Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Light doesn’t have a good enough damage cut for one. Have you ever tried using light in TRag and observe how easily they explode? Thunder and wind have options to cover that where light doesn’t.

What does Thunder have, outside of Raiko's -30% (or Athena against Water)? Because I don't think that -30% is going to do much against something like a loose Thunder Rag.

And what does Wind have, outside of exactly one Hime - Gaia? Yeah, Gaia will buy you two turns against Thunder Rag by herself. But it's one turn against anything that doesn't do single turn.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Does light have absurd orb eating like water does?

Is there any point to this? As much as I entertain the thought of Mordred/Cthulhu/Snow Raph/Dagon/someone team, even at 100% success rate you won't be reaching Overdrive immunity.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Or does it have the team dmg buffing capabilities of Azzy or TPhro Marduk?

Light Nike!

I think the real question is - DOES Light even need such team dmg buffing when they already have such insane DPS machines?

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Those are the questions, while I’ve already proven that dmg wise other elements compare. And in cases, even outdamage.

Sure, there are niches where other elements can surpass Light. So what? That's not the point. The point, you have to go LOOK for those niches because Light overall excels in Hime quality.

Make a list of bad SSR Hime. How many of those are Light? What % of each element's Hime are just awful? You should notice that Light excels far above the others in this regard. And this makes Light easy to main. Which was the question here, now wasn't it?

Light has Shamash and Athena.

Athena provides Cover, individual defense and Damage Cut (25%) every third turn. That's incredibly agile amount of Damage Cut capability if needed.

Shamash provides blob eat on Burst. This, in an end-game Light team, should be every third turn also. In addition to also providing cover, counterattack and intercept. I prefer Shamash as intercept generates burst making Shamash fast (but unlike Berith there's no Rampage to screw over the burst cycle).

As long as you're still running Michael, Tish, Lugh, or Iris as the other three himes, you can have those abilities plus full damage cut, burst on 3, etc.


Dejnov.

Light is strong, and has no weakness, if you're maining just 1 element, this is an ideal element, so rerolling for fluffy is very popular. Dark also has no weakness, but just doesn't have good synergy between it's various parts, and so is not really competitive with other elements (yet).

In terms of strength, most people consider Thunder very high on that list, with wind pretty close by. Fire isn't bad either, water is probably a bit behind though (not as far as dark, mind you). The main issue with these is that you also need to have a decent team of the complementary element (fire for thunder, thunder for fire, water for wind, and wind for water) to cover for your weakness. If you have that, they are by no means weak, however, it's pretty hard to roll for 2 hundo...

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Lol. Not disagreeing that there are other OP himes but as a light main, I feel like I need to defend the honor of light a little here =P

Quite the opposite, dream. Nobody's trying to discredit Light here. Rather, we are trying to not bloat Light more than what it is in reality and discrediting the other elements like a certain somebody else here is doing.

See, when you say Light has versatility as advantage not DPS, you're not thinking endgame. There is a reason why Thunder is currently (and has been for a long time already) considered the most powerful element on DMM right now. Thunder, while not the most versatile element in terms of kit, they still very high up in terms of versatility and most importantly, they have the 'right' versatility. Just look at their party wide assets: BG via Raiko's Zeal, Barrier + Pursuit from Marduk AW (who also deals extra dmg via Echo), THE most powerful healer in game aka DianCecht, refreshable 30% Dmg cut (+ 20% Water cut) via Raiko AW, Affliction Shield on top of a Guaranteed 30% debuff from Samael and most recently, Passive DATA up from Bride Arianrhod's unique gimmick. All of which, have excellent balance of offense and defense for longevity in raids while maintaining high and consistent dmg. The best part, most of these buffs do not require micro as much as Light units do. And if you want some spike dmg for Tower/Dummy scoring, just slap in NewYear Afro with her Party vigor, or Nuwa for her party Crit + dmg cap up (with party DATA for burst effect on top), or super attacker like Perkele (Instant Burst + 200 Burst Gauge + Self Super mode that gives her 200% dmg and other stuff.) These are combinations that Light team simply does not have or able to compete in. Speed is the only thing Light has over Thunder, and that balances out in a way that Light will always be able to hold their own ground as fights drag out by being consistent. But when another's Thunder team is also able to hold their own and charge headstrong through all the enemy mechanics, Light loses out in the long run.


Also, you mentioned holding your own ground against TCat as Light, but then will you be able to do more than just VMVP? At least back in my days before TCat got nerfed, other players Wind team aside, I found the hardest teams to race against to be not Light or Fire, but Thunder, with Wind being my 2nd strongest element after Light.

p.s. Before you attempt the 'Light can be played as single element' argument, I'll just inform you that... a couple Thunder baka that I know over here simply just brute force through Wind raids.... and still do enough dmg to MVP (50~70m dmg).

Let's see what we have here..
So things started from numerous light mains while barely any dark. That is true. Unfortunately, dark seems to be in a bad period regarding their unit upgrades for a long time at DMM, be it a new hime or a previous getting AW or rebalance. Lots of strong self buffers & whatnots, but lacking something that integrate those into a team. They're still the slowest at DMM with their burst cycles.

Light has been hyped & overhyped for about as long as dark had its.. dark period. No wonders on that, they really suddenly rounded up to be an amazing element from basically nothing in a small time span of half year. Starting from Tish + Mike AW until Iris including old units rebalances as well as great new units. The thing one shouldn't forget that it's been almost a year since Iris' release and light didn't get any relevant new unit meanwhile. Sure Michiru is fun to play with due to ridiculous amount of assault bonuses, but that's about all she brings, VBaal sounds like an amazing unit.. until you realize, light has units that already do every of her ability better, talk about wasted potential. She would have been great for any other element. Oh, and Hastur who was never to be seen after her release. All of them limited & no actual improvements to the element.
However, there was still a rebalance for Athena which made her do her tanking job properly. That, and Eros AW who admittedly turned out great.. against debuffing content. That two has been the only improvement since, and that's almost half a year as well.

A year without new units, and half a year without whatsoever improvement. While the result that it's still a top pick as an element despite that talks for itself, it left plenty of opening for other elements to catch up.

Thunder rounded up to be another great overall pick with most himes being useful in a way or another. It already had TAphro+Marduk AW combo at the time light ascended. That combo could bring normal attacks to a ridiculous level due to the combination of vigour+castle with its pursuit above the already high normal attacks and TAphro's barrier helps keeping it up. Not to mention it's also a way to mitigate incoming damage in order to keep vigour going. Then they got an amazing healer - Dian - who does literally everything a healer needs to and in pretty short intervals due to CD refresh on burst. Jupiter got rebalanced to stupid levels from where she started becoming a pretty reliable unit having speed, nuke & party buff.. oh, and echo. Raiko AW became the damage cutter. Above her CD6 DUR2 cut (30% off-element & 50% vs. water) which gets -2CD every burst, she has party-wide zeal to speed up your units and possibly activating her new passive which further decreases the CDs. And a potent 25% atk down. Nuwa can further increase the already ridiculous normal attacks with crit/cap up + rampage, also having atk/def debuff and giving DATA buff to the whole party with her burst. ... I'm getting tired of inputting wiki info here, point being I'm trying to look for a thunder hime without much of a use, but I really have to look, then I find uhh.. Halloween Mike, Mammon utterly useless & Tyr AW, Ymir hard to find a use.

Then we got wind which also been getting more & more potent since and after Azzy AW (for the record, let's go through this most borken unit beside Mike AW again: CD7 DUR5 50% atk/def buff 50% DATA and a meager 5% DoT, and another CD7 DUR5 30% cut, 300 drain, 500 regen, both of them available party-wide). Wind became rather nuke heavy the past months which made them the rulers of the recent short Dummies and probably going to do great at tower as well while their DPS & overall utilities also improved a lot.

Water showing signs of improvement as well still having amazing defensive measures and Diana doing similar job as TAphro, Pluto providing stackable DATA buff (meaning that it also stacks with normal DATA buffs), Shiva AW doing nukes & party damage buffing and Cthulhu AW doing an amazing job at cucking the boss from doing damage and party BG while at it.

Finally, fire.. not changing much, still doing great in the kill before getting killed space whale realm.

Originally Posted by Slashley

And Light probably has similar things to all of the above, all in one element. I'm not saying that Light has any single Hime that can give Thunder Aphro amount of damage output, but you can't run 4x Thunder Aphros. A few, EXACT specimen scattered around the other elements doesn't exactly make them compare to how insane Light is.

Nonsi (and my previous post) already covered most of it, but lemme add in a couple too:

What does Thunder have, outside of Raiko's -30% (or Athena against Water)? Because I don't think that -30% is going to do much against something like a loose Thunder Rag.

