Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Well then that argument just stifles any discussion at all. No point in discussing the light meta if you're going to be using your own hime pool as a comparison.--

The point is, having "the perfect Light team" isn't that easy even if you can "mix and match pretty much whatever."

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

--
The points have been there all along. No, really, I'm asking you to find another dark hime that does 50% cut, has decent DATA and burst dmg, supports FB spike damage the way Pluto does in a single hime. I'm serious. --

You know, you can list literally any Hime's three skills and go "tell me another one that does exactly this, and by the way, only from this very element." No matter how serious you are, that question is obviously set up.

Originally Posted by Slashley

The point is, having "the perfect Light team" isn't that easy even if you can "mix and match pretty much whatever."

You know, you can list literally any Hime's three skills and go "tell me another one that does exactly this, and by the way, only from this very element." No matter how serious you are, that question is obviously set up.

... Yes to both. I get a feeling this discussion is stalling if you're just gonna be aiming at my phrasing and context now.

Originally Posted by Slashley

I guess we simply entirely agree on the definition of a team player ￣\_(ツ)_/￣

My view on it is probably just entirely twisted as a person who absolutely loves pure support builds in MMOs that cannot do anything for themselves - something that seems entirely extinct these days. Somebody who doesn't contribute through their own damage, but earn their spot through boosting the everliving shit out of the rest of players DPS, now that's a team player *cough*Light Nike*cough*. Not something retarded that you find in today's MMOs, who carries their share of the damage AND just happens to have a party related booster. That's not a support build, that's just a DPS build who was given a party booster by the devs to make it more appealing. Pluto is part of the latter, and I just reject such a definition.

I guess you don't like hybrids then. Don't bring you MMOs terms here though, because it doesn't work very well. Funnily enough Light Nike work best with slow teams (so not very offensive ones), because otherwise she would slow everybody down, she's like full support that you wouldn't take to party, because she just doesn't work in it... no, just don't use MMOs terms here.

Originally Posted by Slashley

If we look at the perfect ultra-whale teams, or the "only spend MTs on Light ever" teams that lag a bit behind, yeah, true. But as somebody pointed out, the perfect Light team has no place for monsters when it's full of gods.

However, as we're leaning more and more towards "play with elemental advantage," how much can we expect everyone to have the perfect team? When the game was new, we could expect that players would have one perfect or near-perfect team thanks to just one/two MTs giving you your element's hard carries. Nowadays, does that apply?

But since "just throw Light at it" meme is about to get very serious for the next year, do we start to expect that everyone is MTing for the perfect Light teams?

At the very least, I don't think that we can start assuming that everyone has the perfect team for every element. There are players like that, but focusing discussion purely on such a premise doesn't seem productive.

Alright, first of there is no such thing as an "Ultra-team" or "Perfect", against Fire UL or Light ULs i use my Light meta burst team since i can wipe them in about 2 minutes, against a Dark Guardian i bring Light Hermes - (Lugh if there are other Andromedas with me) or Light Tsukuyomi - Metis - Michael, against something like AQ7 i remove Light Tsukuyomi for someone like Tish or Atum. But you should be able to get the point
Secondly, you seem to have this idea that simply a full meta SSR team will get you into the whale tier .No one team can work against everything and no one team can cover everything. The whales you see on DMM are defined by the extent that they got their grid to mainly being phantom grids with hime-himeless weapons and their eido grid are a couple kaisers - guardians. Hell i can even testify as having 3 himes for the burst meta and i'm only doing mediocre (5-6M ish non PF FBs) damage because guess what? I only have the grid of a f2p

Most Light Hime has the concept of either being able to perform their own niche amazingly well or just simply multi tasking at a good level. Raphael - Lugh - Sol - Metatron - Kanako(I can't recall her actual jap name)- Light Athena all does their own thing supremely well, while others like Michae (with her AW)-Tish-Eros (with her recent AW) hell even Atum after her rebalance can multi task as a healer -support - damage ability teams

Oh and nice cherry picking out my arguement about Valentine's Baal. She has no place in the perfect meta burst team for dummies or shit that already has people filling her spot, not that she doesn't fit anywhere in the use of Light teams

Originally Posted by Slashley

I never said that everyone should be expected to have a Light Nike.Well, example my Light team is Sol, Shamash and Frey. What perfect mix and match Light team do I get?

