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  1. #11411

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    I know you wrote a guide on turtling. The only problem with it is that it's full of your preconceived biases and is basically wrong on a ton of shit. You don't actually get how to do turtling correctly and you don't actually understand the true value and power of turtling.
    Cool. If so, why didn't you post so, you know, in the thread itself? You did post in it after all.

    And then the rest of your post is basically:

    1. Talking trash about turtling teams using Exceed. Oh yeah, that sounds like an amazing idea. Please elaborate on how much good Exceed does for you when you're using double DR Eidolons in the turtling thread.
    2. Talking trash about your "achievements" in the game with "damage cut teams." You didn't go into ANY specifics whatsoever, but dude. I can AAB Thunder Rag (after manualing turn1 - using only Azazel's AoE reflect and Frigg's debuff prevention to stop turn1 Exhaustion fucking Azazel up). Not reliably since if it spams Exhaustion ten turns in a row, you're just done. But most of the time. And yet you and a friend of yours can "nearly guarantee it being cleared"? I'm not impressed. I can also AAB solo Aratron (not sure if my Pride Ascension Grid has enough damage output), and Ophiel (well I haven't tried, but with Andro I almost did it, with Ascle's double Dispel it should be doable), and Phaleg (unreliable solo since sometimes the fucker goes for nuke spam). And again, this is ALL AAB, so the closest thing to a "damage cut team" (which you didn't even define) is against Thunder Rag thanks to Azazel being an OP little shit. So anyway, how about you define what a "damage cut team" is and do you AAB with it.
    3. Talking shit about "we can actually use our Damage Cut / Drop Rate teams and still race with the best out there." Dude. You're not using Shingen. You're NOT out-racing ANYONE, not even the best F2P manualing players and much less the biggest manualing whales of Nutaku. This is going to even more transparent once Yori comes around. Please, do explain how your Ascension/Vigor Grid with defensive Hime is going to win over Vigor/Exceed selfish teams with offensive Hime?
    4. Talking about the same thing which I explained in the turtling thread. Yes, that thread goes into detail on exactly why stacking damage cuts work and what it does your healing.
    5. Talking shit about how you have 100% Ascension (at least 3 weapons), 50% Vigor (at least 5 weapons of Vigor(++)!?!) and some Exceed I guess. I mean, if you're boosting your damage with this amazing Vigor, then surely you need Exceed to increase your burst cap, right? And since you said that Assault goes into every weapon... ... how exactly do you fit all of this into a Grid? I don't think that we're quite at the point in the game where anyone can be expected to have a full grid of triple-skill weapons. So yeah, why don't you explain the Grid for this "high damage meta race team" and how exactly does one go about creating said Grid?


    AAB soloed Thunder Rag just now, started right when I read you bragging about it. Took 18 minutes to kill add, first Stun phase happened at ~30m, second Rage phase started with 21m left, kill happened on turn 91 with 6:08 left. Doesn't really matter, what does matter is that soloing this thing is not an achievement after nerfs. And manual duo-ing it is even less of an end-game goal. I'll say it again: turtling or "damage cut" teams are not the end-game goal. They are a temporary tool to be used when you really, REALLY want to clear some content you can't otherwise - yet.

    And please, leave your detailed explanation in the turtling thread. Not some hand-waving about how amazing your team is (without mentioning any details on who) or about how amazing your Grid is (without mentioning anything about what is in there).


    Pictures or it didn't happen, I guess:


    Ascle for heals (I don't do selfish teams), Cu for damage carry, Azazel for reflect (and really what enables this whole thing), Frigg and Cybele for debuffs.

    And my Grid is something awful:

    Three MLB Guardian Glaives, one unfinished Guardian Glaive, MLB Assault/Ascension event Glaive, MLB +99 Phantom Glaive, two FLB Garuda Hammers, FLB +99 Lust weapon for Exceed.

    Wow, there's an Ascension weapon in there! I'd much rather have HP, but for now, it'll have to do to complete the shitty Glaive Grid. And no, there isn't a single Vigor weapon in there. Why? Because unlike in fantasy lala-land, in real Kamihime you use what you have. And Vigor isn't so readily available. Meanwhile, Assault/HP is. Guess what makes the most efficient Grid!



  2. #11412
    Just woke up, thank you.

    for Dark SR: Beelzebub, Tsukuyomi, Balor, Eligos, Pale Rider, Pharol, Nyarlathotep, Bastet, Lu Bu(Ren), Meretseger, Hypnos, Rangda, Proserpina, Ereshkigal, Dark Diana, Volos, Manes, Paimon, Jun'iku(Keifa), Cernunnos, Andhaka, Buer, Pandia, Moros, and Idun.

  3. #11413
    Quote Originally Posted by GabKarol View Post
    Just woke up, thank you.

    for Dark SR: Beelzebub, Tsukuyomi, Balor, Eligos, Pale Rider, Pharol, Nyarlathotep, Bastet, Lu Bu(Ren), Meretseger, Hypnos, Rangda, Proserpina, Ereshkigal, Dark Diana, Volos, Manes, Paimon, Jun'iku(Keifa), Cernunnos, Andhaka, Buer, Pandia, Moros, and Idun.
    You have Idun, Buer, and Cernunnos. You, my friend, are done. You have a completely working damage cut team. And plenty of options on how you want to run it.

