Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by AutoCrimson

buffing every "normal" hime of same element, then moving to other? that's quite... "interesting" logic.

I don't know about "logic", but that's LITERALLY what they are doing with light (some more than others, obviously). Putting aside the really new ones and the already op ones, the only one that they haven't touched so far is light Satan, and that probably won't happen until she comes back next Christmas.

Originally Posted by Slashley

While two good SSR Hime of a single element is an acceptable-ish start, notice that Thunder relies on some extremely specific SSR Hime which means that without Miracle Tickets, you're unlikely to make it work. In addition, having a 100% Eidolon is a free ticket towards useful useful Friends on your Friends List.

As such, I'd rather recommend to keep rerolling for a 100%.

Well, I have already rolled dark and wind 100% for myself but since I have a lot of free time wanted 3 accounts for myself (dark, wind and light or thunder). I probably won't bother with it and work on my 100% accs.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

the only one that they haven't touched so far is light Satan

Errr... They've already buffed her since a loooooong time ago.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Errr... They've already buffed her since a loooooong time ago.

Oh right... in the first buff cycle. For some reason it completely slipped my mind, I guess that's how bad it is that she still feels pretty lack luster after it.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Oh right... in the first buff cycle. For some reason it completely slipped my mind, I guess that's how bad it is that she still feels pretty lack luster after it.

Well, lackluster in comparison to the rest of the light pool is a given, but that's kinda an unfair comparison considering that rest of the light pool is unbelievably borken...

... in comparison to elements like dark which get utterly shafted in so many aspects. Seriously. Can Pluto not be the only one to be a team player in a dark setup, and can dark get something to buff their BG cycle as a whole?

Edit:
LSatan's buffs: GDA becomes GDATA, nuke comes down to 5t cd, skill 2 becomes 6t cd and gains additional crit buff. Burst effect: additional pursuit dmg on normal atks for 3t.

... which isn't phenomenal to say, but at least it isn't utter garbage.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

--
... in comparison to elements like dark which get utterly shafted in so many aspects. Seriously. Can Pluto not be the only one to be a team player in a dark setup, and can dark get something to buff their BG cycle as a whole?

Is Pluto even a party player?

Ability 1: Her block generation is so damn slow. While it is nice how much Combo she has when those blocks are up, those blocks WILL be gone the next time she bursts. And then she can be block-less for a long time.
Ability 2: She has a pretty nice +Atk +Elem buff, but it consumes a block, has a short duration and long cooldown. Resulting in pathetic uptime and thus really only good for boosting your Full Burst turns.
Ability 3: She has damage cut, but suffers from the exact same problem. It's great-ish against Light (-50% damage cut for two turns is nice!), but against everything else the long cooldown just kills this entirely. Yay, you can save yourself from damage once. But it won't be ready for the second time, or even the third, so you'll just die anyway.
Burst: While it's nice to hit the 1000% burst modifier cap (or should I say 500% base + 500% modifier?) with ease thanks to blocks (starting from turn7), this is... pretty much all she does well.

Overall, I was impressed with Pluto when I rolled her, but now she just feels... off. She only has a place in the team for her high burst damage, which she does once per fight. I suppose if there was content that'd nicely cycle in 7 turns so that you could burst -> block up, it'd be nice-ISH... ... until you remember that her damage buff is too slow to keep up with that. But for now, you're either holding onto your abi1 until burst or bursting the blocks out and not having any for long periods of time.

Pluto just really needs an Awakening that puts her blocks outside of the 500% burst boost hard cap, speeds up her block generation significantly and lower the cooldowns of her partybuffs significantly. You know, so that there's actually be player choice on when to use blocks and when to save them for a higher burst.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Legos

Umm.

First thing first... legos aren't subjected to the 500% burst dmg up cap. So the numbers can get crazier.

Second... why would you hold on to skill 1 until bursting? The run would normally go like: cast skill 1 at turn 0, wait for turn 5 or so to burst because dark is a slow motherfucker but thank god for Shingen MEX, legos come back on turn 6.

Third... you're breezing over her DATA from legos. That can't fly. Pluto with legos is one of the only few consistently fast BG gainers in dark. Remember about da burst.

Dmg cut

Um. Friendly reminder that this is 50% dmg cut on the same hime that holds her own (or hell, even carries) in terms of damage output? That's kinda the problem of dissecting each move one by one... what about looking at the entire hime as a whole?

Also... find me another dark hime on meta which has that kinda dmg cut... Hades AW rebalance gets a light res but that don't come in until a year later.

Team player

The very definition of a team player never relied on the cd of their skills to begin with unless absolutely atrocious. I don't see Pluto holding back the rest of dark in that aspect, she's never the one to fall behind in BG, her burst is pretty good, she got that dmg cut. What other dark hime does this better?