Again, I don't think we should expect everyone to have a perfect team in every element, no matter how much you want to mix and match.And I don't see how Pluto literally makes Dark. She does her own thing and does alright in it. Many other Dark SSRs do the same.

Unless (true) Light Rag has seven bubbles, I simply don't know why having Pluto or not would make or break anything.

Have you forgotten the existence of SRs? You just strawmanned cobble's arguement and ignoring the rule of "Don't try to fit all SSRs in a single team if a SR could help you out even more". Light Rs- Light SRs are also worthy of frontlines. Sol - Shamash - Diana - Freyr or even SRs - Rs for that final slot depending on the content you are up against is enough for a team, mixing and matching requires you to have himes for it to work, you list out 3 himes disregarding other good himes of other rarities and you think that's a response to the concept of "Mixing and matching"?

Here is a possible decent team for you even with just the bare essentials right now Herc with sniper shot - Daphne - Aten - Kuvera - Caspiel
Future Rs
Herc - Daphne - Aten - Caspiel - Luchta (Cleanse)

Herc - Daphne - Aten - Caspiel - Circe (Instant Burst)

Herc - Daphne - Aten - Kuvera - Yagamihime (Aggro management + Regen)

Or with SRs (

Herc - Sati - Diana - Kuvera - Attar or Belobog

Herc - Sati - Belobog - Attar - Demeter

Future himes builds

Herc - Demeter (Diana) - Caspiel - Metis (for defense) - Light Hermes (amazing against enemies with alot of DATA or against Dark acts as an orb eater - Chaos Magic)

Herc - Demeter (Diana) - Attar - Forseti - Metis or Light hermes

With SSRs

Maximum dmg: SHG - Lugh - Iris - Tish - Mike / Meta - Kanako

AAB for GO/AQ7: HERC - Mike - Athena - Eros - Vishnu / SSArty - Iris

Raid Event: ART w/ Herc Axe - Meta - Mike - Iris - Eros / Kanako - SSArty

vs DCat: SHG - Lugh - Tish - Mike - Sol / Iris - Atum

vs Aratron: SHG - Lugh - Iris - Mike - Sol / Meta - Atum

vs Bethor: Herc - Iris - Athena - Sol - Eros / SSArty - Atum

OLD vs FCat: SHG - Kanako - Mike - Shamash - Sol / Meta - SSArty

SHG/BStrk - Meta (Ancient set) - Kanako (Brooch set) - Mike (Normal set) - Ithaqua (Off ele Sac. Pawn No.1) / Isis (Off ele Sac. Pawn No.2 + Buffer) - Freyr (Earring set) For Dummy version 2
(All of these lists belong to Bear)

Rs alone can already mix and match into a well rounded team, doesn't take a genius to realize they can't achieve the absolute state of meta combinations but it covers everything and that's the point of mixing and matching. The cherry on top? You have the option to switch out the himes i listed above with your 3 SSRs, Daphne - Aten - Belobog - Attar - Sati (Diana - Demeter) - Metis - Light Hermes depending on whatevere the fuck you are fighting and still make it work

Those teams can get you steam rolling GOs if you had bothered to make your grid above mediocre (I left nutaku awhile back but as far as i know there was a Phoenix reprint, Yule goat and a Light UE with FLBs which has Ascension so if you haven't SL em and make some fucking use of your Sol before complaining you can't have a well rounded team).

Originally Posted by Slashley

The point is, having "the perfect Light team" isn't that easy even if you can "mix and match pretty much whatever."You know, you can list literally any Hime's three skills and go "tell me another one that does exactly this, and by the way, only from this very element." No matter how serious you are, that question is obviously set up.