    I'd run Idun, Buer, Pluto as a base minimum. This brings heal, damage cut (2/8T 30% and 1/6T 30%), cleanse, and a potion! (It also has attack up 20% and defense down 10%.) I'd scrap the On Element Kaiser, you won't need it (but you can use it if you want to). I'd also not bring Andro (standard damage cut soul) as Buer does her just as well. For your 4th Hime, I'd consider either Lu Bu or Nyarl for defense down (15%). You could also swap Cernunnos for Idun but I wouldn't swap out Buer.
    You have the option of running either Shingen or Hercules in this setup.

    With Shingen you can run Encourage Inspiration and PF but you'll only have 25% defense down. With Hercules you can bring her Axe for 50% defense down and she's an individual heavy hitter. My preference is Shingen, but that's because I favor raids where I'm sure others join and usually bring some defense down ability.

    You also have less need for Nefertem. Idun and Buer are not equivalent to her (as she's in one Hime slot), but they are close enough that you won't miss her terribly. If you are thinking of MTixing a Hime, I'd look to Berith. She's a solid hitter, helps tank (with fortitude) and also gives you a source of Assault/Exceed, if you need those. If you have last year's raid hammers, you might not want to do this as there are other team-wide Himes that can help a damage cut team more than she can. I'd then either pull Thanatos (with defense down and super fast) or Dark Svarog. She's an absolute beast for Dark and also has an Assault/Vigor Axe and will be available in 6 months. You could also look to Erebus with her Vigor as a powerful 4th Hime. Honestly there's a lot of choices you can use and you can pick some strong contenders to help round out the team. I'd prioritize getting 3 sources of exceed however you can, but then go for ascension and vigor to round out your damage cutting.

    I'd still run the gun grid (best free grid right now), but if you get luck (or willing to spend) run Svarog's Axe and Nefertem Staff as your potential end game grid.


    Dejnov.

  4. #11414
    Quote Originally Posted by Slashley View Post
    Cool. If so, why didn't you post so, you know, in the thread itself? You did post in it after all.

    And then the rest of your post is basically:

    Point's 1 through 5 of counter trash talking.

    Alright I apologize, you started the trash talking here and I continued it here. But you are also right, you're not an idiot. What you say is idiotic. I believe we've had this argument for quite awhile, and you intentionally keep missing the synergy inherent in vigor and ascension that goes with a damage cut guide. This is a flaw in your perception, not in the skills. It's readily apparent in the guide you wrote, but it's your guide and I'm not going to own/embellish/correct it. That's your choice. Rather than editing your guide (to eliminate the wrong things you say) or creating another post in your guide, I'll just write my intro that I would have started out a damage cut guide with and correct some of your biases and misconceptions (from a high-level understanding). I will post it here and not in your thread, because a) that's your thread, b) you shit-talked here and not there so I choose to respond here.

    Also your statements about Exceed are just plain idiotic and distracting. They have no basis in any of the damage cut material we've been talking about. Please stop being a pain in the ass by stating something I never said. You definitely want 3 sources of Exceed in a grid built for damage cut. What you don't want is defense or pride as they're not nearly as valuable as vigor and ascension. Please stop with this bullshit distraction. Always assume that I would want and build a grid with 3 sources of exceed. For elements or teams that can't get it currently... them's the break, but I'm not saying that you don't want it. If you can't get it, you need to build with what you can. Just please stop with this train of thinking. Such minor, off track, pedantic counter-arguments that you constantly state is why people hate you... but I'm going to work on making sure that I don't call you an idiot (as that's mean and incorrect) and instead state that those statements are idiotic.


    A How-to Damage Cut Guide for Kamihime:

    What Is It:
    Damage Cut is one of the most powerful abilities in Kamihime. It works as a percentage and basically does two things: a) reduces all damage taken by the percentage amount and b) reduces by the percentage your chance of being afflicted with a resistable debuff. If you achieve 100% damage cut you a) reduce all damage to your Himes (floating damage numbers will be zero when hit) and b) resist any resistable debuff (floating indicator stating miss on an applied debuff). Damage cut as an explicit ability is fairly limited and so most players assume that it's not easy to gain high levels of damage cut. This isn't actually true in Kamihime. There are 3 basic sources for damage cut (with two of them that have two different frames) that are additive, one source that is multiplicative, and one 'hidden' source that is super multiplicative. All told there are 7 unique types of damage cut that you can stack to help get you to that zero damage taken. We'll talk about all of these sources below. Usually for a power that is as powerful as damage cut there is an explicit disadvantage with using it. For a 'defensive' ability the simple idea is that teams that stack damage cut to become super defensive give up offensive capability. This, yet again, in Kamihime is not true. There is a single skill that gives damage cut teams additional damage output over and above basic additive offensive abilities that more than makeup for any perceived loss in damage output. You can have a super tanky super strong team in Kamihime, if you build it right.


