Olympian weapons vs demon UE FLB

[dreamlitz]

Wanted to see how the upcoming Olympian weapons match up to past demon UE FLBs - commonly considered some of the best f2p weapons - so I tried to match the UE FLBs against what I consider to be the closest Olympian weapon:
https://i.imgur.com/d4S2Bio.png

I'll let ppl draw their own conclusions, but I plan to farm the heck out of these raids assuming I'm strong enough to do them/leech.

If you notice any typos or numerical errors, let me know and I will correct them. All other suggestions such as layout and color scheme EDIT: and how or what information is presented will be ignored - if you dislike both JStar's and my layout, go make your own please. I don't know how to make the image full-sized in the post; admin feel free to edit if you can fix that for me.

[Dejnov]

Wanted to see how the upcoming Olympian weapons match up to past demon UE FLBs - commonly considered some of the best f2p weapons - so I tried to match the UE FLBs against what I consider to be the closest Olympian weapon


These guardian weapons are, quite simply, phenomenal content for all players barring some triple skill Hime weapons (that require bricks). I'm looking at the thunder gun, water lance, wind bow and glaive, dark gun, and the light staff. Only Fire is somewhat limited with the pride/exceed weapon, but for the other elements there are combos of assault, exceed, defender, vigor, and ascension that can support teams as needed.

Losing 5 to 15% assault for some augment/sustain skills is great value. Some like the water lance, thunder gun, and wind glaive create new builds going forward.

My favorite is the thunder gun atm!! The synergy between assault, ascension, and vigor (combined with healing and damage cuts within thunder) can help create a very powerful high damage/high sustain team. I'm thinking- Dian, Marduk, Raiko and BaalU and Phul.


Dejnov.

[Slashley]

Finally there's a useful spreadsheet on what the weapons do.
Though, why do you list the "Y% healing done" in Ascension? Since everyone who has any MLB SSR Eidolon Grid (that's like, played the game for... 6-8 weeks?) is going to cap out on Heals, that doesn't seem like useful information. It's irrelevant garbage just taking space for not reason.

You probably made a mistake with the Dark Gun and Water Axe, 20%/20% Pride(++)/Assault doesn't seem quite right. Probably meant 20%/30%. Though, I'm not entirely sure if listing the second value is necessary - just listing Assault at 100% should be enough, and maybe add a note for (Pride).
-- I'm thinking- Dian, Marduk, Raiko and BaalU --I mean just remove BaalU for Thunder Aphro and you have the meta team as far as I know it, even without any changes to your Grid...

The problem with Guns is that... well, it's a Gun. Ideally you should be looking at Lances/Glaives/Bows/Hammers. There are several decent ones here, but building a Grid solely out of them *shudder Wind* is going to be some complete shit until drop rate increase... which is uh, what, 10 months away? Did anyone record the date for that?

[dreamlitz]

Though, why do you list the "Y% healing done" in Ascension? Since everyone who has any MLB SSR Eidolon Grid (that's like, played the game for... 6-8 weeks?) is going to cap out on Heals, that doesn't seem like useful information. It's irrelevant garbage just taking space for not reason.

It actually does matter. Atum heals for 2k (or higher, JP wiki says 3k, which is higher than I remember but I haven't tested her recently) but actually only heals 20% hp, so you can't even make full use of her heal unless your hp is at least 10k. Adding ascension actually further raises that break point. Sol technically has that problem, too, but not as extreme (33% heal capped at 1.8k) - you won't run into it once you hit around 8-9k-ish hp depending what size ascension you use.


You probably made a mistake with the Dark Gun and Water Axe, 20%/20% Pride(++)/Assault doesn't seem quite right. Probably meant 20%/30%.

Checked it against JP wiki, it looks fine to me: Pride (++) at SL20 is 10% base assault + 20% pride multiplier; assault at SL20 is 10% base assault with no pride multiplier, so it becomes 10%+10% / 20%+0% = 20%/20%.


Though, I'm not entirely sure if listing the second value is necessary - just listing Assault at 100% should be enough, and maybe add a note for (Pride).

It depends on your playstyle. If you like to eat OD to build burst, the pride effect gets amplified by your burst multiplier and can add up to a lot of dmg. It's also relevant to himes like Kali that revolves around living life on the edge. Just ignore it if neither of those applies to you.

[Dejnov]

Finally there's a useful spreadsheet on what the weapons do.
Though, why do you list the "Y% healing done" in Ascension? Since everyone who has any MLB SSR Eidolon Grid (that's like, played the game for... 6-8 weeks?) is going to cap out on Heals, that doesn't seem like useful information. It's irrelevant garbage just taking space for not reason.

The %healing is straight addition to all healing values for nearly every Hime I have. The cap is 100% additional healing (4 thunder guns). You should try out ascension; you might not be understanding how it works correctly.



You probably made a mistake with the Dark Gun and Water Axe, 20%/20% Pride(++)/Assault doesn't seem quite right. Probably meant 20%/30%. Though, I'm not entirely sure if listing the second value is necessary - just listing Assault at 100% should be enough, and maybe add a note for (Pride).I mean just remove BaalU for Thunder Aphro and you have the meta team as far as I know it, even without any changes to your Grid...

Not a mistake at all... now you see why some of us are actually very very interested in these triple skill wonders. As to Taphro, that'll happen in March.



The problem with Guns is that... well, it's a Gun. Ideally you should be looking at Lances/Glaives/Bows/Hammers. There are several decent ones here, but building a Grid solely out of them *shudder Wind* is going to be some complete shit until drop rate increase... which is uh, what, 10 months away? Did anyone record the date for that?


That problem goes away when every other weapon in your grid is a double assault weapon (i.e. Assault L+ no defender like the Angel weapons) and the phantom guns (assault/ascension/vigor)... suddenly that 30% defender can be a significant amount of defender in a thunder grid.

What would you have a grid of 6 assault/defender and 3 assault/exceed weapons (like lance in light) or a grid with 1 defense+ 3 assault/exceed and 6 assault/ascension/vigoras weapons (phantom gun, 3 union thunder lances, 6 thunder guardian guns)?

I'm leaning to the OP second option!!


Dejnov.

PS. Thats about 159 assault and 48 vigoras ~3.83x assault (prior to elemental- 2 kirins x 3.7 = 14.1x assault) at full hit points and way too much healing to keep yourself at full!!

[Dejnov]

Let's do some theorycrafting:

One of the great choices going forward is for water: The lance is assaultL and sprout (vigor/ascension) and the axe is PrideL and Strength (strength/defender). You'll still need 3 exceed weapons so let's say you have the old union bows (assaultL, exceedS) to finish the grid.

