Consolidated Light Team Topic [Archive]

QXZ

03-28-2018, 01:05 AM

Hi guys,

I want to create a thread focused around Light Team to help other players running Light as well as getting feedback if I am wrong. Most of the information here is based on Sanahtlig's Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19K_dU3rCief_ajPGS9YBuVdxXBYFyCGGXAxYYyK0jzg/edit#), modified for comments from other experienced players.

Light Element
Light element deals 45% more dmg to and receives 25% dmg less from Dark. Deals 3% more dmg to remaining elements, except Light.
Light is the most versatile element, able to handle all game contents. However, Light can be lacking in dmg and takes a longer time to ramp up.
To play Light well, the player need to understand versatility and rotate the team when needed. In doing so, Light can still complete contents, despite not being able to see big numbers as some other elements may be accustomed to.

Souls
Mordred - This is the go-to soul for most beginners. Valued for her Black Propaganda and debuffs from Outrage. Often combined with Ambush (Gawain's Ex skill)

D'Art - Recommended 2nd Legendary soul. Valued for her Sniper Shot debuff, especially when not running Mordred.

Hercules - Recommended 3rd Legendary soul. Once you have a grid of 10x Light weapons, she becomes viable primary soul for daily contents. Her special Axe comes with 25% DEF debuff.

Andromeda - Used for Dark events. Dark Rag raid has lots of DOT attacks, and she will heal ALL allies, including those not in your party. Also, some dark events have 1-hit KO, where her revive is almost mandatory.

Morgan - Used for end game dmg build, relies on rampaging attacks - has a role in future meta

Shingen - Used for end game max burst build - has a role in future meta. In DMM Shingen and Herc are the most popular souls for Light

Kamihimes

Offensive Himes

Michael - MVP for Light with her buffs. She provides the dmg capabilities that Light sorely lacks. Her Awakening (~Feb 2919). She has a permanent place in your Light Team. Becomes meta in 2019.

SSR Artemis - #2 priority. Her 20% DEF debuff is the best. Future meta - she will be outclassed by better himes (ie Roux in June 2019). Current meta.

L Tsukuyomi - #3 priority. Her 15% DEF debuff is elemental. Note: Elemental debuff also reduce enemy resistance against afflictions. Future meta - she will fall out of favour when 20% DEF and 30% Light Resist debuff SSR himes become available (ie ~June+ 2019). Current meta.

Tishtrya (Future) - Has 15% ATK and DEF debuff. Common replacement for L Tsukuyomi. Becomes meta in 2019.

Takeminataka (Future) - The first true High DMG killing machine that Light has. Becomes meta in 2019.

Roux (aka Lugh, Future) - Common replacement for SSR Artemis. Has 20% DEF debuff and a higher dmg output than Artemis.

Iris (Future) - She has some tricky mechanics, but when used correctly, becomes almost broken. Becomes meta in 2019.

Defensive Himes

Sol - By far the #1 priority for Light users. All of her skills are highly useful. Most importantly, her ATK debuff is C Frame, making her irreplaceable in most situations. Future meta - in June+ 2019, the meta may become more offensive oriented, endgame teams might go without healers. Until then, Sol has a role in your team.

Note that in general, other than Sol, defensive himes have lower priority than offensive himes (above) - this is important to note when using miracle tickets.

Eros - For defensive builds. Her 20% ATK down is the best after Sol. However... see Raphael below.

Raphael - Like Eros, she provides ATK down, but only 15%, which makes her the inferior choice. That is until she gets awakening in June 2019, at which point she will get Overdrive Reduction AND Overdrive Extension, making her nearly broken.

WARNING: FOR NEW PLAYERS, IF YOU DID NOT ROLL EITHER MICHAEL OR SOL, YOU SHOULD REROLL YOUR ACCOUNT (unless you roll the 100% Light Eido)

Eidolons

Takemikazuchi, Sleipnir or Jack o Lantern - Allows (or greatly helps) you to run PF Burst builds without Shingen.
Cat Sith - 30% Elemental ATK is very strong at beginning of game.
Managarmr - 100% Elemental ATK. The End game Eidolon that everyone is looking for.
Barong - 40% Elemental ATK - current meta
Saint Nicholas - 45% Elemental ATK - current meta
Sphinx - 30% Elemental ATK, but most importantly - reduce affliction resistance, which is really important landing debuffs.

Vine - Necessary for some builds to reach max (50%) DEF debuff. No longer meta.
Yata/Jörmungandr - Sometimes needed to reach max (50%) ATK debuff. No longer meta.

Popular Builds

Versatile Build - Any Soul + Sol / LT / SSR Art / Eros (or Raphael) (per Sanahtlig's Guide) - CURRENT META

This build has a minimum of 40 ATK / 35 DEF debuff. The free Soul slot can be chosen to fit the Event / boss. Recommended for beginners. Those without Eros can use Raphael or Belobog. Those without SSR Art can use Diana or Gawain's Ambush. As of September 2018 (with release of SSR Art), this is the recommended team for Light. Raphael AW is much better than Eros.

Burst Build - Soul + Sol / LT / Michael / SSR Art (per Sanahtlig's Guide) - FUTURE META ~Feb 2019+ - see below

Burst builds are among the best end game builds. These builds are not recommended for players who are not intending to spend money on Miracle Tickets. There are multiple variants:

Hercules /w PF, swap SSR Art for Eros (per Aidoru) - NEXT META ~Feb 2019
Offers high dmg with more safety margin. LT can be replaced by SSR Art and Eros can be replaced by Raphael. Potentially saving you a Miracle Ticket worth of cash. Requires you to have Herc's Relic wpn though. Popular build on DMM.

Shingen /w Sniper Shot - FUTURE META ~May 2019
Best farming build, especially during burst hour. Problem is, you need at least the first 3 himes to work. If you lacked SSR Art, either use Diana or Vine for the DEF debuff. Timing has to be perfect, as you do not have Black Propaganda.

Arthur /w PF
Best overall damage. Pretty good for daily / recurring missions where you just need to plow thru as quickly as possible.

Morgan Rampage Build - Morgan /w BP + Sol / LT / SSR Art / Michael (per Sanahtlig)
Rampage build relies on Morgan to boost party dmg. Can swap Michael for Eros for endurance variant. This build uses the same himes as burst build. Popular build on DMM. One benefit of this build is it does not get limited by dmg cap, which hinders burst builds.

Weapons

Disasters Raids
Morgenstern Hammer (Disaster Raid Assault SR) is the weapon you want. In addition to MLB these weapons, you should upgrade their SLvl to 20.
Other disaster raid weapons - fill the rest of your grid with these weapons. Later on they become fodder.

Sacred Gun Garngun (Raid SSR) - this was the SSR wpn from Barong Raid event. They are now obtainable via Orichalcum Shop. It has the highest ATK at this time (Oct 2018).

Advent Wpns (SSR)
Advent wpns, like Phoenix Bow will get FLB into 4-star but their stats are not that great. Still, they get a secondary effect, which makes up for it.

Additionally, some specific SSR wpns to look out for are:
Longinus (SSR Lance from Shop) - Highest ATK with DA and ATK bonus
Raygun Solignight (Sol's release wpn) - ATK wpn with bonus to Ascension (healing) and auto-revive
Prideful Axe (Union event) - ATK wpn with bonus to exceed and ATK

Priority of weapons are: SSR ATK > SSR DEF > SR ATK > Off element SSR > SR DEF

Phantom Grid
Phantom weapons are obtained from raid quests (future content). These weapons are only useful when there are 6 weapons of the same type. The recommended weapon types for Light are Axes or Staves

End Game+
Based on DMM content, eventually, clearing contents at highest difficulty will like require having multiple elemental teams at your disposal. For example, completing Accessory Quest 5 on Light is still possible with a perfectly built Light Team, but your life is much easier using a decently picked Dark Team. Since the best way to farm high end Light gear is to use a Dark Team, and best way to farm high end Dark gear is to use a Light Team. In end game+, player is encouraged to have at least 2 elements. (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4423-consolidated-dark-team-topic.html) However, if a Light player happens by chance to pull a 100% eido or limited edition hime of an element other than Light or Dark, feel free to build up that element, instead of being forced into Dark.

Further reading
Bear's In-dept Analysis (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4410-consolidated-light-team-topic-2.html#post111497)
Bear's Answer to Accessory Quest 5 (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4410-consolidated-light-team-topic-post111688.html#post111688)
Bear's Late Game Wpn Grid (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/4410-consolidated-light-team-topic-post112807.html#post112807")

MagicSpice

03-28-2018, 01:10 AM

No Light Nike in that to pump out some damage output?

she is limited, but anyone that gets their hands on her would massively see a damage boost... could possibly take eros spot given joan's debuff is also A frame.

looking at this, it'd be hard to pass light nike up:
http://xn--hckqz0e9cygq471ahu9b.xn--wiki-4i9hs14f.com/index.php?%EF%BC%BB%E7%A5%9E%E6%A5%BD%E5%B7%AB%E5% A5%B3%EF%BC%BD%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B1

also, tish triya covers B frame debuffs too, making her another interesting choice

in fact, i get the feeling that guide was made before those kamihime were revealed, but i'm not entire sure on that

Mirage

03-28-2018, 04:46 AM

So far I find 2 probs here:

Sol is the most versatile KH, she is by no mean 1# priority. U dont want her in any dmg build, unless the boss has nasty self-buff or debuff.

Morgan build focus on make the most out of the few turn of her Rampage, so u want as much DATA buff as possible, and i see zero in your suggestion.

sanahtlig

03-28-2018, 08:10 AM

Morgan Rampage Build - Morgan /w BP + Sol / LT / SSR Art / Eros

I don't have much info on this. If anyone can help out, that be great. This particular iteration will require debuff from Eidos
The Berserk build works best when you can raise the combo attack rate very high. Otherwise you're probably better off running Shingen and a debuff or utility skill. And in any case, you'd want to replace Eros with Michael. Michael buffs Bursts and double attack rate.

It'd probably be useful to make a calculator that directly compares Berserk and Burst builds so people could compare spike damage across many conditions. In general, a Burst build will outclass a Berserk build (without Provisional Forest) when you can't squeeze out at least 3.5 additional attacks (not including Morgan) during the 2T Berserk period. And that's before even considering that Berserk is on a 10T CD while Provisional Forest is on a 6T CD.

Hercules Burst Build - Hercules /w PF + Sol / LT / Eros / Michael (per Aidoru)

Alternative to Shingen. Offers high dmg with more safety margin. Also cheaper to run. LT can be replaced by SSR Art and Eros can be replaced by Raphael. Potentially saving you a Miracle Ticket worth of cash. Requires you to have Herc's Relic wpn though.
Light Tsukuyomi is pretty valuable for Light. If anything, I'd get rid of Eros / Raphael. The extra debuff resistance down and Blind is invaluable.

Shingen Burst Build - Shingen /w Sniper Shot + Sol / LT / Michael / SSR Art (per Sanahtlig's Guide)

Best farming build, especially during burst hour. Problem is, you need exactly those 4 himes, or sub in Diana for SSR Art to work. Timing has to be perfect, as you do not have Black Propaganda. Not recommended for players not intending to spend money on Miracle Tickets.
You don't need SSR Artemis to make this work. Vine + arbitrary Light character are perfectly good fill-ins.

Yolodesu

03-28-2018, 08:39 AM

Michael buffs double attack rate

? nope. She only has a self assist with double attack. She will gain a party buff once awakened only.

sanahtlig

03-28-2018, 08:48 AM

? nope. She only has a self assist with double attack. She will gain a party buff once awakened only.
I'm talking about unreleased content (as per the topic). Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Cobblemaniac

03-28-2018, 10:19 AM

sanahtlig

03-28-2018, 11:25 AM

I just wanna drop in and point out something interesting: Mordred loses out to D'Art on burst dmg for newbies (assuming they rerolled for Sol and company) considering the only SSR light weapon out there that Mordred can wield before relic weapons is St Nicholas's sword.
People don't generally run Mordred to maximize Burst damage though. They run her for the free Black Propaganda, among other things. Though Light has less use for Mordred once the full complement of Relic weapons is available, she's still good if you want to auto something and you don't want Light Tsukuyomi's debuff to miss.

Aidoru

03-28-2018, 01:44 PM

I've been thinking about it and something I've notice that we haven't really been accounting for are eidolons. You can honestly use any soul you want Provisional Forest with a end game light team. You just need one or more of the following eidolons: Takemikazuchi, Sleipnir or Jack o Lantern. There's a few more further down the line that will work too as well, a light eidolon from a collaboration event that gives +10 burst and another light one from the next xmas raid event that gives zeal (same as Jack).

The cons:
-They require gacha eidolons or a raid event eidolon that have already passed or have yet to be released.
-It takes longer to set up in for some of them because of eidolon cooldowns, this being the biggest weakness compared to Shingen/Hercules build, reducing overall output and risky in general for some fights.
-None of them have -50% atk/def down even with eidolons, Hercules is the only one and Shingen if you're willing to drop Micheal.
-Also may reduce the effectiveness of the 100% light eidolon if using off element eidolons. (I'm not completely sure how they work but I believe the light 100% requires a full light eidolon grid for max effect?).

Examples:
-
Joan w/ PF, Micheal, Artemis, Tsukuyomi, Sol. At least 1 burst increase related eidolon.
This set up works quite nicely because Joan fills the missing a-frame atk down you lose from not having Raph or Eros and just having Joan in general provides a lot of defensive utilities, even more so depending on which weapon you choose. Micheal and the eidolon to fill the missing burst from PF within the 3 turns you have before it runs out.

Joan and Sol for -40% atk. Artemis and Tsukyomi for -35%. Additional -10% to both if factoring eidolons for 50/45 atk/def down.

-
Mordred w/ PF, Micheal, Artemis, Tsukuyomi, Sol. At least 1 burst increase related eidolon.
Like Joan, Mordred doesn't have any ways to increase her burst gain so Micheal and a eidolon are required. But simply having Mordred here makes your life easier due all she provides.

Mordred and Sol for -30% atk. Mordred, Artemis and Tsukyomi for -45%. Additional -10% to both if factoring eidolons for 40/50 atk/def down.

-
Morgan w/ PF, Artemis Tsukyomi, Sol, Eros/Raph. You don't need a eidolon for her build but you can still use one to hasten a second full burst.
Using her guaranteed Triple Attack buff on herself, she can fill the burst lost from PF in 2 turns on her own, meaning you can replace Micheal.

Sol and Eros for -40% atk (or 35% with Raph). Artemis and Tsukyomi for -35%. Additional -10% to both if factoring eidolons for 50/45 atk/def down.

-
Arthur w/ PF, Artemis Tsukyomi, Sol, Eros/Raph.
Same as Morgan except you can do it in a single turn with her skill that completely fills the burst gauge after using PF.

-
There's always the option of swapping out one of the defense down himes for a atk down if needed but since burst builds are generally about big numbers, I will opt for def down over atk downs.

Overall, many of the builds rely on Micheal but some of them don't actually need her to use Provisional Forest, she's there simply to speed things up, which is especially useful during burst hours. Hercules for example can get +50 burst within 2 turns on her own with her atk weapon that gives +30 burst and 2 regular attacks. Meaning you can can still get a full burst before PV runs out. Using Micheal, you can simply do it immediately.

Yolodesu

03-28-2018, 02:38 PM

-None of them have -50% atk/def down even with eidolons, Hercules is the only one and Shingen if you're willing to drop Micheal.

Your ex skill is free on Shingen so you can still run SS.

-Also may reduce the effectiveness of the 100% light eidolon if using off element eidolons. (I'm not completely sure how they work but I believe the light 100% requires a full light eidolon grid for max effect?).

Yep. and it seems like she always starts at 80% even MLB, meaning that you're loosing from 4% to 8% light atk for each non-light eidolon.
Edit : just to be precise , it only concern sub eidolons. You can still run Thunderbird or Behemoth as main/ support

No offense but i'm a bit skeptical about those build. I would agree with Arthur and Morgan, with Triya instead of Eros

Aidoru

03-28-2018, 02:40 PM

Your ex skill is free on Shingen so you can still run SS.

Yep. and it seems like she always starts at 80% even MLB, meaning that you're loosing from 4% to 8% light atk for each non-light eidolon.

Yea, seems I forgot Shingen's Ex skill slot, was too focused on Provisional Forest. So you can get 50 atk/def down on her too with the help of eidolons and without eidolons if you wanted to drop Micheal.

QXZ

03-29-2018, 12:28 AM

MagicSpice

03-29-2018, 01:47 AM

i don't know how her mechanics work, so i dont know what team to put her in.

info right here:

http://xn--hckqz0e9cygq471ahu9b.xn--wiki-4i9hs14f.com/index.php?%EF%BC%BB%E7%A5%9E%E6%A5%BD%E5%B7%AB%E5% A5%B3%EF%BC%BD%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B1

but to sum it up, she uses an ability that stacks amulets on the team, and consume those amulets through one ability to add attack power (also seems stackable) or use a second ability to consume 7 amulets to fill EVERYONE'S BURST GAUGES INSTANTLY... using amulets takes them from everyone

and her assist ability increases defense by 20% for every amulet currently stacked. not sure if this effects everyone, but it'll at least give her an additional 400% def (calculated to take 1/5th the original damage like this) if the amulets are fully stacked

so assuming you get full amulet boosts in time and stacked, that's 120% more attack power to the whole party with amulets to spare. she's pretty much a case of "stronger as the fight goes on"

Bear

03-29-2018, 11:40 PM

Just my 2cents as a DMM Light main since Halloween 2016. 
 
 
Before I start, I'm gonna say that the current Light team while versatile is still not the best damage dealer element. At least not until...