    Sources of Damage Cut:
    The three basic sources of damage cut are damage cut, reflection, and elemental resist. Within basic damage cut there are two frames that stack: A-frame and Stacking Frame. Within Elemental Resist there are also two frames that stack: A-frame and Summon Frame. All of these sources stack with each other additively. For example if you have an ability with 10% damage cut, another ability with 20% reflection and the third ability with elemental resist 20% you would have a total damage cut of 50%. Also note that Stacking Frame damage cut also stacks with other sources of Stacking Frame damage cut. Damage cut and Reflect are applicable to all sources of damage, while elemental resist is only applicable to a single element (i.e. fire elemental resist only affects damage from fire sources/monsters). This covers the basic additive sources. Defense is another source of damage cut, but, unlike the others listed here, is multiplicative in nature (and also affects the amount of damage cut given by its reciprocal). If you had 20% defense, you would have an additional 17% damage cut (reduce damage by 1/1.2 or 0.83 damage taken) that would multiply with your other sources of damage cuts. As an example if you had 20% defense up and 20% damage cut from other sources your final damage would be reduced by 1-(0.83 * 0.8) = 1 - 0.66 = 0.34 or 34%. The defense attribute drops off fairly dramatically (it's reciprocal stacks and then it's multiplicative), but it is a source of damage cut and, more importantly, it's applied prior to the super multiplicative damage cut source. So don't intentionally dismiss it or ignore it. Always check to see if it helps and if it's freely available. You can usually find this ability on a Hime/Soul with damage cut; it's there for a reason! It's another source of damage cut (usually constant as opposed to a set number of turns) and is mostly used to help the super multiplicative source of damage cut.
    The last source of damage cut (the super multiplicative source) is just basic healing! You always want strong sources of healing with any damage cut team. Damage Cut multiplies all sources of healing making it an effective 'final' source of damage cut. Consider the following example: You have 10k hit points and are taking 4k in damage per round. If you had nothing else you'd die on turn 3 (first turn of damage your down to 6k hp, second 2k hp, and third turn dead). If you had 50% damage cut you'd be taking 2k damage per round and could survive 5 turns (8k, 6k, 4k, 2k and then zero). If you had 500 hitpoints of healing and no damage cut, you'd also only live for three rounds (6.5k, 3k, zero) and the healing makes no difference. But if you had both the 50% damage cut AND 500 hitpoints of healing, you'd live for 7 turns (8.5k, 7k, 5.5k, 4k, 2.5k, 1k, zero). In essence, your healing is multiplied by the prior damage cut. The 50% damage cut changes your 10% damage cut from healing to 20% damage cut from healing. It's like you have 70% damage cut with both abilities (50% from damage cut and 20% from healing). If you also had an additional 25% defense ability (for 20% damage cut) you would then have an overall damage cut of 1- (0.8 * 0.3) of 76% damage cut. This doesn't seem like a lot more, but as you get to higher amounts of damage cut it stops scaling linearly and starts scaling exponentially. That extra 6% in overall damage cut was basically 25% extra survivability. Stacking as many sources of damage cut and healing is how you make a truly damage resistant team. (As an aside, this is usually the reason our union recommends Andromeda as the go-to soul for a damage cut team versus Joan even though Joan sports damage cut. You really want the healing that Andro has due to its super multiplicative nature with other sources of damage cut. Joan's damage cut isn't constant enough to make it a great source of damage cut. Himes and Eidolons just do it better.)

    There you go. I'd next talk about how Ascension (since it affects healing i.e. the super multiplicative damage cut) is a very very important skill to have in your grid. (In the above example with 25% defense, 50% damage cut, and a 10% healing damage cut, an additional 50% healing isn't an additional 50% healing but really an additional 125% healing or 25% healing damage cut.) Adding an additional 50% healing is just two ascension weapons. And, if you can spare it, getting 100% ascension in your grid into a team that has damage cut is a huge amount of additional damage cut. It brings about the long term survivability that basic damage cut doesn't, we'd talk about Eido sources for damage cut (best source but single element) and Himes (both SSRs and SRs). After that, we'd wrap up with now that you've built the super-resistant damage cut team, how Vigor is the damage enhancement for damage cut teams that allows you to have a higher constant damage output than base assault/pride teams and why you aren't supposed to lose vigor for most of the fight (except on single Himes that get double or triple hit). You now have a potentially meta team build that can hang and potentially clear all content. Lastly, we'd talk about ancillary abilities that are enhanced by damage cut abilities (like affliction resist- pure garden etc.) and how you want to scale that into the team.


    Dejnov.
    Last edited by Dejnov; 05-12-2020 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #11415

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    It's readily apparent in the guide you wrote, but it's your guide and I'm not going to own/embellish/correct it.
    Dude. The way how progress works is conflict. You put two ideas next to each other, you compare them, you adapt, you improve.

    Putting only one idea out there leads nowhere, and "not going to own/embellish/correct it" is the exact opposite of what one should be doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    -- you constantly state is why people hate you --
    P-People hate me? Nobody has ever told me that before... why would they talk behind my back like that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    -- and correct some of your biases and misconceptions (from a high-level understanding).
    --
    Damage Cut is one of the most powerful abilities in Kamihime. It works as a percentage and basically does two things: -- b) reduces by the percentage your chance of being afflicted with a resistable debuff.
    Ah yes, high-level understanding indeed.

    Question. Why don't you go and make a 100% damage cut team WITHOUT any elem res+ buffs (example: Joan, any two of Raiko/Pluto/Snow Raph/Gaia/Karin/Water Osiris/Cernunnos), go fight Bethor. Let me know often in those 100% damage cut turns make you immune to debuffs.

    Or let me save you the bother: none of them. Since damage cuts inherently do NOT give you debuff resistance. 100% damage cut makes you take 0 damage, and taking 0 damage is enough damage to receive debuffs. One specific type of damage cuts - elemental resist - however does. Reach 100% wind resistance specifically and you're immune to Bethor's debuffs. Mix and match 50% of other types of damage cut and 50% of wind res+ and you take 0 damage with 50% less chance of taking a debuff from Bethor.