Pluto AW

Well... I won't deny you that one. To me Pluto makes or breaks dark as a whole... which is kinda sad considering her skillset wouldn't be the most absolutely broken thing you witness (that title probably belongs to Mike AW or Iris...), attesting to how sad the dark meta will become. But one can only hope. It's been 1 year 2 months since the last dark AW.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Umm.


Um. Friendly reminder that this is 50% dmg cut on the same hime that holds her own (or hell, even carries) in terms of damage output? That's kinda the problem of dissecting each move one by one... what about looking at the entire hime as a whole?

Also... find me another dark hime on meta which has that kinda dmg cut... Hades AW rebalance gets a light res but that don't come in until a year later.


The very definition of a team player never relied on the cd of their skills to begin with unless absolutely atrocious. I don't see Pluto holding back the rest of dark in that aspect, she's never the one to fall behind in BG, her burst is pretty good, she got that dmg cut. What other dark hime does this better

2 things i would like to add to this
1. While it does have a 8T CD, it lasts for 2 T therefore you have it down for 6 Ts total, when you consider that most potent cuts from other himes are just 1 - 2 turns shorter on the CD and not as good. You might say Gaia AW's, Water Raphael or Water osiris's cuts are better but here is the thing, alternative himes are usually better than the common ones and Gaia i dont even have to mention due to the AW
2. The concept of a teamplayer does not relate to their CDs, take Metis for example: a future Light SR with a 60% cut, cleanse - debuff block for everyone but her, and a taunt - Dark RST up. Yes her CDs are high however everything she does is meant to support or help out the team, you can argue that maybe her CDs are so long it makes her bad, but questioning if they are a team player or not based on their CDs and not their spells is just absurd
Finally, as cobble said find some other team players outside of Pluto. Most dark himes fall into the stigma of them just doing their own thing. Berith and Osiris are the only 2 i can actually think of
2.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Umm.

First thing first... legos aren't subjected to the 500% burst dmg up cap. So the numbers can get crazier.

Are you sure? Since the first thing I did was go to 9 stacks and go "har har har this will be AMAAAZING" aaaaand... oh look, didn't even reach my cap of 1m. Considering how I get close to 1m with 3 blocks + PF, I could swear that they ARE included in the cap. Also, this page ONLY lists Uriel and Metatron AW as the ones who have buffs outside of the cap. The singular DMM wiki pages can be off really easily, though. Pluto's own page doesn't comment, I think.

I can retest this, I mean, I've only done it once. If she's not capped, then she'll be a ton better.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Second... why would you hold on to skill 1 until bursting? The run would normally go like: cast skill 1 at turn 0, wait for turn 5 or so to burst because dark is a slow motherfucker but thank god for Shingen MEX, legos come back on turn 6.

At the moment there's no way you'd burst on turn6. That'd require quite a few fast Hime. Maybe once Shingen MEX becomes a thing, but even when it does, is Dark going to have the debuffs to swap to Shingen without Sniper Shot? I fucked up in AQ5 and my Samael debuff wasn't ready for AQ5 boss today, and my Dark team hit like a wet noodle even with PF. I shudder to think how pitiful it'd be if it had been -0% Def without Herc Axe.

In the future I'll be able to comment better once I get to actually see just how good Shingen MEX is. Or how common debuff immune bullshit will be. Until then...

Anyway, back to the point. So, as I briefly mentioned before, the reason why you hold on to Pluto's first ability is because once you have the first set of blocks, any more just... isn't good for you. They'll just be gone once you burst, and you only need 4 to hit burst cap (one for buffing up the team, 3 for 300% + PF). So you need 4, you have 3. If you use abi1, you'll be at 6 - which means that two will be wasted unless you've needed your damage cut. Even if you have - you're still wasting one block. And those blocks come back on turn seven, not six. Six turn CD means that turns 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 need to end before you can re-use it. That's a long time. And Pluto NEEDS those blocks to be viable - she doesn't do shit without them! Thus, you get the dilemma of "uhhh, am I going to use this ability and have Pluto be garbage for a good amount of turns, or do I just use it for higher Combo chance right now and fuck the future?"
It's often not really a decision. Either you're in easy content and you just use it, or you're in hard content where you need to save it so that you won't risk Pluto of all things being your Full Burst bottleneck. Because Pluto IS your first slot, right?

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Third... you're breezing over her DATA from legos. That can't fly. Pluto with legos is one of the only few consistently fast BG gainers in dark. Remember about da burst.

"da burst"?

I did mention the Combo rate, but it's tied to the blocks. And the block generation on Pluto is just outright miserable, as I also mentioned. It simply does NOT sync with any content I've used Pluto in so far, which makes her already pitiful block generation even worse.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Um. Friendly reminder that this is 50% dmg cut on the same hime that holds her own (or hell, even carries) in terms of damage output? That's kinda the problem of dissecting each move one by one... what about looking at the entire hime as a whole?