I'm leaning to the phantom lance being the better option (plus Shingen lance) so a final grid can be 4 guardian lances, 1 shingen lance, 1 phantom lance, 3 union bows, and 1 guardian axe. That's gives you 163% Assault, 32% vigor, 90% exceed, 96% ascension, and 26% defender. You're a little weak on the hitpoints, but you'll hit very hard. Base assault bonus (no element) at full hit points is approximately 247%. Pride/vigor is a natural combination that helps mitigate the hit fast go home aspect of the grid as it starts kicking in when vigor starts dropping, so you can try swapping out one of the old union bows for another axe. That'll get you 162% assault, 32% vigor, 60% exceed, 96% ascension and 36% defender. That a base assault bonus at full hitpoints of 245%, some more hitpoints (nice since you're light) and two prides for 20% assault for when you're at half health and your vigor is gone (183% base assault). Those are solid combos with mostly F2P weapons


Let's look at Dark:
The dark guns prideL, strength (assault/defender) are the best choices in that list. I like the dark arcane also, but dark has no real healers to abuse it.
I can see a union hammer (3), 2 other dark assault hammers, phantom hammer, and those dark guns replacing the old union axes in a grid (more assault/less defender better offense ability). You do have that one vigoras/defender staff from the advent event, but let's not consider it for now.

A good new grid would be phantom hammer, 3 union hammers, 2 assault hammers (MLB), and 4 dark guns. That's a total of 205% assault, 90% exceed and 40% defender. That's a ton of offensive ability plus you have 4 sources of pride, which means at half health you get another 40% assault.

Let's look at Wind:

Frankly, wind got the best draw. All weapons are insanely good. Your best bet is to make a phantom glaive grid, 5 guardian glaives, 3 guardian bows, and 2 guardian arcanes. That's a total of 149% assault, 40% defender, 90% exceed, 31% vigor and 54% ascension. Base assault is 226% assault with decent defender, exceed and healing. You are a bit of a glass cannon as you have no pride weapons in that mix... though those old union swords are pride, exceed. But the beauty here is that this grid is totally F2P, rivals the best you had earlier and abuses triple skill weapons substantially.

Add on the Wind Guardian and you have a team that rocks and is totally F2P. Ticketing 1 or 2 Himes (Azzy, CuChu) is all that's needed. And you don't need old weapons either!!


Dejnov.

[Slashley]

-- but actually only heals 20% hp, so you can't even make full use of her heal unless your hp is at least 10k. --ALL Heals and Regens in Kamihime work like that. ALL of them Heal for x% of max HP.

However. This "x" is extremely high. Like, I wouldn't wonder if SR Nike - you know, the Hime you start the game with! - healed for 50%. Is that a fact? Well... no. Because these numbers aren't really recorded anywhere, since they're SO HIGH it's hard to find the breakpoint before you already reach the healing cap! I also call bullshit on that mere 33% from SSR Sol. That sounds reeaaally low and would require 5454 max HP to cap. Well, I guess everyone had that at the point that Sol Awakening came to be a thing... the original 1500 Heal would then require 4545 max HP to cap. Which is easy to reach with just a SSR Eidolon Grid. But again - I really doubt that it's as low as 33%. The only thing I've EVER not hit cap with was Belobog's Regen. Which I think is 4% per tick, at 300 max. This would require 7500 HP to max out, which is something that I absolutely didn't have against Dullahan, despite having played the game for a couple of months at that point.

Thus, because of the way that Kamihime Heals work, increasing your Healing done is pointless - instead, increasing the cap is what matters. This is why the Kaiser passive effect is useless, since you're always capped on your Heals and it doesn't increase that cap.

As far as Atum goes... you do realize that 10k HP is trivial to reach these days, right? Most F2P teams are running 12k-18k HP, and whales are running 10k+ base HP on their Souls - and that's obviously before any Defender they may or may not be running! Regardless - sure, let's say that Atum actually DOES need this increased Heal amount. That's still exactly ONE HIME in the entire game. Is it really necessary to inform players of the interaction of that one single Hime, when for everyone else they reach the cap easily anyway?
Checked it against JP wiki, it looks fine to me: Pride (++) at SL20 is 10% base assault + 20% pride multiplier; assault at SL20 is 10% base assault with no pride multiplier, so it becomes 10%+10% / 20%+0% = 20%/20%.Soooo... you're saying that you intend your spreadsheet to be read like "20% at full HP, and add 20% when at low HP"? Oh, okay. I don't see the reason why you would make your readers run through minor mental exercises like that instead of just presenting them a "20% at full, 40% at low", but fair enough, I guess?
-- If you like to eat OD to build burst, the pride effect gets amplified by your burst multiplier and can add up to a lot of dmg.--Something like this is never reliable, universal information though. Triggers and Overdrives may allow for that in some content, but won't allow for it in a lot of it.


The %healing is straight addition to all healing values for nearly every Hime I have. The cap is 100% additional healing (4 thunder guns). You should try out ascension; you might not be understanding how it works correctly.See above, I'm pretty certain you're the one who doesn't understand the basics of how Heals work in Kamihime. Which is no surprise, as few people do thanks to the Heal % is so high and the caps are so low.

Again, increasing Healing done does nothing for you. The important part is increasing the cap which is extremely low - once the cap is raised, you will have enough HP to get the full Heal anyway. Oh, and the Ascension cap is 200%, meaning triple the amount Healed. So you get Andros healing from 1600 -> 4800 in raids.
That problem goes away when every other weapon in your grid is a double assault weapon --So, if double Assault weapons are so plentiful and easy to get... why not just fill your Grid with them? :)

Oh right, it's because they're not that easy to come by and you're talking dreams out of your ass. For example:
What would you have a grid of 6 assault/defender and 3 assault/exceed weapons (like lance in light) or a grid with 1 defense+ 3 assault/exceed and 6 assault/ascension/vigoras weapons (phantom gun, 3 union thunder lances, 6 thunder guardian guns)?Six Thunder Olympia Guns, huh. Let's see. Assuming that you get all four copies each month, you'll have yourself done in six months - assuming that you grind yourself through 350 Thunder Olympia raids. Every. Single. Month. And that's just ONE element. So you'd be done in... June if you managed that 350 raids in the last week of 2019, but more likely in July 2020. And let me remind you - that's 2100 raids over this timespan, worth of 10500 Seeds. And all of your loot goes towards those specific weapons - and nothing else. Meanwhile, what about the rest of your elements?

