New DMM Feature: Seraph Union Events! (Goodbye Demon)

[Kitty]

welcome the new Union Events! I'll create a new thread just because it got pretty spammed out in general discussions earlier.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/314411010301755392/532511632186671104/unknown.png

now rather than the seven deadly sins, meet the seven virtues!
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/314411010301755392/532515976697348097/unknown.png
edit: translated their names to japanese and english

1. セラフィ・せっそう (Seraph Chastity) TBA
2. セラフィ・せつど (Seraph Temperance) TBA
3. セラフィ・チャリティー (Seraph Charity) TBA
4. セラフィ・ きんべん (Seraph Diligence) TBA
5. セラフィ・ペーシェンス (Seraph Patience) - Water
6. セラフィ・しんせつ (Seraph Kindness) TBA
7. セラフィ・けんきょさ(Seraph Humility) TBA

about the lilim counterpart, all I can think of is the words "Pneuma" literally being the religious ancient Greek word for "Spirit," or "Spiritus" being the Latin translation.

also seems like they've changed them around so they're not the "opposites" to their sin counterpart, since they've made patience WATER yet the sin counterpart is wrath which is fire. maybe it'll be like that for all elements, so humility is most likely going to be dark, yet it's the counterpart of pride
and kindness is going to be light, yet its the counterpart of envy (just a hunch, tho, no one is 100% since no info about them has been released other than patience) and if it goes by that logic, Charity will remain phantom/greed counterpart.

What are your opinions on the new raid? do you like the idea of the polar opposites to the demons being the new enemy?
The event starts on DMM in about 24 hours, and I can add more information here about the battles, the rewards, weapons, eidolon effect etc.

[Cobblemaniac]

All I can say is...

Probably no para.

Hopefully no para.

Please no para.

[Laventale]

RIP Para train niggas.

[Slashley]

All I can say is...

Probably no para.

Hopefully no para.

Please no para.On one hand, it'd be nice to have actual co-op events like Lust.

On the other hand, being able to solo Paratrain set some people apart. Losing that would be sad.

[Dunhere]

Please no para. 16 hours of clicking Blitz Donner makes me want to kill myself.

[Cobblemaniac]

Please no para. 16 hours of clicking Blitz Donner makes me want to kill myself.

Oh, it'll probably still be 16 hours of doing something else alright

[Gludateton]

No, just no. Paratrain is unintended mechanic, that's in many (most ?) cases borderline cheating.
While unintended usage of mechanics (Iustitia's immortality) is fine by itself, paratrain is just stupid and I hope it caeses to exist.

[Kitty]

yeah, no paratrain sounds really nice tbh. it's something my union have never done, yet we still end up a nice rank for ranking fee rewards... i never liked the idea of that... now we'll see the real ranks ppl would get.
not that I expect them to get much less. it'll just be nice to see a more fair overall ranking.

[Torkov]

Excuse my lack of english vocabulary, but what is paratrain?

[Slashley]

Excuse my lack of english vocabulary, but what is paratrain?It stands in for "Paralyze train."

Basically what you do is put 100 Grail buffs into Affliction, and then Awakened Thor will have a near 100% hitrate with her 30 second Paralyze skill. This entirely disables the fight and you can just do it again and again.

[Cobblemaniac]

Excuse my lack of english vocabulary, but what is paratrain?

At it's most fundamental, it's literally spamming paralyse debuff on the boss so she never gets a chance to attack. Ever.

[Torkov]

Ah yeah, now I get it, thanks. I should have guessed.

[Kitty]

introducing: Solone Desire

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/314411010301755392/533224720737239040/unknown.png

[Unregistered]

No new summons(h-scenes) and arguably worse weapons since one is complete dog shit. Not even sure why they bothered.

[Slashley]

No new summons(h-scenes) and arguably worse weapons since one is complete dog shit. Not even sure why they bothered.Because they realized that Demons were giving too good weapons for F2P. They want you to pay for the good shit.