I'm not sure about carries. She punches often, sure. Her burst packs a punch. But I dunno, I wouldn't call that a carry by itself. Is that better than a random SR? Sure. Is that better than SR Beelz? ... eeeh, probably? That's actually an interesting question to which I'll hopefully have an answer later today.

Also, again, that damage cut is only proper against LIGHT specifically. Eight turns is a LONG time, and in content where you need a damage cut, 30% just doesn't... cut it. In other words, if you're fighting against anything that does damage against you, it's going get AT LEAST three shots at you and Pluto can only help with one. That is NOT good. Meanwhile, comparing to other -30% Hime like Raiko or Snow Raphael, they can typically block half of the incoming fire. This means that without the Light bonus - which again eats into block generation and undercuts Pluto yet again - the damage cut ability is bad.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Also... find me another hime on meta which has that kinda dmg cut... Hades AW rebalance gets a light res but that don't come in until a year later.

Gaia! -60% against Thunder for 1t, plus -20% for another two turns after! Bonus points, Regen to take the brunt off the mitigated nuke. This can fairly easily not only entirely negate an entire attack, allowing you to take it fully next time. And for the third? Gaia will be ready again to entirely negate it. This on top of COMPLETELY removing all threat of any single-target nukes.

Of course, Pluto sits in slot1 whileas Gaia sits in slot4 for being the slowest Wind Hime around. And Pluto obviously bursts WAY harder.


Outside of Gaia, I'd much rather take Hime like the pre-mentioned Snow Raph or Raiko. Again, that faster cooldown just makes a better damage cut. It's like Pluto is trying to dabble into both offense and defense at the same time, and honestly, doesn't really succeed in it.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

The very definition of a team player never relied on the cd of their skills to begin with unless absolutely atrocious.

I... don't even understand what this means?

But cooldowns are an important part of things. There's a niche for 3t with 5t CD (spam it), there's a niche for extremely high buffs for 1t with 15t CD, but Pluto's 2t with 8t CD is... lackluster. In both offensive and defensive. Either the CD needs to be less, or the duration needs to be longer, or the power needs to be higher and the duration shorter (as in high buff for 1t on 8t CD).

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

I don't see Pluto holding back the rest of dark in that aspect, she's never the one to fall behind in BG, her burst is pretty good, she got that dmg cut. What other dark hime does this better?

I'm just questioning if she's really a team player or not. On paper, she seems great. In practice... she's not bad, but she just doesn't excel as one might think.

Out of interest, do you have Pluto yourself?

Originally Posted by Slashley

snip

Well then. This is gonna be a long night.

9 stacks

Ah, the caveat. What I meant when the legos weren't part of the 500% burst dmg up cap was that it's in a separate bracket. Whether that bracket has a cap... I'm not sure about that.

At the moment there's no way you'd burst on turn6. That'd require quite a few fast Hime.

I'd believed the point of this discussion to be the meta, and therefore, assume a situation where you'd have all the himes you'd need available. Given this consideration, I'm pretty sure dark could at least pull off a FB turn 6 at worst.

I don't understand your dilemma either tbh. Casting the legos early means you get your DATA buff early and Pluto's gonna be up fast and ready to burst early. Worst case scenario (very unlikely with the best setup) your skill cd comes off before you can FB, you just wait until you FB before you cast your legos. And if your team happens to be able to burst before she refreshes legos... then it's all about looking at what will come flying at you and whether you can afford to take it or not isn't it? If you see you need the dmg cut or you'll die before legos are up, then you hold off your FB for the moment and cast a timely dmg cut. Otherwise, cast legos and bombs away. Just a little bit of micromanagement and foresight.

Dmg cut

That isn't to say that a niche doesn't exist for Pluto does it? 50% dmg cut for 2t with a long ass cd? Sounds like a useful tool for a team that can get things done quickly, helps them soak a strong hit from enemies and then clean up, doesn't it? Or maybe even in raids, she's your backup in case your friendly neighbourhood Joans are still down on their cd.

I'm just questioning if she's really a team player or not.

Sure, you can have your doubts about Pluto if you compare it to other elements... but in the context of dark, she's almost the only team player dark has, if you simply define a team player by contributing useful buffs and not holding the team back, she does all of it! But since the rest of the dark cast just kinda up and does their own thing, I don't see anyone else really contesting Pluto for a spot as the better team player. She wins by default.

Out of interest, do you have Pluto yourself?

I wish. Only Thanatos and Amon U, in addition to that a non-functional grid that stems from not having any dark himes for the longest of times...

Also... 3am now so I'll need to drop to sleep soon... I'll pick up wherever this goes tmr I guess.