Kamihime - the journey of the first 2.5 years

[Slashley]

So, you know, I'm supposed to be updating the Encyclopedia about now. Or making my Light Tower plans. But this idea has been in my head for the last few days, so fuck it, let's make this thread instead of being productive!


Now, I'm not going to say that what I write here is objective. This is what the game has been like for the first 2.5 years in my eyes. You know what they say, "opinions are like assholes - everyone has one." Don't agree with something? Cool. Post your thoughts on the matter.

Now then, I'm going to split this post into multitudes of "eras", which overlap with each other. Because Kamihime can be a surprisingly complex game and there quite a few layers to it.100From a gameplay perspective
The Era of Sol, from launch (Feb 2017) to roughly June 2018?
So here is the thing about early Kamihime content. Bosses could only attack or do a special attack during their turn, but the latter was very rare. I can only think of (fucking) Medusa (April 2017). And (fucking) Medusa probably put the devs off from such behavior that we didn't see all that much of it.

So, this means that the only things that you really had to in Kamihime was Overdrive control. Bosses had normal Overdrives and Rage Overdrives, and that was it. That, by itself, made the game quite complex. Like we had bosses whose Overdrives were nothing special but Combo attacked a lot, and we had bosses like Python which has massive amounts of Orbs and whose Rage Overdrive WOULD kill you - so you had to pace yourself to NOT Rage her before Overdrive and kill her before the second Overdrive. Cool. But, we can really simplify what boss Overdrives did into three things:
1. The boss would deal damage.
2. The boss would buff itself (like Rahab).
3. The boss would debuff your team.

The thing is... Sol handled ALL of that. Lost HP? Sol could heal you. Boss would buff itself and threaten to one-shot you? Sol could Dispel that. Boss debuffs your Def? Or debuffs you with Doom (hi Dullahan!)? Sol can Cleanse that. If you had trouble with ANY content, you could just splash an off-element Sol into there, and bam. Problems be gone. It also didn't help that until January 2018, there no was no cap on Atk debuff. Sol would allow you to reach -60% Atk - sometimes even -70% with Jormungand! - cutting the amount of damage you take by a stupid margin. Remember, going from -40% to -70% means taking HALF damage from what you take at -40%, so more powerful than a Joan would be if she had 1 turn CD on her Damage Cut!!! And, it was technically possible to reach above -100% Atk with some meme builds... which would result on enemies HEALING you when attacking you. Yeah, that was a thing. Really.

Now, these days, the idea of bringing an off-element Hime is cringeworthy. But, you have to remember that back then, teams weren't highly synergistic. You had a few good Hime per element in the entire game, and if you had them, cool. But with the limited power levels per Hime back then and the limited pool of Hime, dropping your worst one for Sol was not a problem at all. However, as the Hime pool increased, synergy levels inside teams surged and combined with Hime powercreep, that slowly started to become a problem. Yet, that progress wasn't so fast to end Sol's Era. What did end it... was Triggers. I don't remember was Ult Water (June 2018) the first Trigger boss in the game, it could've also been Tiamat (April 2018) or Amaru (May 2018). I'm too lazy to check the Kitty threads of these events. But either way, this ushered Kamihime into:

The Era of Trigger bosses, from roughly June 2018 to probably forever
At the very least, Ult Water was one of the first Trigger bosses. Triggers enable bosses to do anything at any time, vastly expanding the horizons for how content works. In addition to the same variety in Overdrives, bosses can now get really pissed off if you debuff them, or do a special thing when they Rage, or do a special thing when they go low HP, or do a special thing when you use an ability of a specific color... or all of the above at the same time, if the devs really want to fuck with you.

Honestly? As long as it is not overdone (like at Ult Water), it's great. It keeps the content fresh as long as the devs bother to be creative with the boss abilities. The only problem is lack of communication. Like the current raid event boss Hoder basically ENDS YOU if you use any buffing abilities (yellow). But not many people even know that... because the game doesn't tell you WHY the Trigger happened! You either have to read it up in Kitty's thread or go to DMM wiki and hope that Google translate makes any kind of fucking sense out of the moonrunes. And that honestly sucks. But I don't think that any change is coming for that, so we'll just have to make do.100From a buff/debuff perspective

Early on, buffs were pathetic. I mean, if we look at the launch Hime, you have stuff like Shiva who gives +20% Assault to your team for 3/5 turns, OR Satan who gives -15% Def with 7/7 turns uptime. To make matters worse, Shiva's buff is Assault, which you can get from your Grid - ten SR weapons would get you to 130%. At this point, Shiva's buff gives you... 8% more damage output. And considering uptime, it's basically a 5% damage increase - and only gets worse as you get SSR weapons. Meanwhile, Satan is at least 15% more damage and if you're also running -20% B, it's 18% more damage. That's almost FOUR TIMES BETTER. And I'm being nice here and comparing Shiva to Satan rather than SSR Amon with her -25%! The point is, buffs in general were all like this - budgeted to fucking shit. They were simply not really part of the equation for a long, long, looooong time in Kamihime's perspective and thus you won't see me talking about them until the very end of this section.

The Era of -40% Def, from launch (Feb 2017) to Feb 2018
Despite debuffs being THE thing, Early on Kamihime simply didn't have very many debuffs available to you. Really, Souls were your best source for them thanks to Gawain's Ambush (-20% A) and Dartagnan's Sniper Shot (-20% B). Sure, there were SOME sources of reaching -50% such as Cthulhu (April 2017), Wrath Bow burst effect (November 2017) and SSR Tsukuyomi (December 2017), they were few and limited to specific Hime that you probably didn't have. And in the case of SSR Tsukuyomi, even limited to a single element!

But, one thing snuck into the game's Exchange Store without anyone noticing. And this post by some unregistered person (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/2974-kamihime-discussion-post105555.html#post105555) changed everything.
Side note: You can read my initial reaction to it on the next page, post 2920. Ah yes, history gold right there!

The Era of Vine, from Feb 2018 to June 2018
Want to reach -50% Def? Don't worry baby, Vine is here to save the day. She came into the game with the addition of the Dark storyline (which remains the final storyline to this day even on DMM I believe), but nobody noticed. Since all the previous SR Eidolons from the storyline were shit. But Vine? This baby had -10% Def Eidolon/weapon frame and a hitrate to back it up! NEVER missing with VoF up and almost never even without. And even available to EVERYONE! Sure, the base stats were sorely lacking, but going from -40% to -50% Def was a whopping 16% increase. And that makes all the difference.

In addition to more Hime who can help reach that elusive -50% were coming out (such as Mars (March 2018), Thanatos (April 2018) and Mammon (June 2018)) - they might not have the same availability like Vine did, but they were there - but what ended Vine's era was Herc's Axe (combined with Herc buffs that turned her into a beast), and by June 2018 not all Ults were even out yet. So honestly, I'm cutting this era short by quite a lot. In reality, it was a lot longer.

Regardless, the game moved on to:
The Era of -50%, from June 2018 to forever?
Hercules with her Soul weapon finally gave everyone relatively easy access to -50% Def. All you need is 120 Regalia and you can have -25% Def. Back then you could trade 20 Regalia per month from Fragments, so even newbies could gain 127 Regalia per month by hosting and being carried by a Union mate (30*3 Regalia from Host bonus = 90, 30*9 Fragments from Vice MVP = 270 Fragments, translates into 100 for 5 each = 20 and 170 for 10 each = 17, so 90+20+17 per month = 127!). And a mere month is NOT a long time in Kamihime.

Since Herc's Axe was -25% and Vine was -10%, and both being the same frame, Vine was starting to become obsolete. Rest in piece, buddy. You did good, you did really good.

And ever since, you should basically always run -50% Def teams. All you need is Hercules and one or two Hime. Sure there are exceptions, like MVP hunting raid teams, but.


And then finally... let's have a side note about buffs.
As time progresses, there has been some serious power creep with Hime. Now, sure, debuffs have gained SOME powercreep as well. There are multiple -30% Def Hime now, but ALL of them are for their own element only. But more important, buffs have been gaining some serious fucking shit lately. For example, my Shiva example up above? Shiva's Awakening recently buffed her to +30% Assault +20% Elemental +Crit (like 25% chance of +25% damage or something). Sure that's still 3/5 uptime, but that's still wayyyy more in line with debuffs now. In addition, one thing I've noticed is that buffs from Bursting are a thing now, and these are budgeted wayyyy wrong. For example, Cu Awakened gets a +45%ish Triple buff for 3 turns after Burst. And each Triple attack gives her 10% Special for 10 turns. Fast Wind teams can Burst every 3-4 turns I'd say, which kinda makes... Cu absolutely insane! And she's not the only one. Honestly, Burst effects are basically budgeted as if the game was still about needing 8 turns per Full Burst, but even Tiara Set Bonus has made that a thing of ancient history.

In the future, I'm pretty sure that the game will keep powercreeping buffs. And most importantly, keep introducing extremely powerful Burst buffs. Maybe if I were to remake this post around the 3.5 years marker (where DMM is today), I'd need to cut off the "Era of -50%" into "Era of buffs" at some point. For now though, I don't see a reason for it.100From a Soul perspective
The Era of Harmony, from launch (Feb 2017) to June 2018
In a gacha game that wants to be serious, how do you ensure that players have at least basic tools on their hands? Like buffs, or debuffs, or heals, or damage cuts, or... any tools, really? When you can't rely on players have any specific Hime, yet you want to give them CHOICES and OPTIONS so that they can actually PLAY the game (I'm looking at you, Otogi)? In other words, let's talk about Souls - the one thing that probably hooked me into Kamihime.

As I mentioned previously, debuffs were the name of the game and Souls were your primary source of them. Sure, if you had the perfect team, you probably didn't need them for those. But let's face it, most people didn't have perfect teams back then and still don't today!

And thus, the most likely Souls to be run were Gawain (yes, T2 Soul!) with Sniper Shot, or Dartagnan with Ambush. Both of whom would reach -40% Def by themselves. If you had a Hime with a strong A or B debuff, you could run... well, basically anyone and compliment that one with Ambush or Sniper Shot. Mordred was a popular choice due to having BP and also VoF, but Joan saw plenty of use as well. Hell, there was even a (short) time period where people would run (Gilgamesh/)Siegfried and try snipe MVP in event Raids by slamming a big one during Stun. Cassiopeia also saw plenty of use thanks to her Dispel, while Andromeda wasn't used all that much - why run her when you can run Cass with Dispel AND a debuff? Really, the only Soul tree that didn't any use was Solomon, due to being a piece of useless shit.

Morgan was added in November 2017, and didn't see much use. Hell, Morgan only sees use today in some Berserk meme builds, which can be powerful but require her Soul weapon and a proper team to support it. Hercules was Added to Nutaku in December 2017, and was a useless piece of garbage - with her weak self-buffs with 3/7 turn uptimes and her weak nuke (if I remember right), she was literally only there for you to get some Master bonuses from. Shingen entered the fray in January 2018 and was instantly a big hit. Provisional Forest was a huge game changer and allowed for some serious spike damage. But, Shingen couldn't reliably use this ability on her own - she needed help from the team. +5 burst was all that was required and Shingen could safely Burst along with the team. This limitation meant that Shingen didn't entirely overtake the meta, and there was a still wide range of different Souls being used in the game.

This is what I mean by "Era of Harmony" - with the few exceptions of useless pieces of shit like Solomon and Hercules, all Soul trees were seeing use. Sure, Siegs were rare and Morgan's niche was extremely small, but even without them that's still 6/10 Soul trees in use. Things started to change in March 2018 with the introduction of Soul weapons. Gawain was the first victim, since right off the bat Dartagnan with Ambush could now provide -50% Def just by herself! Sure it was a HP weapon, but that was still serious shit at the time. What truly ended the Era of Harmony however... was Hercules' Soul weapon.