Can't believe we are back to fucking Pluto again. Whether what cobble said is a "set up" or not is irrelevant to me, what matters is that it is fact. Dark has what for damage cuts? Cerunnos, Pluto, Hades rebalance, Hypnos, Ereshkigal (already stated before you shouldn't even bother with this one). Hypnos isn't ideal for Light High rags since her multi hit isn't much to go by and her sleep will go to shit, Hades as i said outside of her debuff resistance that may stall you a turn and that little resistance is worthless, that leaves you with Cerunnos and Pluto as the most 2 potent damage cuts possible for Dark.

If you don't wanna change your definition of a team player because of old MMOs that's completely fine, people are entitled to their own opinions, i myself just simply define it as someone who helps the team. How you may ask? That goes a long way for many things in this game. You can consider debuff slaves like Ryu-oh, Hades, Samael, Light Tsukuyomi, Cthulu before her AW, Mammon and both SSRs and SR version of Amateratsu (The fire one if you really wanna the push it has the value of a pathetic regen and a decent def up) and even Hastur, you might say "Well she has a nuke and ATK buff" a measly 20% that can be applied by other himes or even other arthurs and a nuke about 600k as the cap only if you are hitting for 150k basics to reliably cap is not useful for end game fights. Their greatest limititation lies in the slave, their are good for nothing if they can't land their debuffs. Therefore, i prefer the types that gravitate the towards the buffing spectrum, i will even indulge you and say other cuts are superior like Gaia AW's, Water Osiris, Water Raphael, Athena, Raiko and the list goes on and these himes all have teamplay values within their own teams

The sub genre of "team players" also varies, against a Dark Guardian Light Hermes can be one hell of a team player with her ability to draw in most of the attacks, the orb eater - cleanse to deal with its myriad of buffs, against a Light High Rag you have Berith as a team player due to her defiance and her amazing taunt - berserk - intercept to cover your ass against the non raging 3 hit and those death beams, same goes for Minvera and Isis against a Thunder High rag, i could go on and on but you get the idea of how a "teamplayer" may vary in certain situations. A member here (itoshira) said it best, the tier, usefulness and their efficiency changes and varies depending on content, rarily or about no hime is good for everything

However, that does not alternate the fact that outside of Pluto and Cerunnos Dark has jack shit as far as actual team players goes for Dark, you can say that Osiris, Satan AW, Agaliarepth, Berith, Bastet (subline and basically a weapon), Erebus - Summer Gaia if you have it. Now you might think this is alot i'm listing out but i should mention that this team is basically the picture perfect team one can hope for against End game light fights and 2 units are limited so take it as you will (DMM also removed all season limiteds from jewels so whaling is your only way to them now). That's how fucked Dark is right now as an element due to negligence on the DMM side

Conclusion? I need to re emphasize this. Cobble, gluda and i are not trying to highlight how amazing pluto is as an unit, there are better her yes, however when you take it in the context of dark as a whole right now, she's good in that context and nowhere else

EDIT: Oh and to make clear about the debuff slaves part, the idea of having one unit taking care of reducing the boss's damage or having that one unit raise your team damage from debuffs can be considered doing something for the team
EDIt 2: Fucked up on Berith, Berserk not reflect
Final note: you are gonna see a shit ton of edits since i was sleepy when i wrote this

Originally Posted by Gludateton

Funnily enough Light Nike work best with slow teams (so not very offensive ones), because otherwise she would slow everybody down, she's like full support that you wouldn't take to party, because she just doesn't work in it...

Whoa whoa whoa... hold on there, there must be some confusion going on around here. Light Nike doesn't slow anyone down and she's very offensive. She just takes a while to get to thermo nuclear power level. She doesn't drain her own amulets like pluto does her blocks, so you don't have to wait for her or anything like that. This is the same with metatron AW or any other power houses. The problem with these isn't that they "slow the team" down, but rather they are all competing for one spot on the team, a spot that is generally best taken by Lugh because of how ridiculously fast she can build up her power (granted, at the cost to her own health). But if you are going to be bringing Tish, she can easily carry anyone that you don't have to actually wait for anyways (the other two - Michael and Iris - are just undisputed).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Whoa whoa whoa... hold on there, there must be some confusion going on around here. Light Nike doesn't slow anyone down and she's very offensive.