    You might be mixing things up with the "immune" abilities? These make you take "miss" damage. You cannot be inflicted with debuffs when taking "miss" damage, because "miss" is clearly different from "0", thanks devs!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    Within basic damage cut there are two frames that stack: A-frame and Stacking Frame.
    Example of latter, please? I am unaware of any "stacking" frame damage cuts, unless they're very recent into Kamihime or a thing in the future. But since A-frame already stacks, what's the difference anyway...?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    (i.e. fire elemental resist only affects damage from fire sources/monsters)
    Monsters here is incorrect. The only thing that matters is the element of the attack itself. This is very rare in Kamihime, but for example, previous Tower had a bug where the Water element final boss would hit you with an attack that first hits you with Water and then with Fire. The Fire attack coming from a Water element mob does NOT get reduced by water res+.


    And then... your post kinda pewtered off. You posted before you were finished with the post?


    Well, regardless, can you answer some basic questions, please? Since without the same premise, there cannot be an argument.
    1. What defines what is and what is not a "damage cut team"?
    2. Do you AAB with a "damage cut team"?
    3. How does one build for a "damage cut team" Grid which - I assume since your post is unfinished - strongly relies upon Vigor and Ascension, two largely unavailable weapon skills?

  6. #11416
    Quote Originally Posted by Slashley View Post
    Question. Why don't you go and make a 100% damage cut team WITHOUT any elem res+ buffs (example: Joan, any two of Raiko/Pluto/Snow Raph/Gaia/Karin/Water Osiris/Cernunnos), go fight Bethor.
    You might be mixing things up with the "immune" abilities? These make you take "miss" damage. You cannot be inflicted with debuffs when taking "miss" damage, because "miss" is clearly different from "0", thanks devs!
    Good catch. That is a mistake in my outline. Only Elemental Resist reduces debuff chance and those other skills that can (plus debuff resistance skills) cause a miss can make debuffs miss.

    Example of latter, please? I am unaware of any "stacking" frame damage cuts, unless they're very recent into Kamihime or a thing in the future. But since A-frame already stacks, what's the difference anyway...?
    I'm just classifying them similar in nature to how the wiki does. https://kamihime-project.fandom.com/...ties#DMG%20Cut
    I make no comment on whether the wiki is wrong or right, but that it's the base point for people to get their information and I am happy to follow the structure laid down by those who have done more work/groundwork that I'm utilizing.

    And then... your post kinda pewtered off. You posted before you were finished with the post?
    I'm generally not interested in shitposting and dick-waving contests. Please make rationale on-point arguments and not lame-ass counterpoints that don't do anything to move the discussion forward. Also please refrain from shitting on other people's choices for elements. Dark is not a shitty element. It can do fine and has plenty of valuable tools in its skillset. While you might not like the fact that they have trouble getting exceed, that is not a reason to say they are fucked. They have a Labyrinth Hammer coming later this year and you can always MTix Berith multiple times for her and gun. People who have spent to roll an Anubis will not have issues finding an extra $100 for two Berith Guns. Especially with the fact that Berith is a top Hime for Dark. If you can agree to do that, I can agree to keep posting. Please stop badmouthing skills you don't want to like. I don't care that you don't like vigor and ascension, but I do not need you posting about how they suck and people who use it are playing the game wrong. They are not; I've seen enough builds that are top tier that use vigor and ascension well that your statements on them are wrong. You're allowed to dislike them, but you're not allowed to say that they're crap.

    Well, regardless, can you answer some basic questions, please? Since without the same premise, there cannot be an argument.
    1. What defines what is and what is not a "damage cut team"?
    2. Do you AAB with a "damage cut team"?
    3. How does one build for a "damage cut team" Grid which - I assume since your post is unfinished - strongly relies upon Vigor and Ascension, two largely unavailable weapon skills?
    Yes. I'd be happy to civilly answer a couple of follow-on questions.
    1) Most people define a damage cut team as a team that can reliably achieve 70-80+% damage cut constantly. I believe that the amount of assault and element attack you give up to do this makes those types of teams useless for most normal play. I don't really build teams like that as they're only truly needed in forced solo content (i.e. tower and that's it). I tend to favor strong utilization of damage cut in teams that, while they could solo content, are actually built to have fun and play in a raid. This will lead to having much lower levels of damage cut (typically 20-40% constant damage cut). Most players can do this and not sacrifice any combat ability (other than having a Hime which might not have strong offensive abilities). I am a strong proponent of Dark players to utilize damage cut builds in their teams. They are one of the few elements that have too many sources of damage cut (Nefertem, Pluto, Cernunnos) and their teams can be some of the most durable teams hands down. Having a top tier SR damage cut Hime (Cernunnos) means that every Dark team can be a damage cut team without spending large amounts of money. If you happen to get Pluto or Nefertem, then you're typically golden and your dark teams durability shoots up dramatically. With utilizing Idun (free Hime also), there is nothing stopping a Dark player from making a viable team that can clear all content (might need help, but won't be completely useless). The only other thing that you need to add is one or two On-Element Resist Eidolons (Kaiser preferred, Dragoon if nothing else) into your 5 sub slots to give an additional source of damage cut for those incredibly dangerous ODs or to give a staggering level of resistance. You might lose up to 1000 attack and like 8% element attack, but that is really very little for the added protection of getting 20% to 30% for 3 or 2 rounds to help reduce an overdrive. This is a viable source that is free for all players (Dragoons come through gacha and everyone can buy a Kaiser for 10k Eido Orbs per element that is needed) in the store. Once you're stronger you can drop this as needed from your builds if you find you don't need it. As an example: I had six thunder teams with Raiko, 1 On Element Kaiser, and Andromeda to fight each Guardian. That was enough damage cut to safely make it through most guardian raids solo or near solo. I have since dropped all of those teams except the Thunder team for Phul (which is now Raiko, Wind Kaiser, Joan with a random spear/Shingen spear, and Dian) as that one is a guardian I try and run daily (and it's usually hard to find tons of players that want to run it).

    2. I do not initially AAB with a damage cut team as none of my teams are constant damage cut teams. You will have to manual a damage cut team in a raid if participation stays low. If players pop in (and some other Andros), you can usually then defer to AABing. Low level of participation forces the AABing. With Trags, I usually have to manual, but once the raid hits 10 or more players, it's safe to move to AABing and you can watch the raid proceed. The point of utilizing a damage cut team in raid content is to enable survivability until you reach critical mass for the raid. While this seems more effort, the added advantage is that your teams are usually very close to your raiding team. As an example: I don't change my grid for my racing team, I usually drop the On Element Kaiser, switch out Dian for Samael, and I switch my soul to Shingen. That's usually it.

    3. I build it like everyone else, with what I've got. You need three Exceed sources, potentially up to 100% ascension and as much vigor as possible. If this is theoretical, then
    a) 3 Sources of Assault/Exceed
    b) 3 or 4 Sources of Assault/Vigor/Ascension (to 100% ascension)
    c) 2 Sources of Assault/Vigor (M or L)
    My current grid is nowhere near this though.


    Dejnov.


    P.S. On second thought, I will post an appended brief of my thoughts to your guide. Thank you for offering that option. I appreciate it.
    Last edited by Dejnov; 05-13-2020 at 08:44 PM.

  7. #11417

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    I'm just classifying them similar in nature to how the wiki does. https://kamihime-project.fandom.com/...ties#DMG%20Cut
    I make no comment on whether the wiki is wrong or right, but that it's the base point for people to get their information and I am happy to follow the structure laid down by those who have done more work/groundwork that I'm utilizing.
    Humm, curious. Most of "A" frame damage cuts are 100% and stuff that I believed to be "immune" buffs... I will need to test and fix quite a lot of these in the Encyclopedia. Because there is a big difference between "immune" and "100% damage cut."
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    -- Dark is not a shitty element. It can do fine and has plenty of valuable tools in its skillset. While you might not like the fact that they have trouble getting exceed, that is not a reason to say they are fucked. They have a Labyrinth Hammer coming later this year and you can always MTix Berith multiple times for her and gun. People who have spent to roll an Anubis will not have issues finding an extra $100 for two Berith Guns. Especially with the fact that Berith is a top Hime for Dark. If you can agree to do that, I can agree to keep posting. --
    I... don't understand one bit where this came from? If you've been holding beef with me from some past post, you probably should've brought it up back then?

    Now then... "Dark is not a shitty element. It can do fine and has plenty of valuable tools in its skillset" objectively speaking... Dark is shitty. Dark really, really suffers in Hime quality overall. Most elements have some true heroes among them, such that you can just MT and you're instantly fine. For Dark... ... there... really isn't any. They have lots of strong individual Hime (with +150% Assault being a recurring theme), but all of them kind of just... do their own thing. Which is not ideal. But hey, it works. If Dark existed in a bubble, it would be perfectly fine, but when you compare Dark to other elements, you go "... well, I guess it doesn't work well enough."

    As for skillset, uh, outside of the brand spanking new Nefertem, uh, not really no? I mean, she is literally Dark's only Hime that doesn't go "hey, I will do my thing and you guys can do your thing." Two others come close. Like Pluto, who is awful by today's standards and badly needs an Awakening to drop her lego cooldown from 3-per-6t to 2-per-2t. And Osiris, who speeds up your team but is rather... unimpressive otherwise. I suppose if you also start bringing up SRs the list becomes longer, but I doubt that many elements would lose in that regard either.
    Except Wind, since my god Wind SRs are fucking awful.

    "While you might not like the fact that they have trouble getting exceed, that is not a reason to say they are fucked" now that Demon Union Events are gone (for a long time), this is literally true for every single element, not just Dark, man. And on a side note, I'm not even a fan of Exceed. Since I only AAB, you really only need 1 Exceed weapon in your entire Grid. It is a painfully limiting factor for stuff like Skill Checker-kun events though, as running manual with Shingen you often run into the problem of "I'd do just fine if I could just squeeze one more Exceed somehow... but that is just not possible."

    "-- and you can always MTix Berith multiple times for her and gun. People who have spent to roll an Anubis will not have issues finding an extra $100 for two Berith Guns." No, no, no and absolutely no. No no no no no. Don't ever even consider this. MTing Hime for a weapon is a horrible horrible idea and you should never do it. Come on man, seriously. You're always missing one true hero of some element, and getting stronger overall is a way better idea than a slight improvement in one Grid. Even more so now that you can buy Limited Hime, so you should always get something which you can NEVER get from gacha.
    Gacha please give me a second Marduk Hammer so that I can brick that and won't need to save them for Dark Labyrinth Hammers.

    "Especially with the fact that Berith is a top Hime for Dark. If you can agree to do that, I can agree to keep posting" if "that" refers to all of the above, then dude, I'm not in the business of bending the truth to make somebody do something. If you want to keep posting, please do. I have always believed that arguments will improve everyone involved for the better unless it is a person incapable of learning and would thus be welcome from my end at least. But if by "that" you mean Berith, yes? I mean, she is one of the +150% Assault individually strong Hime in Dark, along with Susanoo and Chernobog. I mean she is nowhere near true beasts like Thunder Aphro or Michael Awakened, but as good as it gets in Dark.


    Now then, with all of Dark downplaying said, you do know that Dark is my second-strongest element, right? I may have 160% Leviathan, but it simply doesn't do everything by itself since Water F2P Grid is merely okay quality. I mean, if you look at my Tower plans, Dark is always there for off-element clears. The Hime quality might not be great, but since I don't have a Light team (again, in KH, you use what you have!) there isn't much choice. I'd like to think that the devs specifically intended to give a fantastic F2P Grid for Dark with intentionally poor Hime quality. Jesus christ, we have so fucking many Envy Axes (15% Assault, L Pride bonus from losing HP, 18% HP each) that that shit is no joke. Too bad that new players can't just run a Hercules with a Phantom Envy Axe Grid, since that shit can clear pretty much any content just by hitting AAB. So new players have missed out on this amazing free Grid, but the low Hime quality in Dark is there forever. THANKS DEVS!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    Please stop badmouthing skills you don't want to like. I don't care that you don't like vigor and ascension, but I do not need you posting about how they suck and people who use it are playing the game wrong. They are not; I've seen enough builds that are top tier that use vigor and ascension well that your statements on them are wrong. You're allowed to dislike them, but you're not allowed to say that they're crap.
    Have I said that they're crap? I don't think that I've said that they're crap. I have said that I don't like them and I'm not a fan of them. I mean, just look at this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Slashley View Post
    I am personally not a big fan of Ascension. The problem is it takes away from useful stats, for minor gains in a stat that will only be used by 1-2 characters in your party. Not great. CAN it work? Yes, but chances are high that you'll rather want something else if you can make that choice.

    Also not a fan of Vigor, due to just how unreliable it is. Is it an amazing stat at full HP? Yes! Is it a good stat if you have lost ANY HP? Fuck no. So it's a great stat for content that is a joke to you and certain meme content like "how high can I burst during Burst Hour?" but for anything that can hurt you... just stay away.
    The only thing I changed in those quotes is added bolds. Did I say that they're crap? No. I give my reasons as to why I don't find them the best stats ever, and if you disagree with that, you need to give your reason as to why. And on that note, there's my bigger post about weapon skills here. Effectively, the skills that I call shit are Rush, Barrage, Stinger and especially Elaborate. For Ascension I also do say that "isn't so much of a stat that you WANT, it's more of a stat that you NEED and only for SPECIFIC content." In addition, I warn about the risks involved with Vigor.

    The main point is, Assault and Defender will work always and for everything. Vigor and Ascension... do not. Is it possible to make them work? Yes. Should you recommend them to a new player? Absolutely not, let them get their basics straight first. This is further problematic since unlike Assault/Defender which are plentiful, Assault/(Vigor or Ascension) weapons are not. You didn't give me a specific answer to #3 either, just handwaved it away again. How exactly would a new player get their hands on such weapons again?
    (Guardians make it possible for a few elements - specifically Thunder (Gun) and Water (Lance). Dark also has access to Ascension (Arcane), but even you said to go with the Guns, because goddamn the amount of Assault and HP on those Guns is amazing! Personally not getting them though since Envy Axes are about same grade, just far more defensive.)

    And then finally to your answers...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dejnov View Post
    1) Most people define a damage cut team as a team that can reliably achieve 70-80+% damage cut constantly. I believe that the amount of assault and element attack you give up to do this makes those types of teams useless for most normal play. I don't really build teams like that as they're only truly needed in forced solo content (i.e. tower and that's it). I tend to favor strong utilization of damage cut in teams that, while they could solo content, are actually built to have fun and play in a raid. This will lead to having much lower levels of damage cut (typically 20-40% constant damage cut).
    ... wouldn't you call the first one a "turtle" team? Because terms are important. If we say that a "damage cut team is anything between 20%-80%+" then basically everything goes, no? So, I believe we can agree on "typically 20-40% constant damage cut" then?

    Although, even that is pretty confusing to me. I mean, you keep touting Cern and Pluto. Cern has 30% per 5t (20% uptime) and Pluto has 30% per 2/8t (25% uptime). That gets you on average to 13,5% damage cut... and then when we add brand spanking new Nefertem with her 25% 2/5t (40% uptime) we reach 23,5% damage cut on average. Which I guess just barely reaches this 20% treshold. Though, when manualing, you don't exactly need to use these averages as damage cuts can be used only for OD turns. Still, that's not what "constant damage cut" means...

    Another confusing part is, you claim to go to toe to toe with the strongest players with a build that has three units with zero offensive abilities. I mean, don't get me wrong, Nefertem is amazing and deserves her spot in any team that is looking to debuff and/or survive. Pluto can boost your full bursts a fair deal, but that's pretty much it. Cern... ... does absolutely nothing but reduce damage taken. That... still doesn't seem realistic in the slightest.

    But, the real problem is here is that you're absolutely relying on Nefertem. This is a Hime who hasn't even been in a Miracle Ticket yet!! And you're still recommending this build to new players? How exactly are they going to go about it when they don't have the very cornerstone of such a build?!? I mean, I suppose you can kiiiinda make do without Nefertem, but then you need multiple Hime to offset that loss, and then you're damage output is even more in the pits.