The Era of Hercules and Shingen, from June 2018 to August 2020?
Some time before this (past Slashley, why the fuck did you not write that exact date down?), Herc got some serious reworking. Her buffs were increased by a ton and their uptime was increased to 5/7 turns. And I think her now iconic nuke was notably buffed as well, though I forget did they increase the damage cap or scaling per buff (past Slashley, why the fuck did you not write that shit down?) or... well, whatever. This alone made her perfectly viable and she joined the Age of Harmony for a short time, but what broke the camel's back... was her Axe. Now, before this, all Soul weapons basically followed a simple rule: HP weapons have good effects, but offensive weapons are generally better despite having a shitty effect. Hercules however... got it the other way around. Her GOOD ability was in the OFFENSIVE weapon. AND there was that mother. Fucking. -25% Fucking. Def. Debuff. On that fucking thing as well. So let's have a look at this:

1. Massive buffs to her abilities.
2. Offensive Soul weapon has good ability.
3. Extremely strong Def debuff on Burst.
Now, if you were a sensible game developer, you'd go "Hmm... pick one!"
Any single one of these would've been enough to bring Hercules to the Era of Harmony, but no, they went and gave Hercules ALL FUCKING THREE. As such, Hercules very quickly ended the one Era and just replaced everything. It was now Hercules, Hercules, Hercules. Hell, there wasn't any reason to run Shingen anymore, since Herc's Axe allowed her to use PF without any help from the team! AND still providing a motherfucking Debuff thanks to her Axe!

In August 2018, Shingen and Morgan got their Soul weapons, and they also got their offensive Soul weapons to be the better ability. Morgan became much more viable, but sadly, the Era of Harmony was long over and she had no chance to compete with Hercules. Shingen, however, now no longer needed the help of her team to make use out of PF. This meant that Shingen started to show up a bit, generally being more team focused and having a EX slot free while still bringing PF.

February 2019 brought forth some serious changes, with the MP system. Souls could now be upgraded. The winners of this change? Solomon! She was now actually good and would certainly have joined the fray if the Era of Harmony was still a thing, but it was far too late for that. So she continues to be reduced to being just a Tower slave, something she was already doing since the first Tower event in December 2018. The second winner? Shingen. Thanks to Encourage Inspiration, Shingen's EX slot could now hold an extremely powerful boost to the team rather than a debuff. This DOES mean that the team has to provide the -50% Def debuffs entirely. But as this is already 2019, the options for that from Hime have increased drastically - even some SR Hime had C frames or Elem Res- buffs at this point.

So, the point where we are currently? It's just Hercules for basically everyone, and the very perfected teams use Shingen who has higher potential, IF your team can support her. Which I think is dumb. Age of Harmony was just much more interesting than "Oh, Hercules goes into EVERY TEAM LUL!!1"

Anyway, T4 Souls are coming up later. All of them are really powerful, but thanks to their extreme cost, from the first batch you only want T4 Solomon. Second batch is coming August 2020-ish, containing T4 Hercules and especially T4 Shingen who are ludicrously strong and will most likely utterly dominate the meta... ... IF you can afford them. Good luck with that! The requirements for that shit is really, really, REALLY DUMB! I'm looking at you, 350 story drops, 150 SR books, 80 SSR books, 10 Advent Rag Cores, 4m Gems, 150 T3 Crystals, 1050 T4 Crystals, 1500 T2 Cores, 1800 Fangs, 900 Regalia, 300 Magnas, 300 Olympia Globes, 15 Orihalcums, 7 Dragon Eye, 3000 Eidolon Orbs, 3000 Soul Points and... 4000 Och raids (coming April 2020). Not sure about the Och raids. But yeah. HAVE. FUN. WITH. THAT. This is per Soul, if getting all six elements..100From a Events perspective
I... don't actually have much to say about this. This has been kinda covered already by the Sol section. Just to recap:

The game started with Advents, then soon came up with Raids. Then re-printed Advents a lot (especially on Nutaku, since they needed to get the game in sync with the DMM release so that we wouldn't get x-mas events in November). The first Union event happened in July 2017, and the first Union event with actual rewards in it happened in September 2017. Until October 2017 you needed to find one SSR weapon and one SSR Eidolon from Raid Gacha Tickets, which SUCKED. April 2018 saw a giant nerf to Raid requirements, making them WAY less grindy than before. June 2018 saw a giant nerf to Advent requirements, making them WAYYYY less grindy. Bi-monthly Tower events started December 2018. Skill Checker-kun events started to roll in August 2019. In the future, guessing dates: Final Union Demon event in December 2019, first Angel Union event (warning! Shitty rewards!) and first Labyrinth event in January 2020 (warning! The first one will be GRINDYYYYY!).

December 2017 brought forth the first "permanent event", Accessory Quests. March 2018 brought the first of Ultimate Disaster (then called "Ragnarok" thanks to some serious short-sightedness from the devs). Guild Orders started to run in August 2018. AQ5 came in December 2018. April 2019 brought the first real Ragnarok Disasters. More permanent events are coming up, to name a few with guesses to their implementation: first Olympia raids and AQ6 October 2019, Epic Quests (old Raid events) in November 2019, AQ7 in December 2019.100From a Grid perspective
The Era of 16%, from launch (Feb 2017) to November 2017
SSR Weapons basically either had 16% HP (and were useless) or 16% Assault. Simple, but boring and really shitty if you had like two months of events with HP weapons in a row. Yes, that fucking happened. No, nobody was happy.
And yes, Prides were added into the game somewhere in there, but they're effectively Assault weapons, so no need to mention specifics.

The goal at this point was to have 10x SSR Assault weapons in your Grid, so 160% Assault. Not that anyone but omega whales reached that.

The Era of 23%, from November 2017 to June 2018
Sphinx brought the first dual-skill weapon to everyone, paving way to the glorious era of dual-skill weapons with her 13% Assault AND 10% HP weapon. Wow! I believe there HAD been some dual-skills before - as Hime release weapons. But since those weren't available to all, it wasn't such a hallmark.

The goal at this point was to have 10x SSR Assault/HP weapons in your Grid, so 130% Assault and 100% HP. Not that anyone but omega whales reached that.

The Era of "what the fuck is this shit?", from June 2018 to September 2018
At this point, Illuyankas introduced to us lots of new things that can be in our weapons - not just Assault or Pride or HP, but also wonderful things like Elaborate - the one thing worse than a fucking full HP weapon! The devs had realized that if they kept giving us good weapons, things would soon get pretty stale. So, it was time to dilute the pool with garbage!

The goal at this point was still to have 9x SSR Assault/HP weapons in your Grid, so 117% Assault and 90% HP, and one Soul weapon. Not that anyone but omega whales reached that.

Well, it wasn't ALL bad news. Exceed also came out of this, increasing Burst damage cap from 1m to 2m... ... if you could somehow get your hands on those weapons. Which you didn't. Until...

The Era of FLBs, from September 2018 to forever?
Phoenix reprint introduced FLBs to us, increasing the goal to 21% Assault and 15% HP per weapon. And more importantly... Union events now started to give Exceed weapons. And they no longer will after Angel Union events start, because the devs realized that they were giving out too much good shit. So if you didn't play the game when the Demon Union events ran with Exceed weapons, GET FUCKED SON.

So the ultimate goal now was 9x FLB Assault/HP/Exceed weapons, and one Soul weapon. Thus 189% Assault and 90-120% HP, with 1-3 Exceeds. This certainly isn't the ultimate, ULTIMATE goal since there are fun stuff like triple skill weapons too, or double Assault weapons. These are pretty much Hime exclusive weapons, but thanks to Tower events, bricks can be used. In short, there is way, WAY more variation in Grids now, which is good.

And finally, as a subnote (because they DON'T deserve any better!) are Phantom weapons which you could get - at a very low chance - since April 2019. So the ultimate, ULTIMATE goal is to have a 8x FLB Assault/HP/Exceed weapons of Lance/Hammer/Glaive/Bow type, all of them being triple skills or at least double Assault. And then one Phantom weapon of that type and one Soul weapon. Good luck with that, buddy.100What does the future hold?
Honestly, we're reaching a point in Kamihime where the DMM devs clearly cut back on production values. We have been getting and are going to be getting a lot more "continuous content" like AQs and GOs which we need to farm ad-infinitum, rather than weekly events. Those will still roll around, though, at a slightly slower pace it seems. Also, expect way more Limited Edition Hime, as the majority of the upcoming Hime are just new versions of the Hime we already have. Between now and January 2020 - including the current Fire Frey - there are 11 SSR Hime coming up. Out of which SEVEN are Limited. SIX are new versions of already existing Hime. And did I mention that soon, we won't have new Hime whenever a new event starts? Yeah, those are being toned down to every 1st and 15th of each month. No more, no less.

With less new Hime designs and less Hime in general, production values have clearly been cut. Which is worrisome. Fear not though, I'm sure that all of those new Hime will be OP as fuck. Oh wait, since in Nutaku we don't get new Hime with Jewels, I guess that's a reason to fear. After all, in the upcoming year, all the upgrades that we have coming are Olympia raids (providing us with a pretty strong new main Eidolon for all elements, assuming you don't have a P2W Eidolon for that element) and T4 Souls. That is if you can afford those T4 Souls, because FUCK YOU.

So yeah. The future of Kamihime does worry me. If you look at the Grid section, you'll notice that slowly but surely Grids made players more and more powerful over the past 2.5 years - veterans are now reaching full event FLB Grids across the board (except Fire, because fuck Fire). However, the main source of new power from now on - the new Hime - are effectively cut off from us in Nutaku. That's... not good.

It also doesn't help how Kamihime has a serious issue with new blood. Seriously, the game HINGES on you either having played for two years now, OR having to spend tens of thousands of dollars for a proper Grid. That does NOT invite new people into the game. There seriously NEEDS to be some SERIOUS catch-up mechanics, and although DMM has implemented some over the past year (our upcoming year, such as Epic Quests) they simply are NOT anywhere near enough.100So yeah. That's my take of the last 2.5 years. Honestly? I could've written a lot more. Like, I didn't even touch Gacha changes, or how Miracle Tickets changed the game. I wonder what else did I not mention?

And if you've actually read all of that... well, good job? All purchases are final, no refunds.

[tyu]

Interesting read + nostalgia. Really gives you the feeling that Kamipro is getting old. I'll be switching over to Unitia if it ever gets a translation.

[QXZ]

i did read that from beginning to end. well done bro.

i m not too concerned about future, since KHP is still a highly ranked game in Japan. so developments will continue.
in regards to catchup mechanic, it seems like the devs are rolling out extremely high requirements on initial release, then either nerf the requirement or buff the drop rates to help newer players catch up. also they are adding more shops and more items in those shops, so catching up is a lot easier i think. that doesnt necessarily mean reaching par - but getting a viable wpn grid is now a matter of just grinding enuf mats.

[Chrestomancy]

Really interesting to me. I’ve been in since Nutaku-launch, but completely half-assed until DraPro died, end of last year. I have a maxed out Vine, all element Herc weapons, at least 1 exceed for each element and am slowly moving towards Shingen bows in all elements. So I’ve never quite been using the meta, as I have never quite caught up to the leading edge, but I’ve been aware of some of the more recent history.

What you’ve put here though goes into so much more detail. I remember the early trigger bosses, and not understanding why I was being wrecked until finding a post here. Honestly the way they run this game, it is like there are two games - the one for people who want to deduce wtf the bosses do, and the rest of us who need to trawl out of game resources to get a clue. I’m fine with that tbh, reading posts here keeps me more engaged in the game, especially since I’m not on Discord for KH.

And that’s always been an odd factor for me in KH. Social tools here are absolute bare bones. Sure, everybody has always used external stuff even on games that support exists for chat etc, but newbie players often only use the built in stuff. Unions who don’t have a leader prepared to maintain external content just die. I doubt that is going to change, but I wonder what the design decision on that was.