I may be mistaken here, but literally everyone in meta light team has some means of generating BG. There are some used that does not, but they are mostly used for provided utility (for example Sol AW). When you look at light it's ridiculous that pretty much every new light hime has means of generating BG faster, even goddamn Eros got +20 BG on affliction block.

Is Shamash+Raphael+Archangel a good start or should I keep rerolling for Managarmr?

Originally Posted by Gludateton

I may be mistaken here, but literally everyone in meta light team has some means of generating BG. There are some used that does not, but they are mostly used for provided utility (for example Sol AW). When you look at light it's ridiculous that pretty much every new light hime has means of generating BG faster, even goddamn Eros got +20 BG on affliction block.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Whoa whoa whoa... hold on there, there must be some confusion going on around here. Light Nike doesn't slow anyone down and she's very offensive. She just takes a while to get to thermo nuclear power level. She doesn't drain her own amulets like pluto does her blocks, so you don't have to wait for her or anything like that. This is the same with metatron AW or any other power houses. The problem with these isn't that they "slow the team" down, but rather they are all competing for one spot on the team, a spot that is generally best taken by Lugh because of how ridiculously fast she can build up her power (granted, at the cost to her own health). But if you are going to be bringing Tish, she can easily carry anyone that you don't have to actually wait for anyways (the other two - Michael and Iris - are just undisputed).

Originally Posted by Gludateton

I may be mistaken here, but literally everyone in meta light team has some means of generating BG. There are some used that does not, but they are mostly used for provided utility (for example Sol AW). When you look at light it's ridiculous that pretty much every new light hime has means of generating BG faster, even goddamn Eros got +20 BG on affliction block.

New hime:

Tishtrya - Ally 50% TA, Passive Self 10BG on use of an Ability
Takeminakata - GTA for 3T
Michael AW - Party 20BG on 7CD, and then Party 20BG on Burst
Metatron AW - Instant Burst. Her unique mechanic also allows her to do up to 3 consecutive Bursts in a row.
Lugh - Spammable 400k Nuke that gives Self 20BG, and gets powered up for 2T after burst to do 700k Nuke & gives 30BG. Currently one of the Top fastest hime in game, if not THE fastest.
Iris - Spammable Self Unique Buff button that also gives Self 10BG. After activation of her unique buff she can benefit from DA/TA/Enthusiasm(Zeal w/o DoT) for fast BG on top of other broken buffs.
Michiru - Self DATA up. Passive taunt against ALL enemies & DATA boost against Dark enemies.
Hastur - High Passive DATA boost base on number of her gimmick tokens.
VD Baal - Party 30% TA. Self GTA after Burst. Passive Party 5BG every time she scores a DATA.
Eros AW - Party 20BG whenever an Affliction is blocked. Bursting will reset her Affliction Absorption skill's CD, giving you more opportunity to generate BG.

Existing Hime:
Vishnu - 10BG on Ability usage, with TWO of her Abilities being on 1CD, on top of one of them having a Self Stackable 20%/stack DATA buff. Probably the next fastest hime closely after Lugh & Fire Freyr.

Old hime rebalance:
Shamash - Increased Taunt to her Intercept skill on top of gaining a Guaranteed Blob Eater on Burst.
Freyr - Self 20BG Nuke. Up from 15 before rebalance. Also gains Echo dmg on Burst.
Satan - GDA becomes GDATA, no longer locking her out from TA.
Artemis - Self 20BG after Burst, on top of her self (upgraded) buff may now also buff a chosen ally at the same time.