    "With utilizing Idun (free Hime also), there is nothing stopping a Dark player from making a viable team that can clear all content (might need help, but won't be completely useless)." I mean... you're not wrong... but... you can also make viable teams for any content without making a turtling/damage cut team? As soon as a player gets their hands on a full slvl20 SR Grid, they should be strong enough to clear almost all GOs (Jack excluded, but oh boy, a Dark turtling/damage cut team isn't going to do anything to her either). So, shouldn't these players rather go for the typical "kill it before it kills you" builds, which are significantly faster? Or do you have an example of a newer player clearing something like AQ7 especially early due to a build like this?


    Thank you for answering #2. I don't fully agree with your idea on how to solo Disaster Rags/Guardians (until critical mass) since I think you can just put heals + HP buffer to begin with and AAB reliably from start to finish, but fair enough.

    And I already mentioned what I thought about #3 answer...

    PS. I'm not going to reply to you on guide side, mostly because that's slightly adjusted copypaste from this side. If you are going to reply though, feel free to do it on either side.

  8. #11418
    If I nave an advent's mats' leftovers, will I be able to use them when (if) the advent gets reprinted?

  9. #11419
    Quote Originally Posted by Slashley View Post
    Now then... "Dark is not a shitty element. It can do fine and has plenty of valuable tools in its skillset" objectively speaking... Dark is shitty. Dark really, really suffers in Hime quality overall. Most elements have some true heroes among them, such that you can just MT and you're instantly fine. For Dark... ... there... really isn't any. They have lots of strong individual Hime (with +150% Assault being a recurring theme), but all of them kind of just... do their own thing. Which is not ideal. But hey, it works. If Dark existed in a bubble, it would be perfectly fine, but when you compare Dark to other elements, you go "... well, I guess it doesn't work well enough."
    Dammit. This statement is something I still totally disagree with... Dark does not suck. You do have to play it differently though. And Dark is getting great Himes this year also... Nefertem, DTake, DSvarog... I think you're totally wrong on the ability for dark to be able to be a strong viable team.

    The main point is, Assault and Defender will work always and for everything. Vigor and Ascension... do not. Is it possible to make them work? Yes. Should you recommend them to a new player? Absolutely not, let them get their basics straight first. This is further problematic since unlike Assault/Defender which are plentiful, Assault/(Vigor or Ascension) weapons are not. You didn't give me a specific answer to #3 either, just handwaved it away again. How exactly would a new player get their hands on such weapons again?
    (Guardians make it possible for a few elements - specifically Thunder (Gun) and Water (Lance). Dark also has access to Ascension (Arcane), but even you said to go with the Guns, because goddamn the amount of Assault and HP on those Guns is amazing! Personally not getting them though since Envy Axes are about same grade, just far more defensive.)
    I disagree with defender being needed in a grid anymore. You're better off getting Vigor and/or Ascension (especially Ascension). Your bang for buck is just better with Ascension than Defender.

    Although, even that is pretty confusing to me. I mean, you keep touting Cern and Pluto. Cern has 30% per 5t (20% uptime) and Pluto has 30% per 2/8t (25% uptime). That gets you on average to 13,5% damage cut... and then when we add brand spanking new Nefertem with her 25% 2/5t (40% uptime) we reach 23,5% damage cut on average. Which I guess just barely reaches this 20% treshold. Though, when manualing, you don't exactly need to use these averages as damage cuts can be used only for OD turns. Still, that's not what "constant damage cut" means...
    I agree that I'm not a fan of turtling (i.e. damage cut teams of 70-80%) and instead focus on just teams with overall damage cut of 20-40%.
    You're not paying attention to the whole ensemble. You keep only focusing on the portions you like as opposed to the tools you can utilize. Let's just use Cernunnos, Andro on the team, and One On-Element 0LB Kaiser. Andro's Cursed Canting Chains gives 20% Defense 3/6T and Cerunnos can build to 40% Defense constant. that is 60%/40% 3/6T. This works out to damage cuts of 37.5%/28.5% constant damage cut for this team or 33% avg. damage cut. Cernunnos then gives 30% 1/5T or 6% average damage cut. An On Element Kaiser gives 20% 2/8T or 5% damage cut. Right now with all tools you have you're sporting 44% average damage cut. You now need to estimate the amount of damage cut that is coming from Andro's Heal. I like to assume 4k damage per round per Hime (fair and reasonable approximation for near endgame content) which means that you're taking 2.24k per round. Andro can heal 1.6k/5T or 320HP per round. That is base 8% damage cut or (after other sources of damage cut) equivalent to an additional 14.3% damage cut. This team currently runs 58.7% damage cut. You still have 3 Hime slots open. Now there are a ton of ifs and assumptions here. You might not like the 4k per round per hime approximation, if it's higher you do get less damage cut from Andro, but I don't think content goes much higher. If you get Nefertem, you can drop Andro and run Shingen. Joan and Andro are just there to fill slots for Himes you don't have. You could also run more Kaisers (5% avg.) and/or Dragoons (7.5% avg. MLB) as needed to up your defenses.

    Another confusing part is, you claim to go to toe to toe with the strongest players with a build that has three units with zero offensive abilities. I mean, don't get me wrong, Nefertem is amazing and deserves her spot in any team that is looking to debuff and/or survive. Pluto can boost your full bursts a fair deal, but that's pretty much it. Cern... ... does absolutely nothing but reduce damage taken. That... still doesn't seem realistic in the slightest.

