Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Noted... It's probably my instinctual reliance on Sol that's hurting my gameplay at this point isn't it?

It's not necessarily wrong. It's slower, but it is safer, that's for sure.

Note that as you are weak, a powerful healer like Sol will entirely change your runs. It is very easy to get used to this as a norm. As you grow stronger and stronger, you will probably not even notice that you don't need Sols in your teams anymore. At which point of this you are at? I don't know. The only way for you to know is to experiment.

Even if you're past the point where Sol is no longer REQUIRED for you to clear content but you ENJOY it - then go ahead. Except in content where time-limits are a thing (which we don't have yet) there is no game mechanic that punishes you for playing in that way. In the end, Kamihime is a game. Your enjoyment is the primary thing here.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

The first case is Zephyrus over Sol. Heal-wise, err... yes I probably don't need the ridiculous heal power Sol has, plus Ithaqhua is already there. You might have seen this question before, but how much damage tradeoff would I be doing with a simple switch to an R same element hime?

While the exact answer will depend on your exact damage output (which I don't have acess to), let's consider a few possibilities:
Off-element Sol does 0 damage, everyone on-element does 1 damage. Bringing 5 damage over 4 damage is a 20% increase. For the record, Vine taking Def Down from 40% to 50% is a 16% damage increase, so 20% is a LOT.

But, realistically, Sol isn't going to do 0 damage. So let's look at the two extremes, somewhat realistic:
For my Water team that runs Sunday AQ4 with Sol (fuck Thunder waves! ;_; ), at -50% Def, I punch Fire stuff for 50k, and I think Sol punches for 10k-ish? This should be about the highest you can get without whaling in Nutaku. So, Sol does 0.2 damage, so 5 vs. 4.2 = 16% increase.
Meanwhile, a team with absolutely no Grid but elemental advantage and Eidolons, Sol will be doing at best half damage compared to on-element guys (100% Assault for both Sol and on-element Himes, but 235% Element modifier for on-element Himes is over double damage). So 5 vs. 4.5 = 10% increase.

tl;dr; With lazy math, taking a on-element R Hime over off-element is a 10-16% damage increase, depending on where your grid is at. Are R Hime good damage dealers? No, no they're not. But there's very few exceptions to off-element Hime who can compare to on-element Hime (such as SR Beelz!).

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

-- I ask this mainly because I still see Zephy as replaceable by Sol, especially in a situation where I do want to have that stupid strong heal buff. -- Next question regards... lack of wind Orpheus. I find this a tad bit confusing since I believe you have expressed your love for zeal quite a few times (with Raiko and fire Beelz anyway). Any reason why she wouldn't fit in the team?

I put these together since the answer is related.

First off, Zeal. Is it good? Yes it is. But let's have a look at duration:
Wind Ramiel/Wind Orpheus: 2 turns
Raiko: 3 turns
SSR Beelz: 5 turns
This... is what makes me a bit skeptical about Wind Zeal users. Is +20 team-wide burst good? Again, yes, yes it is. But there's another problem:

Party slots.

Now, for you, Zephyrus is probably the stronger healer than than Ithaqua. I haven't done the actual maths, but because preventing damage is basically a heal, Zephyrus should be able to keep you healthier than Ithaqua alone. Add in Ithaqua's heals, and Zephyrus-Ithaqua combo is basically a two-slot pre-Awakening Sol, so should keep you safe. So, can you afford to run Zephyrus-Wind Orpheus? That's up for you to find out.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Last question has to do with Cybele. If I replace Ithaqua with Cybele to free up my EX slot from the B frame debuffs:
A. How viable/ dumb is that option?
B. If A is viable, what would you slot in as the EX?

It is something to keep in mind. That is something that'll benefit you if you need to use that EX slot for Cleanse, Dispel or something else like Provisional Forest.

On a side note that came to mind from this, Joan(BP)-Gaia-Hastur-Zeph-Cybele would probably do well. You'd trade a small loss in damage output for damage reduction, and with Joan-Gaia you'd already have an incredible amount of anti-Overdrive capability.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

My sides.

What!

It's true, Awakened Gaia under Guard-Intercept-Berserk will hit like a truck berserker! Bonus points for content which often does triple attacks, like Phoenix or Ult Wind.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Noted... It's probably my instinctual reliance on Sol that's hurting my gameplay at this point isn't it?



I would run Mordred with SS... Except I literally don't have a wind sword or glaive. That should change next event however.



I... am confused over a couple of things here. Not the Vine point, I understand that one just fine.

The first case is Zephyrus over Sol. Heal-wise, err... yes I probably don't need the ridiculous heal power Sol has, plus Ithaqhua is already there. You might have seen this question before, but how much damage tradeoff would I be doing with a simple switch to an R same element hime? I ask this mainly because I still see Zephy as replaceable by Sol, especially in a situation where I do want to have that stupid strong heal buff.

Next question regards... lack of wind Orpheus. I find this a tad bit confusing since I believe you have expressed your love for zeal quite a few times (with Raiko and fire Beelz anyway). Any reason why she wouldn't fit in the team?

Last question has to do with Cybele. If I replace Ithaqua with Cybele to free up my EX slot from the B frame debuffs:
A. How viable/ dumb is that option?
B. If A is viable, what would you slot in as the EX?

And as a footnote...



My sides.

As i have the same wind himes as you (except Gaya), i can tell what i was thinking about it. If we will replace Zephyrus with Sol, team will lose about 15% total non-skilll damage if we count Sol's damage as 0. But a)Sol's damage is not 0 b) Sol has damaging skill (weak as off-element, but it's still a damage) c) other himes (like Hastur and Gaya) have their own strong damaging so even with 160% assault and 200% eydo total damage loss will not be greater then 10%. Instead we gain supermegahyper heal, stronger attack debuff, cleance, dark resist buff on burst (not working on nutaku as i know) etc. But Itaqua will not be needed if you will use Sol so you can replace her with someone more usefull (her nuke is so-so, poison is garbage and intercept on healer... too situational), so we will trade 2 not very high damaging hime for 1 even less damaging but more supporting one and 1 free slot. Released hime slot can be filled with someone more damaging or providing more buffs/debuffs to compensate damage loss from Sol. So i can't see anything bad in using Sol in this situation if you don't have Seth. Cybele is a good option for replacement because she releases ex slot, i'm using her because i don't have Gaya or other wind SSR, but i like Iblis more for b-frame debuff if you have her.

What ex should you use with Cybele? If soul is not Mordred - BP, if Mordred - provisional forest/Joan's attack debuff, maybe something else.

Originally Posted by Slashley

insert

Points taken, and many thanks!

As far as I know... as the updates roll in we're gonna see more raid bosses that are unforgiving to stalling teams... right? There was also guild orders (or was it tower?) that require you to clear certain quests in a number of turns...

Definitely a fan of the stalling playstyle, but eh, I might as well change things up a bit.

Also, "my sides", because I was laughing a bit hard thinking about the damage it could do. As well as at myself for taking a minute to figure out why it's such a silly combo

Originally Posted by Mraktar

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Ah, that sounds pretty much along the initial lines of reasoning I had with regards to why I questioned Slashley's recommended team, which coincidentally was how I came up with slotting in Orpheus and Sol as the last 2 himes.

That said, I think it's time to actually put both teams into testing, considering I can't really decide for myself if I continue to theorycraft. Also because I don't really have the time to think about it

Anyways, thanks to both of you dudes. Cheers!

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

As far as I know... as the updates roll in we're gonna see more raid bosses that are unforgiving to stalling teams... right? There was also guild orders (or was it tower?) that require you to clear certain quests in a number of turns...

Not 100% 'unforgiving' .... just difficult. To the point where sometimes going full offense is much easier than trying to stall.

i.e.

- DUL spams dispel + DoT, which renders all types of long term regen and buff fairly useless. The only way to play long game with her is to multiple healers with cleanse. Not impossible, I've done it, but a huge pain in the ars for sure.

- GO Yggdrasil's rage burst is a AoE 70% HP cut + Posion + Decay, which completely ignores dmg cut and can kill you immediately if your remaining HP is too low to survive the DoT (And more than likely, you will be hitting her 30% hp mark around then and trigger her 20k dmg satellite beam. I hope you have Gaia/Athena.)

- There are mobs in tower that can put a permanently stackable + uncleansable def down debuff on your team.

- Dysnomia

- TRag

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Points taken, and many thanks!

