other member I won't point at won't change, accept his mistake or leave.

I hope you understand that I wasn't arguing or discussing over "toxicity" or "insults" over the two threads but missinformation and the form in which it's used, since as far as I'm concerned, I used to forum to help others but myself.

Now, have a good one and cheers.


Sincerely:
-Neverbloom

[Laventale]

That's somewhat true, I had an account called Sogenmu and this one, hence the one week ban (I just remembered I had this account here as well)

Now, I don't feel ashamed of what happened at all since we we're both wrong and atleast accepted it and apologized over it, what I hope is that this whole incident also helped the other party realize it's mistake as pointed not only by me but by a handful of forum members in my latter posts, I know at least one did, forthe other; I'm starting to believe that he'll never change and will go out of his way to get what he wants, so meh; this might serve to other users regardless of him learning or dismissing the whole point over the cat-fight that came before the whole discussion.

To end with this, my final post on this forum, if I could I would deactivate (delete permanently) these accounts but as it stands it's not possible, what I can and will do is dismiss this forum as long as the behavior that I was trying to prevent keeps happening and that will be the case for as long as some other member I won't point at won't change, accept his mistake or leave.

I hope you understand that I wasn't arguing or discussing over "toxicity" or "insults" over the two threads but missinformation and the form in which it's used, since as far as I'm concerned, I used to forum to help others but myself.

Now, have a good one and cheers.


Sincerely:
-Neverbloom

Everything is cool and all but there's absolutely no need to throw a hiss for everything that happened, tbh.

And excluding yourself from the forums without anyone asking for it is kinda childish, but whatever pleases you the most...

Anyway, good luck in your future endeavors.

[Laventale]

Given that there's nothing else to discuss over here, I'll feel free to close this thread.

Hope everything got sorted out. If something like this happens again, feel free to report the problematic person or talk directly to me.