Yolodesu

03-30-2018, 02:58 AM

Thx for your long feedback!

I'm just wondering :

Tishtrya - One of the newest challenger who threatens Tsukuyomi's position on Light Team.
Did you mean Artemis? Tsuku is more or less your only option to reach the def cap, outside of Hercule.

Staff Morgan
Can you confirm that Morgan's assist skill (fata morgana) will be patched to work with the heroic staff? I'm pretty sure i've read it somewhere but i can't find it anymore.

Takeminakata If used right, however, shes a DPS machine
Sweet! If couldn't find much about her. I was wondering if she was viable at high lvl. Good to know ;)

Unregistered

03-30-2018, 03:15 AM

Thx for your long feedback!

I'm just wondering :

Did you mean Artemis? Tsuku is more or less your only option to reach the def cap, outside of Hercule.

Cause of this "who can also cast 15% Atk/Def down B + VoF" -> all of this is 1 single skill, its written on bear's response.

Yolodesu

03-30-2018, 03:34 AM

Cause of this "who can also cast 15% Atk/Def down B + VoF" -> all of this is 1 single skill, its written on bear's response.

I get it but still. If you're not relying on Hercule's debuff, you can run Tishtrya + Ambush, or Artemis + Sniper Shot, or both of them if you wan't to free your ex skill, but Tsukuyomi always has to be part of the team to reach -50% def

LeCrestfallen

03-30-2018, 04:56 AM

Damn thats one hell of a detailed explanation.... almost want you to write a second one about dark :D 
Good job, helped me with couple things that i was wondering myself and which direction i could...

sanahtlig

03-30-2018, 07:29 AM

That's all I can think of right now. Feel free to ask questions.
This is very nice: the first detailed guide I've seen for an element by an experienced DMM player. I'll add a link to this in my Light guide.

How does Light fare, without elemental advantage, in high-difficulty content like Accessory Quest Rank 5 where the boss has high affliction resistance, and might also have an extremely powerful overdrive that isn't easily tanked? How does Light compare to a duo of Prime elements for completing such content? Do you feel that Light Tsukuyomi's built-in affliction resistance down is sufficient, along with Sphinx, to obtain an acceptable debuff accuracy rate? How viable are damage builds for any element without elemental advantage and/or +100% eidolons?

Bear

03-30-2018, 10:13 AM

Did you mean Artemis? Tsuku is more or less your only option to reach the def cap, outside of Hercule.

I get it but still. If you're not relying on Hercule's debuff, you can run Tishtrya + Ambush, or Artemis + Sniper Shot, or both of them if you wan't to free your ex skill, but Tsukuyomi always has to be part of the team to reach -50% def

No. I mean Tsukuyomi. A significant number of meta builds (Assuming we are talking about bleeding edge meta builds viable for competitive dmg) are base off either Heracles / Arthur + Herc Axe. Mind you I'm not saying other hero builds aren't meta (Morgan and Shingen builds are still OP af). The current mentality on DMM is to reduce the number of pure healer / debuffer hime on team and make room for Attackers / DATAers / Burst Generators as much as possible, while maintaining debuff cap (or 45% minimum) when you FB. Tsukuyomi used to be irreplaceable because she's one of the only 2 SSR Light who can debuff. Tishtrya is the a contender who also brings very powerful buffs to the table, which certainly make Tsukuyomi look a bit lacking outside of vs Dark fights. That and the recent increasing numbers of new enemies that either spam self cleanses or outright rejects debuff reliant builds with extremely high resistance makes Tsukuyomi replaceable in more than just a few occasions. SSArty otoh, having a total of 7.2x + 3~3.5x multiplier worth of nukes vs any enemies gives her a much better standing than Tsukuyomi. Extra tip: Because it's so easy for SSArty to hit dmg cap with her 8-hit nuke, you can try what I'm doing myself: Stack Abi dmg up acc on her instead of the more traditional atk/def ones, and specialize her to do consistent high nuke dmg if not cap regardless of whether you have debuff on the target or not. That being said, I certainly Do NOT mean that Tsukuyomi is no longer good. I'm still running her on my team (...and not because I don't have Tish. Really. = =;)

Can you confirm that Morgan's assist skill (fata morgana) will be patched to work with the heroic staff? I'm pretty sure i've read it somewhere but i can't find it anymore.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean when they broke Morgan's skill to the point they had to remake the single ally 2x dmg berserk skill into a weak party 1.2x dmg berserk when they released her weapon?

Sweet! If couldn't find much about her. I was wondering if she was viable at high lvl. Good to know ;)

Showcase of Takeminakata

vs WinRag (with BT)
Heracles / Takeminakata / Mike / SSArty / Freyr
youtu.be/Yvvt1P4WoDg

===================================

A few more video logs I made for Light team. Note that these are only reference for what specific units can do in a fight and are by no means a standard of average player's Light Team or grid.

vs Trag
Mordred / Tsukuyomi / Sol / Eros / Diana, no Hero Weapon
youtu.be/_bs-1FCCqH4

vs GO Yggdrasil
Heracles / Takeminakata / Mike / SSArty / Tsukuyomi
youtu.be/Be6TrtyY5FE

vs Drag (with BT)
Heracles / Takeminakata / Mike / SSArty / Tsukuyomi
youtu.be/gtr88vzVHBM

vs Drag (Pre-Mike AW build, without BT)
Heracles / Tsukuyomi / SSArty / Sol / Freyr
youtu.be/X9x0qaMyu-4

Mission Team vs GO Nicholas
Arthur (Herc Axe) / Takeminakata / Mike AW / SSArty / Caspiel
youtu.be/09nhnSqf-BI

SR/R Only Team vs Drag
Andromeda / Diana / Belobog / Attar / Caspiel, no Hero Weapon
youtu.be/sRAvIlZNBYw

Shamash (Post Rebalance) Test Run vs WinRag
youtu.be/UROTd0d3uhA

Vishnu (Post Rebalance) Test Run vs GO Nicholas
youtu.be/dBDtfmtob2Y

R Only Team Solo Mission vs Fluerety EX Event Raid
youtu.be/gmD8c723pec

Cobblemaniac

03-30-2018, 10:57 AM

Wall of text

I'm curious about a few things, some not so important and others... maybe?? In no particular order...

1. What's with hating Sol? Was it the popularity vote snipe? :squint:

2. Did they fix awakened Sol's cleanse to work before healing? This is pretty much the thing I'm hoping the most, a Sol that works in auto battle against zombiefiers. And well, her sprite is crazy cute, but that's a separate issue.

3. Is it still a viable option to have Vine cover whatever def break your light team lacks? I'm assuming a huge no if you have one of the 100% light eidolons.

4. Are sword consumptions controllable for Takeminakata, or does she eat it every time she use an ability that spends one?

5. Does Tishtriya's debuff res down come first or her def/atk breaks?

Yolodesu

03-30-2018, 11:00 AM

A significant number of meta builds are base off either Heracles / Arthur + Herc Axe

Wait... I didn't even realize that you could equip an heroic weapon on another Soul. I guess you have to sacrifice weapon skill to do so...
I was planning to main Hercule anyway, i already have Michael on the team so burst generation shouldn't be an issue. That makes this axe top priority for sure.
But yeah that's what i was wondering. Tsuku can be replaced assuming you have the axe's debuff.

Stack Abi dmg up acc on her
Oh don't worry about that. I think i have mooooore than enough abi acc. She will be well equipped!

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean when they broke Morgan's skill to the point they had to remake the single ally 2x dmg berserk skill into a weak party 1.2x dmg berserk when they released her weapon?

No, i mean the x3 hit buff cooldown, that is reduced from 10 to 8 when your main weapon is an arcane weapon (because of Morgan's assist skill). It's not supposed to work with a staff, but i'm pretty sure i've read a patch note or something that was saying "it works with heroic staff".
But since i don't want to say false things, i'll look for it properly when i'll have some time.

And i'll also look at all those vids you've linked.
Thx mate ;) you're a goldmine

Edit : Nvm, i must have been dreaming. After watching your wind rag vid i can clearly see nothing changed with Morgan. I'm completely in love with the new KH btw! I'm pretty sure she's Yojimbo's daughter from ff10. And i'm not even talking about AW Michael. I look at mine now and i'm.... dissapointed

ps :sorry if my English isn't really accurate. It's not my first language

Bear

03-31-2018, 12:39 AM

This is very nice: the first detailed guide I've seen for an element by an experienced DMM player. I'll add a link to this in my Light guide.

A> How does Light fare, without elemental advantage, in high-difficulty content like Accessory Quest Rank 5 where the boss has high affliction resistance, and might also have an extremely powerful overdrive that isn't easily tanked?

B> How does Light compare to a duo of Prime elements for completing such content?

C>Do you feel that Light Tsukuyomi's built-in affliction resistance down is sufficient, along with Sphinx, to obtain an acceptable debuff accuracy rate?

D>How viable are damage builds for any element without elemental advantage and/or +100% eidolons?

A) AQ5 does not have noticeable resistance. You aren't going to miss much as long as you're not being stupid / crazy bored like trying to land Thor para against Wind AQ. Honest truth #1: Either you have strong and well-invested enough grid that you can stun Andromalius within 5 turns (or 6 if you run BP), or you play turtle and tank it in the face with Jeanne + Tank SSR hime + Kaiser element cut or w/e combination that gives you 95% or more dmg cut. There is no shortcut.

B) Honest truth #2: Elemental advantage will always be superior. Huge difference in plain sight, no matter raw power, damage mitigation and debuff rate. I main Light simply because I like playing Light and decided to put all my extra resources on it. Does not mean I won't switch to elemental advantage when situation demands it. i.e. GO and Tower.

C) Honest truth #3: Tsukuyomi's debuff are nice and all but I wouldn't rely on it. In fact I wouldn't run a grid that depends entirely on debuff. Especially not with the increasing number of new contents that either counter your debuff with cleanse spam or outright no-sell. If debuff lands, nice bonus damage. I try to maximize my chance for merry big numbers too with accessories and stuff. But if it ends up missing anyway, I make sure my build can still win without it. If I lose, that means I got more work to do. Simple as that. I made that mistake with my water team and it got utterly destroyed in Fire Tower while my Light/Dark/Fire team all pulled their weight. I'm not about to repeat that same mistake again.

D) Honest truth #4: You will always assume that one will be borrowing 100%s for the hardest contents as much as possible, be it for fast clearing or simple insurance. You don't need to own one, but I see no reason why you shouldn't go ahead and borrow one for free. Other players aren't gonna restrict themselves either. I certainly ain't gonna walk into Tower without one when I have only one chance to attempt full mission clear. Plus it's ranked. You can say ranking is pointless all you want, but I want my extra medals to buy more bricks.

I'm curious about a few things, some not so important and others... maybe?? In no particular order...

1. What's with hating Sol? Was it the popularity vote snipe? :squint:

2. Did they fix awakened Sol's cleanse to work before healing? This is pretty much the thing I'm hoping the most, a Sol that works in auto battle against zombiefiers. And well, her sprite is crazy cute, but that's a separate issue.

3. Is it still a viable option to have Vine cover whatever def break your light team lacks? I'm assuming a huge no if you have one of the 100% light eidolons.

4. Are sword consumptions controllable for Takeminakata, or does she eat it every time she use an ability that spends one?

5. Does Tishtriya's debuff res down come first or her def/atk breaks?

1. Just to be clear I don't hate Sol myself. I got no qualms about using her when situation demands it.

2. Pretty sure that's intended hinderance.

3. No and no. It's not a viable option simply because Light Team is already running short on raw stats. Vine is just a big NG. Secondly there's simply no reason to run Vine when we got Heracles who does the job better and faster.

4. Her abilities will always consume a single blade stack per use (and her burst consumes ALL). You will have to learn to time her usage of abilities in order to maximize her performance.

5. After. Another one of those intended hinderance.

Slashley

03-31-2018, 02:33 AM

--
C) Honest truth #3: Tsukuyomi's debuff are nice and all but I wouldn't rely on it. In fact I wouldn't run a grid that depends entirely on debuff. Especially not with the increasing number of new contents that either counter your debuff with cleanse spam or outright no-sell. If debuff lands, nice bonus damage. I try to maximize my chance for merry big numbers too with accessories and stuff. But if it ends up missing anyway, I make sure my build can still win without it. If I lose, that means I got more work to do. Simple as that. I made that mistake with my water team and it got utterly destroyed in Fire Tower while my Light/Dark/Fire team all pulled their weight. I'm not about to repeat that same mistake again.
--I don't understand the "not rely on debuff" thing.
So let's get this straight - you're saying that it's better to do double damage, than do debuffs and half damage?

While that's true, that's... not how it works, is it?
Dealing double damage is an outrageous problem. For example, even if you go from 90% elemental to 200% elemental, it's about 50% more damage. And that's pretty much the biggest damage boost you can hope - yet, it's nowhere near double damage.

Furthermore, there's a limit to all the upgrades you can do. Once you have everything at slvl20, and once FLBs are out, at slvl30, then you're at the cap that you can possibly reach. So, how does one casually just "have more work to do" when all the work is done...?

I see no inherent flaw to bringing debuffs. With the exception of very few select Kamihime (Svarog, Uriel, Light Nike) whose buffs make a huge difference to your damage output, I don't really see an alternative to debuffs. Either they land, or you do no damage, period. If your numbers are high enough, then doing no damage can be enough - but that's not something you can actually influence, due to the caps that the devs have placed on your ability to grow stronger in the game.

So, would you mind explaining just how your Light/Dark/Fire pulled their weight? Fire... well, fair enough (I assume Belial+Belial+Awakened Uriel+Awakened Svarog?), but Light didn't even have SSR Nike at that point in the game.

Unregistered

03-31-2018, 03:53 AM

I don't understand the "not rely on debuff" thing.
So let's get this straight - you're saying that it's better to do double damage, than do debuffs and half damage?

While that's true, that's... not how it works, is it?
Dealing double damage is an outrageous problem. For example, even if you go from 90% elemental to 200% elemental, it's about 50% more damage. And that's pretty much the biggest damage boost you can hope - yet, it's nowhere near double damage.

Furthermore, there's a limit to all the upgrades you can do. Once you have everything at slvl20, and once FLBs are out, at slvl30, then you're at the cap that you can possibly reach. So, how does one casually just "have more work to do" when all the work is done...?

I see no inherent flaw to bringing debuffs. With the exception of very few select Kamihime (Svarog, Uriel, Light Nike) whose buffs make a huge difference to your damage output, I don't really see an alternative to debuffs. Either they land, or you do no damage, period. If your numbers are high enough, then doing no damage can be enough - but that's not something you can actually influence, due to the caps that the devs have placed on your ability to grow stronger in the game.

So, would you mind explaining just how your Light/Dark/Fire pulled their weight? Fire... well, fair enough (I assume Belial+Belial+Awakened Uriel+Awakened Svarog?), but Light didn't even have SSR Nike at that point in the game.

You could prob go watch how Dysnomia works before answering as well since you clearly didnt get the point.

QXZ

03-31-2018, 04:23 AM

i am guessing the "late game" for Light is build a Dark team, lol

sanahtlig

03-31-2018, 06:00 AM

I don't understand the "not rely on debuff" thing.
In short, a lot of fights have damage checks of some sort, and some of those are debuff-unfriendly (apparently more frequently in future content). If you can't clear those damage checks without debuffs, then you're forced into an Endurance build--assuming that's even possible for a given encounter.

What are the alternatives to debuffs? Strong buffs. High-damage abilities. +100% eidolons. Damage builds such as Berserk and Burst builds. Debuffs can miss, but these will do consistent damage. You'll probably still want a standard line-up capable of reaching the debuff caps--but you should also ensure that you can output high damage without them when needed. That will typically mean picking up characters and Relic weapons that will enable you to maximize damage when it counts, even if this isn't the primary build you'll use for most content.

That's what I'm taking away from this, at least.

Thanks for continuing to follow this discussion and reply Bear. I find this a lot more useful than the busy and chaotic chats we've had on Discord that I'll likely never be able to find again.

AQ5 does not have noticeable resistance.
Huh. The JP wiki warned that the boss has notable debuff resistance. This wasn't something I could assess from videos, so I just took it at face-value. If it doesn't, that makes planning much easier.

Elemental advantage will always be superior.
Superior if you have equivalently strong characters between teams. Otherwise, maybe not. There's also the problem that leveling multiple grids is currently a real pain in our version. Apparently changes in the enhancement system have made this less of an issue in the DMM version.

You will always assume that one will be borrowing 100%s for the hardest contents as much as possible, be it for fast clearing or simple insurance. You don't need to own one, but I see no reason why you shouldn't go ahead and borrow one for free.
I don't write guides for best-case scenarios. That's the main issue issue I have with relying on +100% eidolons--same with you and debuffs.

Slashley

03-31-2018, 06:17 AM

You could prob go watch how Dysnomia works before answering as well since you clearly didnt get the point.Yes, I know it has ridiculous debuff resistance. The question is, what can you actually do about it?

sanahtlig gave at least a partial answer - using strong buffs (equal to a whopping three Hime in the game), building a team around around double full burst in as few turns as possible, using a Berserk build (built around Morgan I suppose) for a quick spike damage. But if that's enough - why can't you do that in Water?

sanahtlig

03-31-2018, 06:38 AM

why can't you do that in Water?
I don't know Bear's exact situation, but you need the right tools for the task (e.g., characters and appropriate Relic weapons). Fire was the first Tower event, and DMM players don't have a year's notice on upcoming content like we do. He probably didn't have the right tools on hand, but could have if he'd planned for it.

fucka

03-31-2018, 08:17 AM

AW Michael only higher than Eros? She will be core for rapid burst light team, which light was seeking for all the days. Finally u can get some use of the fantastic light f2p weapon grid.