Of course, you can say that you'll just run them at low Limit Breaks. Feasible. If we lower it to just two Guns per month, you'll have your set of six weapons at 0-Stars in March/April. This has the added benefit of only requiring 100 raids per month (500 Seeds per month, down from 1750 Seeds per month). But you're still running a Phantom Gun Grid with six 0-Star weapons, which is... not... the best of ideas.

Are you seeing the problems of reality yet? This is assuming the same droprate as Magnas, which I don't know will it be the case or not.

But we're not even done yet. Leaving aside the irony of still leaving old UE weapons (that aren't accessible anymore and we only ever got two out of) in this ideal, fantasy Grid of yours... if anyone is going to commit so big on Thunder, why wouldn't they... I dunno, make use out of those Marduk (Assault(+)/HP(+)/Exceed) and Raiko (Assault(++)/Pride) Hammers? I mean, over the period of six months, there are going to be three Towers. And that's 3x 15000 Medals - just one Tower away to FLB both of those. At least it's easy to think where the Marduk Hammer goes, as they're a straight-up upgrade compared to UE Lances. I'd say replace the non-existing one.
You also forgot to include Soul weapon. You're not going to run Dartagnan with an Olympia Gun, right? ... right?

tl;dr; You have your head in the clouds. I'm not sure what you're basing your theorycrafting on, but I'm preeeeetty sure it isn't reality.


And posting this, I see that you edited your second post from just a one-liner into something bigger. Don't have the time to read it right now, will comment on it after sleep+work.

[Dejnov]

Slashley raving like a lunatic, frothing at the mouth and wildly swinging at windmills



I'll admit... you got heart kid! And you're a fighter so that's also a plus. But, unfortunately, your counter argument makes you sound like a bit of an idiot, since you weren't using your brain. It's pedantic, mundane, procedural, and focused in minutiae instead of the bigger picture. You happen to have a scarcity mindset and you need to change it to a growth mindset. Otherwise you'll never see the possibility that's staring you right in the face. You also have to familiarize yourself with what you're arguing over. I'll hit some of the points you brought up, but I'm not usually interested in the weeds (big picture thinker myself).

1) When talking about ascension weapons, I happen to paraphrase the intent of the weapon. The quoted bonus I was stating is the healing cap bonus (which dreamlitz lists first and also includes in his notes below. good job dream!). A thunder gun at sl20 gives you a 24% increase in the healing cap- I just refer to that as additional healing. It also gives you 3% additional healing, but who the fuck cares... right? Please please please take a look at the weapon definition on the wiki so that you understand what we're talking about.


2) It's theorycrafting... it's supposed to be 'Field of Dreams' like; go big or go home! It was mostly trying to showcase some of the possibilities these weapons allow you to do and why the guardian eidolon is an awesome choice for anyone who doesn't have a P2W eidolon. These weapons and that eidolon allow you to compete with a P2W grid. You may not be totally on par, but you're damn close.


3) You don't need to have this all right now. As someone smart told me once (you Slashley!!), Kamihime is a marathon, not a sprint. These weapons work well when you have a ton of them (and you should work to get more), but they do wonders in just individual drops also. You're not limited to just using guardian weapons; no one is. You most definitely want to add the great Hime weapons you've FLBed already to the mix and you'll definitely want to replace the lower tier advent and union weapons you have from prior events. You don't have to do it in one burst... take your time and enjoy the journey!


4) A 0LB dual assault type guardian weapon (assault/vigor or assault/pride) at full skill is better than a FLB single assault skill weapon at full skill. The base stats, while helpful, aren't where you're getting your power from. It's just like a 0LB sl 20 SSR assault weapon is better than a MLB sl 20 SR assault weapon. That 3% makes all the difference. Does it help having it limited break? Hell yes. But you can use it a zero level just fine.


5) The thunder gun at 0LB sl 20 have 16% assault and 8.5% vigor. Because the vigor is on it's own frame, it's effect multiplies base assault and therefore it's much greater than adding marginal assault in a well built grid. Assume your a player with 150% assault and looking to add a FLB assault weapon (21% assault) or this MLB thunder gun (16% assault/8.5% vigor) at full hitpoints that 8.5% vigor is equivalent to 21.25% assault giving you 37% at full health. It also comes with 24% healing cap which increases all healing by 24%.
The pride/assault glaive for wind gives you 20% assault at full health and gives you another 10% at half health. It also gives you 10% defender. This is much better than any FLB assault(L)/defender(M) weapon I can think of. It is about 400 total power and 6% defense below a Hime (Frey's sword is a great example) weapon, but I'm thinking those are acceptable losses for the extra assault it's giving you. If you stick a guardian Eidolon on that build you now have a weapon that gives you 28% assault and 14% defender making this weapon at full health 7% more assault and only 2% less defender. It also gives you 14% more assault as you lose life.


6) Dreamlitz and I have talked about (and shown graphs) about how to combine vigor/pride weapons to mitigate the overall loss in assault power you get when you lose hitpoints. Without other sources you should have 2 pride weapons for every vigor weapon in your grid to maintain an assault advantage at high hitpoints (85%+) and also at low hitpoints (60% or less). In between you suffer a small 5% loss in assault power. Once again, please look at those graphs I did and digest them so that you understand what you're criticizing. You don't understand the value of vigor that these weapons give to players (new or old).


Dejnov.


P.S. If you are using a Guardian Eidolon instead of a P2W one, you want as many sources of vigor (and some pride) to mitigate the elemental loss you're going to have. You also want to minimize the amount of defender, exceed, and ascension you stick in your grid as you'll usually have enough and may go over the caps imposed by those weapons. The dark gun (pride/strength), wind glaive (pride/stalwart), thunder gun (assault/sprout) and water lance (assault/sprout) and axes (pride/strength) are all top tier choices for a guardian eido.

[dreamlitz]

However. This "x" is extremely high. Like, I wouldn't wonder if SR Nike - you know, the Hime you start the game with! - healed for 50%. Is that a fact? Well... no. Because these numbers aren't really recorded anywhere, since they're SO HIGH it's hard to find the breakpoint before you already reach the healing cap!

These numbers are actually recorded on the JP wiki - they're slightly spotty but covers most healers. SR Nike is actually the exception not the rule in terms of when you pass that break point. Nike U for example is only a 25% heal with 1800 cap, so the break point is 7200.

There are also two other things you need to consider:

1. There are sources of ascension that raises the healing cap but not the % healed, such as Sol AW's 3rd ability that makes the break point higher than at first glance.
2. Ascension weapons usually further RAISES the break point, NOT lowers it (e.g. Sol AW 33% 1800 heal has a break point of 5454, add 1 FLB Ascension (++) becomes a 39% 2520 heal with a break point of 6461 - adding more ascension further raises the break point)


I also call bullshit on that mere 33% from SSR Sol. That sounds reeaaally low and would require 5454 max HP to cap. Well, I guess everyone had that at the point that Sol Awakening came to be a thing...