[Mraktar]

I'm looking at you, 350 story drops, 150 SR books, 80 SSR books, 10 Advent Rag Cores, 4m Gems, 150 T3 Crystals, 1050 T4 Crystals, 1500 T2 Cores, 1800 Fangs, 900 Regalia, 300 Magnas, 300 Olympia Globes, 15 Orihalcums, 7 Dragon Eye, 3000 Eidolon Orbs, 3000 Soul Points and... 4000 Och raids (coming April 2020). Not sure about the Och raids. But yeah. HAVE. FUN. WITH. THAT. This is per Soul, if getting all six elements.

1) about labyrinth event - don't forget, that labyrinth gives 3 ssr weapons, 2 garbage and 3-rd - triple skill flb-able, next labyrinth (october? will be less grindy + auto progress should be enabled)
2) to get t4 soul you must do 4 fixed quests + 5-th is soul weapon upgrade, you need to do it once to get a soul, other weapons are optional. To get a soul you need a 1m gems, 7x50 story items (wait for 1/2 ap event and spend a day for it), 10 advent orbs, 30 sr books, 20 ssr books, 3k eydo orbs, 6x150 fangs, 150 t3 crystals ,2 books (100 pages each), 15 ori (you can easy trade 20 per month for shards + go+ many other sources), 150 t4 crystals (worth nothing after raid rework, nutaku will get it this winter), 250x6 t2 idea cores (this and fangs are most terrifying things in this grindfest), 1 dragon orb, 6x150 regalas. For weapon upgrade you need a soul weapon 125/20 (120 regalias), 3 books, 500 sp/hsp, 1 dragon orb, 20 sr books, 10 ssr books, 150 fangs, 50 ragnarok items, 50 olympia items, 500k gems. Result - flb-ed t4 soul weapon, lvl/slvl are set to 1, + value is carried over, and this:

13014

You don't need to have soul weapons for each element, maybe sometimes later.
About t4 souls- it's my personal opinion, but if you use t3 Shingen, t4 should be a first priority after she wil be released in second wave. T4 Herc didn't impressed me much, Joan and Andy became much, much stronger, so if you need them - you will not regret. I would say, that Asclepius should be second/ third soul. About damagers - I like Medea very much (t4 Solomon), much more then t4 Herc (she has elem resist debuff if you can't reach a cap). Wave 1 - Arthur, Joan, Andy, Solomon, Sieg. Wave 2 - the rest. And yes, you will never use t3 souls after unlock of t4 ones. So prepare to grind a lot and try to collect as many mats as possible nowdays.

P.S. You forgot about 1 more milestone that changed the game - tiara sets, they are so absurdly strong.
p.p.s. t4 soul with no relic weapon >> t3 with relic. For example, Solomon's s1 is 450-500% nuke, Medea's is 1000%, Medea's 6 element nuke becomes aoe, or if we should look at Shingen, t3 buff is 2/8 (25% uptime) of 15 data/10 tata, t4 has 3/7 (42% uptime) of 25% data/15% tata/30% bg gain up, or t4's PF doesn't consume bg so we have no problem with FB etc. And I didn't mentioned that t4 souls have 3 variants of s2 and s3 so DMM lives in t4 souls era now (mainly t4 Shingen, then Andy, then Solomon, sometimes Joan, other are rarely/never seen in raids).

[th3 fr4gil3]

DMM has just added weekly rotating Advents, starting with Typhon.
also don't knock Epic Raids, with it's help i have full SSR dark/water grids now and fire is pretty close, Dark is fully leveled/slvled/+99 only lacking FLB weaps, not bad for 6 months without using jewel gatcha or tix.

[Geo]

What does it mean "you can't get new himes on Nutaku with Jewels"?

Is it truly a feature, or just you overreacting to the bad luck of not getting a new SSR?

EDIT: Also, I think the Souls Eras were an interesting read, but I feel we are more in a "100% Eidolon or FU" Era.

[Slashley]

What does it mean "you can't get new himes on Nutaku with Jewels"?

Is it truly a feature, or just you overreacting to the bad luck of not getting a new SSR?I am quite convinced that Nutaku Jewel rate-up is either 1.1x or 2x. It's simply way too common for people to have found one or two Rate Up SSR Himes despite having played for years.

So, premise. Let's say that after a few days (once Grisaia event starts and where DMM boosted Rate Up to 25x) you land on a SSR Hime slot with Jewels, on Nutaku and on DMM. There will be 86 SSR Hime in the pool at that point. Let's say that the newest Rate Up Hime is OP as fuck, and that there are also 10 other newer, power-creeped the fuck out Hime in the pool as well (think of Iris and friends). So then, what is the difference?
On Nutaku, your chances to find a power-creeped one is (2+10)/(86+1) = 12/87 = ~13.7%
On DMM, your chances to find a power-creeped one is (25+10)/(86+24) = 35/110 = ~31.8%
So on DMM, if you land on that 1.8% slot, you're about 2.5x more likely to find something useful. Maybe this will be easier to read:


Nutaku: 300/(1.8%*13.7%) = ~120833 Jewels per useful Hime
DMM: 300/(1.8%*31.8%) = ~ 52380 Jewels per useful HimeTHAT is no small difference. And it assumes that Rate Up for Nutaku Hime is a whopping 2x which it might honestly not be.

So, here is the devious part. You know all those Limiteds that are coming up? Yeah, those are not staying in the pool. In other words... the "bad" Hime will forever stay in the pool, and the new hotness WILL NOT. So your chances to find good shit in the Gacha will not really go up much anymore. Have fun with that!
EDIT: Also, I think the Souls Eras were an interesting read, but I feel we are more in a "100% Eidolon or FU" Era.I didn't touch on P2W Eidolons, mostly because those are outside of things you can influence. I mean, you can pay thousands of dollars and MAYBE get one, but chances are, you won't. I keep hearing about this certain player who was pissed off at spending 1000 dollars in Gacha and didn't find Cerberus, "only" found one 120% Eidolon. And I'm like... what? Nigger please.

The average cost of finding a RANDOM P2W Eidolon is 4200 dollars (or 420000 Jewels). There are 11 in the pool, so finding a 120% one is 4200 dollars/(4/11) = 11550 dollars. And somebody found one with less than one tenth of that and was UNHAPPY? What the fuck is wrong with these people?
Notice, this is taking several assumptions. One, that real money Gacha has same P2W rates as Jewels do, as our data comes from Jewel rerolls. Two, that 120% Eidolons are not weighted down, which honestly would shock me if true.

I also didn't touch upon Accessory Set Bonus, because well, the grind for that is insane. Is it a massive upgrade? Yes. Have the most hardcore players done it for at least 4 SSRs? Sure. Do I think it's worth mentioning? Not really. To begin with, how do I even classify the eras? I guess "the era of no accessories", followed by "the era of R accessories since AQ4 drops jackshit", followed by "the era of SSR accessories from AQ5", finally ending up in "the 'why did we bother with SSR accessory era when the only thing that matters now is Tiaras?' era"? I... don't think that's particularly interesting, especially when the only real upgrade in there are the Tiaras.

[Geo]

I do understand your rationale about not mentioning the p2w Eidolons, as it is not under the player's control.

But then, everybody will get Hercules. Eventually. So I feel the toptier meta is more about whoever got the P2W than about who built the best grid or unlocked a certain Soul.

About the dude who spent $ 1.000,00 on this game... Well I will just say KamiPro is like a TCG. One is better off purchasing a single card (Miracle Ticket) than a box of boosters (thousands of dollars on Gacha). I will wait until the "Super MT" that allows us to grab a p2w is available before spending on this game.

Actually, maybe I will spend some on the "Ctulhu is the only SSR", in the hopes of not spending $ 1.000,00 for her... Dunno.

[Mraktar]

I am quite convinced that Nutaku Jewel rate-up is either 1.1x or 2x. It's simply way too common for people to have found one or two Rate Up SSR Himes despite having played for years.


So, here is the devious part. You know all those Limiteds that are coming up? Yeah, those are not staying in the pool. In other words... the "bad" Hime will forever stay in the pool, and the new hotness WILL NOT. So your chances to find good shit in the Gacha will not really go up much anymore. Have fun with that!I didn't touch on P2W Eidolons, mostly because those are outside of things you can influence. I mean, you can pay thousands of dollars and MAYBE get one, but chances are, you won't. I keep hearing about this certain player who was pissed off at spending 1000 dollars in Gacha and didn't find Cerberus, "only" found one 120% Eidolon. And I'm like... what? Nigger please.

The average cost of finding a RANDOM P2W Eidolon is 4200 dollars (or 420000 Jewels). There are 11 in the pool, so finding a 120% one is 4200 dollars/(4/11) = 11550 dollars. And somebody found one with less than one tenth of that and was UNHAPPY? What the fuck is wrong with these people?
Notice, this is taking several assumptions. One, that real money Gacha has same P2W rates as Jewels do, as our data comes from Jewel rerolls. Two, that 120% Eidolons are not weighted down, which honestly would shock me if true.

I also didn't touch upon Accessory Set Bonus, because well, the grind for that is insane. Is it a massive upgrade? Yes. Have the most hardcore players done it for at least 4 SSRs? Sure. Do I think it's worth mentioning? Not really. To begin with, how do I even classify the eras? I guess "the era of no accessories", followed by "the era of R accessories since AQ4 drops jackshit", followed by "the era of SSR accessories from AQ5", finally ending up in "the 'why did we bother with SSR accessory era when the only thing that matters now is Tiaras?' era"? I... don't think that's particularly interesting, especially when the only real upgrade in there are the Tiaras.

On DMM there was an eydo miracle ticket - including keysers and 100%, excluding 140% ones. Cost was $99 if i remember correctly, so you don't need to spend a 1000$, especialy if you need light/dark one or Hrae for def debuff. Btw, I already have 3 ptw eydo on DMM ftp so maybe drop rate is not so bad there.

[dreamlitz]

So I feel the toptier meta is more about whoever got the P2W than about who built the best grid or unlocked a certain Soul.

Actually, I think you may be overestimating the power of P2W eidos relative to grid. Everyone can get 45% event eidos and use a 100% friend (if you don't have 100% friends, 'reroll' your friend list until you get one for competitive stuff like tower.) 30% from soul weapon, so the difference between owning and not owning a P2W is about 20% difference in dmg. The difference between a 'meta' and non-meta grid can be much greater depending on how you define those terms, so I'll just point out the following rough observations:


FLB-ing a weapon typically boosts its stats by around 10%, its assault by 30%+ (e.g. 21% vs 16% for large assault) and adds an entirely new skill, so going from full SSR to full FLB gives you enormous boosts in dmg and/or survivability
Typical hime weapons have stats roughly 15%-20% higher than event weapons and may also have triple skills upon FLB, so if you go from full f2p grid to full whale grid, it is another noticeable jump in power
Phantom grid of type matching the preference of your offensive himes/souls (e.g. for light it's lance or glaive, since Shingen, Lugh and Tish are lance users, and Hector, Iris, Vishnu are glaive users) is another noticeable boost in power (exact numbers are hard to calculate 'cos it depends on what you had to give up to make the grid and which himes you have.)


Anyway, tl;dr version is that having a well-planned grid is worth a lot more than a P2W eido. P2W eido is still a big deal, but you need a lot more than that if you're aiming for leader boards or something.

I recently got my first P2W and MLB-ed her right away, but I'm still nowhere near being able to outrace the top tier players for MVP in rags - my Shingen on manual lost to someone's Andro on AAB... Noodle on that a bit and think about how big a difference the grid must be making for that to be possible (for reference, I had 2 hime FLB and 4 event FLB in my grid, no phantom - not meta but not too terrible I think?)