QXZ

03-31-2018, 08:38 AM

which is exactly why AW Michael is not core.... shes only needed in those builds. high dmg is only useful if you can deal that damage to begin with.

AW Michael would be core in extremely high end situations. and this is including content in DMM. the other core himes are almost always useful.

sanahtlig

03-31-2018, 08:54 AM

End Game+
Based on DMM content, eventually, clearing contents at highest difficulty will like require elemental advantage. For example, completing Accessory Quest 5 on Light is still possible with a perfect Light Team, but your life is much easier using a decently picked Dark Team. Since the best way to farm high end Light gear is to use a Dark Team, and best way to farm high end Dark gear is to use a Light Team. In end game+, player is encouraged to have 2 teams.
I don't think this is quite right. Consider the hardest solo content available in the English and JP version: Accessory Quests, Guild Orders, Tower events. Of these, as far as I know only AQ gives you element-specific rewards. But AQ4 and AQ5 can be cleared with optimized same-element teams (caveat: Miracle tickets likely required). Guild Orders and Tower events give you rewards that can be used on any element. Therefore, if you main Light, having a Dark team is not necessarily more useful than, say, having a Fire team.

An Elemental advantage build is a completely different investment strategy that relies on having elemental advantage in most or all content, not just some. The point is to invest equally in multiple elements and make all of them endgame-capable, based on the assumption that 6 good teams will be stronger than 1 excellent team for clearing high-difficulty content.

Bear

03-31-2018, 10:50 AM

A > I don't understand the "not rely on debuff" thing.

B > So, would you mind explaining just how your Light/Dark/Fire pulled their weight? Fire... well, fair enough (I assume Belial+Belial+Awakened Uriel+Awakened Svarog?), but Light didn't even have SSR Nike at that point in the game.

C > Ridiculous Resistance

D > Why not water?

A) The above few already answered it. Buffs. And when I say buffs I dont mean the minor ones like Arthur buff / Element dmg up / Andromeda Def up and the likes. I'm talking about powerful ones like Stackable Buffs, Self/Party Burst up, Taunt + Counter, Dmg cuts, Barriers, High rate/Guaranteed DATA, Guaranteed Crit, Party Vigor, Party Berserk, Party Dodge, Kaiser shields etc. Notable examples that you already have: Poseidon, Cu Chulainn, Eros, Svarog AW, Titania AW. Later iconic examples: Ashirat, Pluto, Freyr, SSArtemis, Chernobog, Vishnu, Berith, Aether, Uriel AW, Mike AW.

B, C & D) I probably should make it clear that the ONLY 100% I own is Hraesvelgr. I do NOT need my own 100% to be able to kill everything and anything in KamiPro using my other element teams. You also do NOT need Light Nike to beat Tower as Light. All you need is to have played long enough for a invested grid and a deep enough roster. By roster, I mean ALL rarity, not just SSR. A significant number of whales got destroyed because they've either neglected their non-meta roster or simply run in without knowing how to use their sub-team hoping to roflstomp the stages with raw stats. As for why my Water team failed, I did not have the right hero weapon (I had Arthur sword cuz I was slacking on advanced water builds), and running a team with Aphro + Saraswati + Raphy + Poseidon (had to use Cthulhu/Ashirat for earlier floors) without a max grid simply was not enough dps to stun Dysnomia Phlox from spamming rage + trigger nuke back to back which completely overwhelmed my defense. Again, no matter how many times you ask me I will answer the same: You need a strong grid. No amount of defense can save you if you can't get out of rage phase within 3 turns. Water failing aside, I cleared Phlox just fine with my Light team, having enough firepower while defending against Dysnomia's mechanic as well as her brutal firepower. Afterwards I even find my team too defensive and could have went for a slightly more offensive line up which would have actually reduced the risk of units dying (and formation falling apart).

QXZ

03-31-2018, 12:41 PM

i wanna say a thank you to sanahtlig and bear for sharing these insights. helps alot to plan miracle picks long way into the future.

Bear

03-31-2018, 01:40 PM

A > Endurance build--assuming that's even possible for a given encounter.

B > Huh. The JP wiki warned that the boss has notable debuff resistance. This wasn't something I could assess from videos, so I just took it at face-value. If it doesn't, that makes planning much easier.

C > Superior if you have equivalently strong characters between teams. Otherwise, maybe not. There's also the problem that leveling multiple grids is currently a real pain in our version. Apparently changes in the enhancement system have made this less of an issue in the DMM version.

D > I don't write guides for best-case scenarios. That's the main issue issue I have with relying on +100% eidolons--same with you and debuffs.

A) General purpose yes. GO depends on boss. Some mobs/bosses either hit too hard or have % attacks that outright ignores your defense. Tower is NG for higher floors.

B) JP wiki, like you, tries to cater to players who barely got the absolute minimum requirement to clear said contents and to be as informative about any possible risk as possible. Otherwise it wouldn't be a wiki for general information. Indeed you can miss in AQ5, more often on the miniboss than Andromalius herself, which can screw weak players over. But the actual miss rate is like 10~15% as long as you're not using infamous crappy accuracy debuffs like Ambush / Snipe / Cthulhu debuff etc, which is rarely a bother for most veterans.

C) Just wait for gemcha revamp, which should be arriving on Nutaku soon. I didn't exactly get 6 Rag-viable grids within mere 6 months of play you know. To be exact I didn't start soloing Event Rag raids until Tiamat, during which I started power-SLing my grids to clear raid missions. Cuz completionist OCD.

D) You do yours. My purpose is to show the maximum potential of all available tools and how to squeeze every last ounce of their worth. Do take this fair warning though: Do not underestimate these future contents. Especially not Tower.

Slashley

03-31-2018, 02:03 PM

-- as long as you're not using infamous crappy accuracy debuffs like Ambush / Snipe / Cthulhu debuff etc --Ambush and Sniper Shot, sure. Since Souls can't get Accessory Affliction, sadly.

But is there any list of these "infamous" debuffs?

QXZ

03-31-2018, 02:18 PM

@Bear,

Given current DMM contents:

1. Whats your recommended requirement for AQ5? GO? and Tower?

2. Whats does your teams currently look like?

3. Whats the current meta in DMM for Light?

Thanks bro.

Slashley

03-31-2018, 02:30 PM

Ah, I see Bear edited his post. Thanks.
-- Again, no matter how many times you ask me I will answer the same: You need a strong grid.--So, the final question is - how do you define a strong grid? Does having played for ~18 months and gathered up all the SSR weapons and gotten them to slvl20 equal strong?

Bear

03-31-2018, 08:44 PM

Given current DMM contents:

1. Whats your recommended requirement for AQ5? GO? and Tower?

2. Whats does your teams currently look like?

3. Whats the current meta in DMM for Light?

Thanks bro.

1.
AQ5 is easy with a typical 100%+ assault grid with random 100% support. Max SL if you dont wanna bother with super supports. You only need enough firepower to stun Andromalius within 5 turns (about 5.5m dmg, 6T if you have BP), and more importantly to let you get through the miniboss, which is imho the only hard part of AQ5. Or just play turtle and stack 100% dmg cut with Jeanne + one tank hime + Kaiser cut.

youtu.be/Fqcu-4YknbA
Note that I failed the run on purpose to show what happens if you messed up on miniboss mechanic xD

GO actually has less requirement in terms of raw power. Perfectly doable even if you run SR team provided you have a decent grid + advantage + know what you're doing. Less if you have a full SSR team or a healthy mix of SSRs and SRs.

vs Thunder GO
youtu.be/IOEyPDN4xpQ
vs Light GO
youtu.be/Eo7p2xYRPS4

Tower I will mention in response towards Slashey. All I can say is, do not take it lightly.

2.
Hard to answer. I don't really have a fixed team as I change my team according to what I need or feel like trying. If you ask what team I use for daily chores like Rag raids and GO, then it's Herc, Takeminakata, Mikael, SSArty + wild card (Tsukuyomi or Freyr or Shamash or Sol depending on fight).

3. Quite a few. Most involving the big 4 meta heroes + Mikael, SSArty, Tishtrya, Takeminataka, Tsukuyomi, Freyr or Vishnu + Sol or Eros if defense, cleansing or dispel is needed.

the final question is - how do you define a strong grid? Does having played for ~18 months and gathered up all the SSR weapons and gotten them to slvl20 equal strong?

GO is ezpz with a average SL15~20 grid + elemental advantage.
Tower though, if you aiming for higher currency reward, nothing less than maxed SL grid + several +99 OR 2~3 FLB weapons (for extra skills) + close to max SL grid (no +99 needed). Thing is, you aren't going to be using your shiny SSR team for most of the floors because you need to save it for the final fight. You will be rotating through Rs, SRs, and probably your spare SSRs of a single element if you have any left. Not saying it's impossible to succeed with less, but I would not recommend it unless you have a thing for cutting it real close. Plus even if you meet all the hardware requirements
youtu.be/2U9r_Sv6tY8
nicovideo/watch/sm32850263
Simple mistakes can easily cost you your effort throughout the entire course of event.

Ambush and Sniper Shot, sure. Since Souls can't get Accessory Affliction, sadly.

But is there any list of these "infamous" debuffs?

The one's that I know of are mainly the hero ones plus Cthulhu, Satan's A frame, Ryuuou and Tyr.
There isn't really an official list but more a shared experience among players in active communities. In fact if you take a closer look at JP wiki comments you will find frequent complains about the accuracy of those few debuffs I mentioned. OTOH, notoriously accurate ones that I know of (and can confirm) are Amon U, Amaterasu (and her NY ver) and Samael.

Shingen's ATK weapon guarantees that she can get the PF buff when she Bursts. Therefore a Shingen build should work in any situation where a Hercules + PF build works, and has the added advantage of freeing up an EX slot. Given that Ambush (or Sniper Shot) + Vine yields a greater -DEF debuff than Hercules's Burst effect, I don't really see the niche that Hercules fills--unless you don't plan to run PF at all.

Actually, the main use I'd see of a Hercules build is making do without any source of DEF down at all, e.g., without Light Tsukuyomi. But at that point D'art becomes attractive, and requires a lot less investment.

Pardon me but I'm gonna have to address this post here because it's relevant to Light builds and I'm not about to let this misinformation overlooked. Just FYI Herc Weapon debuff is 25% and she can do it faster and better with her Burst Gain Rate up from Abi1 + 30 Burst Gauge from her Axe upgraded Abi3. Secondly, that 30 Burst Gauge I mentioned is exactly why she is meant to be used with PF. Saying that she's inferior to Vine's mere 10% is just, excuse my language but, ignorant.

sanahtlig

03-31-2018, 09:54 PM

You only need enough firepower to stun Andromalius within 5 turns (about 5.5m dmg, 6T if you have BP)
5 orbs = 6T, since the player always attacks first. The difference is important if you're trying to pull off a double Burst, especially with Provisional Forest.

Saying that she's inferior to Vine's mere 10% is just, excuse my language but, ignorant.
It's not -25% vs. -10%. It's -25% vs. -30%.

Bear

03-31-2018, 10:09 PM

It's not -25% vs. -10%. It's -25% vs. -30%.

You failed to mention 25% + the part about a free EX slot for PF vs 30%, where 20% occupies the same EX slot

There's also the fact that, if you do indeed lack or cannot freely use your debuffer hime at hand due to mission restriction / tower lock, Heracles alone can cover 45%.

sanahtlig

03-31-2018, 11:01 PM

You failed to mention 25% + the part about a free EX slot for PF vs 30%, where 20% occupies the same EX slot

There's also the fact that, if you do indeed lack or cannot freely use your debuffer hime at hand due to mission restriction / tower lock, Heracles alone can cover 45%.
Yes, all of this was already in the quote or implied by context--which was also qualified as speculation amidst other speculation in a thread focused on a different topic. That said, I am definitely interested in your ideas on when Hercules + PF is superior to Shingen.

Again, I appreciate your perspective, but I'd also appreciate not being combative for its own sake, though I realize this is fashionable in certain sections of the community. I'm sure you didn't join this community just to pick a fight with me, right? ...right?

Bear

04-01-2018, 12:18 AM

Yes, all of this was already in the quote or implied by context--which was also qualified as speculation amidst other speculation in a thread focused on a different topic. That said, I am definitely interested in your ideas on when Hercules + PF is superior to Shingen.

Again, I appreciate your perspective, but I'd also appreciate not being combative for its own sake, though I realize this is fashionable in certain sections of the community. I'm sure you didn't join this community just to pick a fight with me, right? ...right?

I have zero interest in you or your personal beef with whatever. But you can be sure that you will attract my attention if you speak of any misinformed insight and theory-crafting, genuine or not.

Anyway back on topic. I do not believe Heracles is superior over Shingen, nor is the other way around. As a matter of fact I find both equally viable and there is no reason to dismiss one over the other. Since this thread is about Light, I will focus on Light builds for these two and in what ways they excel.

Both heroes are both perfectly capable at using PF. Both also have good DATA rate, which in turn means consistent lead in burst gauge (so you don't end up waiting for the hero's gauge to perform FB).

Heracles covers the much needed debuff gap for Light Team. The nature of her nuke also gives her good synergy with Light, an element where party buff is abundant and can give Heracles so many buff stacks that she can reach straight for dmg cap with minimal debuff. She is also nigh unkillable during the 5T in which her def + reflect + regen buff is active. Should your party starts falling apart, you can almost be certain that Heracles will be the last 2 or 3 standing. A hero that can stay alive = more chance to use summon actives especially when one of those can turn the tide of battle.

Shingen can provide an okay-ish party DATA buff and is fast enough to burst twice before any other of team is ready for burst, further speeding up your FB speed. Light team units, before Tishtrya, Takeminakata and the advent of Mike AW, tend to be notoriously sluggish. Their only saving grace was Managarmr whose active is a very strong DATA buff, but still no where close to satisfactory. Shingen provides Light team a much needed boost in the speed department.

Choosing between Heracles and Shingen is like choosing between Raw Power and Speed. 'One Man Army' vs 'Slightly Faster Burst Cycle.' In the end it's entirely up to personal preference. I should mention though, Shingen has recently lost her edge against Heracles exactly because of the 3 mentioned units. But hey you can't really expect everyone to have those readily available so this point is half moot.

Example Heracles and Shingen builds... I was going to say that. But then I realize all my builds works with both Heracles and Shingen with only minor differences in performance, the differences I already mentioned above. In the end, just pick whoever suits your play style more. There's simply no logical nor practical purpose in trying to place one above the other. IMHO there would be more room for discussion if this were a comparison vs Arthur or Morgan -shrug-

Cobblemaniac

04-01-2018, 01:13 AM

Choosing between Heracles and Shingen is like choosing between Raw Power and Speed. 'One Man Army' vs 'Slightly Faster Burst Cycle.' In the end it's entirely up to personal preference. I should mention though, Shingen has recently lost her edge against Heracles exactly because of the 3 mentioned units. But hey you can't really expect everyone to have those readily available so this point is half moot.

Perhaps the question then is: which build is more optimal for tackling with upcoming content (events, quests etc)? This is kinda considering that regalia farming for 4 copies of the relic weapons to MLB is quite a huge pain in the butt, unless there was some method of optimisation?

Bear

04-01-2018, 01:34 AM

Perhaps the question then is: which build is more optimal for tackling with upcoming content (events, quests etc)? This is kinda considering that regalia farming for 4 copies of the relic weapons to MLB is quite a huge pain in the butt, unless there was some method of optimisation?

For Light, I prefer Herc first for more nuking and tanking. More high nuke dmg = better gauge control.

Slashley

04-01-2018, 01:51 AM

-- Just FYI Herc Weapon debuff is 25% and --Oh, oh, I said last time it'd be my final question but... one more!

What IS the Affliction rate of the Hercules weapons? Since Wrath Bow has MISERABLE hit rate, like 80% or less. And since it's not even being cast, during Union events it's still not 100%... :neutral:

Bear

04-01-2018, 01:58 AM

Oh, oh, I said last time it'd be my final question but... one more!

What IS the Affliction rate of the Hercules weapons?

Extremely high. Still doesn't work on WinRag or Dysnomia and the likes but otherwise rarely ever misses.

QXZ

04-01-2018, 07:05 AM

@Bear,

how does no heal work in DMM meta? i get it works in low level content but in long fights, especially multi stage fights, how do ppl sustain the dmg?

sanahtlig

04-01-2018, 10:50 AM

I have zero interest in you or your personal beef with whatever. But you can be sure that you will attract my attention if you speak of any misinformed insight and theory-crafting, genuine or not.
Attacking people you disagree with--even when you're "right"--is not the way to build a healthy community, unless your goal is to become the sole source of information and spend your time personally answering everyone's questions. It just discourages people from contributing.

For example, I could've told QXZ that his guides are ignorant and filled with errors, and it's not a new player's place to try and write about content he clearly doesn't understand. But I didn't. Because I *want* him to participate. I want him to make mistakes and improve, and hopefully tell me things I don't know. So instead of harshly calling him out, I pointed out a few key areas that caught my eye as misleading or that I disagreed with, and left it at that. There's still much I don't agree with. But it's not my guide, it's his, and I'm not going to insist on my viewpoints just because I think I'm right.

artista

04-01-2018, 11:21 AM

Where did he attack you? Holly molly, stop the drama.. The other guy is only explaining stuff and you are trying to push it into a discussion in a smooth way.

Unregistered

04-01-2018, 11:24 AM

Bleep

04-01-2018, 11:26 AM

Where did he attack you? Holly molly, stop the drama.. The other guy is only explaining stuff and you are trying to push it into a discussion in a smooth way.

The victim card, right?
It's a habit of his when his arguments fail.