[Laventale]

No new summons(h-scenes)

>hentai game
>new character
>no new H scenes
Yeah no, fuck off.

[Kitty]

we don't know that yet. could just be another case of the first union event (2016/17 UE Pride) had no obtainable eidolons from the rewards... they came on the next event instead.

[Kimoi]

>Solone
You mean Throne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrones)

[Unregistered]

we don't know that yet. could just be another case of the first union event (2016/17 UE Pride) had no obtainable eidolons from the rewards... they came on the next event instead.

They could fix it in the future, and if this were a new kind of event or they added new features or something maybe they'd get the benefit of the doubt. But this is just a reskin of an event type we've been getting for over 2 years now and it's super underwhelming. Combine that with them giving us new himes and awakenings at a slower rate, presumably because they're trying to save Unitia, techcross can go fuck themselves.

[Slashley]

Underwhelming is a bit of an understatement, since those weapons seem like utter and complete fucking garbage.

Single skill FLBs? What the fuck nigger.

[Kitty]

>Solone
You mean Throne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrones)

rlly? I assumed "Solone" since it's the Greek word for "Wise"

but thanks, I wasnt 100% sure.

[Kitty]

What the fuck nigger.


LMFAOOOO WtF

[falcontea]

rlly? I assumed "Solone" since it's the Greek word for "Wise"

but thanks, I wasnt 100% sure.

It's probably Solone. Unless DMM put "throne" out there in English I've never seen it spelled out like that in katakana.

[Kimoi]

It's probably Solone. Unless DMM put "throne" out there in English I've never seen it spelled out like that in katakana.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BA%A7%E5%A4%A9%E4%BD%BF
https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Throne
???

[KTA]

>Solone
You mean Throne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrones)

I doubt you'd pronounce "Throne" with a ネ＝"ne", so that doesn't seem right to me. EDIT: Okay, apparently they spell it literally and just pronounce it wrong?????


Underwhelming is a bit of an understatement, since those weapons seem like utter and complete fucking garbage.

Single skill FLBs? What the fuck [expletive deleted].

In regards to rewards, there are no new summons, but instead you get 6 batches of 400 Eidolon Orbs for a total of 2400, which is more than 3 times the amount you would get from selling Lilims. Certainly however, the FLB SSR weapons are pretty terrible compared to current UE rewards. The one good point is that an FLB XL assault weapon will still be better than many other free, dual-skill SSRs that offer something like Assault (M) / Rush (S) or similar variations, it can still serve as an improvement to the grid (though likely not for long-time veterans). Also noteworthy is that Exceed is being made available through Guardian weapons, so that is at least some form of compensation.

[falcontea]

Never had the occasion to read any Christian mythology in Japanese, good to know how they spell throne in that case.

[Too Lazy to Register]

Just in case you didn't know yet, this Assault XL is SL + 9%, only 3% more than Atk L. The old 30% XL that we know before has been reclassed to XXL.

More than doubled the boss hp, at a halved pp gain rate.

All that work for a Single Skill 24% Assault at SL30. Woohoo :Kimoi:

[Slashley]

-- Certainly however, the FLB SSR weapons are pretty terrible compared to current UE rewards. The one good point is that an FLB XL assault weapon will still be better than many other free, dual-skill SSRs that offer something like Assault (M) / Rush (S) or similar variations, it can still serve as an improvement to the grid (though likely not for long-time veterans). --Uuuh. I really doubt that.

Single skill FLB = 15% + base (9% in this case)
Double skill FLB = 15% + 15% + base (usually 3% in event weapons)
Now, for example Crit has only 0.2 value, so it's like 15% + 3% + 3%.

... okay fine, it's not worthless (the Assault weapon that is) but it sure isn't impressive. Assault's value can easily be halved, so it's like... 12% vs. 12%, with the Crit pulling ahead on Grids above 100% Assault (read: all of them) but only with elemental advantage.

[Gludateton]

Uuuh. I really doubt that.

Single skill FLB = 15% + base (9% in this case)
Double skill FLB = 15% + 15% + base (usually 3% in event weapons)
Now, for example Crit has only 0.2 value, so it's like 15% + 3% + 3%.

... okay fine, it's not worthless (the Assault weapon that is) but it sure isn't impressive. Assault's value can easily be halved, so it's like... 12% vs. 12%, with the Crit pulling ahead on Grids above 100% Assault (read: all of them) but only with elemental advantage.
I think he meant non-FLB dual skill weapons.

[Kitty]

awesome thing about the new UE seraph girls is that theres no more of that bullshit fucking rage/stun/rage/stun spam, since her normal mode takes quite a while to get to even rage. gives those who wanna manual a chance to use their rage nukes and stun bursts if need be.
same on both expert and ult.

that much dmg so far and only built up not even half of her mode gauge bar kek
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/314411010301755392/534392975208349696/unknown.png

[Itoshira]

Her normal Mode Gauge is approx. 12m damage long. Couldnt properly test how much is needed to get her into stun though, but it aint fast either.

[Unregistered]

That actually makes stun punishers worse (back to being the trash they normally are outside of UE); they're terrible because of how relatively late into a fight does stun mode usually show up. A short mode gauge means that the opportunity for a stun punisher to be remotely relevant comes up earlier and more often.
If normal mode lasts 10-12 million HP, then raging mode itself won't show up until the 30's (exactly lv 30 if it's a 10 million normal mode bar), without using something like Acala's normal gauge pusher against wind. Assuming rage itselfs lasts for as long as normal, that's another 30+ levels on top of that before stun shows up for the first time, without using any % rage gauge shavers (although those would now be worth potentially millions of HP now if you want to get out of rage asap). And our experience has almost always been that rage lasts noticably longer than normal mode.

Thing is, there's not a lot of depth to Nutaku unions. For ult, a high of ~104-108 gets you to rank in the 90's, ~115-118 gets you to rank in the 80's. For unions in that range, you'll probably only see stun mode show up once, pretty late into the fight, and only if your union's pushing. Otherwise, on non-push days, you probably won't see stun mode.

For expert... how long does the normal mode last? Cause the wiki lists 6 million for raging, but doesn't say for normal. Conversely, I see lv 30 as the minimum for ult to see rage, implying a 10 million HP normal mode, but no numbers for raging.
Anyway, 6 million HP for raging means that a single rage bar lasts 40 levels on its own (as expert's HP is 500k base + 150k per level). So the duration before each instance of stun mode is (however many levels worth of HP normal mode is) + ~40 levels worth of HP for raging. Stun mode would just show up far less frequently compared to the seven sins' "all the damn time".

For rage punishing stuff? *shrug* For them, the times where they're applicable get smushed together from small frequent slices into big chunks like in most non-UE content. And they're still relevant outside of UE, so they're not worried.

[Dejnov]

That actually makes stun punishers worse (back to being the trash they normally are outside of UE); they're terrible because of how relatively late into a fight does stun mode usually show up. A short mode gauge means that the opportunity for a stun punisher to be remotely relevant comes up earlier and more often.
If normal mode lasts 10-12 million HP, then raging mode itself won't show up until the 30's (exactly lv 30 if it's a 10 million normal mode bar), without using something like Acala's normal gauge pusher against wind. Assuming rage itselfs lasts for as long as normal, that's another 30+ levels on top of that before stun shows up for the first time, without using any % rage gauge shavers (although those would now be worth potentially millions of HP now if you want to get out of rage asap). And our experience has almost always been that rage lasts noticably longer than normal mode.

Thing is, there's not a lot of depth to Nutaku unions. For ult, a high of ~104-108 gets you to rank in the 90's, ~115-118 gets you to rank in the 80's. For unions in that range, you'll probably only see stun mode show up once, pretty late into the fight, and only if your union's pushing. Otherwise, on non-push days, you probably won't see stun mode.