The game is still plenty fun to me even if I can't outrace ppl though. This game is a long grind, so hopefully ppl are at least enjoying the journey of getting stronger over time and finding many fun moments like MVP-sniping top tier players while they're afk or got Niked =)

[Slashley]

-- so the difference between owning and not owning a P2W is about 20% difference in dmg.You make it sound like 20% difference in damage output is a small thing.

It is not.

How much more Assault do you need for a 20% boost once you have 9*16% = 144% Assault? Because you need to include base, the answer is you need to reach 205% Assault. Which you cannot reach even if you FLB'd ALL of those nine weapons, as 9*21% = 189% Assault. The only way it can be done is if you got TWO double Assault weapons in those nine FLBs.

So yeah, 20% is by no means a joke. It's a vast and huge bridge that one simply cannot cross.
EDIT: Oh hey, I just realized I calculated what it takes to drop 20% damage, not what it takes to increase by 20%. The actual number is ~193%. The point still stands though, you need ONE double Assault out of 9 FLBs to reach that gain!
--
Anyway, tl;dr version is that having a well-planned grid is worth a lot more than a P2W eido. P2W eido is still a big deal, but you need a lot more than that if you're aiming for leader boards or something.Eeeeexcept that you're looking at it wrong. EVERYONE gets a good Grid, it simply takes a long, long time. Even longer if you started later in the game because fuck you, you don't deserve double FLB weapons from early Advents. Or good weapons at all from Union events now. Nonetheless, eventually, EVENTUALLY you will get a good Grid.

But eventually? Eventually, you are NOT guaranteed to find a P2W Eidolon. Ever. Are you likely to, if you play the game for many years? Yes. Are you guaranteed to get one? Not by a long shot.
And sure, DMM lately sold the old ones (the ones with the way shittier on-use (except Hraes) and notably less %), but it's a whopping 100 bucks. That's not something everyone can drop on a game.

[dreamlitz]

You make it sound like 20% difference in damage output is a small thing.

It is not.

How much more Assault do you need for a 20% boost once you have 9*16% = 144% Assault? Because you need to include base, the answer is you need to reach 205% Assault. Which you cannot reach even if you FLB'd ALL of those nine weapons, as 9*21% = 189% Assault. The only way it can be done is if you got TWO double Assault weapons in those nine FLBs.

I didn't mean to make it sound like it's no big deal, but I stand by my statement that the grid matters more:

FLB-ing increases your base stats as well, so if half your atk comes from your weapons, a 10% increase from base stats from FLB-ing all your weapons is a 5% increase in dmg - this will be multiplicative with the additional assault you get (as well as exceed and vigor.) The 205% assault (I actually got 193% but doesn't really matter) becomes around 179% to 190% depending on how you do your calc, which technically is feasible with full FLB. Also, assault isn't everything. Don't ignore things like exceed and vigor that might come as a second skill on FLB, exceed in particular matters a lot in late game when everyone has tiara sets and therefore short burst cycles. You should see a big change in dmg if you try doing dummy with and without exceed weapons (this isn't just about hitting cap either, exceed acts as a separate multiplier such that a single large FLB exceed boosts your burst dmg by 10%-ish if you're not using PF.)

Going from full SSR to full FLB grid should boost your dmg by 20%-ish just from base stats and assault gain, and much more when you include exceed and vigor even if we ignore endurance skills like defender and ascension. Put differently, someone with P2W eido with only a full SSR grid is not gonna be able to compete with a vet with a 45% eido but has a full or near-full FLB grid, even if they're all event FLBs and no phantoms.


So yeah, 20% is by no means a joke. It's a vast and huge bridge that one simply cannot cross.Eeeeexcept that you're looking at it wrong. EVERYONE gets a good Grid, it simply takes a long, long time. Even longer if you started later in the game because fuck you, you don't deserve double FLB weapons from early Advents. Or good weapons at all from Union events now. Nonetheless, eventually, EVENTUALLY you will get a good Grid.

But eventually? Eventually, you are NOT guaranteed to find a P2W Eidolon. Ever. Are you likely to, if you play the game for many years? Yes. Are you guaranteed to get one? Not by a long shot.

Actually, if we're talking about 'meta' grids, you most certainly are NOT guaranteed to end up with a 'meta' grid without paying since most of them involve bricking many dupes of certain hime or even draconic eye weapons. If we're talking about just a full FLB grid, sure, but everyone can also eventually farm the guardian eido, which can be quite powerful with a full FLB grid, meta or not.

Game progression isn't hinged on whether you have a P2W or not though, it just raises your ceiling and how quickly you can clear stuff, but that is true with any SSR you draw - if you draw good ones that work well together, you're suddenly more powerful. For complete f2p, you're never guaranteed any himes either regardless of how long you play (heck, even whales aren't guaranteed all the best himes, the number of mtix is limited after all.)


And sure, DMM lately sold the old ones (the ones with the way shittier on-use (except Hraes) and notably less %), but it's a whopping 100 bucks. That's not something everyone can drop on a game.

That's the cost of 2 mtix for something that is arguably more valuable than 2 mtix though. Yes, that is expensive for a lot of people but keeping up with the meta for a lot of games can get pretty expensive, not just KH. If you just want to continually improve your teams though, f2p is still viable.

[Slashley]

Again, over time, you WILL get a full FLB Grid. Once you have a full FLB Grid, just how much do you need to get 20% more damage now? In other words:
I didn't mean to make it sound like it's no big deal, but I stand by my statement that the grid matters more:

FLB-ing increases your base stats as well, so if half your atk comes from your weapons, a 10% increase from base stats from FLB-ing all your weapons is a 5% increase in dmg - this will be multiplicative with the additional assault you get (as well as exceed and vigor.) The 205% assault (I actually got 193% but doesn't really matter) becomes around 179% to 190% depending on how you do your calc, which technically is feasible with full FLB. Also, assault isn't everything. Don't ignore things like exceed and vigor that might come as a second skill on FLB, exceed in particular matters a lot in late game when everyone has tiara sets and therefore short burst cycles. You should see a big change in dmg if you try doing dummy with and without exceed weapons (this isn't just about hitting cap either, exceed acts as a separate multiplier such that a single large FLB exceed boosts your burst dmg by 10%-ish if you're not using PF.)

Going from full SSR to full FLB grid should boost your dmg by 20%-ish just from base stats and assault gain, and much more when you include exceed and vigor even if we ignore endurance skills like defender and ascension. --Once you have your Vigors and Exceeds and your 200% Assaults, do they diminish the value of a P2W? No, no they don't. On the contrary, ALL of this is further boosted by having a P2W Eidolon. This is why you're looking at it wrong.

Is having a Grid important? Of course it is. But that's not the point - the point is, YOU WILL GET YOUR GRID (unless you're a new player, in which case fuck you, free FLB Exceeds are not for you anymore). You will (probably) NOT GET a P2W Eidolon. That is simply an unsurmountable wall, a barrier that one simply cannot cross by their own. Unless you happen to get ludicrously lucky, or daddy owns some tropical islands.
Actually, if we're talking about 'meta' grids, you most certainly are NOT guaranteed to end up with a 'meta' grid --There is no point in talking about omegaspacewhalefromanotherdimension levels of Grids. Is a Grid of 4-8 Marduk Hammers and 0-4 Raiko Hammers better than a Grid you get for free? Of course it is. Is it going to be 20%+ more damage than a FLB Grid you can get for free? ... probably not? You can do the maths if you want, I have made a damage calc exactly for that purpose and everything.
Game progression isn't hinged on whether you have a P2W or not though,--I don't see how this a point either. You can literally go through all of the game progression with slvl1 Defender weapons and R Hime, depending on how you define progression (such as, playing through the storyline and completing raids events for the sidestories).

But that's not really what these forums are about. Or any other place as far as I know, since there is no juice to be had there - that's "once and done" stuff. Discussion comes mostly from min/maxing in some form - sometimes people talk about omegaspacewhalefromanotherdimension Grids and teams which makes little sense to me, as there's much more value to be had in minmaxing things that you actually can influence without daddy owning several oil fields.


But seriously, don't undersell P2W Eidolons. They are a massive game changer. I'm not sure about your 20% damage boost, since last time it was 25% when I checked. This, however, could be a figure from before Soul weapons and didn't assume elemental advantage, so eh, good enough I suppose. Still, in two months we're moving from 100%s to 160%s and ooooh boy, 20% isn't gonna cut it anymore.
Sure that's unfair since it is comparing 0-stars to 4-stars, but hey, Eidolon bricks are a thing even for free now.

The reason why they're not mentioned here is because they're not reliable for you to get - and rather difficult to split into eras. I mean, how would I categorize them? "Pre-P2W," "After P2W" and "by now 99% of people who didn't find P2W have either rerolled into one long ago or have outright quit in frustration" eras?

[Geo]

But seriously, don't undersell P2W Eidolons. They are a massive game changer. I'm not sure about your 20% damage boost, since last time it was 25% when I checked. This, however, could be a figure from before Soul weapons and didn't assume elemental advantage, so eh, good enough I suppose. Still, in two months we're moving from 100%s to 160%s and ooooh boy, 20% isn't gonna cut it anymore.
Sure that's unfair since it is comparing 0-stars to 4-stars, but hey, Eidolon bricks are a thing even for free now.

The reason why they're not mentioned here is because they're not reliable for you to get - and rather difficult to split into eras. I mean, how would I categorize them? "Pre-P2W," "After P2W" and "by now 99% of people who didn't find P2W have either rerolled into one long ago or have outright quit in frustration" eras?

Maybe those make sense in a business standpoint? Dunno though, but some dude reportedly spent $1.000,00 looking for Cerberus.

If there were no p2w Eidolons, the game would be more fun, but dunno if more profitable:

1 - I could choose other Friend's Eidolons based on content and preferences. As it is now, I will always choose someone with a p2w.

2 - It wouldn't alienate some players. A noob with a p2w will make friends with other powerful players, join better unions, clear more content, than even a veteran without those.

3 - It wouldn't derail a topic about the game's past =P

I understand power creep, but I believe those 100% Eidolons could easily be 50-60% and still be sought after (Hraes and Nidhogg for example, would still be good, but I could use Behemoth or Sleipnir if my himes had debuffs covered. Belial and Rudra would be more trashy, as there is Ifrit and Typhoon with Attack+ already, and Fafnir has both Atk and Def+).

I'd also like if the Souls were more balanced, in order to restore this Era of Harmony. The "which soul to use" thread would have more varied responses than "just use Hercules or Shingen".

In resume, there is less strategic decisions when one equipment is way more overpowered than the others.

[Slashley]

Maybe those make sense in a business standpoint? Dunno though, but some dude reportedly spent $1.000,00 looking for Cerberus.Just so you know, 1000 dollars is absolutely nothing in terms of whaling. There are people who are spending ten times that at least monthly even on Nutaku, I am pretty sure.

There is a reason why gachas/loot boxes are taking over video games so hard. Some people have ALL the money, and are willing to spend it. Reminder, 4200 dollars on average is what it takes to find a single P2W, so when you see somebody with 7 of them, that person has spent at least 30k money on the game. Probably ten times that in order to limit break them, partially through Eidolon bricks and partially through finding dupes.

[Geo]

So to the dude who got irritated by not getting Cerberus: you didn't spend enough!

But I watched a video on YouTube some time ago, about the FtP games. They are not about the skill, but about the time spent. The player will believe they have skills because they will tackle a complicated UI and lot of meaningless mechanics. The player will have incentives to spend some money in order to not waste his precious time grinding.

Heck, KamiPro is just like that!

1 - It has more than 7 currencies - Gems, Magic Jewels, Star Coins, Eidolon Orbs, Accessories Points, Tower Medals, Guild Medals, Orichalcon, Draconic Eyes, for example. Each Advent Battle is its own economy even!

2 - The player has to build his own weapon grid. In the Era of Harmony it was easy, just get Assault over Defender, but nowadays there is Ascencion, Exceed, Phantom, Rush, Vigoras...

3 - But regardless of all that, it will all come down to: "got a p2w?"