QXZ

04-01-2018, 11:46 AM

guys can we plz stay on topic. make ur comments related to Light Team strategies. if you have a better build, plz share it and stick to the game plz.

Tanaka5

04-01-2018, 11:46 AM

Attacking people you disagree with--even when you're "right"--is not the way to build a healthy community, unless your goal is to become the sole source of information and spend your time personally answering everyone's questions. It just discourages people from contributing.

For example, I could've told QXZ that his guides are ignorant and filled with errors, and it's not a new player's place to try and write about content he clearly doesn't understand. But I didn't. Because I *want* him to participate. I want him to make mistakes and improve, and hopefully tell me things I don't know. So instead of harshly calling him out, I pointed out a few key areas that caught my eye as misleading or that I disagreed with, and left it at that. There's still much I don't agree with. But it's not my guide, it's his, and I'm not going to insist on my viewpoints just because I think I'm right.

You're overreacting here. And that's an understatement.

First he never attacked you. He corrected you in a normal manner. There is no malice or foul language or even an extreme tone to suggest any such thing that you can call "attacking".

If you can't accept your mistakes and move on, you're just going to degrade yourself. Bear responded because as he said he is a light main and gave reasoned and structured input by investing time in it. QXZ, Cobble and the rest are still staying relevant to the discussion and asking questions regarding future content out of curiosity to learn from someone who experienced it first hand without prior information unlike us.

Even after Bear said that he has no interest in any beef with you or anyone else and he is just here to correct some misinformation he came across, you went paranoid about this whole thing. You can't talk of raising a healthy community while becoming the source of drama yourself right?

You asked Bear a question regarding Hercules vs Shingen and he took out his time and put effort into explaining why both are viable and you can use any based on your preference or nature of content but you casually ignored that after you yourself asked the question. Only to do what? Make a huge fuss and ruin the discussion which to me seemed civil?

Again I reiterate. Everyone including QXZ and the rest have asked questions or even shared their own views but I haven't seen anyone react badly or take anything in a wrong way and it was a constructive discussion until you focused on something which was never there to begin with.

I am disappointed because I was grateful to you for your help and guide when I was rerolling for a new account. Hoping this doesn't happen again else I don't see any good knowledgeable DMM veteran who has witnessed everything first hand coming here to advise us and surely with things like Tower and GO coming, misinformation won't just hurt those who read it but others it spreads to.

Peace out.

Unregistered

04-01-2018, 12:13 PM

You're overreacting here. And that's an understatement.

First he never attacked you. He corrected you in a normal manner. There is no malice or foul language or even an extreme tone to suggest any such thing that you can call "attacking".

If you can't accept your mistakes and move on, you're just going to degrade yourself. Bear responded because as he said he is a light main and gave reasoned and structured input by investing time in it. QXZ, Cobble and the rest are still staying relevant to the discussion and asking questions regarding future content out of curiosity to learn from someone who experienced it first hand without prior information unlike us.

Even after Bear said that he has no interest in any beef with you or anyone else and he is just here to correct some misinformation he came across, you went paranoid about this whole thing. You can't talk of raising a healthy community while becoming the source of drama yourself right?

You asked Bear a question regarding Hercules vs Shingen and he took out his time and put effort into explaining why both are viable and you can use any based on your preference or nature of content but you casually ignored that after you yourself asked the question. Only to do what? Make a huge fuss and ruin the discussion which to me seemed civil?

Again I reiterate. Everyone including QXZ and the rest have asked questions or even shared their own views but I haven't seen anyone react badly or take anything in a wrong way and it was a constructive discussion until you focused on something which was never there to begin with.

I am disappointed because I was grateful to you for your help and guide when I was rerolling for a new account. Hoping this doesn't happen again else I don't see any good knowledgeable DMM veteran who has witnessed everything first hand coming here to advise us and surely with things like Tower and GO coming, misinformation won't just hurt those who read it but others it spreads to.

Peace out.
You smart, you loyal.
Wisdom

Delete

04-01-2018, 12:17 PM

Please, everyone, stop the Drama. That has been a really interesting theme until now.

Sora

04-01-2018, 12:18 PM

You smart, you loyal.
Wisdom

Why?:sweat:

Unregistered

04-01-2018, 01:03 PM

Please, everyone, stop the Drama. That has been a really interesting theme until now.

Only one person is overreacting and making drama tbh, also missinforming

Laventale

04-01-2018, 02:40 PM

blubbergott

04-01-2018, 02:45 PM

@Bear: Is Shingen's defender a viable option at all? I assume you lose too much sustained damage and having to save up Michael's Burst gauge up for after PF probably makes you rather inflexible. Is this different for other elements? Wind would f.e. be something i could see it work somewhat with Titania's short CD on the burst gauge up.

Unregistered

04-01-2018, 03:00 PM

Bear:
What kind of Atk values are players 'expected' to have to handle things like GO and AQ5? Assuming elemental advantage and reasonable skill levels to have given the amount of time we have. I'm sitting at about 30-35k for each member of my teams, so I'm curious at how much more work I should roughly expect. I also expect to mainly have SRs to work with, so that would push the requirements higher. And for GO, I guess I'm aiming to get at least 1 and hopefully 2 orichalcum every 2 weeks. Thanks!

Bear

04-01-2018, 06:16 PM

how does no heal work in DMM meta? i get it works in low level content but in long fights, especially multi stage fights, how do ppl sustain the dmg?

Mmm, just to be clear meta != no heal

At least, in my own definition 'meta' means competitive in the most updated environment. Yes in quite a few cases a full frontal dps set up can help you end a fight, steal mvp or squeeze into higher rankings, but in a scenario with mechanics where even those space whales beyond our dimension can get screwed over, there's nothing wrong with bringing a healer/cleanser/tank or two to extend your dps cycle. Your dream team can only be as meta as your grid allows after all. So please, if you ever find yourself chewing on more than you can swallow, please do yourself a favor and bring more recovery and/or mitigation.

Anyway back on your question, what do we do in multi-stage contents? It's quite simple actually. Emote for a free potion L in Rag raids. GO otoh simply drops exactly 2 small and 2 large potions across the Wave 1 (S), 2 (L), 3 (S) and 4 (L). If you're still struggling though, please bring a healer or tank. In AQ5, potion drops are random so if you find yourself struggling please (again) bring a healer or tank. As for Tower, this hell hole is not for discussion. First 10 floors are ezpz. But 11F and beyond, please double check your team and your grid and carefully judge whether you are up for it. Do not try to be the (dead) hero.

Is Shingen's defender a viable option at all? I assume you lose too much sustained damage and having to save up Michael's Burst gauge up for after PF probably makes you rather inflexible. Is this different for other elements? Wind would f.e. be something i could see it work somewhat with Titania's short CD on the burst gauge up.

I don't like the hp bow myself because just as you already answered yourself, I lose out too much on sustained damage on everything that isn't PF burst. However, I do acknowledge its merit in BT MVP stealing. Basically the idea is you sacrifice a significant % of your basic damage for a one time big number MVP steal. It's totally up to you whether you want to try it.

Bear:
What kind of Atk values are players 'expected' to have to handle things like GO and AQ5? Assuming elemental advantage and reasonable skill levels to have given the amount of time we have. I'm sitting at about 30-35k for each member of my teams, so I'm curious at how much more work I should roughly expect. I also expect to mainly have SRs to work with, so that would push the requirements higher. And for GO, I guess I'm aiming to get at least 1 and hopefully 2 orichalcum every 2 weeks. Thanks!

Hmm. 30~35k SR team is a cutting it a bit too close imo. The SR runs videos I did all have 43~45k attack and I find the pace for those just a little above comfort zone, so I would recommend 40~43k average attack on top of having at least 9~10k in battle hp for your hime to be able to clear GO missions and AQ5 at a reasonable speed. These are chores that you will be grinding almost every single day so you don't want to struggle with them every time, it just kills motivation.

i.e. casually and poorly assembled set up I did:
9680

youtu.be/Lx6AEVyBpxE
Plenty of mistakes here and there. Failed the all member alive mission too. But overall not too terrible as long as you know what you're doing.

MagicSpice

04-02-2018, 02:00 PM

wow, i actually missed quite a lot since i was last here... but the stuff said about tower kinda does bring up the point of using what you have. looks like i'll have to go back and max break my R girls cause majority is lv30 or lv40 cap cause i just got the scenes and nothing more....

but since I am planning on maining a light team, now i'm wondering what i do have to look forward to considering I have the following according to Nutaku versions' current content:

Souls- all except masa, herc, and shingen (nearly has enough points for herc)

Eidolons- Hecatonchires (no break), pheonix, sphinx, st. nickolas (the others are all 1 star)

Weapons- Lv50 ray gun solnight (Lv9 assault++), Lv50 winged staff raviel (Lv8 defender++), Moonlight Bow (Lv10 assault, Lv10 defender++), Lv125 Abu Ru Haul (Lv20 assault+, Lv20 defender), Lv125 Saint Nickolai (Lv20 defender+, Lv20 assault), Lv75 Light Staff of Guilty Pride (Lv10 Pride++)

Kamihime- Urania (R), Orpheus (R), Dike (R), Inanna (R), Beach Nergal (R), Aurora (R), Light Perun (R), Artemis (SR), Belobog (SR), Uranus (SR), Beach Brynhildr (SR), Baldr (SR), Diana (SR), Uzume (SR), Anteros (SR), Sol, Raphael, Light Tsukiyomi

this is more for anyone that hasn't responded to this before, but if there's anything else needed mentioning by those that have responded, then that's fine too.

also, I know I need more assault weapons, i'm working on grinding the SR light assault weapon.... if it ever wants to drop....

QXZ

04-02-2018, 07:24 PM

"i.e. casually and poorly assembled set up I did:" - has 40k ATK on SR hime o.O"

can you show us ur wpn grid?

Bear

04-02-2018, 09:08 PM

"i.e. casually and poorly assembled set up I did:" - has 40k ATK on SR hime o.O"

can you show us ur wpn grid?

9700

Heracles Axe - Lv86 & SL4
Trivia Bow - SL20
Apoc Lance x 2 - FLB & SL30
Union Axe #1 & #2 - FLB & SL30
Union Axe #3 - FLB & SL20
Union Hammer - FLB & SL30
Berith Gun - 0LB & SL20
Himeless Bow - 0LB & SL17

QXZ

04-02-2018, 09:16 PM

thats a pretty stacked setup for a Light player lol.

but ya... i will probably be putting together a Dark team as my 2nd starting with the next miracle ticket.

Bear

04-02-2018, 09:21 PM

I just played for a very long time that's all.

My dark grid (and everything else not Light) is mainly event weapons with 1 or 2 0~1LB gacha hime weapons and hardly any + on them. Almost all my + and $ resources went to my Light grid.

i'm wondering what i do have to look forward to

Check my earliest post in this thread (That particular long winded one) in case you haven't already done so. The soonest Light event you can look forward to is Barong raid. That event gives you a very nice Atk L gun. As for Barong herself, while her stats are indeed terrible, she's still better than Houou. And since it's a raid event, you can prolly farm for an extra set of guns. Just be mindful that the raid event itself is among one of the more annoying ones so farming tickets will be quite painful. The next thing you can look forward to is the Walkure Romanze Collabo spear. It's another Atk M / Hp S just like Sphinx Hammer.

BlazeAlter

04-02-2018, 09:37 PM

9700

Heracles Axe - Lv86 & SL4
Trivia Bow - SL20
Apoc Lance x 2 - FLB & SL30
Union Axe #1 & #2 - FLB & SL30
Union Axe #3 - FLB & SL20
Union Hammer - FLB & SL30
Berith Gun - 0LB & SL20
Himeless Bow - 0LB & SL17

so its okay to equip multiple pride weapons?
does their effect stack too?

Laventale

04-02-2018, 09:44 PM

so its okay to equip multiple pride weapons?
does their effect stack too?

It's just a guess, but if Attacker and HP weapons do stack, I don't see why Greed weapons don't.

Bear

04-02-2018, 09:50 PM

> Multiple Pride

Not exactly. Two reasons - A) You have to examine whether your team can make the best use of Pride by being able to stay at half health or less for extended duration without dying. It works for my dark team because I have sufficient amount of hp and a tank to mitigate damage. It doesn't quite work for my earlier light team though because their health is almost always full. For yours it may or may not be the same case. B) I'm stacking those Axes because they are FLB. At SL30, Pride M & L gives 15% assault, which is higher than SL20 Atk M's 13% assault. And FLB unlocks a second weapon skill for them, for these axes' case, they get Hp M.

BlazeAlter

04-02-2018, 10:44 PM

Stormlash

04-07-2018, 12:44 PM

Bear, would you mind posting your light weapon grid? I'm quite curious to see what are you running, and how are you balancing assault vs pride. Thanks in advance!

QXZ

04-07-2018, 03:37 PM

Ya, what stormlash says. Also, if u can have a perfect grid, what would u use?

Bear

04-08-2018, 12:12 AM

Bear, would you mind posting your light weapon grid? I'm quite curious to see what are you running, and how are you balancing assault vs pride. Thanks in advance!

Ya, what stormlash says. Also, if u can have a perfect grid, what would u use?

Here:

https://i.imgur.com/LRPaDF8.jpg

https://imgur.com/UiIYc7w.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wNcY8vO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MumhqUW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jPcYv4b.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JOMmQkV.jpg

I'm not all that keen in 'perfect' grid, but I'd look to have enough defender to give me around 15k hp + 3~4 exceed to hit 2nd burst dmg cap + as much assault as possible + remaining spare weapon skill slots filled with TA or Crit

Stormlash

04-08-2018, 03:32 AM

That's one pretty sweet light grid, wish I had more +1's drop for me.

So far, mine looks like this :
9768

Going to replace the SRs with the upcoming Barong gun/Exceed axe and hope that one day I'll FLB that Longinus.
Thanks again for posting, I'll use yours as a reference!

QXZ

04-08-2018, 06:58 AM

wow.... so i guess those gacha hime release SSR's are among the best in late game? are they L150? and do they get special burst effect?

Unregistered

04-08-2018, 12:01 PM

All SSR kamihime weapons gain a burst effect with FLB.

Bear:
So the new liberation/master points/inheritance/etc. stuff added for souls is pretty recent, so I doubt that there is consensus on what to aim for just yet. But for the time being, what stands out to you? What kind of stuff will you play around with first?

AznSamsung

04-08-2018, 01:21 PM

Hey bear ... do u mind ether pm me or start a thread for both fire and water plz .... i have some question to ask

QXZ

04-08-2018, 04:50 PM

@bear, can you give screenshot of your light eido grid as well?

Thanks!

Unregistered

04-08-2018, 05:19 PM

You can see it in his videos : Main Thunderbird, God Kaiser Goon, Sphinx, Hecaton, Nandi & Yule Goat.

Yolodesu

04-08-2018, 05:39 PM

Hecaton

Precise that it's only a 4/5 Hecatonchires.

Bear... This is so disappointing that i am disappointed.

Bear

04-09-2018, 01:23 PM

wow.... so i guess those gacha hime release SSR's are among the best in late game? are they L150? and do they get special burst effect?

No not necessary. Main reason why I'm using those atk/hp release weapons is to bump up my hp. I just happen to keep them around for my light grid because I got dupes of them. If you look at my other grids, you'd notice those few release weapons are only 0 or 1LB at best. In fact, before the dark union axe got its Hp M with FLB, I was using 0LB Nephthys Hammer and Thanatos Gun for my dark grid.

Bear:
So the new liberation/master points/inheritance/etc. stuff added for souls is pretty recent, so I doubt that there is consensus on what to aim for just yet. But for the time being, what stands out to you? What kind of stuff will you play around with first?

There is actually already a consensus on what the hero needs before this master point thing was even announced. Just think about it, what is the most important job of the leading unit? Generate burst before all others do. Nobody likes to wait for the hero for FB. Naturally, that means DATA are always to be maxed (It only costs 3 points per stat anyway). The rest are just preferences. Do you want your hero to deal more dmg or have more survivability? I like offensive stats myself, but I'm not going to tell everyone that they should feel the same.

Hey bear ... do u mind ether pm me or start a thread for both fire and water plz .... i have some question to ask

Just pm me if you want.

Unregistered

09-06-2018, 05:32 AM

Thank you for the information. I am just about to start working on my light element. can u please confirm if the information above still relevant / up to date?

Bear

09-06-2018, 06:02 AM

Nope. It's outdated.

Unregistered

09-06-2018, 06:30 AM

Nope. It's outdated.

Thanks for confirming, what has changed? I am mainly looking for the best SSR team comp. thanks

Unregistered

09-06-2018, 07:32 AM

Thanks for confirming, what has changed? I am mainly looking for the best SSR team comp. thanks

...
Dosen't exist...
For different contents you use different set-ups.
In the past months two awesome light KHs were released Lugh and Iris.

To be honest you can build now different strong light Teams.
Only Michael AW will never leave her main spot for fast burst builds.

Shingen+Michael AW+Iris+Lugh/SArty+Take/Trish/Sol AW
you can also build a team just for AAB (but you won't AAB every content)

Unregistered

09-07-2018, 02:46 AM

...
Dosen't exist...
For different contents you use different set-ups.
In the past months two awesome light KHs were released Lugh and Iris.

To be honest you can build now different strong light Teams.
Only Michael AW will never leave her main spot for fast burst builds.

Shingen+Michael AW+Iris+Lugh/SArty+Take/Trish/Sol AW
you can also build a team just for AAB (but you won't AAB every content)

Thanks. What is a good build before getting Michael AW?

Unregistered

09-07-2018, 05:53 AM

Thanks. What is a good build before getting Michael AW?