Sol was my first mtix and my first AW. I was at around 6-7k hp when I had her. With her 3rd ability up, she should be healing for 2700. I distinctly remember that she healed for less than that and it made me wonder whether I was understanding her 3rd ability correctly and sent me researching on this precise issue we're discussing here. I didn't do any extensive testing, but 33% implies 2310 heal at 7k, which is consistent with my recollection of Sol only healing low 2k for me back then.

And since this is irrelevant garbage anyway, I will not bother testing it. Others are free to refute the JP wiki if they have hard evidence.


As far as Atum goes... you do realize that 10k HP is trivial to reach these days, right?

As I explained earlier, ascension will raise that break point. At max ascension, you're looking at 12k-13k break point depending what size ascension you're using assuming her heal is 2k. If it's 3k as stated by the JP wiki, the break point would be a whooping 18k-20k. Light isn't dark, we aren't flooded with defender weapons - if you missed the earlier events like Pheonix bow and Yule Goat axe, there aren't many great options for defender (which is why I keep running LB0 Tsuku bow in my grid and bought the St. Nick sword from ori shop as well as min-maxing eidolons to boost my base hp.)

Also, one application of ascension is turtle builds. It is actually difficult to hit 10k hp with extreme turtle builds 'cos you're usually using crappy weapons and eidos to make the whole thing work. These break points actually do bind if you're not careful in your ascension/defender ratios.


That's still exactly ONE HIME in the entire game. Is it really necessary to inform players of the interaction of that one single Hime, when for everyone else they reach the cap easily anyway?

If you don't have Atum, don't turtle or don't even use ascension, just ignore this information. If I exclude this information, someone with Atum can also come along and say my numbers are all wrong, the ascension on Olympian/UE weapons are very low because as you say, few ppl actually understands how healing works in KH. If I'm damned either way, I prefer to include more rather than less information.


Soooo... you're saying that you intend your spreadsheet to be read like "20% at full HP, and add 20% when at low HP"? Oh, okay. I don't see the reason why you would make your readers run through minor mental exercises like that instead of just presenting them a "20% at full, 40% at low", but fair enough, I guess?

If you want to know what the assault would be at X% HP, it's easier to have the numbers presented as base%/pride%, 'cos then the math is base% + X%*pride% - one multiplication and one addition. If I presented it as min%/max%, then calculation becomes min% + (max%-min%)*X% - that's one extra subtraction. Incidentally, listing base and pride multiplier separately is also how both the JP and EN wikis describe pride. Again, if I'm going to be damned either way, I choose the way that I personally find more helpful.


Something like this is never reliable, universal information though. Triggers and Overdrives may allow for that in some content, but won't allow for it in a lot of it.

I honestly don't understand the point of this statement. You asked me why I even bothered providing the pride multiplier, I replied with not one, but two examples of when it may be interesting to know the impact of pride and further stated that you're free to ignore that information if they do not apply to you and you're now criticizing one of my examples for not being universal (neither of my examples are universal btw, I mean, you CAN use Kali at full health, and lest I be accused of including information pertinent to exactly one hime, you can also use the following himes at full health and ignore that they're designed to not stay at full health: light Athena, Lugh, Tishtrya, Justitia, Nuwa (and everyone that's with her), Minerva, Ares and probably many others, these are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.) Look, any time you take dmg, pride kicks in, how's that for universal? What is the impact of that? That's what the pride multiplier is there for.

[Superbia]

Interesting discussion. Keep up the good work dreams.

[Caldernaji]

I think a thunder gun grid is pretty good overall in the long run. My dream thunder grid is 2 Mammon guns, Phantom gun, 3 Olympian guns, 2 Marduk hammer, and 1 Raiko hammer with the meta thunder himes. With vigoras in it's own bracket, you can pretty consistently hit cap amounts of damage using a 5 vigoras weapons grid. In my calculations, it's actually very very difficult to hit the 350k cap with just assault and elemental multipliers alone. You could, in theory, do it with double MLB nid, thunder aphro's vigoras buff, kaiser buff, a whole bunch of raiko hammers, and a glass cannon hammer grid. But it's mathematically a lot easier if you make your vigoras multiplier bigger since you're getting significant diminishing returns from assault in that hammer grid.

[Slashley]

--
Let's look at Wind:

Frankly, wind got the best draw. All weapons are insanely good. Your best bet is to make a phantom glaive grid, 5 guardian glaives, 3 guardian bows, and 2 guardian arcanes. That's a total of 149% assault, 40% defender, 90% exceed, 31% vigor and 54% ascension. Base assault is 226% assault with decent defender, exceed and healing. You are a bit of a glass cannon as you have no pride weapons in that mix... though those old union swords are pride, exceed. But the beauty here is that this grid is totally F2P, rivals the best you had earlier and abuses triple skill weapons substantially.

Add on the Wind Guardian and you have a team that rocks and is totally F2P. Ticketing 1 or 2 Himes (Azzy, CuChu) is all that's needed. And you don't need old weapons either!!And what, exactly, do you do with with Ascension in Wind...? You're rather unlikely to run Set. You might run Frigg, but you didn't recommend her through MTs. Looks like an entirely wasted stat to me.
--
2) It's theorycrafting... it's supposed to be 'Field of Dreams' like; go big or go home! --While I don't entirely disagree with that - please root your dreams at least somewhat into reality. There are very, very few players on the Nutaku who are going to farm that ludicrous amounts of the Olympia raids - specifically, when farming all of them. Hell, at some points you even mention farming multiple different weapons. Technically not much of an issue if you only want one one MLB of those (just buying one per month is reaaaaally cheap!) buuuuut... you sure make it sound like that's going to be an easy to get, immediate thing.