[dreamlitz]

But seriously, don't undersell P2W Eidolons.

Just to be clear, my intent was never to undersell P2W. I did say that they are a big deal (maybe I should have said that at the beginning instead of the middle of my post), I'm only pushing back against the idea that owning a P2W is more important than building out your grid, which I think is incorrect. And you are right, they're not mutually exclusive but synergistic, so doing both will get you really OP.


In other words:Once you have your Vigors and Exceeds and your 200% Assaults, do they diminish the value of a P2W? No, no they don't. On the contrary, ALL of this is further boosted by having a P2W Eidolon. This is why you're looking at it wrong.

That is true from both directions though: having a P2W does not diminish the value of your grid, on the contrary, it is further boosted by FLB-ing your grid.


But that's not the point - the point is, YOU WILL GET YOUR GRID

And you will get your MLB guardian eido - think of it as practice for T4 soul grind :rofl:

I haven't done the math as it's too dependent on your team setup and grid, but I think the power difference between guardian eido and P2W may be comparable to the power difference between f2p full FLB and spacewhale full FLB.


Discussion comes mostly from min/maxing in some form - sometimes people talk about omegaspacewhalefromanotherdimension Grids and teams which makes little sense to me, as there's much more value to be had in minmaxing things that you actually can influence without daddy owning several oil fields.

It's sort of a continuum though. I mean one brick per tower isn't crazy for most ppl 'cos of the ranking rewards, so most of us can FLB 2 hime weapons per year naturally. If you go full mono-element, you can mtix for weapon dupes once you have your core team and buy those brick deals on top of what we get from tower - it'll add up to several hundred dollars or so a year if you buy all the bricks and mtix, which is admittedly a lot for a video game, but a lot of ppl probably spend more eating out than that over a year and spend even more on other luxury items like fancy cars and lavish vacations (at least that's how I justify spending on video games to myself.) It's only spacewhale territory if you try to do this for more than one element.

In any case. it's often the same type of considerations whether you're using f2p or not anyway - with light for example, ppl often go for dupe Tish lances for the exceed regardless of whether they're building a lance grid or not; f2p FLB grid will also need exceed, but you'll get it from UE axe or guardian glaive instead.


The reason why they're not mentioned here is because they're not reliable for you to get - and rather difficult to split into eras. I mean, how would I categorize them? "Pre-P2W," "After P2W" and "by now 99% of people who didn't find P2W have either rerolled into one long ago or have outright quit in frustration" eras?

I actually never really took issue with what you include/exclude since honestly I haven't even been around long enough to have a right to comment :smirk:


2 - It wouldn't alienate some players. A noob with a p2w will make friends with other powerful players, join better unions, clear more content, than even a veteran without those.

These are the kinda statements that I'm pushing back against. I actually do NOT befriend low rank players anymore regardless of what eidos they have (before or after I got fluffy) 'cos they mess up my rags too often (if you're already on my friend list you're safe, 'cos i have a no-kick policy unless you go inactive or stuff your eido slots with lilims or kaisers.) Vets with no P2W but are in strong unions are very valuable as they give me access to their raids. I mean, I still need a large number of friends with fluffy, but it doesn't have to be my entire friend list.

Also, I've been clearing content just fine well before I got fluffy - 20/20 mission points for every GO, AAB all ults and all AQ5. I like to think that some noob with a P2W can't accomplish that and I'm not even technically a vet (played for almost a year at this point.) P2W eidos are OP, but they're not going to solve everything.

I do agree about the alienating ppl part though, I kinda wish they designed things such that the optimal eido combo is 1 P2W and 1 F2P like the guardian eido so you have an incentive to befriend ppl with something you don't have (kinda like Dia U - you don't really want to befriend other Dia U but other elemental P2W, if only Dia U wasn't also P2W.)


In resume, there is less strategic decisions when one equipment is way more overpowered than the others.

Main eido selection is a small part of the number of decisions you have to make regarding equipment though. Hime, weapons and sub-eido selections are largely independent of the main eido selection.

[Geo]

Main eido selection is a small part of the number of decisions you have to make regarding equipment though. Hime, weapons and sub-eido selections are largely independent of the main eido selection.

Exactly my point. We could argue about which hime to use, as we often see on the Miracle Ticket thread, or about which grid is better.

But Main or Friend Eidolon's choice? That's a no brainer! That's why the player has less strategic options, because there is only one (two?) correct choice.

[Slashley]

--
And you will get your MLB guardian eido - think of it as practice for T4 soul grind :rofl:

I haven't done the math as it's too dependent on your team setup and grid, but I think the power difference between guardian eido and P2W may be comparable to the power difference between f2p full FLB and spacewhale full FLB.--When I updated my damage calc to include Olympia Eidolons (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/3373-sanahtligs-kamihime-project-toolbox-post149578.html#post149578), I noticed that Olympia Eidolon is about equal to 60% Gacha Eidolons. For my stats, when on-element. So they're no alternative to 100%+ Eidolons at all, sadly.

I'm not expecting the grind for them to be all that bad. I am guessing the same droprate as Magnas and the fights being about as difficult, so getting 3-Stars should be relatively fast and the final copy will take a while. Time will tell.

[Dejnov]

When I updated my damage calc to include Olympia Eidolons (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/3373-sanahtligs-kamihime-project-toolbox-post149578.html#post149578), I noticed that Olympia Eidolon is about equal to 60% Gacha Eidolons. For my stats, when on-element. So they're no alternative to 100%+ Eidolons at all, sadly.

I'm not expecting the grind for them to be all that bad. I am guessing the same droprate as Magnas and the fights being about as difficult, so getting 3-Stars should be relatively fast and the final copy will take a while. Time will tell.

So while you are technically correct, the value of an Olympia Eidolon is not just the attack power (which they can't beat an on-element eidolon), but in the massive boost to sustain (and potentially vigor buffs if built for it). The 40% bonus character attack is negligible and will equal about a 50-60% element eidolon, but the bonus to defender, and more importantly, ascension and vigor from triple skills will allow you to fight in Rags for an extended duration while also maintaining burst capability and damage output. An Olympia Eidolon team IS stronger than almost every other Eidolon other than the 100% Element Eidolons. For everyone else who doesn't have one, it's a straight up stat boost (especially if you're earning bricks from the Towers and FLBing triple skill weapons). If you're running Thunder or Light (which both have incredible sustain and vigor buffs), they can work very well.


Dejnov.

[Slashley]

-- and more importantly, ascension and vigor from triple skills --There's a couple of problems with this.

Ascension has a cap, and the only element you can build an Ascension Grid realistically is Light (unless you are a newer player, in which case, fuck you). And Light is already capped in Ascension without Olympia. Can you get like, one or two Ascension weapons for other elements? Well, I guess? Is giving those a 40% boost going to do jackshit? Probably not. I'd see Ascension boosted by Olympia be useful if it didn't have a cap, since you could slam your Light Staff Grid and boost THAT a 40% boost. But you can't.

Vigor is also something that we have extremely poor access to. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Maybe, depending on element? Are you going to be at full HP to make use out of it against content that matters? Most likely no.

I can't help but see things like these as people applying spacewhalelogic to freaking normies, something like some omegawhale using a Thor Hammer Grid (Assault(++)/Ascension) and then soloing Water Olympia thanks to Dian (while downgrading damage output from loss of second P2W). But for 99.99% of the playerbase, it simply doesn't work in that way. Is the Olympia Eidolon an upgrade? Sure. But it's NOT a big one, simply because we don't have THAT much leeway in our Grids. You use what you have, not what would best suit the situation.

[dreamlitz]

Ascension has a cap, and the only element you can build an Ascension Grid realistically is Light (unless you are a newer player, in which case, fuck you). And Light is already capped in Ascension without Olympia.

Wait, unless you use 4 light UE staffs, you're not hitting ascension cap even with the Olympia eido (4 * 37 * 1.4 = 207.2% - just barely hitting the 200% ascension cap.) As to whether ascension is useful, well that is the same question as asking whether heal is useful. If you go full glass cannon for every battle, yeah, it's useless, but I have never seen any raids survive a DRag without heal of any sort, and it can't be the case that heal is useful but 40% more heal is not (technically it's 40% more of ascension, which is something less than 40% more heal but you get what I'm saying.)


I'd see Ascension boosted by Olympia be useful if it didn't have a cap, since you could slam your Light Staff Grid and boost THAT a 40% boost. But you can't.

Hitting ascension cap gives you 4,800 raid-wide heal with Andro. Bring two of these into a raid and the entire raid is practically unkillable even in a FRag after 10T (I have actually tried this with my union, 2 Andros + 2 dmg dealers going way past 10T without killing the top add and everyone still staying nice and healthy; for the record, those Andros were using LB0 ori weapons and SR weapons to get the ascension, not some whale grade draconic eye staff grid or something - you use what you have and sometimes the crappy weapons still does wonders for the raid.)

In any case, ascension or vigor or not, the Olympia eido scales with your grid, so if you're not light, your UE FLB will give you another weapon skill and scale that up accordingly.


I can't help but see things like these as people applying spacewhalelogic to freaking normies, something like some omegawhale using a Thor Hammer Grid (Assault(++)/Ascension) and then soloing Water Olympia thanks to Dian (while downgrading damage output from loss of second P2W). But for 99.99% of the playerbase, it simply doesn't work in that way. Is the Olympia Eidolon an upgrade? Sure. But it's NOT a big one, simply because we don't have THAT much leeway in our Grids. You use what you have, not what would best suit the situation.

Let's use my grid as example, which is light unfortunately: Mike lance (FLB), Sol gun (FLB), 2 UE axe (FLB), 2 UE staff (FLB), Barong gun, St. Nick sword, LB2 Tsuku bow + soul weapon (will ignore since Olympia eido won't scale that one.) I don't think that is a spacewhale grid, and if I counted everything correctly, I have 150% assault, 50% defender, 111% ascension, 60%/80% exceed cap/base. With that, MLB Olympia eido will give me 60% assault, 20% defender, 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed. MLB Heca only gives 60% assault and 20% defender, so Olympia already beats Heca and will grow more powerful as I add more FLB weapons slowly over time.

I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, and 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed on top of that is nothing to sneeze at - that's basically one FLB weapon's worth of skills, and remember, the upgrade can get better since I still have 3 weapons that are not FLB-ed. Is it as big an upgrade as a P2W? No, I don't think so, but I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. I will assert though, that by the time you are ready to challenge Olympia raids, your grid will probably be around or stronger than mine, so the Olympia eido will be a big upgrade over whatever you're using unless it's a P2W.

[Dejnov]

I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, and 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed on top of that is nothing to sneeze at - that's basically one FLB weapon's worth of skills, and remember, the upgrade can get better since I still have 3 weapons that are not FLB-ed. Is it as big an upgrade as a P2W? No, I don't think so, but I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. I will assert though, that by the time you are ready to challenge Olympia raids, your grid will probably be around or stronger than mine, so the Olympia eido will be a big upgrade over whatever you're using unless it's a P2W.

This right here is the basic progression that you get from the Olympia Eidos. They are better than all other Eidos, so they are a step up. Other grids (my experience is Light and Thunder) have the ability to go 3/3/3- 3 Assault/Defender, 3 Assault/Exceed, and 3 Assault/Ascension. That's a very viable spread of damage, hitpoints and sustain. For Light it's a single miracle Ticket (Sol) and basically UE weapons. For Thunder it's a couple SSR lances (pride/ascension) and bricks (which players get... it's not like they're non-existent).

I don't believe these a space whale levels... while they can take the tactics to extreme, you can still employ the weapon layout above and get a grid that might not snipe, but can plow through Rags effectively and, more importantly for the non-space whales, consistently and constantly. This should allow you to not die in a raid... and constant presence (with no reduction in assault capability) increases your overall damage done and makes it easier to complete the Rags. The above spread, with or without an Olympia Eido, will allow you to farm the current highest content (with help). If you're a space whale... maybe solo.