For expert... how long does the normal mode last? Cause the wiki lists 6 million for raging, but doesn't say for normal. Conversely, I see lv 30 as the minimum for ult to see rage, implying a 10 million HP normal mode, but no numbers for raging.
Anyway, 6 million HP for raging means that a single rage bar lasts 40 levels on its own (as expert's HP is 500k base + 150k per level). So the duration before each instance of stun mode is (however many levels worth of HP normal mode is) + ~40 levels worth of HP for raging. Stun mode would just show up far less frequently compared to the seven sins' "all the damn time".

For rage punishing stuff? *shrug* For them, the times where they're applicable get smushed together from small frequent slices into big chunks like in most non-UE content. And they're still relevant outside of UE, so they're not worried.


I apologize since I'm still a bit of a newb, but what exactly is a stun punisher type of team? Are there specific skills that you would normally use to take advantage of the easy push to stun from normal union events?


Dejnov.

[Slashley]

I apologize since I'm still a bit of a newb, but what exactly is a stun punisher type of team? Are there specific skills that you would normally use to take advantage of the easy push to stun from normal union events?"Stun punishers" are Hime that have a skill that makes them do stupid amounts of damage when an enemy is under Stun status. Examples of this are Soul Siegfried, SSR Tyr and SR Oceanus.

The problem with Stun punishers are:
1. In most content, by the time you reach Stun, the fight is already over. So what's the point?
2. Even if the fight isn't over yet, this is the phase in the fight where the boss usually is of no threat to you. Why do you want to end this phase early? And not ending it early risks missing out on the huge damage bonus that Stun punishers get.

For this reason, Awakened Tyr is getting reworked into being able to "punish" at any time and not just at Stun. Oceanus, Siegfried and others won't be reworked and will forever be garbage.

[Itoshira]

Siegfried herself wont get a rework, but her Relics will.

Her Assault Relic will let her Raging Nuke proc twice.
Her Defender Hammer gives her Rage Mode-Buff an additional damage buff (30% Normal Atk, 20% Burst) for 2 turns. RIght now I dont know if it counts for all Modes or if it is specifically for Raging. Nevertheless, it helps Dark building a Hammer Grid for example.

People also use Sieg-Based Teams to OTK (One turn kill) Cata Ultimates (mainly Nuke Heavy Teams to put it into Raging and then into Stun). Biggest usage is during the 1-Turn-Dummy Event where Water has proven to be the Element of doing the highest amount of damage possible thanks to Stun-Punisher and heavy buff stacker.
They are niche, yes, but after a certain point of power they become a viable option - and are far from garbage.

[Unregistered]

Sin ultimates or Virtue ultimates? Because I already implied that the Sins are basically the one sort of content in which you can expect stun mode to come up early enough in a fight for a stun punisher to be impactful to your ability to win.

[Itoshira]

With Ultimates I meant the Catastrophe Ultimates. UE Events are plagued by Para, so in theory it doesnt even matter what you bring.

[Slashley]

--
They are niche, yes, but after a certain point of power they become a viable option - and are far from garbage.I don't think that something that is literally only useful in a punching dummy event can be considered anything other than garbage...

[Gludateton]

I don't think that something that is literally only useful in a punching dummy event can be considered anything other than garbage...
Light Nike :rofl:
On a more serious note, something being niche does not mean it's garbage. That mentality may prove fatal in some competitive content. And damn Siegfried with ATK weapon does seem really good for dealing damage in short period of time (double 4~5 nuke at raging, stun burst with 40% echo burst). Is it better than what Herc/Shingen/whatever have to offer ? In most cases not, but in some it may be, and Siegfried is free.