    But, the real problem is here is that you're absolutely relying on Nefertem. This is a Hime who hasn't even been in a Miracle Ticket yet!! And you're still recommending this build to new players? How exactly are they going to go about it when they don't have the very cornerstone of such a build?!? I mean, I suppose you can kiiiinda make do without Nefertem, but then you need multiple Hime to offset that loss, and then you're damage output is even more in the pits.
    Relying on Nefertem as a core meta Hime is something ALL elements do once you're aiming for META. This is not a counterpoint against utilizing an effective damage cut team as your core build. All of the other choices required - Andro, Joan, Idun and Cernunnos are available and/or SRs. They are all available to new Dark players fairly easily. Once you have the ability to get better choices, upgrade as needed.

    And your claim that damage reduction doesn't add offense is invalidated by Vigor. Teams with 50+% damage cut can keep Vigor up for a really long time (usually the full battle). That's additional assault/damage that non-damage cuts can't do. Having Cernunnos means she doesn't do as much damage as an SSR, but she does allow all other SSRs in your team to utilize Vigor for far longer than without.

    I'm not a Dark player anymore. I never got Anubis (instead got Nidhoggr) and now run Thunder. In Thunder I still run a strong damage cut Hime (Raiko) and as much Vigor/Ascension as I can. I don't pay attention to defender at all. In the above example, without any defender in the grid, we've got 50+% damage cut which is equivalent to 100% defender. Why bother with defender at all at that point. I mean you'll have to have some from sub-par weapons, but I'd gladly trade that in for Vigor/Ascension and the minimum needed Exceed.

    "With utilizing Idun (free Hime also), there is nothing stopping a Dark player from making a viable team that can clear all content (might need help, but won't be completely useless)." I mean... you're not wrong... but... you can also make viable teams for any content without making a turtling/damage cut team? As soon as a player gets their hands on a full slvl20 SR Grid, they should be strong enough to clear almost all GOs (Jack excluded, but oh boy, a Dark turtling/damage cut team isn't going to do anything to her either). So, shouldn't these players rather go for the typical "kill it before it kills you" builds, which are significantly faster? Or do you have an example of a newer player clearing something like AQ7 especially early due to a build like this?
    Being able to clear difficult content is an important aspect of Kamihime. Utilizing a damage cut team allows you to do that with sub-par grids and eidolons. Once you're able to clear higher content I don't think you actually have to switch the gameplay format to only assault/defense. Adding additional Ascension and Vigor helps that team clear faster. You can technically (with enough Ascension) turn the team into an AAB team. And with Vigor you can turn the team into a faster team. But I don't see any reason to trade Ascension or Vigor for Defense. That doesn't help you 'kill it before it kills you' either. The loss for a decent damage cut team you keep pointing out is at most a Hime and/or Soul choice and 1 maybe 2 Eidolons slots. The durability you gain and the ability to clear very high content at an early stage in a player's career is very valuable. The ability to grow this team past an assault/defender grid based team is also available.

    There is a reason that ascension/vigor is harder to get than defender; they are better weapon grid skills. You do need to create a team to utilize it and so they take more effort and work, but there is a strong payoff from that also. The reason I think most Dark players should run a damage cut team is that it's so readily available to them. They have the easiest chance to get a damage cut team working. You can make that team with two SRs (Idun and Cernunnos) and either Andro or Joan. That is much easier than trying to get a specific SSR, but once you get them you can definitely transition to the better SSRs. Also, I don't believe they are hard/impossible to create for most elements. You do have to run Andro/Joan (and the Kaisers/Dragoons) until you get a damage cut SSR/SR, but that is not unrealistic. They are SR Himes in all elements that start the team. Cernunnos is a different beast in that her skillset is something you'd expect on an SSR.


    Dejnov.


    Edit: I would trade higher levels of damage cut for faster burst speed, but I would never trade Vigor/Ascension weapons for Defender weapons. As you get better Eidolons and Weapons, it is natural to see if you can move from Andro/Joan to Shingen/Yori. That team isn't an AAB team anymore, but if you needed an AAB team you wouldn't switch from Andro in the first place.
    Last edited by Dejnov; 05-14-2020 at 03:50 PM.

  10. #11420
    Quote Originally Posted by Slashley View Post
    3. How does one build for a "damage cut team" Grid which - I assume since your post is unfinished - strongly relies upon Vigor and Ascension, two largely unavailable weapon skills?
    I can give you my current grid for Thunder:

    4 Guardian Guns (Assault/Vigor/Ascension)
    1 Mammon Gun (Assualt/Vigor/Defender)
    Phantom Gun
    2 Marduk Hammers (Assault/Defender/Exceed)
    1 Union Lance (Assault/Exceed)

    I can give you the expected grid for Dark:

    3 Berith Guns (Assault/Defender/Exceed) or 2 Berith Guns and Labyrinth Axe (Assault/Exceed)
    2 Guardian Guns (Pride/Defender/Assault)
    Phantom Gun
    3 DSvarog Axes (Assault/Defender/Vigor)

    But honestly, it's just the two Berith guns that would be the critical weapons for a Dark Grid for a new player. You might be able to get by without them till next year when they run the Demons again... If you get lucky with a Samael Hammer you could use that also, but I wouldn't brick it. I'd brick the Berith Gun.

    But here's the other thing about the grid in a damage cut team... it's not a huge contributing factor until you hit META. At that point, you only want/need the best and you'd only be bricking/getting weapons with Vigor or Vigor/Ascension on them.


    Dejnov.
    Last edited by Dejnov; 05-14-2020 at 03:53 PM.

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