Dejnov.


P.S. The Tenpo exchange gives Thunder a 3skill gun (assault, ascension, vigor), Light a 3skill staff (defender, ascension, vigor), and Wind a 3skill glaive (defender, pride, pride). These weapons are what makes Olympia Eidos the go to Eido for everyone who doesn't have a 100% Element Eido. You have the opportunity to have triple skill grids (without Hime weapons) and everyone gets a very good mix of skills. When mixed with old UE weapons or the new angel weapons which have massive assault, and a bricked Hime weapon or two you can have a weapon grid for nearly free that will allow you to do very very well. I apologize for not mentioning the other elements as I'm not playing those, but I'm sure they have options also.

[dreamlitz]

Taking a quick break from work and wanted to flesh this out more with concrete numbers so we're not just talking hypotheticals here:

Use my light grid, St. Nick as main and friend fluffy as the base case and to maximize the appeal of P2W, let's make fluffy MLB and we're fighting off-element (on-element adds 45% elemental, which slightly reduces the appeal of additional elemental from P2W.)

With soul weapon, my base case elemental is 30% + 45% + 120% = 195% elemental. My assault is 150%.

Switching from St. Nick main to MLB fluffy main improves elemental to 270%, no change in assault, so overall change in dmg is (1+2.7) / (1+1.95) = 25% increase in dmg from fluffy.

Switching from St. Nick main to Hagith main drops elemental to 150% but improves assault to 210%. Ignoring exceed, defender and ascension improvements, this change alone is [(1+1.5)*(1+2.1)] / [(1+1.95)*(1+1.5)] = 5% increase in dmg from Hagith assault gain.

We're not done yet though. In a somewhat close to meta light team, you should be at a 3T burst cycle, and depending on how many red abilities you have and what your DATA is, the burst accounts for over half of the total dmg each cycle (without PF, PF actually often slows down the burst cycle too much.) To keep the math simple, let's assume the burst is exactly half the dmg of each burst cycle. Since we're not spacewhales here, let's assume we're not even hitting the 1 mil burst cap, so only the 32% exceed and not the 24% cap is relevant. 0.32 / 5 base SSR burst multiplier is a 6.4% increase in dmg. Burst accounts for half of total dmg, so this translates into a 3.2% overall increase in dmg - this is a separate multiplier from the 5% we got from assault since assault raises the dmg of everything. Multiplying the two gets us to 8% increase in dmg so far.

Now for the defender part. As a first approximation, let's assume that you're just another body to throw at a rag, so you fight until you die and let someone else carry the raid. If you have twice as much health, you will survive twice as long and therefore deal twice as much dmg. Hagith increases our defender value from 50% to 70%, which is a 13% increase in hp, which means we multiply our 8% by that and gets us to 23% increase in dmg - this is almost as good as the 25% we got from using fluffy as main.

Now, in real life situations, you don't usually fight until you die, and if you're fighting something like lrag where its OD just ends you regardless of whether you have an extra 13% hp or not it's not even relevant, so we have to discount the value of defender somewhat. I'm not gonna even try to put a number on that, but remember, I have ignored ascension so far, which I will also not put a number on, and unless you discount defender to close to zero, Hagith for my current non-spacewhale grid compares quite favorably to fluffy. Even if you say that defender is only worth half the value I computed, Hagith still boost overall dmg by 17% - two-thirds of what fluffy is worth.

P2W is a big deal, nobody is saying otherwise, but Olympia eido imo is at least two-thirds as big a deal as a P2W, which is still a pretty big deal imo. You have to assign very low values to non-assault/exceed skills to conclude otherwise.

[Slashley]

Wait, unless you use 4 light UE staffs, you're not hitting ascension cap even with the Olympia eido (4 * 37 * 1.4 = 207.2% - just barely hitting the 200% ascension cap.)There has been FIVE of those Staves, you know. And Phantom Staff is also a thing. Also, isn't it 34% per FLB? 5*34% + 30% Phantom = 200%, exactly the cap. Whether or not that's a smart thing to do is another matter...

In any event;
-- (technically it's 40% more of ascension, which is something less than 40% more heal but you get what I'm saying.)this here is the real problem. Olympia will boost each FLB Ascension by 13.6% Ascension, which translates into 217.6 more Heal from Andromeda. Per heal, so that's what, 43.5 HP per turn...?

Which is why Ascension isn't very impressive until you stack up a whoooole bunch of it. It stacks up and starting being impressive as you start getting to and over 150%, but at that point it's already badly cutting into your Grid.
In any case, ascension or vigor or not, the Olympia eido scales with your grid, so if you're not light, your UE FLB will give you another weapon skill and scale that up accordingly.Ah yes, like Double or Triple that Fire and Water get. While I still doubt that we know their actual values, we can say that they're probably very low. And very low * 0.4 is not much of an upgrade. Or Crit that Thunder gets. You know, that stat that is quite nice when it procs, but the procrate is so awful that even 0.5% Assault is notably better for you. AND Crit only applies with elemental advantage.

At least Wind and Dark get something decent. 240% Exceed in Wind gets 96% more Burst damage, although with PF only 60% of it applies due to cap. Still, for R Hime, that's already double Bursts just from Grid should you need help with R-only missions... ... which nobody who has seen all of the Lusts will need, and those who need help can't get! GAME DESIGN!
And Dark gets a chunk of HP. Like 36% if you're running ALL the Axes. Can't complain.

So, very few skills actually get boosted - and that's a large part of why Olympia Eidolons are not quite the hottest shit in town.
I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, --The problem with this line of thought is that this only applies with elemental advantage. Character Atk Eidolons have had an advantage over Elemental ones ever since elemental advantage became the assumed default, P2W Eidolons eventually became more common (most likely due to those without them just outright quitting) and Soul weapons. So you shouldn't compare to St. Nick or Barong for those who don't have Managarm, you should compare to Yule Goat.

Either way, I really can't sign the "big upgrade" part since while it is AN upgrade, it simply isn't a great one. It's basically comparable to a MLB gacha Eidolon, which again, is AN upgrade, but not THE upgrade.
P.S. The Tenpo exchange gives Thunder a 3skill gun (assault, ascension, vigor), Light a 3skill staff (defender, ascension, vigor), and Wind a 3skill glaive (defender, pride, pride). These weapons are what makes Olympia Eidos the go to Eido for everyone who doesn't have a 100% Element Eido. You have the opportunity to have triple skill grids (without Hime weapons) and everyone gets a very good mix of skills.The problem with these weapons is that they're NOT FLB weapons. They go up to slvl20 (while costing as much to level up as FLB weapons from 1-30 for some reason). As such, I don't see those weapons as real upgrades - since 30+30 skill levels is about the same as 20+20+20 - they're a catch up mechanic for those who missed out on FLB weapons. Really, the only weapons that stand out to me as potentially good weapons for veterans are Water Lance (if you missed out on Glaive Grid) and the aforementioned Wind Glaive (since Wind doesn't get a F2P Phantom Grid).

The other good thing about that shop is that there are Exceeds in there - but sadly, these seem to be in dual skill weapons. Better than nothing, but simply doesn't compare to the UE weapons. Of course, I could've missed out on some of them, since FOR SOME REASON WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD SHEET ON THESE WEAPONS WHERE ONE COULD TELL AT A GLANCE.
Seriously JStar, what the fuck.

Better than nothing, but we have to remember that the rate at which you get these weapons is (most likely going to be) god-awful. At a maximum of 1 per month, and that's if you kill 350 of these things per month, and that's per element that you're working on. Or you can go at half the speed at just 100 kills per month, which is much more manageable.
-- To keep the math simple, let's assume the burst is exactly half the dmg of each burst cycle. -- Burst accounts for half of total dmg, so this translates into a 3.2% overall increase in dmg - this is a separate multiplier from the 5% we got from assault since assault raises the dmg of everything. Multiplying the two gets us to 8% increase in dmg so far.Rather than pull speculation out of your ass, you should probably use actual maths. Like I don't know, a calculator.

And 3 turn burst cycles? That sounds completely out there. I suppose it could happen thanks to Michael, but christ. Even if true, that's some data that will literally only ever apply to one element in Kamihime ever. Let's not use the most favorable situation possible - an insane team that is absolutely perfect and above anything else in possible in the game - as the very basis of maths.
-- which means we multiply our 8% by that and gets us to 23% increase in dmg - this is almost as good as the 25% we got from using fluffy as main.As you said later, this is entirely and thoroughly detached from reality. That's not how it works, at all. This kind of math would only work if losing HP would linearly (not exponentially like with Vigor) translate into damage lost.


You are seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY over-estimating what Olympia Eidolons will do to you. Again, you can expect to upgrade to something like a MLB Gacha Eidolon. Is that an upgrade? Yes. Yes it is. But pre-P2W Eidolons, you could barely notice the damage difference from whales, and that's roughly where you will stand with a Olympia Eidolon.
You have to assign very low values to non-assault/exceed skills to conclude otherwise.I don't even value Exceed. You need one Exceed, plus one if you have P2W Eidolon. Add in more depending on gimmick Hime such as Thunder Aphro, but in general, one is all you need. The damage increase portion of it is outright bad until you stack up a ton of it, and stacking up a ton of it will cost your Grid a lot.

What you want is Assault. What you want after that is HP. After that, the rest can go to Exceed. Remember - the new weapon skills in Kamihime came to dilute the weapon pool with trash - NOT to make it easier to upgrade!

Is it possible to make Grids based on Ascension or Vigor? Yes, yes it is. Are you likely to ever do that? No. No you're not. Like your experiment with 0-star Ori weapons with Ascension. Did you make it work? Yes. Was it worth the effort? It was cute, but hell no. I'm pretty sure the raid would've been way easier to kill with four people just running their normal Grids - with or without Andromedas -assuming they were decently strong. If they weren't... well, oh boy was it a monstrous thing to do if you made two newbies waste four Ori and 4x3800 slvl points on those weapons.

[Dejnov]

What you want is Assault. What you want after that is HP. After that, the rest can go to Exceed. Remember - the new weapon skills in Kamihime came to dilute the weapon pool with trash - NOT to make it easier to upgrade!




So Slashley, I think this quote from you is the biggest mistake you're making in understanding Kamihime and the ability to create synergy.

What you want is the largest marginal gain in a non-multiplied attribute; rather than adding marginal gain to a highly multiplied attribute. This is very different than prioritizing assault over defense over ascension, etc. After you have a decent multiplier, greater returns are built around adding a multiplier to a skill that doesn't have it. After you have 150% assault, every marginal point only adds 0.4% of the amount. At that point there is very little value to keep adding more to that source of multiplier. The same for exceed and defender and everything else. After you have decent amounts of assault and defender, it really is more valuable to add ascension (if you have a healer) for the combat sustain to your team. Where that break occurs is sometimes in the user's experience, but the issue is that your current calculators don't account for it so you're sometimes intentionally blind to synergy possibilities.

It's very similar to the discussions we had with Accessories. Defense bonuses (since they are the same amount as assault bonuses) are much more valuable than plain assault bonuses on accessories. They are so much more valuable that I usually think of an assault proc on an accessory as a small step up from burst gauge. You should be working hard to gain anywhere from 15 to 20% defense from accessories (mostly tiaras) as they act like intrinsic damage cut. That's super valuable (and for Light usually means they are potentially as valuable as DATA amounts, since we also have an inherently large amount of that).

The same principle applies to ascension and vigor. Vigor is self-explanatory as it's a different multiplier but when you start getting large amounts of ascension, hit points, defense, etc. You get to a point where these things can actually synergize incredibly well. They can help drive a team's sustain and potentially damage ability (with the vigor).

The Olympia Eidolon is a step up from Heca and Yule Goat for any veteran grid (minimum 150% assault and 50% defense). It's a great step up for those who effectively use triple skills in their weapon set.

Lastly triple skills at MLB are better than a dual skill weapon at FLB. Your (30+30) vs. (20+20+20) is inherently flawed, since you're thinking linearly. If you're at 150% assault and 50% defender, you should be multiplying the assault level by 0.4 and the defender at 0.66. This would change the estimation from (30 assault + 30 defender) vs. (20 assault + 20 defender + 20 ascension) to (12 assault + 20 defender) vs. (8 assault + 13.3 defender + 20 ascension) or 32 effective skill points to 41 effective skill points. This is why Hime weapons like Vishnu Glaive ranks higher priority than Shamash Book (both triple skill weapons). The vigor from the glaive is a new multiplier vs. the extra pride from the book which is still plain assault.


Cheers!!

Dejnov.

[dreamlitz]

There has been FIVE of those Staves, you know. And Phantom Staff is also a thing. Also, isn't it 34% per FLB? 5*34% + 30% Phantom = 200%, exactly the cap. Whether or not that's a smart thing to do is another matter...

If we're going by use what you have, most ppl I know including myself don't have 5 UE staffs. If you have 5 UE staffs, I'm pretty sure you're in a situation where you DO have options for weapons and can probably make even better use of Olympia eido's flexibility than I can. For one, you should have 4 UE axes, so make an axe grid not a staff grid with Hercules axe. You still have room for 4 UE staff after that to still hit ascension cap with Hagith - Hagith boosts ascension by 52% here - more than one one entire FLB worth of ascension L. Worthless or not I leave it for others to decide.


Ah yes, like Double or Triple that Fire and Water get. While I still doubt that we know their actual values, we can say that they're probably very low. And very low * 0.4 is not much of an upgrade.

We do know the values though, unless you have good reasons to doubt the work of JP/EN wiki contributors: FLB rush 1.5%/4.5%/7.5% for S/M/L and FLB barrage is 1.5%/3.0%/4.5%. Yeah, weapon DATA skills are less than great especially if they're S, but as long as there're other decent weapons, Olympia eido is still valuable. If those elements indeed don't have any good f2p weapon, then the problem is dev bias, not with the Olympia eido itself.


So you shouldn't compare to St. Nick or Barong for those who don't have Managarm, you should compare to Yule Goat.

Yule Goat is not in the eidolon orb shop, so not everyone can get it, I actually missed it myself =(

Anyway, I redid the math using Yule Goat as base case. MLB fluffy is now worth a whooping 48% dmg improvement, but Hagith is now worth 25% REGARDLESS of how you value defender, 'cos Hagith and Yule Goat gives the exact same defender bonus with my grid. So, Hagith is half of a massive upgrade, that is still a big upgrade in my books. Seriously, 25% extra dmg easily means the difference between clearing and not clearing content.


And 3 turn burst cycles? That sounds completely out there. I suppose it could happen thanks to Michael, but christ. Even if true, that's some data that will literally only ever apply to one element in Kamihime ever. Let's not use the most favorable situation possible - an insane team that is absolutely perfect and above anything else in possible in the game - as the very basis of maths.

Shingen, Lugh, Tish, Mike AW plus literally anyone you want - even an R if you want. If you play light, hopefully you rerolled into at least one of those himes, so it's just 2 mtix. And for completeness, this is how it works:

After first burst, Shingen is at 50 BG from Mike AW and soul weapon, everyone else is at 20
Shingen's skill 1 gives 35 BG with a 3T CD, so she's just 15 BG short from bursting - 2 single attacks will get her there
Lugh's skill 2 gives 30 BG every turn for 2T after burst, so she's at 80. On 3rd turn, her skill still gives 20 BG, so she literally doesn't even have to attack and is ready for burst
Tish 2nd abi has 3T CD and every skill used gives 10 BG. She has 2 other 6CD skill, so if you stagger them, you have an extra 10 BG every 3T. She's at 40 BG and will need 2 DA to hit 80 to be ready for burst - tiara set plus some combination of Shingen DATA buff, fluffy DATA buff, Mike AW DA buff will easily get you there
Mike AW needs 1 DA and 1 TA to hit 70 - easily doable with tiara set and Tish's TA buff
Generic hime needs 2 DA to hit 60, tiara set and Tish's TA buff should be more than enough (remember Tish's buff is 5T, so you can basically keep it up on two himes almost all the time)
I haven't even mentioned Shingen's 20 BG team-wide MEX on 6T CD and Mike's 20 BG team-wide on 7T CD - if you get really unlucky with DATA, just use one of these and viola, ready for FB

I do not consider 2 mtix and 4 tiara sets to be an insanely perfect team.


As you said later, this is entirely and thoroughly detached from reality. That's not how it works, at all. This kind of math would only work if losing HP would linearly (not exponentially like with Vigor) translate into damage lost.

If you don't like vigor, use pride, which is more accessible (I have it in my grid I just ignored it 'cos it makes things unnecessarily complicated.) There literally isn't a situation where neither vigor nor pride is of value. In any case, if you're seriously saying that defender is a useless skill and having more of it does basically nothing, we somehow have had completely difference experiences from this game then. I've min-maxed like crazy in the past for a 10%-ish boost in my hp so I can clear stuff like GO more comfortably. Enemy does DATA, too, and you want some safety margin.


I don't even value Exceed. You need one Exceed, plus one if you have P2W Eidolon.

Exceed isn't just about the cap though, it acts like an additional dmg multiplier. Going from zero to 1 FLB exceed S will boost your non-PF FB dmg by 6%. If FB is half your dmg per burst cycle, that's a 3% boost overall (doesn't matter how long your burst cycle is for this calculation, only where the dmg is coming from.) Compare to a FLB assault S when you're already at 189% if you're only focused on assault, gives a 5% dmg boost - if you say 5% from that extra assault is a big deal, the 3% from exceed should at least be on your radar, given that double assault/pride weapons are extremely rare (no one is saying sacrifice assault for exceed, only that exceed is valuable especially as a second skill.)


I'm pretty sure the raid would've been way easier to kill with four people just running their normal Grids - with or without Andromedas -assuming they were decently strong. If they weren't... well, oh boy was it a monstrous thing to do if you made two newbies waste four Ori and 4x3800 slvl points on those weapons.

Those were my alts, I don't experiment on newbies (yes, I run two active alts alongside my main, call me whatever names you want, I'm actually used to it.) And 4 ori isn't much once you get the hang of GO - I have spent 16 ori just buying weapons for my light grid and 12 ori for my dark grid. If you ignore the bad FLBs (like the UE examples you gave earlier) and/or don't try to build all elements at once, there's actually plenty of ori to spare.

In any case, that is also besides the point, I was just trying to make the point that even if ascension is capped, being able to hit that level of ascension has value. I know a lot of ppl, not just you, disagrees with that, so it's not really worth going into more.

[AutoCrimson]

For one, you should have 4 UE axes, so make an axe grid not a staff grid with Hercules axe.
i'm pretty sure we had only 3 UE axes (just checked my inventory)
we had, however, Assault/Defense axe from event, means 6 axes grid is still viable, with Herc axe

[Geo]

Let me sum up all this algebra:

Weapon grid is more important than having a p2w Eidolon when it comes to power up a team.

Having a p2w Eidolon is more important than whatever other options there are.

Olympian Eidolons will be the best option available for f2players. But again, the p2w ones are (generally, or always?) better.

Is that the correct conclusion?

[Bear]

Let me sum up all this algebra:

Weapon grid is more important than having a p2w Eidolon when it comes to power up a team.

Having a p2w Eidolon is more important than whatever other options there are.

Olympian Eidolons will be the best option available for f2players. But again, the p2w ones are (generally, or always?) better.

Is that the correct conclusion?

No. Not always. Over here it's entirely possible to use a Guardian vigor grid + specific builds (i.e. Perseus' total shutdown build, i.e.2 Yorimitsu triple FB + couple rounds of NAtk during peak hour, where your frontloading dmg is so high the boss is dead before anyone else can finish their rotation) to outdmg decent 100% users. I've lost to a guy on my FL with nearly 10k less Atk power than my team does quite a few times. It all depends on team + weapon skills + real time control.

.... obviously this doesn't apply to space whales with 90~100k power grids but then they prolly wouldn't even use 100% and might just use Burst Streak summons instead...

[Slashley]

So Slashley, I think this quote from you is the biggest mistake you're making in understanding Kamihime and the ability to create synergy.

What you want is the largest marginal gain in a non-multiplied attribute; rather than adding marginal gain to a highly multiplied attribute. This is very different than prioritizing assault over defense over ascension, etc. After you have a decent multiplier, greater returns are built around adding a multiplier to a skill that doesn't have it. After you have 150% assault, every marginal point only adds 0.4% of the amount. At that point there is very little value to keep adding more to that source of multiplier. The same for exceed and defender and everything else.I am fully aware, but here is the problem: Non-Assault and non-HP stats, in general, suck total ass.

Let's see what exists:
Assault: You stack this BECAUSE it works. It's always there for you, and you stack so much of it that gains in this dwindle (and I am totally using dwindle as a term for this post). And it's STILL the best stat, even after the effect has dwindled! This is the baseline for budgets, the thing that everything is compared to.
Pride: Effectively Assault for all intents and purposes. It's there even at 100% (where it is slightly weaker than Assault), and grows in power as you lose HP (becomes equal to Assault at 70% HP, and only grows stronger from there). A friend in times of need. Budgeted equally-ish to Assault.
Defender: HP. Can't deal damage if you're dead. A vital part of the any strat, whether it is the usual "kill it before it kills you" or an endurance/tanking/healing/whateveryoucallit build. Only bad if you can somehow guarantee your opponent won't be fighting back, which isn't realistic. Not a damage stat, but budgeted well.
Rush: Double attacks are cool, but the problem is that this simply pales in comparison to Assault in damage output - even when you consider increased Burst frequency. Budgeted too low.
Barrage: Triple attacks are even cooler, but the problem is that this simply pales in comparison to Assault in damage output - even when you consider increased Burst frequency. Budgeted too low.
Stinger: Crits! A separate damage modifier! ... except it sucks. So each skill level is what, 0.005 chance to dealing 0.2 more damage? 0.001 more damage per skill level then? Compare to Assault's 0.005 increase per skill level (before dwindling effects). In other words, Assault needs to dwindle down to 20% efficiency before Crit becomes worth it - ON ELEMENT. It is budgeted far too low. Due to being a different modifier, "useful" for memes and damage records when it procs, at least until we get the Crit balancing patch.
Exceed: This is useful for one thing: Damage cap increase. While you generally don't need much of that, some is very nice to have. As an added bonus, extra damage. The problem is, the extra damage is horrendously budgeted, and you have to remember that SSR Hime already start with 500% of it so it is immediately suffering from the dwindling problem. In general, if I recall right, if you have the choice it's "always" more damage output to get more Assault than Exceed (again, talking if you don't need more cap). This might not apply to the insane Light team which bursts every 3 turns, but outside of that specific perfect team, Assault should be the better choice. As such: damage increase component budgeted too low if you're running a full SSR team, due to dwindling issues. And I didn't even touch PF dwindling issues where you start at 700% modifier...
Ascension: Increased heals. Now, this is nice, but it suffers from three inherent problems: 1. You need to use Healers to make use out of this, and outside of Cass/Andromeda you're not guaranteed to have any 2. Even if you do have Healer(s), there is a lot of content that doesn't output heal-able damage (think current Thunder and Light Rags) 3. The heal increase is pretty low. Now, Ascension CAN help, but you need to stack a lot of it. Which... cuts into the amount of Assault and/or Defender that you can have. Which... well, isn't a good thing. So Ascension isn't so much of a stat that you WANT, it's more of a stat that you NEED and only for SPECIFIC content. On one side of the coin it is budgeted far too low to be useful to splash into your Grid, and on the other side of the coin Grids focused on this stat have awful damage output due to loss of Assault.
Elaborate: You could probably increase the effect of this by ten times and it'd still be awful. But at least then it would have the niche of being useful for multi-hit meme teams. For now, complete garbage due to being budgeted entirely wrong. Not sure what went wrong here, did devs forget how the ability damage formula?
Technica: Apparently a thing on DMM, can't comment on it.
Vigor: A separate damage modifier! And actually doesn't suck total monkey balls! Almost as powerful as Assault (we're talking budgeted from 85% Vigor() to 97% Vigor(++) of Assault damage values, which is great), but without ANY of those nasty dwindling problems! There's just one little problem. If you're not at FULL HP, Vigor will just abandon you. Halfway point is already at 83%. As such, the best uses of Vigor brings Healers and Ascension... and that eats into your damage output. And suddenly you're not doing all that much more damage because you sacrificed Assault for stats that'll help keep Vigor up - while still being at great risk of losing your damage output from damage taken. Is it possible to make Vigor work? Yes. But unless you can guarantee that your enemy will not even be looking at you angrily, it's a risky game to play. For damage output, this is by far the best stat after Assault (and I mean AFTER Assault, because you'll have MORE Assault than Vigor, simply because Assault IS budgeted better AND is risk-free!) but comes at great risk. Splash into it if you can, but don't heavily dip into it unless you have some serious plan. Remember, Vigor is NOT your friend in need, but rather like that rich mafia boss next door - a great friend to have when things are going great, but he is not going to help you if shit hits the fan. Budgeted extremely well, but risky.