[Unregistered]

Funny enough, because I define 'stun punisher' as the skill as opposed to the character/i] possessing the skill, 'beating raging enemies extra hard' doesn't do anything for my evaluation of 'stun punishers' specifically. What that means for Siegfried is that her 'weight/gameplay value' from a design perspective isn't mostly tied up into her anti-stun buff, unlike Ea ([i]that is what screws characters like her over; offering little outside of a very flawed mechanic). Buffing her anti-raging stuff can be nice. They can elevate Siegfried depending on what you're looking for. Doesn't change that 'stun punisher' as a class of skills/specific mechanic is usually utterly fucked by the enemy design xP

[Slashley]

Light Nike :rofl:Light Nike can be useful in GO and AQ5. I assume that means also AQ6 and AQ7, but I haven't looked into those. Meanwhile, I don't think that Stun punishers are useful in any of the four GOs I know of so far, and in AQ5 they can only be used in... Fire, Water and Wind wave2.
On a more serious note, something being niche does not mean it's garbage. --Stun punishers CAN do massive amounts of damage since the modifier is usually extremely high and in a (almost) unique modifier (doesn't stack with Berserk). But again, since in just about all content there is no point in them since you've already won when you reach Stun, what's the point? Why not use something that'll actually help you win?

[Unregistered]

Meanwhile, I don't think that Stun punishers are useful in any of the four GOs I know of so far, and in AQ5 they can only be used in... Fire, Water and Wind wave2.Stun punishers CAN do massive amounts of damage since the modifier is usually extremely high and in a (almost) unique modifier (doesn't stack with Berserk). But again, since in just about all content there is no point in them since you've already won when you reach Stun, what's the point? Why not use something that'll actually help you win?


Light Nike can be useful in GO and AQ5. I assume that means also AQ6 and AQ7, but I haven't looked into those. Meanwhile, I don't think that Stun punishers are useful in any of the four GOs I know of so far, and in AQ5 they can only be used in... Fire, Water and Wind wave2.Stun punishers CAN do massive amounts of damage since the modifier is usually extremely high and in a (almost) unique modifier (doesn't stack with Berserk). But again, since in just about all content there is no point in them since you've already won when you reach Stun, what's the point? Why not use something that'll actually help you win?

Awesome for F14 Tower.
2nd Boss 50% Trigger... get her in rage, let her kill your meatshield, she will go in stun.
Meatshield is dead = Stun KH from sub will come and do her job.

[Gludateton]

I don't think that Stun punishers are useful in any of the four GOs I know of so far
Present GO batch has one stage with enemy that has rage bar, so it is pretty bad. For next GO batch stages 3-5 have enemies with rage bar. Will stun punishers be useful there ? Doubt it, but we'll see.

and in AQ5 they can only be used in... Fire, Water and Wind wave2
That's half of AQs though ? Okay, that's only stage 2, so it's not terribly useful indeed.

But again, since in just about all content there is no point in them since you've already won when you reach Stun
Hold on, define this "just about all content", because aside from Light present Ragnarok raids have stun phase 'pretty early'. Raid events also very often have stun phase before end of fight.

Also for me "niche use" means that something is less than optimal in most cases, but in some it may be the best option.

[Unregistered]

I can kind of agree on Catastrophe raids, as the majority of them see stun at least twice.
I would not agree with raid events. They're usually normal->raging->stun->normal, possibly a bit of raging round 2 if shavers were used in raging #1. Otherwise, by the time you hit stun, you've already gone through the bulk of the threat the fight poses.
Unless you're arguing less for materially affecting odds of victory and more for something else, like using a stun punisher to yank away MVP. Then there's enough remaining HP for that to be possible in some cases.