I think Herc, Artemis, Sol, Michael, Tsukyomi

QXZ

09-08-2018, 08:49 PM

Cobblemaniac

09-08-2018, 09:28 PM

I think Herc, Artemis, Sol, Michael, Tsukyomi

once Michael gets her AW, shes definitely a must-have for bursting line up.

but with the current pool of SSR himes, i would put Eros before Michael. her ATK debuff is still very valid for auto battles and lazy ppl.

I wouldn't count Frey out either. A rage punish that lasts for a turn does wonders in killing rage gauge for light to bypass damage checks till the DPS era.

QXZ

09-09-2018, 06:04 PM

I wouldn't count Frey out either. A rage punish that lasts for a turn does wonders in killing rage gauge for light to bypass damage checks till the DPS era.

my grudge with Freyr is not all fights have rage meters, that makes her situationaly useful. also slightly less useful in auto battles as you have to time the skill

QXZ

10-02-2018, 07:35 PM

updated main post for Raphael Awakening

Unregistered

10-05-2018, 03:38 AM

Wow that thread is really old and not up-to-date.

Slashley

10-05-2018, 04:03 AM

Wow that thread is really old and not up-to-date.Wow that post is really new and not useful.

If you have beef with it, you should come out and say what the beef is.

QXZ

11-03-2018, 09:59 AM

updated for meta information.

QXZ

12-24-2018, 07:17 PM

another update for meta and formatting

MagicSpice

12-24-2018, 07:32 PM

Just curious about this, but how much value is this light comp? Can also look at this for SR/R required missions/content, and for dark tower WAY later down the line.

-access to all souls, but only has herc weapon

-SSR kami are Sol, Tsukiyomi, SSR Artemis, Raphael, Michael, Vishnu, Atum, Frey, Shamash, Metatron

-SR kami are Artemis, Belobog, Uranus, Light Brynhildr, Baldr, Diana, Uzume, Demeter, Anteros, Djehuti, Attar, Sati

-R kami are Urania, Dike, Inanna, Orpheus, Light Nergal, Light Perun, Aurora, Daphne, Kamadeva, Light Caspiel, Aten, Dis

-Has a 1 star God Kaiser, but best eidolon for main effect is event ones

I'm making this ignore other weapons cause those are expendable (especially to future FLB ones). Just mentioning that one.

Crow

06-22-2019, 06:35 AM

So, with Lugh out there is only Iris in the future mentioned in OP. But we are in the June meta, as described here now.

AutoCrimson

06-23-2019, 07:05 AM

is Yoda master your father?

dreamlitz

06-25-2019, 05:09 PM

So, with Lugh out there is only Iris in the future mentioned in OP. But we are in the June meta, as described here now.

Randomly decided to peruse through the forum and read all the spoilers in the main post. I noticed a number of things that seem outdated or just plain don't jive with my experience. Would be curious what other light users think of the following changes to the main post:

In the offensive hime section:

Needs to mention Metatron. With her awakening, she is very strong, especially against debuff resistant stuff. She is no longer just a burst chain repairer sub.
Frey is worth mentioning. I wouldn't mtix her, but if you happen to draw her, she is very powerful when bursting against a raging enemy.

In the defensive hime section:

Light Athena is worth mentioning. She is the only light SSR to have team-wide dmg cut. She gets a rework later iirc where she starts the battle with fortitude so she won't die so easily.
Shamash is also worth mentioning imo though she is easily outclassed by more offensive builds.
Eros gets an awakening at some point, though I think that's really far out. She becomes very good with her AW though - her affliction block turns into affliction absorption that gives 20 burst. On burst, Eros can cast affliction block again, so she works really well in super fast light teams like Mike AW and Lugh.

In the eidolon section:

Thunderbird deserves a mention. MLB thunderbird is 60% elemental and her active is also a DA boost, so she's very similar to fluffy. If like me, you didn't roll into fluffy, you probably have a higher chance of getting LB3 or MLB Thunderbird before you get fluffy if ever.

In the popular builds section:

I think build is a bad way to look at light, especially if you have more than 4 light SSRs. I think it's more useful to take a modular approach with Tish and Mike AW as the core and you attach on whatever is most needed for an encounter:

Mike AW speeds up the whole team. Tish's TA buff indirectly speeds up the whole team by speeding up the bottleneck hime (often the soul if you have the fast light himes). Just those two alone already turns your team into a burst machine that can consistently burst every 4 to 5 turns, faster if you have the right himes and souls. Tish also covers frame B debuffs and single target heal.

Almost every light SSR hime is built specifically for a purpose and serves that purpose very very well. Now I know not everyone has every SSR under the sun and for GO and stuff you can't always just use SSR anyway, so I will mention SR and R substitutes where I am aware of one:

Utility himes:

When you need AoE heal or cleanse or removing annoying buffs - bring Sol (SR Attar is the closest substitute - needs to be lvl 65+ for cleanse; R Luchtaine can also cleanse but no heal)
When you are dealing with debuffs that Sol can't deal with (e.g. paralyze or ability seal) - bring Eros (no SR substitutes, closest is SR Amon)
When you just need to stall - bring Raphael (AW) - awakened version has 4 abilities all geared towards stalling: dizzy, orb eat, BP, mode gauge reduction and atk down thrown in there as well - puts Mordred to shame really (SR Forseti also has atk down and BP, but can't even begin to compare to Raphael.) Important note about Raphael AW and Forseti's BP - they have really long CD, so if you need it up continuously, you might still be better off Ex-ing Mordred's BP.
When stalling won't do and you need to tank dmg - Shamash or Light Athena (SR Light Hermes, SR Attar, R Daphne and R Kubera are the best substitutes I can think of)

If you're missing a necessary light hime for a certain encounter, fill it with your soul. Once you've picked the utility hime you need (if any), fill the rest with offensive himes/soul/Ex abilities:

Debuff himes:

Frame C debuff and insane nuker and burster - Lugh (no SR equivalent, though R Lunar Glory Caspiel is also frame C and a stacking frame.) Important note about Lugh - she needs a healer to bring out her power, Tish is the natural choice since she's core to the light burst machine.
Frame A debuff - SSR Arty (SR Diana is also frame A, or R Dike if you are very desperate)
Elemental frame debuff - Iris (when she comes out) or LT (SR Sati is a good alternative and is also a dark killer like LT)
Frame B debuff (if you're not bring Tish for some reason) - SR Light Amaterasu, she's limited though, and it's only 10%, so, not worth it in most cases

Fast himes:

Metatron (AW) - doesn't get faster than instant, though if you account for her CD, she is not the fastest hime on average for a prolonged battle
Lugh - hands down the most consistently fast light hime
Vishnu - was the most consistently fast light hime before Lugh came along, though she's very tricky to use, especially if you don't have Shamash.
Takeminakata - insane DPS with her guaranteed TA, but also tricky to use
SR Anteros - mini Metatron
SR Durga - fast but randomness and her rampaging ability can mess you up
R Daphne - guaranteed DATA, but can be exposed with taunt if you don't pair her with Kubera

DPS himes:

Lugh - nukes every turn with stacking atk buff, then nukes twice as hard after bursting. Oh, and she also bursts again and again, too.
Takeminakata - tricky but very powerful nuker and guaranteed TA and echo burst with flat dmg. Pretty insane if you use Morgan with a berserk build. She also gets 2 turn 100% dmg cut with her self-heal if you spend the sword.
Iris (future) - my understanding is that if her rainbow sword procs, it's some insane dmg.

Special situations:

Rage punisher - Frey
High def bosses (e.g. Icarus GO) - Takeminakata - save her swords for burst

Sidenote: every once in a while, I see posts questioning the value of Tish. My guess is that these people have not experimented enough or pay enough attention to overall dmg (not just how much you burst for.) Tish enhances the team dmg a lot by making your team burst faster. She can keep TA buff on 2 members of team 5/6 of time and thus consistently speed up your burst by at least 1 or 2 turns. For full burst, each hime deals around 7.5x dmg even without PF, versus 3x if you get off a TA. Consistently bursting 1 turn faster means Tish is indirectly contributing at least (7.5x-3x)*5 himes = 22.5x dmg with JUST her TA buff every time you burst. That's a lot more dmg than even someone like Metatron AW. Don't forget Tish can debuff and heal, too...

If your team is so fast that Tish is actually the bottleneck (not sure if that's possible, since Lugh can't be fast without a healer, and bringing Sol or Atum will slow things down again) or if for some reason bursting whenever you can will mess up the timing of a specific GO mechanic for example, then and only then I think should you consider dropping Tish from your team. Although in that situation, I usually drop Mike before I drop Tish.

Typical mtix pick imo should be: Mike > Tish > Lugh

Sidenote 2 about Sol: she is still good but just given how insane an offensive light build can be, she should not a priority anymore. As I have noted, there are other himes/souls that can heal or cleanse when you really need it for an encounter, Sol just does it better but that alone isn't enough to elevate her above Mike/Tish/Lugh imo.

For the weapons section:

I believe the meta for light phantom grid is lance using Shingen lance, Mike lance, Tish lance, Lugh lance and the draconic eye shop lance. Shingen, Tish and Lugh are all lance users and will get extra boost from the lances. That requires some serious whaling power or pink brick power though.

The easiest phantom grid to achieve for light imo is actually a gun grid - Sol gun, SSR Arty gun, Barong gun, Nandi gun, Helishev gun (light advent next year) - for any guns you're missing, just get more Barong guns from the ori shop. This isn't the strongest grid by any means and only SSR Arty is a gun user, but is at least achievable for most people within a reasonable time frame (phantom lance grid needs up to 12 pink bricks, that's like 2 years time for normal ppl, getting MLB Barong gun is 4 months each, so even if you have zero guns, it'll be faster than getting lance grid.)

You can also get phantom sword grid using Frey's sword, Take's sword and fill the rest with St. Nick's sword from ori shop. Frey, Take and importantly Mike are all sword users. Again, not a super strong grid, since St. Nick's sword is only small assault, but it is achievable for normal people within a reasonable time frame.

Feedback welcome. I'm always looking for ideas to improve my team without breaking the bank.

Unregistered

06-25-2019, 06:22 PM

Seeing ppl look down on Sol it kinda trigger me, try to bring a team with both Lugh and Tish in rag without any andro support user and see how long you can survive. Running Andro ?, you sacrifide Shingen dmg and slow down your whole just to kick Sol out ?, yes Sol is also slow, but she is a hime, not a soul, soul had to lead burst, that’s why Shin and Herc are so popular.If you place Sol on last slot she only need 60BG(40BG if you have Mike in front her) to participate in a FB. With BG skill from Shin and Mike, she have no problem to join 3t-4t FB cycle
P/S: 1.Since when Mike is a sword user ?
2.Lugh can only nuke twice in the first turn, it have 6T cd, her skill 3 reset her nuke.

dreamlitz

06-25-2019, 09:17 PM

Just to be clear, I think Sol is very good and I use her regularly for things like GO. It was not my intention to look down on her. I put her in the same bucket as Eros, who I also think is very...

Dejnov

06-25-2019, 10:07 PM

Three minor points:

You want to do your Hime damage capability over a longer duration calculation (like 10 or 12 rounds). That will give you a better read on Trish and Michael's full damage capabilities. I do believe that you are right, Tish is actually a higher damage output contributor for low DATA teams than Michael, but doing the math will help others understand.

Hammer grids are the easiest base grids for light to do. The assault SR is a hammer, Nandi Hammer and the phantom weapon is 30% assault. It's a noticeable improvement over a non-phantom grid and is cheap to upgrade or switch out of at a later date.

I've been told that Bricking Lugh's lance is a bad choice. The best choices are Michael's and Trish's instead. Multiples are preferred. Eye Lance is passable if you can't get multiple copies of Michael's or Trish's, but brick this last (in the hopes of dupes).

Dejnov.

P.S. Tiara combo is the best combo hands down (priority for almost all Himes), but there are uses for the Standard combo also (350 regen , 10T) for certain (non-Sol) team set ups.

Slashley

06-26-2019, 12:41 AM

While I'm not touching the rest with a hundred feet pole due to knowing very little about Light thanks my RNG, but this bit:
--
Thunderbird deserves a mention. MLB thunderbird is 60% elemental and her active is also a DA boost, so she's very similar to fluffy. --No, no, no, nooooo.

Thunderbird lasts one (1) turn, and has basically zero impact on the Double rate of your Hime.
Fluffy lasts three (3) turns, and seems to have an EXTREME impact on the Combo rate of your Himes. Well, based on the entire... three times I've used Fluffy?

So yeah, please no. Don't even consider Thunderbird. Her on-use is awful. Passive is 'lright if you get multiple Stars on her, like every gacha Eidolon.

Tanukimo

06-26-2019, 03:51 AM

Nice in-depth write-up. It would be nice to see the main post updated with this information. Just want to add a bit more info on phantom grids. For f2p, I think the easiest null grid to do is an axe grid, since you have 3 UE exceed axes and Yule Goat's axe so you only need one other axe. For whales, a lance grid is certainly an option but other strong null grid options include a null glaive grid taking advantage of Vishnu's FLB weapon (Assault L Defender S and Vigoras S upon FLB) and the guardian glaive with Exceed L Assault M or an arcane grid with Shamash's pride/assault/defender weapon and Light Athena's weapon with Defender L Exceed S and Assault S upon FLB.
Also regarding Lugh it's only one nuke each turn, since the reset only affects her second ability and not the first.

Slashley

06-26-2019, 06:14 AM

-- Just want to add a bit more info on phantom grids. For f2p, I think the easiest null grid to do is an axe grid, since you have 3 UE exceed axes and Yule Goat's axe so you only need one other axe. --Don't bother with non-Lance/Glaive/Bow/Hammer Grids. By replacing an Assault weapon with something non-Assault like Phantom Axe, you lose about as much damage output as you gain from the base Atk. So, the upgrade is very minimal. Is it better than a non-Phantom Grid? Yes. Barely, but yes.

Is it worth your time, effort and resources? No.

dreamlitz

06-26-2019, 11:31 AM

You want to do your Hime damage capability over a longer duration calculation (like 10 or 12 rounds). That will give you a better read on Trish and Michael's full damage capabilities. I do believe that you are right, Tish is actually a higher damage output contributor for low DATA teams than Michael, but doing the math will help others understand.

Ok, I started having another go at this, but it turned into a massive wall of text. Let me try this approach instead (which is still a wall of text, but I'm trying my best...):

Let the average dmg per SSR hime per turn = [A*(n-1) + 7.5+B]/n where A is the average dmg from attack and abilities, the 7.5 is from FB (5x + 50% burst streak), n is the average number of turns it takes to burst. A varies a lot depending on DATA rate and red abilities, but I will be generous and set it at 3 (most himes are closer to 2-2.5 in my experience.) B is burst multiplier adders like PF, exceed and Mike AW's ability 2. I will set B as zero for the base case just to make things less favorable to a burst build.

When you replace a generic SSR with Mike AW, you might lower A but also lower n and raise B. I would argue that Mike lowers A by at most 1-ish (her red ability doesn't hit as hard as some other himes but have a bunch of team-wide buffs) and she lowers n by at least 2 (2 if your team has close to guaranteed DA on average, closer to 4 if your DATA rate sucks.) Now, remember, we only replace 1 hime to accomodate Mike, so reduction in A is only 1/5. Mike also raise B by 1x (less on average if you burst much more frequently than the 7T CD.)

If n before Mike is 9 (9 or 10T roughly on average if you try to get to FB without any DATA buffs or burst fill) then average dmg would be (3*8+7.5+0)/9 = 3.5x.
With Mike AW, if I reduce A by 0.2, increase B by 0.5 and decrease n by 2-4, we get between 3.54x-3.84x, which is between 4-9% more dmg.
If you repeat this with what I think are more realistic assumptions of A = 2.5, Mike A reduction of 0 (it can increase A if you time her buff with burst), it's 5-18% more dmg. If you further reduce base n by 1, it becomes 6-24% (i.e. the faster your team, the more valuable Mike becomes.)
For reference, if you own a soul weapon and have a fluffy friend and full light sub eidolons, going from using Barong to fluffy as your main eidolon gives you a 22% boost (elemental going from 170% to 230%, less if you don't have all light sub eido), so these numbers from Mike are nothing to sneeze at.

For Tish, it's a similar story. Her ability 1's dmg and CD is about average, but the debuffs on it make it on par or better than a lot of other hime's like SSR Arty or LT. Ability 2 boosts atk, crit and most importantly 50% TA, and she can keep it up on 2 himes 5/6 of the time. I will only focus on the TA part. The TA alone boosts A by 1.5 on two himes (so 1.5*2/5*5/6 = 0.5 on average.) If you cast it on the bottleneck himes, it can also easily reduce n by between 1-2.

With a Mike AW starting point of A=3, B=0.5, n=7, Tish adding 0.5 to A and reduce n by 1-2 will boost dmg by 14-18%.
Repeat with A=2.5 instead, Tish will boost dmg by 17-21%.
Remember, we still have not accounted for Tish's atk and critical boost and the fact that fast teams make Mike AW even more valuable.

Lugh is a slightly different animal, but using this framework, she basically boosts A by a lot and reduces n by about 1 or so.

Also, you can extend this framework to evaluate someone like Sol, except you need an extra variable showing how long the team can survive with or without Sol. So, it becomes like [A*(n-1) + 7.5+B]/n*E where E is endurance in turns.

Sol tends to reduce A and increase n (if you already have Tish and Mike though, it can be neutral on n, since you can just stick her in the last slot as the previous poster mentioned.) Her value is from increasing E.
If normally you die after the 1st OD at like T3 or T4, and Sol makes you survive till T6 or T8, increase in E is like 100%, and Sol will blow everyone else out of the water (and it's not just heal btw, her atk down is very nice, too.)
My personal experience with Sol usually falls in two categories once my hp got high enough though:

For easier content, up to and including advent rag, Sol increases E by so much that the battle has long ended before I use that many turns, so her value is sort of wasted.
For public raids, I get a guaranteed potion which together with Tish's heal, usually gets me to T8-10 or so, depending on which raid we're talking about. Sol usually just adds about 2-4T more, so E increases by about 20-40% or so, which is a lot, but A takes a hit, and if I have to kick someone like Mike or Tish, A and n takes such a big hit that it's at best a wash. If the raid lags (which it usually does) and you want to try to MVP it, your best bet is to go for high A low E strategy, doubly so during BT.

Btw, lest I be accused of being a Sol-hater (I am not), I am only saying Sol falls behind Mike and Tish in value as your hp gets high enough. If you don't have other heavy hitters like Take or Metatron or Lugh or something, Sol is still very very good and you should keep her on your team. She only got relegated to sub 'cos I do have Take and Metatron (but no Lugh, yet...) Oh, and perhaps paradoxically, I would argue you should mtix Sol before you mtix Metatron or Take, well, at least after you have Lugh. Sol will help keep Lugh alive, so if you're in for a long fight, Sol is most likely better than another heavy hitter 'cos Lugh hits so hard that it offsets whatever reduction in A Sol brings. Utility himes like Sol and Eros are also more useful if you intend to use light for almost all content once you have your basic DPS machine.

Hammer grids are the easiest base grids for light to do. The assault SR is a hammer, Nandi Hammer and the phantom weapon is 30% assault. It's a noticeable improvement over a non-phantom grid and is cheap to upgrade or switch out of at a later date.

Very true, forgot about that one. You can easily fill the whole grid with hammers, too, not just 5 hammers. Metatron is also a hammer user, so bonus if you have her.

I've been told that Bricking Lugh's lance is a bad choice. The best choices are Michael's and Trish's instead. Multiples are preferred. Eye Lance is passable if you can't get multiple copies of Michael's or Trish's, but brick this last (in the hopes of dupes).

Lugh's lance FLB is large assault and medium elaborate, not terrible, large assault is always nice... But yeah Tish's (assault, exceed, ascension), and Mike's (assault, defender) are much better. So I'm even further from the ideal light grid than I thought...

P.S. Tiara combo is the best combo hands down (priority for almost all Himes), but there are uses for the Standard combo also (350 regen , 10T) for certain (non-Sol) team set ups.

That's an excellent idea. I think I will stick that on Lugh when I mtix her, since it should become 700 regen on her if I understand her assist correctly.

Thunderbird lasts one (1) turn, and has basically zero impact on the Double rate of your Hime.
Fluffy lasts three (3) turns, and seems to have an EXTREME impact on the Combo rate of your Himes. Well, based on the entire... three times I've used Fluffy?

You are right... I can't believe I didn't notice this before given that I have quite a few Thunderbird friends and use them regularly... I always thought I'm getting through trash mobs slower with Thunderbird 'cos of the lower elemental, but it's probably that and lower DATA... My bad.

Also regarding Lugh it's only one nuke each turn, since the reset only affects her second ability and not the first.

Sooo, I see Lugh using ability 2 TWICE in a single turn here around the 3:00 mark (https://youtu.be/uAjly1Jx1oY) and get 60 burst from just that (she needs to have bursted already for it to reach that ridiculous level, otherwise it's just 20/use at lvl 75+.) Unless taco one is nerfed... But if my eyes are not deceiving me, tell me how that is not OP and blows every other light himes out of the water for raw DPS. Combine it with Dejnov's regen accessories bonus idea, she's not as frail as people think either.

Don't bother with non-Lance/Glaive/Bow/Hammer Grids. By replacing an Assault weapon with something non-Assault like Phantom Axe, you lose about as much damage output as you gain from the base Atk. So, the upgrade is very minimal. Is it better than a non-Phantom Grid? Yes. Barely, but yes.

Is it worth your time, effort and resources? No.

It depends on a lot of factors, like how many red abilities you have and what your DATA rate is like, but the last time I ran some back-of-the-envelope numbers, I think at around 150%-ish assault and consistently bursting every 4 turns or so, exceed is almost as good as assault. Elaborate still suck though, so if you have a choice, listen to Slashley and don't choose axe (or my gun and sword grid ideas - I consider those sort of free since you'll have excess ori when you're consistently getting all 5 ori every cycle.) If you missed the old light UEs like me, axe grid isn't really an option anyway.

Unregistered

06-26-2019, 12:21 PM

Lugh can only do double skill 2 nuke once and had to wait 6T to do that again if you like to do it, normal ppl just spam skill 3 and nuke once. That vid is tower tho so it’s reasonable for Bear to save that double nuke on boss. Yes a agree you can run Tish and Mike no problem without Sol, but when Lugh come, it’s a whole different story. The enemy is not a punching bag, they fight back, I doubt Tish and Lugh can last more than 10T in a rag, Lugh burst 15% of her heath every turn to dish out dps and stay fast, Tish burn 10% of her health every 3T to use buff, and if she want to keep Lugh stay alive a little bit longer, she had to burn 20% of her health for the heal. Sol is need to keep those 2 stay safe in an extreme environment like rags.

dreamlitz

06-26-2019, 12:29 PM

Sol is need to keep those 2 stay safe in an extreme environment like rags.

Um, which is why I say mtix Sol after Lugh? I feel like we disagree less than we think... If you're saying Lugh isn't great without Sol in situations where it matters, so you should get Sol before Lugh for the versatility, I can buy that.

Unregistered

06-26-2019, 12:49 PM

I just trigger when someone say Sol is irrelevent in future Light *meta* team, the power of Sol scale with ascension which thankfully light have a lot, UE staff, Sol gun, Tish spear, some random advent and raid weap that i don’t care about, etc

Unregistered

06-26-2019, 03:34 PM

Bear

06-26-2019, 07:14 PM

you still need heal outside of Drag?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/510354554446151680.png?v=1

I'm not usually a Sol advocate, but if you are seriously saying that you don't need heal outside of DCat....
That's just pure arrogance + ignorance

I would like to see you last longer than 15T against Och while MVPing without any form of healing of your own.

KTA

06-26-2019, 08:37 PM

You guys realize that you can use Lugh Abi2 twice if you reset it the turn before and then hold onto it into the next turn, right? In fact, this is the behavior you should subscribe to by default, esp. when Lugh is about to burst because you'll be able to get 3 hits off with her burst effect instead of 2. There's no reason to use it immediately because you'll never hold onto your reset for 6T to let it come off cooldown naturally.

And Managarmr buff lasts 2T, not 3.

Dejnov

06-27-2019, 12:09 AM

Ok, I started having another go at this, but it turned into a massive wall of text. Let me try this approach instead (which is still a wall of text, but I'm trying my best...):

Let the average dmg per SSR hime per turn = [A*(n-1) + 7.5+B]/n where A is the average dmg from attack and abilities, the 7.5 is from FB (5x + 50% burst streak), n is the average number of turns it takes to burst. A varies a lot depending on DATA rate and red abilities, but I will be generous and set it at 3 (most himes are closer to 2-2.5 in my experience.) B is burst multiplier adders like PF, exceed and Mike AW's ability 2. I will set B as zero for the base case just to make things less favorable to a burst build.

It depends on a lot of factors, like how many red abilities you have and what your DATA rate is like, but the last time I ran some back-of-the-envelope numbers, I think at around 150%-ish assault and consistently bursting every 4 turns or so, exceed is almost as good as assault. Elaborate still suck though, so if you have a choice, listen to Slashley and don't choose axe (or my gun and sword grid ideas - I consider those sort of free since you'll have excess ori when you're consistently getting all 5 ori every cycle.) If you missed the old light UEs like me, axe grid isn't really an option anyway.

So dreamlitz, I apologize for not responding earlier and only with my brief note as I was traveling today. Let me expound how I think you should be calculating Hime damage per turn (DPT) so that you get a more accurate read on Michael's and Trish's capabilities. It's easier to think of having the Himes do damage for a certain number of rounds and then divide the team's damage by the number of rounds used. 10 rounds is easy for decile calculations, while I typically prefer 12 rounds for max whole number divisibility so that I can intuitively understand the bonus I'm getting 'per Hime', but either is fair and provides the same utility once calculated. I'll use the 12 round system for the example below.

A typical Hime will deliver their raw assault (plus grid and eidolon modifiers which are invariant for our examples) per round with a typical SSR giving 5x damage on the round it bursts. Base Balance,Tricky Himes are around 8k attack, offense Himes are around 9k-10k and Healing and Defense Himes are around 7k. If we take the 8k assault Hime as the base our Hime set is either 1.0x, 1.2x, or 0.875x depending on if their Balanced, Offensive, or a Healing type Hime. Our base Hime team will be able to burst every 10th round (soul single attacks every round and takes 10 rounds to generate 100 burst) and so over 10 rounds will do 1.0x nine times and 5.0x once for a total attack power of 14.0x. This assumption is fairly useless though as no 'real' team needs that many rounds to actually burst and that's due to powers and abilities.

If you're using Hercules as your main soul, with minor BG help she should be able to burst every 7th round and if you're using Shingen she should burst every 5th round. A team with Hercules as main soul over 12 rounds does 16.0x damage (5.0x once and 1.0x eleven times), while the Shingen team should be able to deliver two bursts for a total of 20.0x damage (5.0x twice and 1.0x ten times). This is basically around a 25% increase in damage output for the Shingen team provided that the leader can generate 90 burst in 4 rounds. You can do this in a couple of ways (DATA, Encourage Inspiration, Burst Up power, etc.). Team rearrangement follows that path. IF you do this through DATA please note that the base first slot hime has to still do 9 attacks in 4 turns instead of in 6 turns which equates to a 1.25 upper to overall damage. That makes characters that can up or guarantee DATA much more powerful (like Tishtrya, Takeminakata) than characters that just generate free burst (Shingen and Michael). If you do generate the damage this way you can add another 1.25 (6 rounds to 4 rounds) to the base damage on non-burst rounds. The overall damage output will be 5.0x twice and 1.25 ten times for a total of 22.5x damage or an additional 12.5% damage.

Current damage outputs are currently:

16.0x for a Hercules team with burst on 7th round
20.0x for a Shingen team with burst on 5th round
22.5x for a Shingen team with burst on 5th round and mostly DATA up.

The next damage break is if you can burst on 4th round (3 rounds to generate). This gives you 3 bursts in 12 rounds and 9 base rounds for a total damage output of 24.0x over 12 rounds or another 33% increase if through DATA for a total of 27.0x damage. Note that PF can only help every other burst and if you state you're always getting full burst than the 5.0x per burst goes to 7.5x (like you stated earlier).

Two main ideas come out of this very quickly. Getting the burst down a round (all else being equal) can really up your damage (from 16.0x to 20.0x to 24.0x), if you can reliably burst that fast. Also, DATA is very very powerful since it keeps damage output to each burst constant versus just getting more 5.0x (or 7.5x) burst multipliers in a 12 round set.

So how does this fit into Light Himes in general?

There are 4 fast Light Himes currently: Tishtrya, Michael, Takeminakata, and Lugh. (Please note: I don't have Lugh and so can't comment fully on her).

Tish ups the team primarily through Triple Attack (two Himes) and adds +20 per cycle (Abi1 and Abi2) to herself for a total of +80 base burst per 3 turn cycle (2 chars at 50% TA for bonus 30 BG each and 20 BG to herself), with most of her BG also giving more attacks (i.e. 60 BG x 1.33 multiplier for TA and then 20 BG base for a total of around 100 BG/damage effective team gain). Also note she takes 3 turns to ramp up (get the second Hime to TA) so she's a bit slow at the start.

Awakened Michael adds 100BG to the team per 3 turn cycle (20BG x5 per skill and then 20BG x5 after full burst for approximately 200 BG every 6 turns), but does not add any additional DATA. So her total effective team gain is the base 100BG from her skill.

Takeminakata gets guaranteed TA for 3 rounds (and then has to wait 7 rounds with nothing). This would make her effective BG 90 x 1.33 or 120 BG/damage effective team gain, but she can only do the trick once every third burst so her effective BG is 120/3 or 40BG/damage effective gain. Not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

Lugh can up her BG 20 per round (for 15% health) or 30 per round after a full burst, but can't sustain the trick for long combats nor does she up her DATA capability. She's around Takeminakata's level of sustained BG generation; about 40BG/damage effective gain and can still sustain a burst every 4th round. Still not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

For overall team speed, Michael wins hands down. Trish helps more with a balanced damage/speed output, and both Lugh and Take are initially fast, individual burst generators that tend to lack long sustains. Michael and Tish help a team burst faster, but more importantly can help bring a slow Hime (or possibly two) onto a fast burst team. Take and Lugh are first slot Himes and are fairly interchangeable as long as you have both Michael and Tish. The third slot can take any slow Hime (like Sol, Shamash, Athena, etc.) and still maintain the 4th turn burst.

My old team (prior to Take) was Artemis, Tish, Sol, and Michael with Tish always speeding up Artemis first and Sol second. It could make a 4th turn burst 80-90% of the time (sadly no Tiara Light accessories for Art yet) and with Encourage Inspiration could guarantee every 4th turn burst (and could nearly get 3rd turn burst 90% of the time). It did lack full defense down though. With my new team of Take, Tish, Tsuki/Sol, and Michael I can definitely generate an initial 3rd turn burst and/or sustain 4th turn continuous bursts and can hit full defense down OR bring healing.

Take, Lugh, Tsuki and Sol can all be rotated depending on what you have or don't have (I still don't have Lugh aargh!!) and depending on the content you're looking to take on and how fast you truly want to go. But you truly need Michael, Tishtrya, or both create any base fast burst Light team.

Dejnov.

dreamlitz

06-27-2019, 10:46 AM

It's easier to think of having the Himes do damage for a certain number of rounds and then divide the team's damage by the number of rounds used.

Dejnov, thank you for the post! Yes, I agree that your calculation is the more intuitive way of doing it. My short-hand calculation is just that, a short-hand way of getting at the same qualitative conclusion. Apparently not too convincing though.

Base Balance,Tricky Himes are around 8k attack, offense Himes are around 9k-10k and Healing and Defense Himes are around 7k. If we take the 8k assault Hime as the base our Hime set is either 1.0x, 1.2x, or 0.875x depending on if their Balanced, Offensive, or a Healing type Hime.

Yes, my calculations implicitly assumes that everyone has the same base atk, which just isn't the case. However, when you start FLB-ing things, hime stats become a smaller and smaller portion of total atk, so those multipliers are gonna get closer together.

This assumption is fairly useless though as no 'real' team needs that many rounds to actually burst and that's due to powers and abilities.

Yes, I could have picked a better base case... I was starting from the perspective of a new player with all SR and deciding on first mtix and actually purposely trying to stack the deck against Mike and Tish just to make a point.

That makes characters that can up or guarantee DATA much more powerful (like Tishtrya, Takeminakata) than characters that just generate free burst (Shingen and Michael).

Nitpick, but both Shingen and Michael AW ups DATA for the whole team. It's not on the same level as Tish and I won't rely on it for BG unless you stack it like crazy with eido effects, accessories and tiara bonuses (just gotta figure out how to survive those death beams from light rag...)

There are 4 fast Light Himes currently: Tishtrya, Michael, Takeminakata, and Lugh. (Please note: I don't have Lugh and so can't comment fully on her).

I know people don't like Vishnu 'cos she's really hard to use, but she's fast, too, like Lugh fast, well until Lugh bursts that is... But Vishnu can actually keep herself alive. If you have no one better or don't have a healer to pair with Lugh, Vishnu still gets the job done. Also, if you're trying to MVP something and just need to burst as quickly as possible like the current raid, Metatron is your girl.

Also note she[Tish] takes 3 turns to ramp up (get the second Hime to TA) so she's a bit slow at the start.

Takeminakata gets guaranteed TA for 3 rounds (and then has to wait 7 rounds with nothing).

Do what I do - first TA buff from Tish goes on the soul, after the first burst, put it on Take. Keeps the burst speed pretty even so no one is falling significantly behind. That is why I love Tish, when you use her well, it keeps your burst machine in sync so it's rare for anyone to be waiting around for burst (unless you use Metatron, she's a different animal.)

Lugh can up her BG 20 per round (for 15% health) or 30 per round after a full burst, but can't sustain the trick for long combats nor does she up her DATA capability. She's around Takeminakata's level of sustained BG generation; about 40BG/damage effective gain and can still sustain a burst every 4th round. Still not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

Yes, but remember every time she gets her BG 20, she is also nuking for 3-3.5x, that's on top of her regular attack, so that's like much better than even Take's TA. Also, depending on whether you can spare Tish's heal on Lugh or have Sol on your team, Lugh can in theory keep it up much longer than Take. You can also 'store' Lugh's BG for 1T and do double nuke/BG the next turn, whereas Take's TA is wasted if you burst on a turn where her TA is still up (I want Lugh so badly :cry:)

Certainly not in the realm of Tish or Mike, yes, but they have different roles, and ideally you want all of them - Mike just speeds everyone up, Tish is fast and speeds up bottleneck himes, Lugh/Take/Vishnu are faster and makes it easy to accommodate a slow hime (Arty / LT / Sol / Eros / Raphy / whatever you have/need for the content you're facing.)

But you truly need Michael, Tishtrya, or both create any base fast burst Light team.

I completely agree, which is why I consider Mike and Tish to be core - they give you a very respectable baseline DPS with nice set of utility skills. Then tack on two more himes depending on what you need, and most light SSRs are very very nice.