So, see the problem here? What exactly DO you want outside of Assault and HP? All the other options are budgeted extremely poorly (on purpose!). As such, while you are technically correct that stacking different modifiers is great, the reality is entirely different due to the way the devs implemented the other skills.
Lastly triple skills at MLB are better than a dual skill weapon at FLB. Your (30+30) vs. (20+20+20) is inherently flawed, since you're thinking linearly. If you're at 150% assault and 50% defender, you should be multiplying the assault level by 0.4 and the defender at 0.66. This would change the estimation from (30 assault + 30 defender) vs. (20 assault + 20 defender + 20 ascension) to (12 assault + 20 defender) vs. (8 assault + 13.3 defender + 20 ascension) or 32 effective skill points to 41 effective skill points. This is why Hime weapons like Vishnu Glaive ranks higher priority than Shamash Book (both triple skill weapons). The vigor from the glaive is a new multiplier vs. the extra pride from the book which is still plain assault.I don't think it is flawed, because of the above. Even with dwindling, Assault reigns supreme due to budgeting.

The problem with triple-skill weapons... is that there are only a few actually good skills to have. So, you usually have something like Assault + Defender + something useless. Is that better than Assault + Defender + nothing? Yes it is. However, until now, that's been because triple-skill SO FAR has GUARANTEED 30 skill levels in all three skills. But now, we're getting Olympia weapons which only get 20. So is 20 Assault + 20 Defender + 20 something useless (effectively 40) better than 30 Assault + 30 Defender (effectively 60)? No, no it isn't. In order to be actually good, it NEEDS to have ALL THREE skills be highly desirable. And, if you read above... ... there really isn't many highly desirable skills in the game. This vastly limits the actually useful weapons.

Vishnu Glaive works because splashing a little bit of Vigor can work out great for you - you don't lose much Assault but you gain massive chunk of damage at full HP. But just as an example, if you were to think of a full Grid of Vishnus, Vigor's problems would start playing a massive problem. So, great Grid if you have a plan, but if you don't... they just pale to the always working full Grid of Shamashes. This example ignores reality on multiple fronts such as availability and Phantom weapons, but you get the point I hope.
We do know the values though, unless you have good reasons to doubt the work of JP/EN wiki contributors: FLB rush 1.5%/4.5%/7.5% for S/M/L and FLB barrage is 1.5%/3.0%/4.5%.Are they? Source? JP wiki only has 3% as 30 Rush() and 3% as 20 Rush(+). And 20 Barrage() only lists 1% and 20 Barrage(+) at 2%. These don't really match up to what you're saying.

Rush and Barrage scaling have been a hot topic for ages now, and you know what? We STILL DON'T KNOW THEM. And I can't blame anyone (except the devs) for that - measuring randomness is no small task.
Shingen, Lugh, Tish, Mike AW plus literally anyone you want - even an R if you want. If you play light, hopefully you rerolled into at least one of those himes, so it's just 2 mtix.Is anyone going to reroll into a Hime, rather than... you know, Managarm? So that is most likely three MTs, but at least on Nutaku we've had One Year Future Specs available to use which has enabled us to MT Michael from one of the earlier MTs. Tish and Lugh would've required complete commitment to Light, though.

Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but I'm just saying that this specific team isn't THAT easy to get since you need to seriously commit to specifically Light for it.
If you don't like vigor, use pride, which is more accessible (I have it in my grid I just ignored it 'cos it makes things unnecessarily complicated.) There literally isn't a situation where neither vigor nor pride is of value.The other way to look at it is that one part of your Grid will always be crippled, har har. But really, unless you're specifically building a Vigor Grid, you should just consider Pride as Assault.
In any case, if you're seriously saying that defender is a useless skill and having more of it does basically nothing, --Did I ever say that, or even imply that? HP should've been basically #2 most important thing all the time in my posts...
Exceed isn't just about the cap though, it acts like an additional dmg multiplier. Going from zero to 1 FLB exceed S will boost your non-PF FB dmg by 6%. If FB is half your dmg per burst cycle, that's a 3% boost overall (doesn't matter how long your burst cycle is for this calculation, only where the dmg is coming from.) Compare to a FLB assault S when you're already at 189% if you're only focused on assault, gives a 5% dmg boost - if you say 5% from that extra assault is a big deal, the 3% from exceed should at least be on your radar, given that double assault/pride weapons are extremely rare (no one is saying sacrifice assault for exceed, only that exceed is valuable especially as a second skill.)See above. Sure, Exceed increases your damage... but if you have the choice, Assault will increase your damage even more. Even after dwindling, it'll still increase not only your Burst damage, but also... well, ALL the damage!

And again, might not apply to bonkers Light team. Because really, let's not have a team of three exact Light Hime as the basis of EVERYTHING.
Weapon grid is more important than having a p2w Eidolon when it comes to power up a team.

Having a p2w Eidolon is more important than whatever other options there are.My view on this is that Grid is something that you WILL get. It will take time, and I don't mean weeks. Or months. More like YEARS, as Kamihime is a marathon game. But, you will get it eventually. As such, P2W Eidolons are the most important thing due to limited availability.
Olympian Eidolons will be the best option available for f2players. But again, the p2w ones are (generally, or always?) better.Outside of some veeeeery niche things like what Bear mentioned, yes.

Olympia Guardians will be the best F2P Eidolon. Nobody is arguing about that. We're arguing about by how much. My take is is that it will be a small upgrade, while some believe it to be the second coming of our Lord and Savior Thor.

[Ozraptor]

I know this isn't why people play this game, but has the storyline set up in the introduction and main quests been permanently abandoned at this point? It's been years since we had any story progression.

[AutoCrimson]

official answer is "the story is continued in events"

[Geo]

The main story, to me, was more about what Testament is, and less about stopping Ragnarok. So that story is pretty much finished as we discovered the origins of the organization.

The Events and the new himes released don't even mention Testament the group anymore.

[Slashley]

I am digging this up because a few posts above, I ranted about weapon skills (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/5143-kamihime-journey-2-5-a-post150052.html#post150052). Now, come April 2021, we should be getting a weapon skill balance patch. Skill changes to the above rant:

Pride: This skill was ruined by turning it into a reverse Vigor - no effect at full HP, and a separate modifier at low HP. This made Pride weapons UTTERLY USELESS, because it only kicked in when at low HP. You know, the very unfounded reason why these forums have always been afraid of Pride weapons. Anyway, DMM quickly realized their mistake and restored Pride to where it was before. So still budgeted equally-ish to Assault, just be ready that your Pride grids will be entirely useless for some days/weeks when the patch hits.

Rebellion: A new skill introduced after they reverted Pride change, the very same reverse Vigor. Staying at low HP is basically impossible without dying (well, certain individuals can probably do it, but not entire teams), so this skill is effectively useless. There is still ZERO information about this on DMM wiki after almost four months, so probably budgeted completely to shit, stay away until the next balance patch.

Rush: The effect of this has been doubled. I doubt that Rush is STILL good though. Oh, and it is likely that we STILL don't know the exact values provided by this, as the values on the DMM wiki continues to fluctuate. Budgeted too low.
Barrage: The effect of this has been doubled. I doubt that Barrarge is STILL good though. Oh, and it is likely that we STILL don't know the exact values provided by this, as the values on the DMM wiki continues to fluctuate. Budgeted too low.

Elaborate: BIG changes:
- HUGE increase in damage cap granted by this skill (2%/3.5%/5% always to 10%/15%/20% MLB or 15%/20%/25% FLB)
- Damage cap increase hard caps at 100% for weapon skills, and 50% for buffs. A total of 150% extra damage (2.5x the damage) is possible under ideal conditions.
- Damage over cap will be reduced by 96%, up from 90%. Past a certain point, damage will be reduced by 99%. (no idea, does this apply to EVERYTHING from that point on, or past a certain tresholds? If so, what are these tresholds?)
- No change to damage increase, so this portion is still garbage.
The important thing here is that Elaborate ACTUALLY increases damage cap properly now. The skill is still fairly bad... but it does allow for meme builds. For example, Phaleg has an Elaborate(++)/Vigor(+) weapon. You can use five of these to literally double the damage output of Medea. Now, this Grid will be absolutely awful for MOST content, but may be extremely powerful in some. In fact, once third generation P2W Fire Eidolon comes out with her 100% Assault, I fully expect quite a lot of people to run Wind Tower with such a setup (well, you'll probably only use 3-4, but whatever). So, it's bad, but possible to make it work if you have a plan.

Vigor: No real changes to the weapon skill itself, but Eidolons with Vigor will have their own frame. In other words, Vigor will still hard cap at 100% from Grid/buffs, but you can get up to 180% through the use of Eidolon passives (not that you'll ever want to). So still budgeted extremely well, but risky.


And while we are talking about Vigor... does anyone know does overcapping Vigor work?
By that I mean, let's say you got 200% Vigor from your Grid. Yes, that's impossible, but humor me. Now, Vigor hard caps at 100%, so you get double damage at full HP. But since you have base 200%, if you go down to 83% HP, does this mean that you're STILL doing double damage despite losing half the effectiveness of Vigor? Or does the hard cap reduce your Vigor to 100% before HP checks, so you're down to half damage increase despite having 200% base Vigor?
The DMM wiki claims that overcapping works, but has anyone actually tested this?

[Alaryn]

Just wanted to post that its cool that you are still writing stuff on this site even though people hardly use it anymore. Always nice to see writeups about whats coming next.

[Slashley]

Just wanted to post that its cool that you are still writing stuff on this site even though people hardly use it anymore. Always nice to see writeups about whats coming next.Ha ha ha, I know...

I think a combination of Nutaku Kamihime dying and official Discord is what killed these forums off. People much rather use Discord, despite it being an awful, awful program and despite forums being a far better way of storing information. So as long as I keep playing Kamihime, I'll keep trying to post things here. I doubt I'll make a difference, but you don't know until you've tried.

Other posts that are coming up once I can be arsed to do them are T4 Soul buffs (for the weak ones, June 2021) and Thunder Tower stuff (coming early next month). Not sure in which order.

[AutoCrimson]

so, things still stay as they are, even after...

[Jessa]

Just wanted to post that its cool that you are still writing stuff on this site even though people hardly use it anymore. Always nice to see writeups about whats coming next.

I double that! Nice work slash. And yeah, pissdiscord is abomination :cursing: