Slashley
05-01-2020, 05:30 AM
So, uh, yeah. I've been meaning to write this for... uh, three months now? And I not only one day off, not two, but whopping four days off. So I can actually get shit done for a change!!!
First off. Please notice that I am not a huge fan of turtling myself, and only do it inside higher floors of Tower. Meanwhile, dreamlitz specializes in it, and wrote his version here. (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/5022-tower-megatread-post152914.html#post152914) You may want to take his word over mine just because of sheer experience. Still, he didn't really go into WHY it works, so I'm writing this.
The basic setup
This is what you should bring in order to succeed in turtling: Equip a -20% or higher damage cut Eidolon as your main Eidolon. Here are your options: Against Fire: Fire SR Surtr (-25% each) Against Water: Water R Siren/Water R Naga (-20% each) Against Wind: Wind SR Gandharva (-25% each) Against Thunder: Thunder SR Aji-Dahaka (-25% each) Against Light: R Slime (-20% each) Against Dark: None available, so this tactic isn't possible against Dark. Sorry!A thing to note! As you can see, you use the same element Eidolon against the same element. This is usually not true in Kamihime - you usually use Water against Fire for example. Here, you fight Fire with Fire. Take a -20% or higher damage cut Eidolon as your Friend Eidolon, same list applies. Equip two MLB SR Kaisers (-20% 3/8 turns) and one 0-Star SSR Kaiser (-30% 2/8 turns) of elemental advantage. Soul should either be Joan or Andromeda, but more on that later. One or more Hime with team-wide damage cut or heal abilities, but more on that later.And that's the basics. For the passive Eidolons, all of these are available from Gem Gacha. The SRs are fairly rare, but you can find them. Use Eidolon Orbs to limit break them if you need to. The SR Kaisers are only available in Premium Gacha (either Jewels or Premium Tickets... or real money). Use Eidolons Orbs to limit break them if you need to. And lastly, the SSR Kaiser is extremely rare in Premium Gacha or available for a whopping 10k Eidolon Orbs per element (once each). Oh yeah, and notice that SSR Kaiser is -40% at 2-Stars and -50%(!) at 4-Stars - though most players don't need to worry about this.
Now then. First, let's talk about WHY this works.
The why - why does this work?
I'm not sure how to best explain this. So I'll try multiple ways of explaining the same thing. Maybe one of them will click with you?
Back in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King, the developers did a little bit of an oopsie. Basically, the introduced extra tiers of gear into the expansion that they didn't plan for, which meant that the numbers... kinda broke the game. For example, until late, all four tanking classes were about equal when it came to tanking. But, later in the expansion, the two Shield wielding classes became far superior. Why? Because the numbers grew too large. Specifically, shit broke down when the values of Dodge+Parry+Shield Block hit 100%. Dodge and Parry meant zero damage, and this was about equal for all tanks. However, only Shield using classes could Shield Block, which was "just" a flat number of damage reduced. This doesn't seem a big deal... until it happened EVERY time. Suddenly, two tank types were literally guaranteed to take less damage than the two other types. This was my first introduction to the wonderful world of percentages, and why the numbers 50% and 100% are extremely dangerous in some situations.
Coming back to Kamihime damage reductions. Let's say you have -50% from your Eidolon passives, like double Surtr. Now, when you use -20% from SR Kaiser, how much less damage do you take? When you jump from -50% to -70%, you're actually reduced the incoming damage by 40%. Now how did that happen? It's because once you get past -50% reduction, any additional damage reduction gets far stronger.
Let's have a look at some different scenarios. Let's say a boss hits you for 1000 damage normally.
At -0%, you take 1000 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 900 damage, which is a 10% damage reduction.
At -10%, you take 900 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 800 damage, which is a ~11% damage reduction.
At -20%, you take 800 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 700 damage, which is a ~13% damage reduction.
At -30%, you take 700 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 600 damage, which is a ~14% damage reduction.
At -40%, you take 600 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 500 damage, which is a ~17% damage reduction.
At -50%, you take 500 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 400 damage, which is a 20% damage reduction.
At -60%, you take 400 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 300 damage, which is a 25% damage reduction.
At -70%, you take 300 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 200 damage, which is a ~33% damage reduction.
At -80%, you take 200 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 100 damage, which is a 50% damage reduction.
At -90%, you take 100 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 0 damage, which is a 100% damage reduction.... huh. That same -10% sure behaves differently depending on how much you already had. Especially take note of how how quickly things escalate once you go past 50%.
If things still don't click, don't worry. I am bad at explaining it. The important bit for you to understand is, STACKING SHIT IS GOOD.
The how - how exactly to do this?
So, you have your Kaisers in your Grid and you have -40%/-50% passive reduction. In addition, you should have one or two Hime who have SOME kind of damage cut to the entire team. It doesn't need to be much, even -15% can be all you need! More and/or higher damage cuts is obviously better.
These are the forms of damage cuts, and whether or not they stack with their own type:
Eidolon passive Elemental resist, you should have -40% or -50% from this.
Elemental resist from burst effects or Eidolons. Does not stack. You should have -20% or more from this at all times once your Kaisers come online.
Elemental resist from Kamihime. Does not stack, but does stack with burst effects or Eidolons despite having the same icon!
"A frame" damage cuts, these are by far the most common types. For example, Joan has this. These stack as much as you want.
Reflect. Does not stack, and is rarely available team-wide. Still good to keep in mind, as for example Hercules has this for herself.Mix and match this list to reach up to -100% damage reduction! The goal is to have at least -85% up for every single Overdrive the boss does (this number can vary depending on boss). The further away you are from this goal, the more heals you will need. The further above you are of this goal, the less heals you need. After all, who needs heals if you don't take any damage after turn 8 thanks to your -100% damage reduction? Just make sure nobody can die during those first eight turns or things can go badly south though!
So yeah, the hardest part is surviving the first eight turns, since this is where you get your Kaisers online. You jump from -40%/-50% to -60%/-70% at all times. Which is a HUGE boost. And remember, when you use your SSR Kaiser, you have an additional -10% up. Until then... well, here is the thing.
KNOW YOUR ENEMY.
I'm not saying you need to exactly math out how much damage reduction you need, but, it helps. If you can't bring a team that has -100% at all times, the better you estimate your enemy's damage output, the "weaker" of a team you can bring. For example, if a boss has 3 Orbs, chances are all you need is one Hime with a low damage cut ability. Because you just need to activate that during Overdrive turns and you'll be nigh-immune to everything thrown at you. Then just heal up the damage from the second one, and your can reduce the third one with that one Hime again. But if a boss has low orbs - especially 1! - you'll need multiple Hime to cover yourself for every single turn, to reach at least -85% for EVERY Overdrive. Higher is obviously better and allows you to heal up better.
There are two more reasons to know your enemy. One, damage reductions from #1, #2 and #3... are specific to only ONE element. If there is an off-element boss - or a on-element boss that deals damage outside of their own element! - these damage cuts don't do anything. And as you hopefully have realized by now, stacking stuff is what makes this work. So when you lose a huge chunk of your damage cuts... you can get pretty fucked. If these are the case, make sure you bring plenty of #4 types and stack them instead, but chances are you simply cannot reach enough of those. Secondly... enemy cast debuffs. Now, the good part about damage reduction #1, #2 and #3 is that they also give you higher chance to resist debuffs from that element mob, so you probably won't get hit by Dooms OR DoTs when you stack enough. BUT. They can go through, which can spell disaster as DoT damage is not reduced by damage cuts. If the enemy has debuffs, make sure to bring a plan for these IF they go through! That means either Cleanse or more heals. There also other very problematic debuffs such as Exhaustion or Ability Lock.
And finally, about your Soul. Both Andromeda and Joan can work. Joan brings Regen, which isn't usually much... but the stronger your damage cuts are, the more that Regen does work for you. Let's say your team reaches -90% damage cut every turn. This makes Joan's regen effectively 10 times more powerful, thus healing for 2500 per turn. Kind of. That kind of thinking can help you calculate how much healing you need to bring. And remember - Joan has a whopping 40% damage cut even without HP Soul weapon, which will make you immune to one Overdrive every six turns! That helps a lot as well. Meanwhile, Andromeda brings significantly stronger heals, but can't make you negate Overdrives. Which one you should bring depends on how well you know your enemy and what kind of a team you can field. Andromeda is probably the safer bet, due to the fact that you'll be fighting for a long, long, long time when turtling. And heals help you mitigate problems if you make a little mistake like forget to activate a Kaiser.
Oh, and a final note about Atk debuffs or Def Up buffs. Don't worry about them. -50% Atk doesn't really matter much when you're already taking -85% damage. Does it help? Of course it does. But literally ANY damage cut is stronger at this point, so bench those -Atk Hime. And Def Up... ... well, it helps, but the damage it saves is extremely insignificant. Don't bother with Joan's stacking MEX for example.
The when - when to do this?
Honestly?
Don't.
Seriously, it's hardly ever worth it. Turtling is extremely slow and can take you even hours depending on content. It is far better to adopt strats where you kill your enemy before they kill you, which is faster and takes significantly less effort from you. However... there are times when you simply aren't strong enough to clear something without turtling down. In this case? Ask yourself the question: "Is it worth it?"
If your answer is "yes", then go ahead and turtle up. Something being "worth it" is always a personal preference, and if you really, REALLY want those 50 raid tickets for soloing an event raid Ragnarok, then go for it. Just be mindful of the one hour time limit, okay? For single player content, you can take ALL the time you need. You can even take breaks if you need to, Kamihime doesn't forget your progress even if you come back a few weeks later (notice: _some_ maintenances may wipe your single player progress). So just closing your client and going out for a few hours will still allow you to just pick up where you left.
... phew. Hopefully, that'll help somebody do something they couldn't do before. Is it going to be worth it for them? Eh, probably not. But at least they have the option to.
A huge thanks to dreamlitz for bringing this way of play up multiple times. I'm sure he didn't pioneer it - people on DMM probably did or maybe even GBF players long, long before that - but nonetheless, I wouldn't have thought about it without him.
Too bad these forums are dead now, and discussions like these are long gone now. For example, nobody has a posted a single word about the new Skill Checker-kun event despite that having run for over a week now. Which is a huge shame as forums are simply the best way to communicate ideas... not Discord.
:frown:
First off. Please notice that I am not a huge fan of turtling myself, and only do it inside higher floors of Tower. Meanwhile, dreamlitz specializes in it, and wrote his version here. (https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-project/5022-tower-megatread-post152914.html#post152914) You may want to take his word over mine just because of sheer experience. Still, he didn't really go into WHY it works, so I'm writing this.
The basic setup
This is what you should bring in order to succeed in turtling: Equip a -20% or higher damage cut Eidolon as your main Eidolon. Here are your options: Against Fire: Fire SR Surtr (-25% each) Against Water: Water R Siren/Water R Naga (-20% each) Against Wind: Wind SR Gandharva (-25% each) Against Thunder: Thunder SR Aji-Dahaka (-25% each) Against Light: R Slime (-20% each) Against Dark: None available, so this tactic isn't possible against Dark. Sorry!A thing to note! As you can see, you use the same element Eidolon against the same element. This is usually not true in Kamihime - you usually use Water against Fire for example. Here, you fight Fire with Fire. Take a -20% or higher damage cut Eidolon as your Friend Eidolon, same list applies. Equip two MLB SR Kaisers (-20% 3/8 turns) and one 0-Star SSR Kaiser (-30% 2/8 turns) of elemental advantage. Soul should either be Joan or Andromeda, but more on that later. One or more Hime with team-wide damage cut or heal abilities, but more on that later.And that's the basics. For the passive Eidolons, all of these are available from Gem Gacha. The SRs are fairly rare, but you can find them. Use Eidolon Orbs to limit break them if you need to. The SR Kaisers are only available in Premium Gacha (either Jewels or Premium Tickets... or real money). Use Eidolons Orbs to limit break them if you need to. And lastly, the SSR Kaiser is extremely rare in Premium Gacha or available for a whopping 10k Eidolon Orbs per element (once each). Oh yeah, and notice that SSR Kaiser is -40% at 2-Stars and -50%(!) at 4-Stars - though most players don't need to worry about this.
Now then. First, let's talk about WHY this works.
The why - why does this work?
I'm not sure how to best explain this. So I'll try multiple ways of explaining the same thing. Maybe one of them will click with you?
Back in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King, the developers did a little bit of an oopsie. Basically, the introduced extra tiers of gear into the expansion that they didn't plan for, which meant that the numbers... kinda broke the game. For example, until late, all four tanking classes were about equal when it came to tanking. But, later in the expansion, the two Shield wielding classes became far superior. Why? Because the numbers grew too large. Specifically, shit broke down when the values of Dodge+Parry+Shield Block hit 100%. Dodge and Parry meant zero damage, and this was about equal for all tanks. However, only Shield using classes could Shield Block, which was "just" a flat number of damage reduced. This doesn't seem a big deal... until it happened EVERY time. Suddenly, two tank types were literally guaranteed to take less damage than the two other types. This was my first introduction to the wonderful world of percentages, and why the numbers 50% and 100% are extremely dangerous in some situations.
Coming back to Kamihime damage reductions. Let's say you have -50% from your Eidolon passives, like double Surtr. Now, when you use -20% from SR Kaiser, how much less damage do you take? When you jump from -50% to -70%, you're actually reduced the incoming damage by 40%. Now how did that happen? It's because once you get past -50% reduction, any additional damage reduction gets far stronger.
Let's have a look at some different scenarios. Let's say a boss hits you for 1000 damage normally.
At -0%, you take 1000 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 900 damage, which is a 10% damage reduction.
At -10%, you take 900 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 800 damage, which is a ~11% damage reduction.
At -20%, you take 800 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 700 damage, which is a ~13% damage reduction.
At -30%, you take 700 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 600 damage, which is a ~14% damage reduction.
At -40%, you take 600 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 500 damage, which is a ~17% damage reduction.
At -50%, you take 500 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 400 damage, which is a 20% damage reduction.
At -60%, you take 400 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 300 damage, which is a 25% damage reduction.
At -70%, you take 300 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 200 damage, which is a ~33% damage reduction.
At -80%, you take 200 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 100 damage, which is a 50% damage reduction.
At -90%, you take 100 damage. If you add a meager -10% on top of that, you take 0 damage, which is a 100% damage reduction.... huh. That same -10% sure behaves differently depending on how much you already had. Especially take note of how how quickly things escalate once you go past 50%.
If things still don't click, don't worry. I am bad at explaining it. The important bit for you to understand is, STACKING SHIT IS GOOD.
The how - how exactly to do this?
So, you have your Kaisers in your Grid and you have -40%/-50% passive reduction. In addition, you should have one or two Hime who have SOME kind of damage cut to the entire team. It doesn't need to be much, even -15% can be all you need! More and/or higher damage cuts is obviously better.
These are the forms of damage cuts, and whether or not they stack with their own type:
Eidolon passive Elemental resist, you should have -40% or -50% from this.
Elemental resist from burst effects or Eidolons. Does not stack. You should have -20% or more from this at all times once your Kaisers come online.
Elemental resist from Kamihime. Does not stack, but does stack with burst effects or Eidolons despite having the same icon!
"A frame" damage cuts, these are by far the most common types. For example, Joan has this. These stack as much as you want.
Reflect. Does not stack, and is rarely available team-wide. Still good to keep in mind, as for example Hercules has this for herself.Mix and match this list to reach up to -100% damage reduction! The goal is to have at least -85% up for every single Overdrive the boss does (this number can vary depending on boss). The further away you are from this goal, the more heals you will need. The further above you are of this goal, the less heals you need. After all, who needs heals if you don't take any damage after turn 8 thanks to your -100% damage reduction? Just make sure nobody can die during those first eight turns or things can go badly south though!
So yeah, the hardest part is surviving the first eight turns, since this is where you get your Kaisers online. You jump from -40%/-50% to -60%/-70% at all times. Which is a HUGE boost. And remember, when you use your SSR Kaiser, you have an additional -10% up. Until then... well, here is the thing.
KNOW YOUR ENEMY.
I'm not saying you need to exactly math out how much damage reduction you need, but, it helps. If you can't bring a team that has -100% at all times, the better you estimate your enemy's damage output, the "weaker" of a team you can bring. For example, if a boss has 3 Orbs, chances are all you need is one Hime with a low damage cut ability. Because you just need to activate that during Overdrive turns and you'll be nigh-immune to everything thrown at you. Then just heal up the damage from the second one, and your can reduce the third one with that one Hime again. But if a boss has low orbs - especially 1! - you'll need multiple Hime to cover yourself for every single turn, to reach at least -85% for EVERY Overdrive. Higher is obviously better and allows you to heal up better.
There are two more reasons to know your enemy. One, damage reductions from #1, #2 and #3... are specific to only ONE element. If there is an off-element boss - or a on-element boss that deals damage outside of their own element! - these damage cuts don't do anything. And as you hopefully have realized by now, stacking stuff is what makes this work. So when you lose a huge chunk of your damage cuts... you can get pretty fucked. If these are the case, make sure you bring plenty of #4 types and stack them instead, but chances are you simply cannot reach enough of those. Secondly... enemy cast debuffs. Now, the good part about damage reduction #1, #2 and #3 is that they also give you higher chance to resist debuffs from that element mob, so you probably won't get hit by Dooms OR DoTs when you stack enough. BUT. They can go through, which can spell disaster as DoT damage is not reduced by damage cuts. If the enemy has debuffs, make sure to bring a plan for these IF they go through! That means either Cleanse or more heals. There also other very problematic debuffs such as Exhaustion or Ability Lock.
And finally, about your Soul. Both Andromeda and Joan can work. Joan brings Regen, which isn't usually much... but the stronger your damage cuts are, the more that Regen does work for you. Let's say your team reaches -90% damage cut every turn. This makes Joan's regen effectively 10 times more powerful, thus healing for 2500 per turn. Kind of. That kind of thinking can help you calculate how much healing you need to bring. And remember - Joan has a whopping 40% damage cut even without HP Soul weapon, which will make you immune to one Overdrive every six turns! That helps a lot as well. Meanwhile, Andromeda brings significantly stronger heals, but can't make you negate Overdrives. Which one you should bring depends on how well you know your enemy and what kind of a team you can field. Andromeda is probably the safer bet, due to the fact that you'll be fighting for a long, long, long time when turtling. And heals help you mitigate problems if you make a little mistake like forget to activate a Kaiser.
Oh, and a final note about Atk debuffs or Def Up buffs. Don't worry about them. -50% Atk doesn't really matter much when you're already taking -85% damage. Does it help? Of course it does. But literally ANY damage cut is stronger at this point, so bench those -Atk Hime. And Def Up... ... well, it helps, but the damage it saves is extremely insignificant. Don't bother with Joan's stacking MEX for example.
The when - when to do this?
Honestly?
Don't.
Seriously, it's hardly ever worth it. Turtling is extremely slow and can take you even hours depending on content. It is far better to adopt strats where you kill your enemy before they kill you, which is faster and takes significantly less effort from you. However... there are times when you simply aren't strong enough to clear something without turtling down. In this case? Ask yourself the question: "Is it worth it?"
If your answer is "yes", then go ahead and turtle up. Something being "worth it" is always a personal preference, and if you really, REALLY want those 50 raid tickets for soloing an event raid Ragnarok, then go for it. Just be mindful of the one hour time limit, okay? For single player content, you can take ALL the time you need. You can even take breaks if you need to, Kamihime doesn't forget your progress even if you come back a few weeks later (notice: _some_ maintenances may wipe your single player progress). So just closing your client and going out for a few hours will still allow you to just pick up where you left.
... phew. Hopefully, that'll help somebody do something they couldn't do before. Is it going to be worth it for them? Eh, probably not. But at least they have the option to.
A huge thanks to dreamlitz for bringing this way of play up multiple times. I'm sure he didn't pioneer it - people on DMM probably did or maybe even GBF players long, long before that - but nonetheless, I wouldn't have thought about it without him.
Too bad these forums are dead now, and discussions like these are long gone now. For example, nobody has a posted a single word about the new Skill Checker-kun event despite that having run for over a week now. Which is a huge shame as forums are simply the best way to communicate ideas... not Discord.
:frown: