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  1. #6481
    Unregistered Guest
    'Endgame' effectively assumes both 100%+ eidolon and a selection of SSRs at the same time. So effectively, your starting roll will not set you up for eternity. That said, I think that for those rerolling, a 100%+ eidolon is strongly preferred over at least two good SSRs of the same element. I'll explain my reasoning for this position (which may or may not necessarily match others' logic). This won't directly answer your questions, but I hope that seeing the reasoning would let you infer what my answers would've been anyway. Except for that last question. My answer to that is, 100% eidolon + a highly desired SSR or two would be ideal, but that comes with quite a bit more expected rerolling time compared to shooting for just a 100% eidolon. I don't know how much tolerance you expect to have for rerolling :/

    Short version: Power gap, probability, and power creep.

    Longer version:
    1. Power gap - the difference in impact between a 100%+ eidolon and event eidolons is both more straightforward and larger than the difference in impact between a typical* SSR and a good SR. Also, possession of a 100%+ eidolon makes it a lot easier to add friends with 100%+ eidolons of their own. That is, if you don't have a 100% eidolon, you don't expect someone with a 100% to accept your request. So you're effectively dependent on random non-friends showing up as well as people already on your friends list suddenly rolling a 100% eidolon and staying friends with you. So part of the time, the gap further becomes the difference between double 100%+ eidolons and 1xEvent/1x100% or 2xEvent.
    *of course, not all SSR are created equal. Some can be rather batshit broken good.

    2. Probability - it's hard to roll a 100%+ eidolon. If you happen to roll an SSR, and that SSR ends up being an eidolon, odds are that it'll be something that sucks until a few limit breaks later. On the other hand, if that SSR ends up being a kamihime, it'll usually be some sort of upgrade to varying degree over to an SR of that element. That is, it's easier to eventually roll some random collection of SSR kamihime than it is to roll a 100%+ eidolon.

    3. Power creep - the only things that will beat a 100%+ eidolon are next year's 100%+ eidolons. That is, the current set we see now are 100% at 0* and go up by 5% with each limit break (with Managarmr and Anubis being dependent on the number of sub eidolons matching their element). Next year, we'll start seeing the release of similar for the other 4 elements. Hanuman (wind)/Nidhoggr (thunder)/Leviathan (water)/Cerberus (fire) also start at +100% element at 0*, but they go up to 120% based on your sub eidolons. Each limit break raises the floor and ceiling by 5% (correct me if I'm wrong here). So if none of your sub eidolons match element, then they ought to provide the same bonus as the old set of 100%+ eidolons with the same number of limit breaks. But they become better the more you match (4% per matching sub eidolon).
    So there is power creep on the horizon even for eidolons. That said, the old set of 100% eidolons will still be plenty strong, especially if you don't like having your selection of sub eidolons restricted to a particular element.
    For kamihime on the other hand? Power creep is real and constant, as expected from these sort of games. Got to get people to constantly spend, right? And the consistent side of power creep is expressed through kamihime design. What's core now may not necessarily remain core later.


  2. #6482
    Hime obsolation and power creep is an interesting point that i didnt consider. Will that happen? I didnt check jp wiki and its hard to imagine himes like Amaterasu/Sol/Ryu-oh/Cthulhu get replaced. They got their place in core hime by bringing immense amount of utility. To replace them they would need to release even stronger himes like with 30-40% debuff or himes with 4 active ability, otherwise new himes doesnt replace them, just give an equal substitute.
    As for dmg himes, yeah its pretty realistic new dmg himes get even more dmg and new interesting mechanic, but i'm more interested in utility when i build teams (in all games). I will opt for versatile or endurance build if its possible, and only go burst only if the game force me to do.

    In conclusion: 100% eido isn't a free pass to endgame content, but gonna make your progress smoother. Multiple core himes of the same element is also a nice way to start out, but that's probably even less likely than a 100% eido of RNG's choice & yet, those himes will fall out of meta sooner or later.
    You missed my main concern. Im not concerned about easy or hard way to endgame. Im concerned about bottleneck when i reach endgame in the far future. I understand 100% eidolon is indispensable, coz its the only reliable way to boost elemental dmg. Does SSR hime also indispensable for a good team, which force me to reroll for both, coz otherwise there's no garantee i get SSR hime for endgame?
    As for the definition of "good team", im obviously not planning to compete for top ranks as free player. I would consider a team good at endgame if it can comfortably earn all individual (not competitive) rewards for event, and clear all solo content.
    I guess either way i'll reroll 200 more just to reach nice number (currently at 800). Thanks for reply.

  3. #6483

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    Yesterday I was talking with some DMM veterans who were saying that himes like Sol (clear example) are being replaced because of this fast meta. Every element can burst in turn 2 or 3, also saying that Light can burst in turn 1.

    I don't quite like that "Meta" DMM is enforcing, but eh... that's how it is.
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  4. #6484
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelerion View Post
    As for the definition of "good team", im obviously not planning to compete for top ranks as free player. I would consider a team good at endgame if it can comfortably earn all individual (not competitive) rewards for event, and clear all solo content.
    I guess either way i'll reroll 200 more just to reach nice number (currently at 800). Thanks for reply.
    You don't need a 100% eido or even SSR teams to clear all content in the game; yes that's including all of the hardest end-game content currently. So if that's your primary concern, just be aware that all solo content in the game can easily be cleared if you work properly on your grids. All the challenges/missions/off-element teams, etc... can be done if you have proper grids for it.

    That being said, if you're just now starting, it will be a long, long while before you build "proper" grids since you missed a majority of the events for them so far. So a 100% helps bridge the powergap between you and those with grids a little bit. In the end, you will still need to grind a lot to ever catch up. As for SSR himes, you're much more likely to get those even as a free player, simply out of jewels eventually. Whereas the chances of a 100% seem to be weighted to be lower in general. To put it in a way to answer your question: if you're farming jewels actively and don't miss any usually, even as a f2p player, you'll eventually be able to snag some core himes to build teams around.
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  5. #6485
    Unregistered Guest
    From what DMM players say, the 'meta' or ideal direction to build toward shifts more into something like 'hit hard and hit fast/burst frequently'. That is, at the top end, you're focusing more towards killing quickly, which lowers the value of skillsets geared more towards survival. I like to think of it as, first you try kill something before it kills you, but if that doesn't work out, then you switch to outliving it.

    For example, for water, I think that Cthulhu loses value once Vohu Manah comes out. Vohu Manah offers a huge chunk of fire atk/water resist debuff (30%) and can build up her own burst gauge faster (her abi1 gives her a 2 turn guaranteed triple atk buff and her abi2 is 'do a normal attack'). Cthulhu's offering less atk reduction, less def reduction, and her abi1 eating an orb every 9 turns is less valued compared to what else Vohu Manah has.

  6. #6486
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I was gonna say pass on defender only trash by default, but since you don't have Kyuuki bow apparenly, you can equip the collab sword if you need the HP. My understanding is that wind won't get any more viable event weapons with defender until Garuda 2nd reprint next July.
    Although, where would you need more HP? My wind team has less base HP than yours and the collab sword won't make a difference for me.
    I don't really understand the stigma against HP. Unless you already have full SSR wpn grids, you shouldn't simply pass up a weapon just because it's a defender.
    I have a full SSR-only wpn grid and already even have a mlb of that sword from the 1st time it ran, but I'll still be getting a 2nd mlb copy of that sword again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Having more SSRs allows you greater choice and flexibility when choosing/adjusting grids for certain content. You won't necessarily be using them as your main grid all the time, but having the choice to adjust as needed is always nice. For example, for wind GO (quetz) my fire team was able to comfortably AAB it after adjusting my grid a bit. If I had used only full assaults and not used any defenders, it would've failed to clear it on AAB.

    Increased HP isn't a bad thing. Sometimes it can help you clear content a bit easier as well like disaster rags that you might be having trouble with; because there might not always be people on to help you in those, especially if you start them in the off-hours or during other raid events, etc... And let's face it, it's a lot less effort/easier to just set things on AAB if you can, and HP can enable you do so for a lot of the content. Of course, if you're only going to 100% manual everything in this game, then sure, go ahead and forgo any HP/defenders and go full out assault so you can pummel everything dead quicker. But it's nice to be able to be lazy and AAB end-game content if you want to, and you won't be able to do that without figuring out the proper mix of both assault + hp. Jus' sayin'... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Last edited by VeryVoodoo; 10-10-2018 at 07:01 PM.
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  7. #6487
    Unregistered Guest
    AAB never factors into my thinking as far as advice/suggestions go. By the time you can AAB through a battle, you're well past the point of 100% win probability. I think that as far as discussion goes, it's only meaningful when it concerns changing that probability between 0 to 100. Once you're past guaranteed success and think about autoing for convenience, that's a luxury that you solve on your own time.

  8. #6488
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Once you're past guaranteed success and think about autoing for convenience, that's a luxury that you solve on your own time.
    Except to get to that point in the first place, you're probably going to need fully developed grids to begin with. So when people are running the majority of their grid as SR disaster wpns, should they really be turning their noses up at a defender SSR as being "trash by default" or being offered that as advice then?

    Leaving aside the AAB'ing of end-game content then, I've personally seen some people unable to clear things like GOs or some of the raid challenges, even with a lot of assault% etc.. because they too have turned their noses up at defender stuff in general and built full assault grids, stacking things like SR disaster assaults instead. But it turns out having that bit of extra hp actually helps them clear what they otherwise kept failing, because hey suddenly the boss OD that was wiping them before now no longer kills them giving them all those extra turns, surprise, surprise!

    I can understand if you've got well developed grids already, and don't plan to min/max stuff for the future, sure you can pass up defenders... but for a guy whose grid seemed to consist mainly of SR disaster assaults, the default advice to him shouldn't be to deem a defender SSR as trash, as it's still actually likely to improve his grid and team in a lot of scenarios.
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  9. #6489
    Unregistered Guest
    If it makes a difference in their particular situation, great. I even did say that if they need the HP, they can equip that weapon. Although when I asked 'where would you need the HP', that wasn't rhetorical. That was a request for more details on the situation; which fights/what kamihime are available/stats/etc. etc. My SSR-less wind team has less base HP, only has +HP through Kyuuki bow, probably has less assault, and probably has higher base atk. I picked up 3 ori from Yggdrasil GO (I didn't do the win in 15 turns or all 7 survive missions).

    Now for the part where I say 'defender only trash'? Ok, that's a habit of mine dating back to launch. I'm fairly sure that I'm literally the only one who uses that exact phrasing on this forum. If you've seen an unregistered say that since launch, that's me.
    Why did I start saying that? There are two halves to it. The first is that obviously I value raising assault more than raising just HP. The other half is thinking about resource allocation. Even back then I already knew that I'd never use a defender only weapon in a serious lategame grid, so it was a question of how much, if any, time/gems/weapons into skill leveling the things. This being before guerilla quests and before my grids hit the point where new SR weapons are superfluous, skill leveling for me was a lot more troublesome. So it was a matter of investing for short term vs long term gains. I concluded that working on defender only trash wasn't worth it for me at all. I also capped leveling my SR's to 12, for that matter.

  10. #6490
    I don't know specific where I need more HP. I just feel like my HP is too low and more HP would be more safe. Maybe the dark rag since It can one hit me with rage burst + dot, but either way I can't solo it so it doesn't really matter.
    I got 5 ori from Yggdrasil but Wind is my only team that can do GO so I need to do off element and I can only do it with Andromeda now. I wonder if I can do Joan mission with more HP, stat and a little Ascension (for Ithaqua).
    I have save enough fod to max sl all 3 wind SSR from this 2 advent right away but I also have many other element SSR weapon unskilled.

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