If you plan to farm one element exclusively, then it becomes far, far more feasible. However, that hasn't really been the premise on these forums for over a year now, so please mention that if that is your plan.
3) You don't need to have this all right now. As someone smart told me once (you Slashley!!), Kamihime is a marathon, not a sprint. --I keep saying that because I agree with those words, but I would like to clarify that those are VERYVOODOO's words. At least I think he came up with them... don't know if he copied them from somewhere else.
4) A 0LB dual assault type guardian weapon (assault/vigor or assault/pride) at full skill is better than a FLB single assault skill weapon at full skill. The base stats, while helpful, aren't where you're getting your power from. It's just like a 0LB sl 20 SSR assault weapon is better than a MLB sl 20 SR assault weapon. That 3% makes all the difference. Does it help having it limited break? Hell yes. But you can use it a zero level just fine.So, you're saying that a 0-Star Grid of a non-Assault Phantom weapon is a good idea? I'd love to see real numbers from that experiment. My calc exists if you want to run the numbers.
6) Dreamlitz and I have talked about (and shown graphs) about how to combine vigor/pride weapons to mitigate the overall loss in assault power you get when you lose hitpoints. Without other sources you should have 2 pride weapons for every vigor weapon in your grid to maintain an assault advantage at high hitpoints (85%+) and also at low hitpoints (60% or less). In between you suffer a small 5% loss in assault power. Once again, please look at those graphs I did and digest them so that you understand what you're criticizing. You don't understand the value of vigor that these weapons give to players (new or old).I don't remember seeing such graphs, but they sound like they have a faulty premise. Effectively, you're relying on either wasting one portion of your Grid at high health, or relying on wasting an other portion of your Grid when at low health. Without presenting alternatives - such as non-Pride Assault with Vigor or full Assault/Pride at low HP - you don't have a proper graph.
1. There are sources of ascension that raises the healing cap but not the % healed, such as Sol AW's 3rd ability that makes the break point higher than at first glance.Oh? What other sources? Outside of the mentioned Awakened Sol, I can only think of Andromeda's Soul weapon burst effect.
And by the way, Awakened Sol's 3rd ability gives two buffs. One for more Healing power (overall entirely wasted due to the cap) and one to increase cap. Sooo that one doesn't really count for increasing the break point, if there's any kind of argument to be had there.

[dreamlitz]

And what, exactly, do you do with with Ascension in Wind...? You're rather unlikely to run Set. You might run Frigg, but you didn't recommend her through MTs. Looks like an entirely wasted stat to me.

... I don't know why you must make ascension sound like one of the worst skills ever, but saying that it is a useless stat for wind? There is Azazel AW and she is definitely MT-worthy and has team-wide 300 energy drain and 500 regen - ascension works on both. With all the DATA buffs you get from wind, you should think of it as the higher end of 300-900 energy drain and 500 regen on 5/7T CD. The main flaw I see is that taco may never give Azzy AW to us...


There are very, very few players on the Nutaku who are going to farm that ludicrous amounts of the Olympia raids - specifically, when farming all of them.

Didn't want to wade into this part of the debate, but I can't help but think that you're implicitly assuming that players don't get better over time - when I first started, I had to manual advent experts - not even ultimates, experts, now all events are AAB material for me. Early on, I tried to do LUlt, which took me over twenty minutes to clear, with help, not even solo. It seemed crazy to me at the time that I was expected to farm these hundreds or even thousands of times. But then slowly, my grid got better, and now I just AAB every ult and I go manual LRags instead. I presume it'll be the same with Olympia raids - you get better over time and what used to be incredibly time-consuming grind becomes easier and faster.


6) Dreamlitz and I have talked about (and shown graphs) about how to combine vigor/pride weapons to mitigate the overall loss in assault power you get when you lose hitpoints. Without other sources you should have 2 pride weapons for every vigor weapon in your grid to maintain an assault advantage at high hitpoints (85%+) and also at low hitpoints (60% or less). In between you suffer a small 5% loss in assault power. Once again, please look at those graphs I did and digest them so that you understand what you're criticizing. You don't understand the value of vigor that these weapons give to players (new or old).


I only remember doing this with Abou, who had special atk that scaled like pride. I forgot the exact details, but I did find a build where Abou + some amount of vigor (I think it's just 1 SR replacing 1 SR disaster hammer) suffers at most a few % loss in dmg relative to St. Nick or Barong, but retains a lot of the upside at low HP.


Oh? What other sources? Outside of the mentioned Awakened Sol, I can only think of Andromeda's Soul weapon burst effect. And by the way, Awakened Sol's 3rd ability gives two buffs. One for more Healing power (overall entirely wasted due to the cap) and one to increase cap.

You are right, Sol AW's ability buffs both, so that wasn't a good example. But other than Andro's weapon, there's also Andro/Cassio/Vivian master bonus, soul energy release, Dian passive (small but it's there), Lugh passive and Berith passive. I was also gonna throw in accessories and Shamash's 3rd ability, but I'm not sure if those buff just the cap or both or not.


Sooo that one doesn't really count for increasing the break point, if there's any kind of argument to be had there.

I've already pointed out that ascension tends to raise not lower the break point and also given you multiple examples of where the break point is binding, so I'm just going to reiterate:


If you don't have Atum, don't turtle or don't even use ascension, just ignore this information.

Also, amended my original post:


If you notice any typos or numerical errors, let me know and I will correct them. All other suggestions such as layout and color scheme EDIT: and how or what information is presented will be ignored - if you dislike both JStar's and my layout, go make your own please.

[Dejnov]

I only remember doing this with Abou, who had special atk that scaled like pride. I forgot the exact details, but I did find a build where Abou + some amount of vigor (I think it's just 1 SR replacing 1 SR disaster hammer) suffers at most a few % loss in dmg relative to St. Nick or Barong, but retains a lot of the upside at low HP.


I apologize; I must have posted it in discord in discussions with div about potential capabilities. I'll repost (slightly hijack) in your thread here so that it's located at the point of question.

The graph is for assault (y-axis) over hitpoints (x-axis). The range of hit points is 100 to 0 and the range of assault is 5.4 to 3. The red line is a full FLB assault grid. I phantom weapon and 9 assault Large (21%) weapons. The green line is a shamash phantom weapon grid. Shamash adds pride on FLB to assault medium (5 weapons to make the phantom grid work). The blue line is the vishnu wheel grid (5 weapons plus a phantom glaive). It shows the potential for a vigor grid. The black line is a combo grid where you now use 3 shamash books and 2 vishnu glaives to balance out the loss/gain from both over the range of hitpoints. You're gains are 'smoothed' out over the range of hitpoints and show the potential for a mixed weapon set grid. It emphasizes the ability of pairing vigor/pride to keep your assault gain above just the best single assault grid. The second set of graphs show a set of pride and/or vigor weapons replacing an assault weapon of similar caliber. This is harder to work with (and that'll show in the graph) and that there is now no obvious 'winner' as they are straight trade off weapons, but combining pride and vigor together mitigates either skills disadvantages. This allows someone to populate weapons with pride and vigor into their grid as substitutes for a pure assault grid as temporary replacements for the triple weapon skills that are available later on.

The triple skill weapons from the Guardian raids will not be good as the vishnu/glaive combos (Hime weapons) as they lack FLB, but they won't be as bad as the second set where you're replacing assault with either vigor or pride. They'll definitely be better, but it won't be the same level of overpower as vishnu glaives/shamash books or mammon guns (etc.) that Hime weapons can achieve.

Enjoy!!


Dejnov.

13038


13039

[Slashley]

... I don't know why you must make ascension sound like one of the worst skills ever, --That (questionable) honor belongs to Elaborate, hands down.

That doesn't mean that Ascension is particularly good, though. I touched upon this in another thread lately, but to expand, here are requirements to make Ascension be a worthy stat:
1. You need to have Hime(s) who can make use out of it. Technically everyone has Andro, but then you run into:
2. You need to build a team with that/those specific Hime, without making your team suck.
3. Content needs to be the sort where having Heals makes a difference, ie. not a joke in difficulty for you (since if it is too easy, then you're just wasting Grid budget on something that does nothing for you). This might not be a big point since it's easy content that you clear anyway, why does it matter? The answer here is time taken.
4. Content needs to be healable (unlike say current Light Rag or AQ5 last boss).

ALL FOUR are required to make Ascension into a good stat. #1 is pure RNG (outside of MTs), #2 will probably need synergies (such as Thunder Aphro-Dian), and even if you clear those hurdles... #3 and #4 will constantly fluctuate, meaning that your hard work can go straight down the drain just because the content has changed. What should be noted is that I think DMM currently has like... five teams per element now? So building highly specialized teams will stop being an issue. Even after 6x Farming builds and 6x Burst Hour builds, you still have a whopping 18 highly specialized teams left, and I think you can even give them names so that you won't forget just what exact niche that team fills. At least, I hope that's a thing.
Patch notes-kun where are you...

Anyway. These four things make me veeeery iffy towards Ascension. Do I love my Light Grid that I use to heal Dark Rags? Yes. But that just means that #3 and #4 are currently just right, which might not be the case one week from now (Dark Olympia coming out). And, even though my Light Grid does great things, it outright prevents me from ever MVPing Dark Rag. With great Heals comes a great price, I guess I could say.
Though my lack of proper team certainly doesn't help. AAB Frey carry against content that doesn't really Rage is obviously not very ideal.


tl;dr; Is it possible to make Ascension into a good stat? Yes, yes it is. Is it as easy as just slapping some Ascension weapons in your Grid? Hell no it is not. Just like with Vigor, have a fucking plan.
-- but saying that it is a useless stat for wind? There is Azazel AW and she is definitely MT-worthy and has team-wide 300 energy drain and 500 regen - ascension works on both.--Ah, shit. You're right, I should've remembered the one-(wo)man Wind core. Yeah, no problem with Ascension there, Azazel clears problems #1 and #2 easily.

I'm uh, willing to blame Nutaku for withholding Azazel Awakening for my derp there if you are?
Didn't want to wade into this part of the debate, but I can't help but think that you're implicitly assuming that players don't get better over time --I don't understand when I ever said anything about that?

The problem here isn't carrying Olympia raids - it's about outright time. Assuming Olympia are Rag-ish (and by that I mean, clear in about 10 minutes and drop 0.5 Globes), by leeching three raids at the same time you can earn 1.5 Globes per 10 minutes. This makes one Globe cost you ~6 minutes. Dejnov is making it sound like gathering up for 175 Globes on a monthly basis is easy, but that's ~19.5 hours per month. Now, that's perfectly manageable, being just ~40 minutes per day (of doing absolutely nothing else but farming Olympias). But, as we get more of them, you're gonna be farming multiple elements. Four elements are already ~78 hours a month, ~2.5 hours per day - EVERY day. Plus doing all the other stuff you're "expected" to run in Kamihime, like farming T2 Cores, Regalias, GO and AQs. That gets pretty rough, pretty fast.

Realistically speaking, you're going to be farming one weapon during the first rush of each element. Maybe two. But thinking about Grids with 5+ of the same Olympia weapon will effectively require you to drop other elements. And I think that should certainly be part of the discussion - root your expectations in reality.

And then there are people like Voodoo who will probably farm one MLB of each of the weapons per month until they have like eight of each - just because they can. But chances are pretty high anyone who is reading this is NOT one of those people.
You are right, Sol AW's ability buffs both, so that wasn't a good example. But other than Andro's weapon, there's also Andro/Cassio/Vivian master bonus, soul energy release, Dian passive (small but it's there), Lugh passive and Berith passive. I was also gonna throw in accessories and Shamash's 3rd ability, but I'm not sure if those buff just the cap or both or not.Yes, everything should go into the same 200% cap - that should be a hard cap that encompasses all methods. I don't have Berith or Lugh to test those, though.

By the way, Andromeda's passive and Master Bonus are a complete mystery to me. They certainly don't have any effect on the healing cap. Simple proof, Andromeda heals 1600 by default and hard caps at 4800. 1600 * 3 = 4800. If Andromeda healed for 1500 by default with her passive and/or Master Bonus bringing it to 1600, then the Heal should cap at 4500...
So, the entire Master Bonus and that passive are entirely wasted. What a shame.
All other suggestions such as layout and color scheme EDIT: and how or what information is presented will be ignored --Question.

If you have zero interest in feedback, criticism and discussion, why even post this thing on these public forums? Wouldn't it be more in line to just post to some Discord buddygroup and be happy in that social bubble?

[dreamlitz]

I'm uh, willing to blame Nutaku for withholding Azazel Awakening for my derp there if you are?

I don't disagree with your points about ascension being largely situational, I was just annoyed at the comment about it being useless for wind, but it didn't seem to be intentional, so my bad for overreacting. Taco with their original game nonsense...


Realistically speaking, you're going to be farming one weapon during the first rush of each element. Maybe two. But thinking about Grids with 5+ of the same Olympia weapon will effectively require you to drop other elements. And I think that should certainly be part of the discussion - root your expectations in reality.

I agree if you want 5+ of the same weapon in like 5-6 months, it will be pretty rough unless you neglect other stuff (or unless your union is so strong that you squish these things in a few minutes.) If you don't mind waiting though, you can stockpile your globes and just buy like 2 copies per month for almost half the cost (100 globes total for a full MLB vs. 175 for 4 copies per month.) It'll take you twice as long to get there, but yeah, it's a tradeoff, this game seems to punish you whenever you want to rush. Maybe that's not what Dejnov meant by marathon, I'll let him speak for himself, but just wanted to point out that that is an option.


Yes, everything should go into the same 200% cap - that should be a hard cap that encompasses all methods. I don't have Berith or Lugh to test those, though.

Actually, since I mentioned Lugh, I guess I should make sure ppl are aware that Lugh's passive technically isn't the same as regular ascension but a separate multiplier - if you stack up to 200% ascension on your grid and you put normal series accessories on her, it heals for 2100 not 1050 - i.e. it's 350 * (1 + 200% ascension) * (1 + 100% Lugh passive) = 2100, not 350 * (1 + min(200%, 200% ascension + 100% passive)) = 1050. Full disclosure - I was not the tester of this, but I have seen the screenshot of the test, and I have seen normal series heal more than 1050 on my Lugh before so it's consistent with my experience.

I haven't tested Berith, not sure if she's the same.


By the way, Andromeda's passive and Master Bonus are a complete mystery to me. They certainly don't have any effect on the healing cap. Simple proof, Andromeda heals 1600 by default and hard caps at 4800. 1600 * 3 = 4800. If Andromeda healed for 1500 by default with her passive and/or Master Bonus bringing it to 1600, then the Heal should cap at 4500...
So, the entire Master Bonus and that passive are entirely wasted. What a shame.

Hmm, you're right, I think I misunderstood what the master bonus is supposed to do then. Energy release raises the cap though, at least it did the last time I tested it, which admittedly was many many months ago.

Also, for those who are interested in Atum's heal, I just tested last night that Atum's heal is indeed only 20% with 3000 cap - so you need 15k hp to take full advantage of it. Also, it appears that heal accessories raises both the cap and heal % and will work really well for Atum, 'cos with like just two +5% heal, you're at 30% heal with 3300 cap, so the breakpoint drops to 11k whereas normal ascension weapons actually raises the breakpoint. This is important if you use Atum to heal Lugh as Lugh's passive does not seem to circumvent the heal % - very very niche situation pertinent to two specific SSRs, please just ignore if you don't have or don't plan to get those himes. I just put information out there that I think is interesting, not necessarily 'cos I think it's helpful to a lot of ppl.


Question.

If you have zero interest in feedback, criticism and discussion, why even post this thing on these public forums? Wouldn't it be more in line to just post to some Discord buddygroup and be happy in that social bubble?

Honestly, I just post stuff that I thought might be interesting to others. I do amend stuff based on feedback, but only if I agree with it as well - I mean, this is a hobby, not like contract work I'm being paid for or something. I do acknowledge my errors, but most of the continuing criticisms in this case seem to revolve around whether the ascension heal % and the pride multiplier are useful enough information to be worth listing out, not whether or not I got something wrong. I have already listed multiple reasons why I did what I did but I can't please everyone unfortunately. Some of this feels less like discussion and more like a personal attack on where one stands on selective vs completeness when presenting information and it's just getting exhausting.

[Dejnov]

That doesn't mean that Ascension is particularly good, though. I touched upon this in another thread lately, but to expand, here are requirements to make Ascension be a worthy stat:
1. You need to have Hime(s) who can make use out of it. Technically everyone has Andro, but then you run into:
2. You need to build a team with that/those specific Hime, without making your team suck.
3. Content needs to be the sort where having Heals makes a difference, ie. not a joke in difficulty for you (since if it is too easy, then you're just wasting Grid budget on something that does nothing for you). This might not be a big point since it's easy content that you clear anyway, why does it matter? The answer here is time taken.
4. Content needs to be healable (unlike say current Light Rag or AQ5 last boss).

ALL FOUR are required to make Ascension into a good stat. #1 is pure RNG (outside of MTs), #2 will probably need synergies (such as Thunder Aphro-Dian), and even if you clear those hurdles... #3 and #4 will constantly fluctuate, meaning that your hard work can go straight down the drain just because the content has changed. What should be noted is that I think DMM currently has like... five teams per element now? So building highly specialized teams will stop being an issue. Even after 6x Farming builds and 6x Burst Hour builds, you still have a whopping 18 highly specialized teams left, and I think you can even give them names so that you won't forget just what exact niche that team fills. At least, I hope that's a thing.


Anyway. These four things make me veeeery iffy towards Ascension. Do I love my Light Grid that I use to heal Dark Rags? Yes. But that just means that #3 and #4 are currently just right, which might not be the case one week from now (Dark Olympia coming out). And, even though my Light Grid does great things, it outright prevents me from ever MVPing Dark Rag. With great Heals comes a great price, I guess I could say.

tl;dr; Is it possible to make Ascension into a good stat? Yes, yes it is. Is it as easy as just slapping some Ascension weapons in your Grid? Hell no it is not. Just like with Vigor, have a fucking plan.

I'm uh, willing to blame Nutaku for withholding Azazel Awakening for my derp there if you are?I don't understand when I ever said anything about that?

There are now three teams that can run ascension in their grids and really don't sacrifice large amounts of fire power. Thunder has Marduk, Taphro, and Dian Cecht, Wind has Azzazel and Gaia, and Light has Sol. I'm not sure about Dark, Fire, and Water as I don't main them and am unfamiliar with their skill sets. Both Thunder and Wind has a Hime(s) that brings group regeneration AND firepower to the mix and are considered core to their operation. Ascension weapons (in the third skill) are very valuable for these grids. For Light, Sol is still considered a fairly essential character, since you have no reasonable source of damage cut. Ascension upgrades are essential if you want to sustain. Being able to sustain is how you get MVP in Dark Rags/Content.




The problem here isn't carrying Olympia raids - it's about outright time. Assuming Olympia are Rag-ish (and by that I mean, clear in about 10 minutes and drop 0.5 Globes), by leeching three raids at the same time you can earn 1.5 Globes per 10 minutes. This makes one Globe cost you ~6 minutes. Dejnov is making it sound like gathering up for 175 Globes on a monthly basis is easy, but that's ~19.5 hours per month. Now, that's perfectly manageable, being just ~40 minutes per day (of doing absolutely nothing else but farming Olympias). But, as we get more of them, you're gonna be farming multiple elements. Four elements are already ~78 hours a month, ~2.5 hours per day - EVERY day. Plus doing all the other stuff you're "expected" to run in Kamihime, like farming T2 Cores, Regalias, GO and AQs. That gets pretty rough, pretty fast.

Realistically speaking, you're going to be farming one weapon during the first rush of each element. Maybe two. But thinking about Grids with 5+ of the same Olympia weapon will effectively require you to drop other elements. And I think that should certainly be part of the discussion - root your expectations in reality.

My own initial interest is only 2 thunder guns (potentially 3) and 1 water lance (potentially 3) as an initial investment and upgrade to my current grid. The labyrinth water lance may also reduce the number I need (or me finally transitioning to a glaive grid for water). I might think of 5 thunder hammers as slot fillers to build a thunder hammer grid in the near future, but they wouldn't be used long term and would be swapped out for other Hime weapons. So I basically need a grand total of 3 initially and 6 probably in the far future. Seems damn easy to do for a vet.