Ah, that sounds pretty much along the initial lines of reasoning I had with regards to why I questioned Slashley's recommended team, which coincidentally was how I came up with slotting in Orpheus and Sol as the last 2 himes.

That said, I think it's time to actually put both teams into testing, considering I can't really decide for myself if I continue to theorycraft. Also because I don't really have the time to think about it

Anyways, thanks to both of you dudes. Cheers!

I not only theorycrafted, but playtested team with Osiris instead of Zephyrus, damage loss is not so big because Zephyrus is r heal type hime with no damaging skill/debuff. Osiris just gives not enough team support to put her as off element hime, but Sol is fine for me even with Hrae, so if you don't have Hrae, you will lose much less then me. I already told my opinion, reinforced by testing, but it's only you who can make ultimate desition.

Aren't future event raids designed to be more anti auto friendly, not so much anti stalling? The impression I recall having at reading the examples were that the stuff they did wasn't hard to resolve if you're actively playing, but can be problematic if you turned on auto and walked away.

As far as I know... as the updates roll in we're gonna see more raid bosses that are unforgiving to stalling teams... right? There was also guild orders (or was it tower?) that require you to clear certain quests in a number of turns...
Definitely a fan of the stalling playstyle, but eh, I might as well change things up a bit.

From what i see, most content post Wind Ult raid has rather strict dps check, so yes, stalling in general is unlikely to carry you too far.

Guild order second week has a quest that requires you to clear the last stage in 15 turns.

Most high-tier boss simply has too much damage or some mechanic that can easily overwhelm your stalling: Fire Ult with meteor spam, Light ult with 20k death beam, Water ult with 20k double snake and water res down, Acc 5 with 50k+ aoe by 5th turn.....

Special mention to Guild Order Dullahan, who has a special move instead of normal attack, and that is apply DOOM on 1 Hime (which mean BP actually harm u instead, coz her burst is just aoe dot).

Aren't future event raids designed to be more anti auto friendly, not so much anti stalling? The impression I recall having at reading the examples were that the stuff they did wasn't hard to resolve if you're actively playing, but can be problematic if you turned on auto and walked away.

Not just raid, i find most future content including advent to be auto unfriendly. IIRC the next event u will get would be Illuyanka advent, and she is extremely auto unfriendly (which is coz her event have a really good weapon).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Aren't future event raids designed to be more anti auto friendly, not so much anti stalling? The impression I recall having at reading the examples were that the stuff they did wasn't hard to resolve if you're actively playing, but can be problematic if you turned on auto and walked away.

This is rather a question of flexibility, if you ask me. There are going to be cases where a player just simply can't go offensive, because he doesn't have the units available, but can clear it with the good ol' turtle method coz that setup is foolproof. There are recommended methods, you can obviously get around them with other means, but they are recommended for a reason.
Another thing to note is that the general approach is to go offensive where you can. Why would you take more time clearing something with the foolproof method if you don't even need to? That, and it's better to know all your setups you got on hand & what they're capable of for tower purposes, if nothing else.

Originally Posted by Mirage

IIRC the next event u will get would be Illuyanka advent, and she is extremely auto unfriendly (which is coz her event have a really good weapon).

Uhhh... Illuyanka is actually very aab friendly if you just flick it on starting with T1...

Originally Posted by Mirage

Most high-tier boss simply has too much damage or some mechanic that can easily overwhelm your stalling: Fire Ult with meteor spam, Light ult with 20k death beam, Water ult with 20k double snake and water res down, Acc 5 with 50k+ aoe by 5th turn.....

Special mention to Guild Order Dullahan, who has a special move instead of normal attack, and that is apply DOOM on 1 Hime (which mean BP actually harm u instead, coz her burst is just aoe dot).

I didn't mention those as those are actually pretty easy to stall. FUL's nuke tickles with a water stall team as long as you dispel the boss's buff. LUL can be cheesed by waiting out the buffs. WaUL on the other hand... you just need specific set up that includes cover + dispel + cleanse provided that you have enough dps to get through rage gauge quickly. AQ5 you only need to bring 90~100% worth of dmg cut and you can easily stall through it due to boss's long charge time. Dullahan... her doom doesn't proc until after 3 turns. You got plenty of time to prepare.