Correction: Refreshable 30% general dmg cut + 20% Water cut for 2T, combined with Marduk's Fortress and DianCecht's endless healing... does it look like Thunder needs anything more?

And what does Wind have, outside of exactly one Hime - Gaia? Yeah, Gaia will buy you two turns against Thunder Rag by herself. But it's one turn against anything that doesn't do single turn.

I guess I'll do this since @Nonsensei was never able to tap into the Wind:

Azazel AW - Do I really have to introduce this absolute monster again?
Atum - -3CD + 100% Abi dmg + 50% Abi cap buff, a 750k nuke, and a Target Auto Rez + 100% Dmg cut x 3 times. Oh, and the ability to burst for 4m like Metatron AW. Did I mention the -3CD part?
Ishtar - Spammable nukes. Primary gimmick = Multi-activation Nukes + Normal-Attack-activation Nukes. Oh and not so important 30% A frame Attack down + Def down. Nuke!

Is there any point to this? As much as I entertain the thought of Mordred/Cthulhu/Snow Raph/Dagon/someone team, even at 100% success rate you won't be reaching Overdrive immunity.

Cthulhu AW + Soni- Er... Februus are already enough to completely shut down both FCat and Phaleg for you to cycle your otherwise long CD mitigations i.e. Poseidon. You don't even need BP for this. And that's just the gist of defensive Water, so not too important. We have new toys like Diana, Pluto and Dagda for offense.

I think the real question is - DOES Light even need such team dmg buffing when they already have such insane DPS machines?Sure, there are niches where other elements can surpass Light. So what? That's not the point. The point, you have to go LOOK for those niches because Light overall excels in Hime quality.

Yes, we kinda do actually. Dunno what this 'insane DPS' you talking about though. Afaik, we Light baka are great at being consistent and long-winded but insane? Not even close mang.

Make a list of bad SSR Hime. How many of those are Light? What % of each element's Hime are just awful? You should notice that Light excels far above the others in this regard. And this makes Light easy to main. Which was the question here, now wasn't it?

Sure

:disgustedAmon: Tier:
Light - Satan, Nike
Thunder - Mike

Niche Tier:
Light - Raphy, Hastur
Thunder - Tyr

Victim Tier:
Light - Tsukuyomi
Thunder - Mammon

Hmm... Light and Thunder are about even you know? Didn't mention it but Wind does suffer a bit more in the Power Creep Victim category though.

Originally Posted by nonsensei

Finally, fire.. not changing much, still doing great in the kill before getting killed space whale realm.

But but but... Freyr

:sadpOtato:


Apollo qt

Originally Posted by Slashley

And when it does, that FLB Garuda Deva is amongst the best weapons to have. So, MLB it for the future. You can FLB it when the time comes to level it up. Again, remember to leave yourself with Silver (45) and Gold (25) drops to FLB it!

Not to derail the element comparison discussion, as it is very interesting, but since the FLB for this hammer doesn't currently exist, does that mean it will be introduced without occasion to farm materials again?

Originally Posted by Bear

See, when you say Light has versatility as advantage not DPS, you're not thinking endgame.

Thunder... most importantly, they have the 'right' versatility.

Yes, I still can't wanpan most GO bosses, so I still find light's versatility very helpful. But yeah, I recognize that things change when you progress towards the end-game.

Raiko AW

When does she get the AW? I actually wasn't even aware that she gets an AW (thunder is my worst element, I didn't even read up on all these himes until you and nonsensei pointed them out =P) I actually have Raiko, so maybe I should pay more attention...

The best part, most of these buffs do not require micro as much as Light units do.

Ok, yeah, light IS very clicky...

NewYear Afro with her Party vigor

Yes, her vigor buff is very strong, but isn't she limited? I prefer not planning around limited himes since I don't have the whaling power to make them drop reliably.

Btw, slightly off-topic but, why does no one care about Isis for wind? I actually found her 20% vigor pretty useful in the last tower, and she can soak up dmg to keep everyone else at full health. Maybe not as good as the TAphro + Marduk AW combo, but still a nice dmg boost.

Also, you mentioned holding your own ground against TCat as Light, but then will you be able to do more than just VMVP?

Admittedly no... I usually lose to MVP by about 10-30 mil

p.s. Before you attempt the 'Light can be played as single element' argument, I'll just inform you that... a couple Thunder baka that I know over here simply just brute force through Wind raids.... and still do enough dmg to MVP (50~70m dmg).

That is... impressive... I guess my remaining argument is that I find light 'fun' to play with 'cos it's so easy to build different teams for different bosses. I readily concede that that kind of thinking is sub-optimal for competitive play though

Originally Posted by nonsensei

Let's see what we have here..

Firstly, happy to see you posting here again!

The thing one shouldn't forget that it's been almost a year since Iris' release and light didn't get any relevant new unit meanwhile.

Would it be correct to characterize that the golden age of light peaked around Iris and we are about to see other elements come closer to parity/dethrone light in the coming year? Still waiting for dark to catch up though... Dark Takeminakata looks solid at least, her kit looks similar to Lugh.

VBaal sounds like an amazing unit.. until you realize, light has units that already do every of her ability better, talk about wasted potential.

Is she that bad? On paper, she seems like a good alternative to Athena when you don't need the cover. She's the only limited light hime that I even paid attention to, though I still won't spend anything other than jewels at trying to pull her.

Jupiter got rebalanced to stupid levels from where she started becoming a pretty reliable unit having speed, nuke & party buff.. oh, and echo.

Interesting, I don't hear her mentioned much. It looks like her rebalance doesn't come until early next year if I'm not misreading the wiki?

Originally Posted by Bear

Victim Tier:
Light - Tsukuyomi

Light Tsukuyomi isn't that bad though. Completely outclassed by Lugh and Iris yes, but I won't consider her a 'bad' draw for when you're just starting out. Or is that why she's not in the same category as light Satan and Nike? Sorry, Tsuku was one of my first light SSR and we've been through a lot together, will be sad to see her go

Originally Posted by Crow

Not to derail the element comparison discussion, as it is very interesting, but since the FLB for this hammer doesn't currently exist, does that mean it will be introduced without occasion to farm materials again?

The FLB for Garuda hammer is already available, the thing Slashley pointed out is to farm the necessary event mats in case one doesn't have enough resources to FLB it right away. The event mats are only available in the respective event which makes them "limited". All the other requirements for FLB can be farmed from permanent contents, but if you don't prepare that 45 silver & 25 gold mats while the event is going on, you will be cucked of FLBing it eternall-- err, till the next reprint which is definitely at least over a year away.



Sorry, I won't bother quoting everything, dream.
1. Raiko AW in December.

2. Isis doesn't have enough defensive measures to function as a tank. Doubt she can even tank an entire TCat thunderbolt spam. All she's used for most of the time is a meatshield vigour buffer at Dummies.

3. Yes, I pretty much already depicted light reaching its peak with Iris only having some nice additions later. I think thunder already overtook light in practical stuff at DMM. Maybe not as many & various options as light, but definitely performing better in many scenarios.

4. No. VBaal isn't bad. As I mentioned, she would have been a great unit to any other element. The issue lies at that she has to compete a whole bunch of other borken unit.. and no, she can't really outperform any of them. Maybe as an option to reduce the amount of clicking..? As for Athena, let's not forget that Athena has CD3 cut while VBaal only CD6. That's an extremely big difference.

5. Yeah, Jupiter (2nd) rebalance coming in December (CD8->7 buff, burst buff on heal+BG, GDATA on nuke, echo on burst). First one is already done at Nutaku as well.

6. Tsuku.. isn't great to begin with. Surely, that light res down was much appreciated when she was released, but Lugh/Iris completely murdered her along with Arty. Rebalance saved Arty, but didn't work with Tsuku. Way too long CD for a nuke, and brings nothing to the party other than being a debuff slave which is done better by others.

(7. I don't plan to return here, just poked this discussion coz seen in discord & piqued my interest enough to butt in)

Originally Posted by nonsensei

6. Tsuku.. isn't great to begin with. Surely, that light res down was much appreciated when she was released, but Lugh/Iris completely murdered her along with Arty. Rebalance saved Arty, but didn't work with Tsuku. Way too long CD for a nuke, and brings nothing to the party other than being a debuff slave which is done better by others.

No one else found her AoE blind useful? I found her required on my light teams in the days when GO had mobs. But yeah, rebalance isn't going to save her

(7. I don't plan to return here, just poked this discussion coz seen in discord & piqued my interest enough to butt in)

Oh, too bad...