My initial point is that if you're not a veteran, you can run these raids and pick up weapons to upgrade your grids in place of advent or union weapons. If you're in that boat, you'll have to focus on a single element (every journeyman player has to anyways) and these are fine to get you that solid first grid. After that, these are also fine replacements to flesh out your other grids. For veteran players, these are fine to tailor your grid to phantom weapon combos that were not possible earlier (without having to waste dollars on miracle tickets). For those who are ticketing their grid (specific OP Hime weapons); these are not going to find a big place in their grid, but neither did Advent, Union or most Hime weapons. Whales can safely ignore, veterans will tailor a small amount into their grids to mostly pick up vigor, and journeyman will focus on one or two elements that they absolutely need to finish/augment their main grid for clearing content.

I actually don't know why I had to spell this out... as it's always assumed. The needs of the player and effort involved predicate how or what you can do with any advice. To say that the advice isn't correct or valuable as it isn't immutable in all situations and for all players is a non-argument. That is always the case. To have such disclaimers over each and every piece of advice given on a forum so that everyone can cover their ass smacks me as over-lawyering the situation... and you do know who is the first group to be killed in every social uprising...:silly:



Dejnov.

Disclaimer: The above information is not intended to be grid investment advice. It is for informational purposes only, you should not construe any such information or other material as legal, tax, investment, financial, or other advice. Nothing contained in any of my posts constitutes a solicitation, recommendation, endorsement, or offery by Dejnov or any third party service provider to buy or sell any securities or weapon grid investment instruments in this or in any other jurisdiction in which such solicitation or offer would be unlawful under any grid investment laws of such jurisdiction.

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Happy Slashley!!!

[Slashley]

So, now that a loooooooooot of time has passed (what, nine months?) my Phul Gun and Ophiel Lance grids are shaping up. And I have to admit... damn that is some impressive stuff.

It is fully possible to do great damage even when debuffs don't land. And when debuffs DO land... you're hitting damage caps. Which is fun to watch. While it does requires VERY specific stuff, such as multiple healers preferably and certain type of content... well, luckily, the most grindy content in the game just happens to fit into that certain type of content. That is to say, the raids.

Such a shame that they don't offer the same options to the rest of the elements, really. I don't understand why didn't they make same skillset weapons for all elements. But oh well. I guess Vigor grids are a privilege of exactly two elements (assuming you drew a healer or two for that element), except for omegawhales who can use Hime weapon Grids.

[Dejnov]

Ophiel Lance and Phul Gun are some of the best choices for a fairly free to play grid. I also believe that Wind with the Bethor Bows and Glaives and Dark with their Gun are also great choices (second tier due to pride based and not vigor based). Only Light and Fire didn't get great standout weapons from the release of Guardians (they're choices aren't bad, but more meh).

From a weapon skill optimal choice structure for the eight weapons you can slot into your grid (excluding Soul weapon and phantom weapon) is 8 assault skills, 3 exceed skills, 4 ascension skills, 4 vigor skills and 4 defender skills (due to no exceed, vigor, assault weapon choices).

That gets you nearly max exceed overcap, nearly max ascension overcap and 32-40% vigor (depending on weapon choice), while maintaining full assault and getting some minor defender. Hitpoints should mostly come from the Eidolon grid/Accessories near end game; some effort from weapons is always appreciated though.

From the above list, only water and thunder have a chance of doing that skill selection for free (due to the ophiel lance and phul gun alone); while, I believe, only Light can do it from a full phantom weapon selection option (with Light using Poseidon and Tishtrya lances) mostly due to the Tish lance.


Dejnov.

[AlterX]

For F2P grids that just started on August (Mean Missing every event weapon), Is light Staff worth getting for?
and if you already traded for Ophiel Lance monthly, would it be good to also trade for Ophiel Axe? Both looks good

[Dejnov]

For F2P grids that just started on August (Mean Missing every event weapon), Is light Staff worth getting for?
and if you already traded for Ophiel Lance monthly, would it be good to also trade for Ophiel Axe? Both looks good


Ophiel Lance is much better than the Ophiel Axe as the Phantom Lance is a better grid to build. Axe's aren't bad, just not as good as the lance.


Dejnov.

[Slashley]

The problem with the Lance is that it has no HP. This makes you extremely squishy. So running 5x Lance + Phantom Lance + 3x Axe would not be a bad thing...
... if you could somehow fit and Exceed or two in there. But Water has always had Exceed trouble, even more now that Sloth isn't available.

[AlterX]

Right, maybe 1 or 2 Axe wouldn't hurt then.

Light guardian weapons is kinda on the so-so side, but Since I am chasing all 6 elements, Shold I trade for light staff? Already traded 2x Glaives.

[Slashley]

Vigor without Assault is not particularly good.

Mind you that Kamihime is a marathon game. You will not get an amazing Grid in a small amount of time no matter how hard you try. If you burn yourself out at an early stage, you'll never strong.

[AlterX]

Yes, certainly you re right, Everything is kinda directly or indirectly time-gated, Starting from Shop reset monthly and resources from event.
Getting shingen would take like 2-3 months fastest unless there Special soul package that can be bought ,which i have not see.

I just want to min maxing the progress so I could built a better grid in short-term. I am building all 6 elements but only trade 2 guardian weapons each type (cost 20 and 30, 50 is a bit much)

[Jessa]

Uhhhh, you're have hundo (140%), right? It's not a bad thing to aim for all elements, but still is better to concentrate on one, so I would aim for 4 (or 8, if you're going water/wind) weapons per month for main element and whatever you manage to do for others.

[AlterX]

Uhhhh, you're have hundo (140%), right? It's not a bad thing to aim for all elements, but still is better to concentrate on one, so I would aim for 4 (or 8, if you're going water/wind) weapons per month for main element and whatever you manage to do for others.

Hello there, I am blessed with Managarmr and Belial, but no 140% yet, and I have not Mtix for Anubis since there is no light event recently.

So far within this month, I have traded 16 Guardians weapon, 4 for wind and water, the rest 2 each. I could see the argument to go for max amount, but that would be kinda too much, since I am New and have not unlock Shingen, it would be easier after Shingen. I do have the resources to trade for the 3rd weapons, but decide rather not and just save for next reset.

Another reason is my Hundo is fire and light, which after I read a lot from this thread, does not have a really viable Guardian weapon options, only exceed and assault which 2-3 Max due to cap.

[Jessa]

Oh, yeah, fire/light weps not that awesome. Well, keep at it and don't burn yourself out, i assume.