Unregistered

06-27-2019, 11:30 AM

Dejnov

06-27-2019, 12:11 PM

Yes, my calculations implicitly assumes that everyone has the same base atk, which just isn't the case. However, when you start FLB-ing things, hime stats become a smaller and smaller portion of total atk, so those multipliers are gonna get closer together.

Good point; at enough attack you can start forgetting about what type of Himes you're fielding and focus more on what abilities they bring to the table.

Nitpick, but both Shingen and Michael AW ups DATA for the whole team. It's not on the same level as Tish and I won't rely on it for BG unless you stack it like crazy with eido effects, accessories and tiara bonuses (just gotta figure out how to survive those death beams from light rag...)

I didn't include it because the amounts, without other sources, are small absolute damage modifiers (less than 5-10%) and would muddy the analogy and equations. That said, they are absolutely important and are useful. I had a small scrap where I had written out the different DATA sources that I could possibly generate (Michael's, Thunderbird, Shingen's, Manag, etc.) and you should definitely take them into consideration as your buffing your team for 4T bursting.

I know people don't like Vishnu 'cos she's really hard to use, but she's fast, too, like Lugh fast, well until Lugh bursts that is... But Vishnu can actually keep herself alive. If you have no one better or don't have a healer to pair with Lugh, Vishnu still gets the job done. Also, if you're trying to MVP something and just need to burst as quickly as possible like the current raid, Metatron is your girl.

I apologize, I don't have Vishnu so I always forget how fast she is. As for Metatron, once she went into first sub spot, she also tends not to be on my thought list for team creation. She is fast, but doesn't support sustained fast bursting like the other 4 Himes we're talking about.

Do what I do - first TA buff from Tish goes on the soul, after the first burst, put it on Take. Keeps the burst speed pretty even so no one is falling significantly behind. That is why I love Tish, when you use her well, it keeps your burst machine in sync so it's rare for anyone to be waiting around for burst (unless you use Metatron, she's a different animal.)

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much. You have Sol for when she tries to paralyze you and for some healing to keep you through the 20Mil life she has. This strategy also works on soloing the Wind Ult also (just no need for 3T burst). For the standard 4T burst cycle, I always buff the Hime prior (slot 1) to Tish (if not Take) so that I can get there and then buff Sol (slot 3) on the next opportunity. My current team is Shingen, Tsuki, Tish, Sol and Michael. I also activate both Michael and Shingen's DATA buff on turn one. It's fairly rare that Tsuki isn't at 90 for the 4T burst (less than ~5% of the time) and it's usually because I hit a streak of DA's instead of TA's. Takeminakata makes the team faster and hit harder, but I lose the full 50% DEF down in that setup, so I'm moving more to running Tsuki than Take at the moment. Make sure whoever you pick for the that second slot gets all DATA items you can give her. Right now Tsuki has, I think, around 7% total DATA from accessories since all three are just that. It's not enough, but it helps in sustaining the 4T burst on a slow Hime until we get the Tiara bonus unlocked.

If you're running Joan for sustain in a Rag fights, then, by all means, TA buff her. You're not trying to over power the Rag anymore and are looking to contribute through the fight.

Yes, but remember every time she gets her BG 20, she is also nuking for 3-3.5x, that's on top of her regular attack, so that's like much better than even Take's TA. Also, depending on whether you can spare Tish's heal on Lugh or have Sol on your team, Lugh can in theory keep it up much longer than Take. You can also 'store' Lugh's BG for 1T and do double nuke/BG the next turn, whereas Take's TA is wasted if you burst on a turn where her TA is still up (I want Lugh so badly :cry:)

Certainly not in the realm of Tish or Mike, yes, but they have different roles, and ideally you want all of them - Mike just speeds everyone up, Tish is fast and speeds up bottleneck himes, Lugh/Take/Vishnu are faster and makes it easy to accommodate a slow hime (Arty / LT / Sol / Eros / Raphy / whatever you have/need for the content you're facing.)

Don't worry bud... next Miracle Ticket! Won't be more than 3/4 months. Not that long at all.

Dejnov.

dreamlitz

06-27-2019, 01:56 PM

How can you compare Take with Lugh ?, Lugh is just better in any case, if you can keep her nuke constantly, you are looking at 4-4,5x dmg and 30BG per turn without any DATA, 8x dmg 40BG in the turn after burst, 15x dmg 70BG if you do the double nuke after burst trick. Take GTA is 3x dmg 30 BG per turn that have mother fucking 10T cool down.

I don't want to put words in Dejnov's mouth, but if I'm not mistaken, neither Dejnov nor I are arguing that Take is better than Lugh. If anything, I thought we were giving the opposite impression - neither of us have Lugh and wants Lugh so badly even though we both have Take. The comparison we are trying to make is about keeping burst up, since bursting frequently is a very important source of dmg, and for that, Take can be competitive with Lugh 'cos Lugh needs heal to keep going. That is why I mentioned Vishnu, who is consistently fast without needing heal or waiting for CD, even though her individual DPS normally can't come close to competing with Lugh or even Take. If she's all you've got though, you can still build a high speed burst team with her.

Also, if I am to nitpick, if your grid is still sporting multiple SR disaster hammers, Take's echo burst is no joke and might actually be able to compete with Lugh (haven't done the math, shoot me down if you ran the numbers and find that I'm dead wrong.) Take can take care of herself and is a good pull for almost anyone. Whereas, if your best healer is Belobog and you don't have any of the fast himes, you might think Lugh is overrated (and just to be clear, I think Lugh is awesome, I literally spent all my jewels and tickets to try to pull for her but failed.)

Metatron is a different monster?

I said 'a different animal'... Figure of speech... As in she is a special case, I did not mean to imply she's extra strong. I was trying to say that Tish can keep everyone's BG more or less in sync so no one is waiting around for burst. Metatron WILL be waiting around for burst even with Tish around, so she is a special case. Whether that special case is useful or not depends on the situation.

even with AW she is still subtatron, she is weak, 150% burst dmg per 2 turn ?, that’s a joke compare to Uriel 400% burst dmg per 2 turn that come along with a mini 1x dmg and GDATA buff.

I agree, the closest light hime to Uriel AW level DPS is Lugh, but they operate kinda differently. Uriel AW can be awesome on her own, Lugh needs to be paired with heal to remain awesome for longer battles.

And how long Metatron need to do 3-4m dmg ?, 9 fucking turn, she do basically nothing in between, just a pure dead weight with no DATA and nuke.

Eh, her 150% burst stacks on 2T CD kinda functions like a nuke though. Most red abilities give like what 3x dmg on a 6-7T CD. If you're using her as a main, don't put her in the first slot so you can get her to burst on her own and get enough BG in time to join the FB, essentially giving her a nuke. Her dmg output is very respectable compared to anyone except Lugh and is far from dead weight imo.

Take and Meta only good in dummy, out side that, Lugh kick their ass hard

Not disagreeing, Lugh is OP if you use her right.

Btw, I find it slightly ironic that yesterday I was portrayed as a Sol-hater and today I'm a Lugh-hater, when in fact I love both and actually tell ppl to mtix both if they can..

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much. You have Sol for when she tries to paralyze you and for some healing to keep you through the 20Mil life she has. This strategy also works on soloing the Wind Ult also (just no need for 3T burst). For the standard 4T burst cycle, I always buff the Hime prior (slot 1) to Tish (if not Take) so that I can get there and then buff Sol (slot 3) on the next opportunity. My current team is Shingen, Tsuki, Tish, Sol and Michael. I also activate both Michael and Shingen's DATA buff on turn one. It's fairly rare that Tsuki isn't at 90 for the 4T burst (less than ~5% of the time) and it's usually because I hit a streak of DA's instead of TA's. Takeminakata makes the team faster and hit harder, but I lose the full 50% DEF down in that setup, so I'm moving more to running Tsuki than Take at the moment. Make sure whoever you pick for the that second slot gets all DATA items you can give her. Right now Tsuki has, I think, around 7% total DATA from accessories since all three are just that. It's not enough, but it helps in sustaining the 4T burst on a slow Hime until we get the Tiara bonus unlocked.

Interesting... I don't have Shingen yet (ignored UE when I first started playing the game, BIG mistake x_x) so I'm running Herc usually. I will definitely need to give that a shot when I get round to it.

Don't worry bud... next Miracle Ticket! Won't be more than 3/4 months. Not that long at all..

Yes, I already earmarked the money from my gaming budget for it =P

Dejnov

06-27-2019, 02:04 PM

Btw, I find it slightly ironic that yesterday I was portrayed as a Sol-hater and today I'm a Lugh-hater, when in fact I love both and actually tell ppl to mtix both if they can..

Damn dream... why are you such a Debbie-downer... gotta hate on all the popular gurls....:rofl:

Dejnov.

Unregistered

06-27-2019, 07:42 PM

dreamlitz

06-28-2019, 03:19 PM

1. Take echo burst is 500k dmg in the first burst cycle because she start with 3 sword and each sword give her 250k dmg, but she had to use 1 for her GTA tho. You had to save her first skill for second cycle if you don’t what her to lose 50% of her atk and def because of that passive. So the second cycle she will be a complete dead weight with no dmg nor speed, basically a R hime, so she need Tish’s help, but if you speed her up to release that sweet 750k echo burst, her first skill can’t come of cd on time so that turn her into a 1/2 R hime. Furthermore, she can’t be used as a burst leader like Lugh because Tish need to help someone else.

I agree, in any drawn out combat with a half decent light team, Take is gonna be caught without her swords for at least a few turns and will also need Tish's help. What I like about Take is that she is much more flexible than people perhaps realize:

You can front-load her dmg and just use abi 1 and nothing else during BT to unleash a sick 1.25m echo burst. In things like raid events, losing atk and def doesn't matter 'cos the boss dies soon after anyway with other players piling on.
You can back-load dmg as well if you can turtle and hold back bursting. Only use abi 1 and abi 2, so Take builds up to 5 swords and 3 more stored in abi 1 off CD while being nearly indestructible with effectively 2/6 dmg immunity and 333/T heal - this is useful occasionally in GO.
You can turbo front-load dmg on mob by using abi 3 then abi 1 on T1, so you get the double AoE nuke with critical. This is useful in dark AQ1-4 when you just want to clear it quickly.
For those at the point where you're worrying about dmg cap (I'm not there yet), Take's echo burst becomes more important, especially in things like upcoming dummy events as another poster has mentioned.

Take's flexibility comes at the cost of inconsistent speed and dmg output. If you just need DPS, nothing beats Lugh, no one is questioning that. I wouldn't completely write off Take just because Lugh has arrived though.

2. Compare meta to Uriel is a little bit unfair, let take Ares instead, the one that you guys say she is mediocre, ok?. Meta is decently fast because her BG skill and if you take her burst dmg as a nuke, it’s 4,5x dmg 6t cd nuke, Ares have 7x dmg 6t cd nuke, she is as fast as meta, and on top of that, she beat meta by her DATA dmg, so yeah, meta still suck out side tower.

I'm gonna stick my neck out a little for Meta, while hoping I don't offend someone else and be accused of hating yet another popular hime. I don't want this to turn into a light vs fire comparison, since that seems beyond the scope of this thread, but Ares and Meta are designed for different situations. Ares works best in encounters that don't drag on forever. Meta works best either in situations where she's only needed for a turn or two for burst, or very long encounters dragging out to T9 where she bursts hard (e.g. GO, maybe AQ depending on your play style.) She can also 'store' dmg by stacking abi 1 and not bursting. She is more of a spike dmg machine, not an OP DPS machine. It's somewhat similar to the Take vs Lugh comparison. Meta provides more tactical options, and that comes at a cost. In most situations, ppl just want DPS, and that is why most ppl with Meta put her in the sub slot. But I think it's a mistake to ignore her just because there're better DPS-ers.

Light has great tactical options, which makes it a very nice element to main in for ppl like me that uses just one element 95%+ of the time either because of laziness, don't have the time and resources to maintain multiple elements, or just haven't played long enough to have decent grids for every element from just f2p.

TLDR: Tish and Mike is the base of Light team, if you want more dmg, take Lugh, if you want to use Lugh, take Sol. or you can wait until Iris come out, she is a little bit RNG, but if her RNG is good, her DMG can even compare with full force Lugh, and she don’t need Sol yay, so then you can run whatever you bias want.

Agreed, very nice summary!

P/s: Lugh have 20% C-frame for debuff lover, just mention XD

And Iris has 30% light rst down O.O Which is why SSR Arty and LT are falling out of meta (I've been told they get a rebalance later that makes them look less bad next to Lugh and Iris, but you'll still want Lugh and/or Iris...)

QXZ

06-30-2019, 08:23 AM

some of you might disagree with me but this is my current composition
12650

its not flashy like the other builds, but its very well rounded. i use this team for most contents.

my struggle with Take / Tish and Shingen is that they each have weaknesses that needs to be covered, making the team vulnerable to in certain situations - necessitating team swaps. this is especially the case with fights that have mechanics - usually some kind of enemy buff that needs to be cleansed or debuffs that need to be blocked. the extra DEF down is helpful too since some of them miss or on CD during multi-stage fights. you also don't depend on another teammate, which makes soloing Dark Cats much more bearable.

Dejnov

06-30-2019, 09:58 AM

its not flashy like the other builds, but its very well rounded. i use this team for most contents.

my struggle with Take / Tish and Shingen is that they each have weaknesses that needs to be covered, making the team vulnerable to in certain situations - necessitating team swaps. this is especially the case with fights that have mechanics - usually some kind of enemy buff that needs to be cleansed or debuffs that need to be blocked. the extra DEF down is helpful too since some of them miss or on CD during multi-stage fights. you also don't depend on another teammate, which makes soloing Dark Cats much more bearable.

I think the absolute beauty of Light is that each Hime excels at what they are built to do. Some can be played multiple ways (such as Takeminakata), but most fit their required role very well. The changing of one or two Himes helps the team switch focus gives you the ability to handle different triggers. They are also an element that can do debuff content and can transcend to non-debuff content by switching Himes on their team as needed. Being able to create a team for a specific boss is a big plus and other elements struggle with that flexibility (like Dark). Others are naturally built slow and struggle to get a full team up to fast burst speed (such as Water). Light may not have the pure awesome fire power of Fire and Thunder, but gets a lot of flexibility for different content.

My current favorite teams are:

General Content: Shingen (Ambush), Shamash, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael
Burst Content: Shingen (Encourage Inspiration), Takeminakata, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael
Debuff Content: Shingen (Ambush), Tsukiyomi, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael
Wing Rag: Joan (Saint Breath), Shamash, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael

As you can see, small changes can truly create a different team and team capability fairly easily in Light. I struggle to get that flexibility in my Dark, Wind, and Water teams (and my Fire and Thunder teams suck balls so eh).

Dejnov.

dreamlitz

06-30-2019, 10:48 AM

I think the absolute beauty of Light is that each Hime excels at what they are built to do.

This. I literally find every single light SSR I pull to be useful in at least some situations (except Atum, I never use her, maybe if you have neither Sol nor Tish. Atum gets buffed later though, so maybe I'll use her then.)

Outside of AQ5 (and of course tower), I have yet to find a situation that can't be solved with my light teams.

AutoCrimson

06-30-2019, 11:13 AM

disclaimer - i do not main light, nor do i main other elements

claimer - if a person (want) to be top on Light, said person needs to manual shit

Unregistered

06-30-2019, 12:03 PM

disclaimer - i do not main light, nor do i main other elements

claimer - if a person (want) to be top on Light, said person needs to manual shit

Have you ever hear about L.Athena, Mike, Sol, Vishnu aab comp ?. With a good grid that comp can take care every solo content. But yeah if you want to MVP a rag with vets, you better manual it, who doesn’t anyway

AutoCrimson

06-30-2019, 12:07 PM

With a good grid that comp can take care every solo content.
"solo" content is by default "no-contender"

Have you ever hear about L.Athena, Mike, Sol, Vishnu aab comp ?

i am really sorry, but i just play the game)

Unregistered

07-03-2019, 10:29 PM

This. I literally find every single light SSR I pull to be useful in at least some situations (except Atum, I never use her, maybe if you have neither Sol nor Tish. Atum gets buffed later though, so maybe I'll use her then.)

Outside of AQ5 (and of course tower), I have yet to find a situation that can't be solved with my light teams.

FYI Atum was just buffed. I have her and can confirm.

Dejnov

07-04-2019, 02:25 AM

FYI Atum was just buffed. I have her and can confirm.

Do you use her not that she's buffed? Is she any good?

Dejnov.

Unregistered

07-04-2019, 09:30 AM

Gludateton

07-04-2019, 10:40 AM

Abi 1 - added abi damage/abi cap up and affliction rate buff
Abi 2 - buffed heal to 3k cap (still only 20% max HP, so good luck hitting it without accessories), buffed barrier to 3k, added 50% vigor buff
Abi 3 - buffed healed amount to 50% max HP (probably no cap)
On burst effect added - resets cd on abi 2.

Atum is now pretty solid damage buffer (50% vigor buff is no joke).

Unregistered

07-04-2019, 10:53 AM

I don't have Tish or Sol, so she's the best healer i have. Her heal got buffed to 3247 HP for me (i have one ascension UE staff) and got vigor and and barrier added. Her heal cooldown resets after burst. Also ability damage up and affliction up to her first ability.

She seems pretty decent to me, but again i don't have some of the other good healers to compare.

After some more testing it looks like the healing is a % of max hp, not a flat number anymore. My rough estimates are somewhere around 20% of max hp without ascension.

Gludateton

07-04-2019, 10:57 AM

Most (if not all) heals are % of max HP, but you ignore that fact, because they hit cap easily. Atum's abi heals for 20% max HP and has 3k cap, which means that target needs to have at least 15k HP for it to hit the cap (I ignore here any ascension bonuses).