[Slashley]

That's half of AQs though ? Okay, that's only stage 2, so it's not terribly useful indeed.Yup, the problem with AQ5 isn't Wave2 but Wave3. I don't think it's possible to get caught on Wave2 if you're able to clear Wave3, which is... not excellent design.
Hold on, define this "just about all content", because aside from Light present Ragnarok raids have stun phase 'pretty early'.Humm, I don't have written data on Ult Disasters... Out of memory:
Fire Stuns once. Because he'll never Rage again, it's not useful there.
Water could be useful, as it Stuns multiple times. Have fun hitting your Stun punisher into a 100% damage cut though, huehuehuehuehuehuehuehueheu public raids are cancer thanks devs
Wind could be useful, again Stuns multiple times. Also, as debuff immune content, this is exactly the kind of content where extra modifiers - such as Stun punishers - can shine. Uuuh, who is the Fire Stun punisher again? ... devs? ... hello? :neutral:
Thunder has the shortest Stun period of anything I've ever seen (what the hell is it, like 1%?), but if you're soloing, you can make it work.
Light doesn't Stun without some SERIOUS shenanigans (https://i.imgur.com/Q3vBXmE.png). Even if it does, it doesn't matter since you just won.
Dark could be useful. Stun punishers always last one turn, so it's not like you'll get Dispelled or anything.

So 4/6, in theory at least. Which isn't bad if you're struggling with them, actually.
Raid events also very often have stun phase before end of fight.I guess that's useful for the Raid Ticket solo quests. Aside from that, there's little reason to ever solo them - and if you don't solo, it's quite difficult to time your punisher right. Kamihime has never been very good at being precise with information presented to you in raids, and now that half the time you don't even see the messages anymore... ...

[Itoshira]

Right now only Light Disaster has the unique Mode Gauge size of basically 50% her HP being a full gauge. Fire and Dark have a fairly large Mode Gauge aswell, but can still get into Stun 2 times during one fight.

But, the major thing to keep in mind is, that I specifically said "after a certain point in power" she is viable. To clarify this more: Sieg specifically needs help to make use of her full potential, which is not an option if it already takes you 10 turns to get something into raging. Same goes for the Punch Dummy. If you dont have a proper setup, you gonna fall short, rarly overshoot though. The extra hit from her Assault Relic helps her keeping better control over Rage Gauges. The extra Buff from her Hammer helps out for regular usage to provide more party wide offense.

Siegfried is not a Soul that works by herself as the likes of Arthur or Herc. She needs more thought in her usage aswell as some support. She is by no means something for a beginner to pick up, I'd even say she isnt something a semi-veteran should pick up, but for veterans (meaning, proper understanding and knowledge of the games mechanics) and high-power caliber players, she might be exactly what they want to make more out of what they already have.

Public raids are often enough a problem due to either having the lack of information about the bosses status (bug that doesnt update normal-rage-stun properly) or to many people that it lags heavily (or the fight is just outright over before anything major has been done).

[Pigeon]

Siegfried, Ea and Oceanus are sick.

https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm34127924

[Slashley]

--
Siegfried is not a Soul that works by herself as the likes of Arthur or Herc. --Arthur works by herself?!

... well, I guess being able to be PF effortlessly is something...
Siegfried, Ea and Oceanus are sick.

https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm34127924Notice that this guy is reaching 2m with all characters - not just Stun punishers. That means that these numbers are not something realistic you can ever expect to reach.

At least now I understand why is Water the strongest one in the dummy event. Indeed, when you reach the soft-damage cap and Berserk doesn't work, there's literally only one way forward. And Water is the only one (that I can think of) that has two Stun punishers.

[Unregistered]

That looks more like echo bursts here than the stun punisher skills themselves.

Particularly, the 1 million for Ea's echo burst impresses me, as that works at 200% + burst_damage_buffs. Keep in mind that it does not benefit from the stun punisher buff.
Actually, Lakshmi's echo burst is also impressive, as that thing is supposed to soft cap at 450k I think o.o

[Itoshira]

Arthur works by herself?!