Slashley

07-04-2019, 11:45 AM

Most (if not all) heals are % of max HP, but you ignore that fact, because they hit cap easily.--This.

It's a little known fact in Kamihime since the heal caps are in general so damn low.

dreamlitz

07-04-2019, 08:11 PM

Just tried out buffed Atum. I must say, I'm really liking her and trying to clear a spot for her on my debuff resistant team. 
 
Haven't tested her heal cap yet, 'cos I've been using her to heal...

Crow

08-07-2019, 07:48 AM

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much.

Sorry for another necro, but I'm still returning to this and especially position Mike should be on. Granted, I don't have Tish nor Shingen, so my burst aren't that fast, but still the general logic should be the same. So the question is - why is Mike on last spot, instead of first (outside of Take scenario)? While my initial thought was to indeed have Mike on last spot - so that the +20 BG from her burst doesn't get wasted, but giving it some second thought - in general it should not.

If Mike is on first Hime position, it allows you to FB when second hime is at 60%. This allows us to land a first FB faster. Now, if Mike is last, she instantly provides +20 to all characters for the next burst... But if she is in front of them, they don't need the immediate +20, as they will just get it during FB from Mike bursting before them. Finally, Mike also has a built-in double attack, which may sometimes save the FB, should the TA from Tish not proc...

One scenario where I could see the benefit of having her on last spot is if you are afraid she will die. That way, the +20 BG from her burst is already on other characters and will not be lost. It would also make more difference in some abstract scenario, where she would solo burst between FBs. At last spot she only needs 60%, she already gets 20% from her burst, maybe you also have some +BG abilities ready, so refilling for FB would not be out of question, but the odds are that by the time Mike is ready for her solo burst, some other hime is at 100% already, so you can't burst anyway.

So, TL;DR; - I see Michael on last spot in a lot of comments / screenshots. What am I missing here, that makes people chose this instead of placing her first?

Bear

08-07-2019, 08:01 AM

So, TL;DR; - I see Michael on last spot in a lot of comments / screenshots. What am I missing here, that makes people chose this instead of placing her first?

Nothing. None whatsoever.

There is nothing you need to worry about Mike's position other than her speed relative to the other members of your team. There had been this misconception (for god knows what reason) that Mike should be placed last so that the team may get a head start next cycle, but this is only half true, as people have forgotten that she also carries the speed of those placed behind her.

Nice. You've managed to figure out the best correct answer for your superstition *pachi pachi pachi*

QXZ

08-07-2019, 09:20 PM

what bear said is exactly what i do and i main light. i currently have michael as the first KH.
that being said, for certain quests, i go all-out offense and put in faster himes - ie. tish and take', in which case Michael takes a back seat.

Crow

10-09-2019, 09:33 AM

Bumping this thread again. I wonder if any kind player could give us an update, on how is Light meta shaping with t4 souls on DMM? Are there any changes in himes we should be aiming for with rolls / tickets? Also, between Michael, Tish, Lugh, Iris, Vishnu, Sol and other utility himes, what is the go-to general purpose setup? With Lugh and Iris, it got a little bit crowded on the 'extremely strong and fast' himes market.

dreamlitz

10-09-2019, 12:24 PM

how is Light meta shaping with t4 souls on DMM?

I don't have a DMM account, but my understanding is that the light meta won't change much since there're literally no new non-limited edition light SSRs released from now until about a year later when light Kingu comes out. The limited edition ones (Michiru, Halloween Hastur, Valentine's Baal) are not particularly remarkable (actually I like VBaal, but she doesn't do much that isn't already covered by some other light SSR, and she comes out after dark tower, so won't even be a useful tower body for a long while.)

The only big change is probably Eros AW early next year (supposed to be around February, but Azzy AW still isn't here, so who the heck knows...) she'll be part of the light meta for any fights where things keep throwing debuffs at you (i.e. almost every rag.)

As for T4 souls, well Medea is a top choice for competitive stuff regardless of element. After that, it's more playstyle. Hector seems popular, but if I'm not mistaken, her biggest selling point is the team-wide critical buff, which is great if you're fighting DRag/Aratron/Och, but if you're like me, where light is your one and only viable element, she won't be as attractive 'cos critical requires you to be on-element. If you're going Hector route, keep your Metatron hammer and Iris glaive dupes if you draw any - Meta hammer and Iris glaive both give 20BG refund on burst if you can FLB them, which will be very important for keeping Hector from slowing down your burst cycle too much. I'll probably go for Asclepius after Medea though, 'cos I like to AAB stuff - you need Sol and a good ascension grid if you're going that route.

I haven't researched much about the second batch of T4s, that's still too far away for me to pay attention so I won't comment much there. However, word is that Yori pretty much makes every element fast, so light will lose its edge in the age of Yori =(

Are there any changes in himes we should be aiming for with rolls / tickets? Also, between Michael, Tish, Lugh, Iris, Vishnu, Sol and other utility himes, what is the go-to general purpose setup? With Lugh and Iris, it got a little bit crowded on the 'extremely strong and fast' himes market.

Eros - most underrated light SSR imho. There is her eventual AW but she is still useful today though, especially if you aren't at the point where you can just wanpan everything. She has affliction block, which allows you to safely AAB things that are dangerous to not wanpan (e.g. TUlt and Sandalphon GO.) She is also a very good defense hime (I know she's classified as balanced, but she's more like a defense hime) - A frame 20% atk down and 1.2k barrier/def up on 3/6T CD - it may not seem like much but it adds up and synergizes well with Sol. She also works well with Hercules 'cos all her buffs make it pretty easy for Herc's nuke to hit cap. Oh, and she's very AAB-friendly, which is why Eros actually sees more use than Lugh for me, one can only manual so much for a day.

Also, with few exceptions, I'm of the opinion that pretty much every light SSR is useful, although in terms of mtix worthiness, I would probably only include Mike, Tish, Iris, Lugh, Sol, Eros (not necessarily in that order, depends on who else you have; full disclosure, I mtixed a bunch of himes not on that list due to a collector's impulse.) I won't actually include Vishnu even though she is very good; her weapon is worth the tix though if you're at the point of thinking of tix-ing primarily for weapons. The only himes that I don't see much use these days are light Tsuku (Iris just does everything better), Frey (don't have her on my main account yet, but if I did, I wouldn't use her outside of tower and maybe dummy - she's very good when you're nowhere near hitting burst cap but CD is too long and not fast enough to compete in a modern light team) and SSR Arty (Lugh/Iris does everything better, but she'll be usable again after rebalance, whenever that is.) None of those himes are bad btw, just less OP than others and don't have a niche that's hard to fill - they're still good if you don't have the more OP ones (heck, I practically grew up with light Tsuku, who helped me get to the point where I started challenging rags.)

Crow

10-09-2019, 02:06 PM

Interesting, since Medea does not seem to have any BG generation. Does that mean that fast bursting (for example 3T cycle) is no longer played? But can she even burst on 5T cycle, without big help?

dreamlitz

10-09-2019, 08:36 PM

Interesting, since Medea does not seem to have any BG generation. Does that mean that fast bursting (for example 3T cycle) is no longer played? But can she even burst on 5T cycle, without big help?

Haven't tried her myself, but my understanding is that she's basically the same speed as Solomon, so yeah, need a lot of outside help to burst fast (FLB Iris glaive helps there if you're lucky enough to get it. EDIT: don't do this, see post below) Medea has insane nukes though, so for stuff like tower it doesn't matter too much that you're not bursting super fast (can only use Mike AW once every 6 floors anyway, and should only save the harder floors for off-element clears.) I'm not sure if ppl use her for MVP racing in rags, maybe if it's super crowded during BT, otherwise I thought Hector is more favored for MVP racing but I could be wrong.

dreamlitz

10-10-2019, 06:07 AM

FLB Iris glaive helps there if you're lucky enough to get it.

Ok, so more experienced players have pointed out to me that Medea's weapon retains Solomon key's useful skill of converting her first nuke to AoE and also changes her unimpressive ability dmg burst effect to the very useful skill CD reduction, so using anything other than her soul weapon is not advised.

Crow

01-02-2020, 01:44 PM

I will cross-link mr dreamlitz post from other topic to bump this thread, as it still contains relevant information for people intending to main light. The current iteration over recommended himes is HERE: https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/5188-ssr-mono-teams-whats-element-post151760.html#post151760

At the same time I would like to use this opportunity to ask question, about how do people form teams with Lugh / Iris / Tish? I have managed to collect all three, but each composition feels somewhat clunky.

Likely every team will want Mike AW. From there one could add all three fast himes, but it just lacks the sustain that Sol brings along. Especially when going for light guardian, the cleanse is simply needed. Light Rag also lasts long enough, that the sustain from Sol adds a lot. Finally, with Lugh and Tish both dealing damage to themselves, going that way doesn't feel great for anything that doesn't end in few turns.

Assuming we bring along Sol, we now need to kick out one of the fast himes. Tishtrya really helps Iris. Not only she allows her to burst early, before she stacks her sword effects, but also she helps her to land her debuff. And without landing the debuff, Iris is just inferior to Vishnu. However, Iris+Tish means we leave behind our strongest nuker, Lugh.

Going Lugh + Tish means you only have a single strong attacker, only -35% def, and if at any point you want to start to auto, you suddenly kill yourself. Finally bringing Lugh without Tish against anything that actually deals damage, makes it very hard to keep Lugh alive.

Finall thought is - I wonder why there is so little love for Visnhu. She can consistently burst every third turn, deals a lot of autoattack damage even if she looses occasionally her stacks, has a ton of self-sustain between burst barrier and third skill. With 65k attack I currently have (and no fluffy) she bursts for around 50% more than fully stacked Iris. With that she outdamages and outsustains Iris, while being more consistent, provided someone else in the raid brings def debuffs. Dreamlitz mentioned, that her big problem is continuous damage, but at the same time this is even bigger problem for her main competitor - Lugh. My only quarrel with Visnhu is that you need to fire two skills every turn. While this is useful during AQ7, I have lost MVPs multiple times, because I need to take two 'rounds' just loading her skills, while other participants deal damage (wish we could just queue skills instead of staring 10 seconds at 'connecting' after each click...). Having said that - why is she not considered a top tier anymore?

dreamlitz

01-03-2020, 03:14 PM

At the same time I would like to use this opportunity to ask question, about how do people form teams with Lugh / Iris / Tish? I have managed to collect all three, but each composition feels somewhat clunky.

I think ppl should just use what works for them in general, since your grid and the ppl you raid with will have a big influence on what works or not. That being said, I will give my take here for reference, which is based largely on my experience but also on other players I've talked to:

Likely every team will want Mike AW. From there one could add all three fast himes, but it just lacks the sustain that Sol brings along.

If I'm racing, I always bring Mike AW, in fact, the only time I don't bring her is for those use SR/R only missions for events. Faster burst cycling is just too much dmg to forego. As for Sol AW, I always bring her unless I'm racing in a crowded raid where you can only get 2-3 FB off before it ends. This is controversial, but I would argue there's actually a middle path between full glass cannon and Sol, which is Raphy AW - her stalling can give you more turns to get off an extra FB, which can be worth more than bringing another attacker if you only have enough time to get 2-3 FB off and Raphy is needed to buy you enough time for that last FB before you wipe. I used to do that for pre-nerf LRag, Raphy gives me 1-2T more before my team starts falling apart, and that was usually enough to get off another FB.

Assuming we bring along Sol, we now need to kick out one of the fast himes.

It shouldn't be necessary to bring 3 fast himes - with Mike AW, the last slot only requires 40 BG to burst (this works even if Mike AW is in the last slot - she'll start 20 BG ahead for the 2nd burst onwards.) Alternating Mike AW and Shingen BG gain skill effectively cuts that to only 20 BG, so it's basically guaranteed 3T burst even if you stick a R in the last slot. With tiara sets, fluffy/Shingen/Mike DATA buffs, last slot can easily be on 2T burst cycle. For the second last slot, you only need 30 BG, which can easily do 2-3T burst cycle, too, so you typically only need two fast himes for the first two slots behind the soul. If you want to go for more 2T than 3T cycling, I would wait for Eros AW as only Lugh can somewhat consistently hit 2T burst.

Going Lugh + Tish means you only have a single strong attacker, only -35% def, and if at any point you want to start to auto, you suddenly kill yourself. Finally bringing Lugh without Tish against anything that actually deals damage, makes it very hard to keep Lugh alive.

A few things here:

You can usually rely on others to debuff if you're MVP-racing. If you're solo-ing, your comp needs to be sturdy enough to work without debuffs anyway since most rags/guards are debuff resistant.
If you AAB, just don't bring Lugh. Tish is actually ok to AAB if you bring Sol with you - Tish only consumes 6.67% of her health on average per turn from ability use, versus 15% for Lugh.
If you expect a lengthier battle, try Lugh, Tish, Mike AW, Sol AW. Sol can heal Lugh for up to 10.8k 'cos of Lugh's passive. The regen from Sol also doubles on Lugh and is actually quite nice for keeping her alive. I usually save Tish's heal as an emergency button for when Lugh (or anyone else) gets hit.
It's always an option to just let Lugh die and a sub to come on.
Also, I have to disagree that Tish is not a strong attacker (forget how the dev classify himes.) Tish is worth a lot just from faster team burst cycling, and her TA/atk buffs actually increase dmg by a lot, too. I've made this case before at various times and places, but I'll lay out some math again here, 'cos I often see ppl making similar arguments to erroneously conclude that Hercules is better than Shingen or Cu is better than Aether etc. for total dmg:

Burst cycling:

Assume you DA every other turn on average, such that your regular attack is 1.5x base dmg or 7.5x for the whole team per turn
Also assume single-target FB without PF or exceed and off element with all SSR, then FB is 5x5x1.5 = 37.5x. Then if Tish reduces your FB from every 5T to every 4T instead, your average per turn dmg goes from (4*7.5+37.5)/5T = 13.5x to (3*7.5+37.5)/4T = 15x, so Tish boosts dmg by 1.5x on average per turn just from faster burst cycling.
For reference, most nukes work out to be 1-1.25x per turn if you divide the multiplier by CD and don't hit cap. It's usually lower 'cos you should start to hit cap around your power level.
Also note that this is pretty much the lower bound - the dmg improvement goes much higher if you go from 4T to 3T FB and if you have exceed in your grid (for reference, going from 4T to 3T with 120% exceed in grid (e.g. 3 UE axes) gives a 3.25x per turn improvement.)
While I'm at it, it's worth reiterating that this is why Mike AW is so valuable as she can single-handedly cut your team burst cycle by 2T or more, and give some team-wide buffs on top to make the bursts even more powerful.
Extra damage from buffs:

Assume 150% assault from grid to make the math cleaner
Assume 4T burst cycle and 1.5x per normal attack to be consistent with above, then each hime's per turn dmg averages to (3*1.5x+7.5)/4T = 3x per turn
Tish's 50% atk buff increases two hime's dmg by 20% for 5/6T and the 50% TA effectively works out to be an extra 1x of NAtk for 5/6T, so the improved dmg is now (3x+1x*3/4T NAtk)*(1+20%)*5/6T +3x*1/6T = 4.25x = 1.25x improvement for one hime, or 2.5x total for two himes. It can be quite a bit less if the himes don't burst with the atk buff up, but on average it should work out to that ballpark.

I wonder why there is so little love for Visnhu.

I like Vishnu a lot. I actually used her during the first dummy 'cos I didn't have Lugh or Iris back then. If you want to comfortably AAB AQ7, it's also either her or Iris 'cos you need to use an ability every turn and I personally use Vishnu for that 'cos she's faster and can hit harder more reliably as AAB can't get Iris on 3T burst all the time (I pair Vishnu with light Athena, so Vishnu rarely loses her buffs.)

For MVP-racing and dummy though, Vishnu usually loses out for several reasons:

No debuffs - you mentioned that Iris' debuff can miss, yes, but with Vishnu, it's the equivalent to guaranteed miss 'cos she doesn't bring any at all
No utility - speed and power isn't everything, Sol AW usually make it on my teams 'cos of the utility she brings, Vishnu provides none
Too many other fast himes - Vishnu is fast, but not like Lugh fast where she can burst on her own and still FB without slowing down the overall team burst cycle; for just a regular fast-enough himes to make 3T burst though, there's plenty of competition, namely Tish, Iris, re-balanced Arty and depending on which slot you put her in, Frey might even be fast enough, and all of those himes bring something else to the table besides speed and dmg
Weak against DoT - that means she's a bad match against DUlt and DRag, making her critical buffs useful only in Aratron outside of events

Dreamlitz mentioned, that her big problem is continuous damage

I don't remember saying that about Vishnu, sounds like something I would say about Takeminakata though... I might have been referring to Vishnu's buffs expiring after 5T, but you can restack them again. Vishnu is the most consistently fast light hime - short of exhaustion or ability seal, it's guaranteed 20 BG gain per turn with no conditions.

I have lost MVPs multiple times, because I need to take two 'rounds' just loading her skills, while other participants deal damage (wish we could just queue skills instead of staring 10 seconds at 'connecting' after each click...)

When you're in a raid like that, you might have better luck with less clicky himes like Arty or rely on echo instead of nukes like Frey. Also, there is a partial solution to queuing skills - have all the himes that are AAB-friendly lined up behind the soul, then press reload as soon as the last AAB-friendly hime has used all her skills. I do this on my Herc build - I want all of Herc and Mike's skills used, so I put Mike in 1st slot, AAB, reload when Mike is done. I do that every 7T 'cos most of their skills have 7T CD. AAB often nukes before buffing for Herc, and depending on your comp, you might be forced to put himes faster than Mike behind Mike, so it's not optimal, but it sure does save me a lot of screen staring and waiting.