She doesnt need any support to do high damage thanks to insta burst and having a decent nuke. Besides her Atk buff. Solomon is the same, can deal noticable damage by herself without the needs of someone else (this doesnt mean that with more support they can do more, just considering their own kit).
Shingen for example is better in use of the whole party, since she has 2 buffs and her Abi 1 is not a Nuke that stands out with high damage numbers. Andromeda & Joan are also in the same boat, just on the defensive side of things.

[Slashley]

That looks more like echo bursts here than the stun punisher skills themselves.Oceanus - an SR - would've Bursted for 5m damage if cap wouldn't be a thing.

But yeah, echo sure helps.

[Itoshira]

On regards to the video:

It should be noted that Isis gave 4/5 members a Vigor buff which is an insane buff when it comes to bursts. It doesnt work like an Atk buff as it has a far higher impact on your damage increase. Basically, if you have a 30% Vigor buff, you are literally doing 30% more effective damage. Which is obviously lowering the needed power to reach the burst cap. It also effects the Burst damage buff, so it's effect is insane.
That's why Ea for example didnt need it, since she is using a Stun Punish she reaches cap already, but it helps anyone else that doesnt instantly reaches it.
Also, Atum is working slightly differently then right now for Taco. She does increase the Ability Damage cap aswell as the general attack damage cap.
Usually, Sieg wont reach 1.1m damage with her nuke. Her Burst is also over the usual Burst cap, which lets her reach 2.8m (I think her cap at that point would be around 2.2 - 2.3m).
This is a pretty precise setup and if something doesnt go right, it instantly falls apart (that's why Isis and Atum have to die).
Another note is that Echo has a softcap aswell, so it can go beyond it. Same rules as usual that every damage beyond is reduced by 90%.

[Unregistered]

Here's a thought/question: given such an absurdly long rage gauge (6 million HP for expert, who knows what for ult, but most likely not shorter than 10 million), at what power level does Siegfried actually surpass Gilgamesh strictly in terms of getting through the rage gauge?
It's basically a question of when does 2 (elem atk relic) * 4.0-5.0 (overdrive's multiplier against raging) * 1.15 (I think that's Morale Boost's multiplier for shredding rage gauge?) every 6 turns (plus 40% echo burst if you're bursting during rage) surpass a single 3.0-4.0 (Gilgamesh's anti-rage nuke) + 20% current rage gauge shave every 6 turns? Assuming the ex slot isn't something from each other, so no Siegfried with Eternal Snake here, or Gilgamesh with Overdrive.

[Slashley]

-- 20% current rage gauge shave every 6 turns? --That'd be the problem. While the first 20% will be amazing, they'll start to be less and less amazing quite fast.

[Cobblemaniac]

Here's a thought/question: given such an absurdly long rage gauge (6 million HP for expert, who knows what for ult, but most likely not shorter than 10 million), at what power level does Siegfried actually surpass Gilgamesh strictly in terms of getting through the rage gauge?
It's basically a question of when does 2 (elem atk relic) * 4.0-5.0 (overdrive's multiplier against raging) * 1.15 (I think that's Morale Boost's multiplier for shredding rage gauge?) every 6 turns (plus 40% echo burst if you're bursting during rage) surpass a single 3.0-4.0 (Gilgamesh's anti-rage nuke) + 20% current rage gauge shave every 6 turns? Assuming the ex slot isn't something from each other, so no Siegfried with Eternal Snake here, or Gilgamesh with Overdrive.

The very short answer is...

You won't be using either to kill boss in late game either way.

Siegfried only reappears in spacewhale endgame, and even then I'm not sure it's good for massive HP bosses.

[Unregistered]

Of course you're not actually use them for serious play; it's more of a thought exercise/gimmick.

[Dejnov]

But you can use Eternal Serpent (20% rage cut) on Hercules with Chernobog's Groom Wrap (30% rage cut) on Light Ragnarok to take it down to 56% of the rage bar on the first turn of raging.

All it takes is the EX slot in a dark team (and using Chernobog of course, which I already do). Thanks for the suggestion/idea!!


Dejnov.