Slow hime

Sol AW - ... pikan?
Raphy AW - Debuff slave. Blob eater.
Tsukuyomi - Former debuff slave (Er... Still kinda is). Gains Echo dmg after Burst after rebalance. Also receives a new Passive that makes her practically invincible against all enemies that like to spam Poison DoT: Self Heal on Dark Dmg.
Atum - Gets a very powerful toolkit after rebalance: Single Ally 50% Vigor, skill CD resets on Burst.
Athena - Currently one of the most powerful tank in game
Nike

So... Only 5 hime that are as slow as Nike, with only Raphy AW who is the only one who's hardly more useful than Nike in terms of utility.

Here's the problem with Nike that made her benched by practically every Light vets with a decent roster on DMM, which is in fact already stated by yourself:
She takes forever to warm up. Even by non-Light's standard. And then what she brings to the table, 120% party assault, is easily replaceable. Just think about what you can do during these 12T she's warming up. Why should I bring her when I have Sol / Atum / Athena to keep my team at full hp to abuse my Vigor grid on top of keeping me alive? Why should I bring her over Tsukuyomi who can do easy 600~800k Echo dmg every 3~4T when she bursts (and that's not counting her own nukes against Dark enemies) while providing some nice debuff such as her powerful Blind in a chain gun build? Think about the opportunity trade-off of using her vs the others. Not saying Nike is weak, she's quite nice for beginners~average players in dealing with GO and AQ. But in the real end game such as Tower, Arena (Dummy Spanking) and High Rags, she's fails to entice as much as majority of the other Light SSRs do.

Originally Posted by Kuredo

Alright, first of there is no such thing as an "Ultra-team" or "Perfect", against Fire UL or Light ULs i use my Light meta burst team since i can wipe them in about 2 minutes, against a Dark Guardian i bring Light Hermes - (Lugh if there are other Andromedas with me) or Light Tsukuyomi - Metis - Michael, against something like AQ7 i remove Light Tsukuyomi for someone like Tish or Atum. But you should be able to get the point
Secondly, you seem to have this idea that simply a full meta SSR team will get you into the whale tier .No one team can work against everything and no one team can cover everything. The whales you see on DMM are defined by the extent that they got their grid to mainly being phantom grids with hime-himeless weapons and their eido grid are a couple kaisers - guardians. Hell i can even testify as having 3 himes for the burst meta and i'm only doing mediocre (5-6M ish non PF FBs) damage because guess what? I only have the grid of a f2p

Most Light Hime has the concept of either being able to perform their own niche amazingly well or just simply multi tasking at a good level. Raphael - Lugh - Sol - Metatron - Kanako(I can't recall her actual jap name)- Light Athena all does their own thing supremely well, while others like Michae (with her AW)-Tish-Eros (with her recent AW) hell even Atum after her rebalance can multi task as a healer -support - damage ability teams

Oh and nice cherry picking out my arguement about Valentine's Baal. She has no place in the perfect meta burst team for dummies or shit that already has people filling her spot, not that she doesn't fit anywhere in the use of Light teams

Thanks for the advice. That was useful. Did you come up with the list yourself?

I have Herc, Kanako (ahem), Mike, L. Athena, Iris // Metis, Sati
Tish just dropped for me while trying to pull for Val Baal. I have Herc Axe and no Shingen and no Lugh so she will be in the back row for now.
I am using the 40% elem. atk. BG up eid.
I noticed that 16/20 of the top teams for dummy GO3 are using Shingen, Mike, Lugh, Iris, Tish. I had doubts at first but I guess the numbers don't lie? So I suppose that Val Baal is more useful for the time being but Tish is more like a long term investment if you intend to MT Lugh.

Originally Posted by lalala

Thanks for the advice. That was useful. Did you come up with the list yourself?

I have Herc, Kanako (ahem), Mike, L. Athena, Iris // Metis, Sati
Tish just dropped for me while trying to pull for Val Baal. I have Herc Axe and no Shingen and no Lugh so she will be in the back row for now.
I am using the 40% elem. atk. BG up eid.
I noticed that 16/20 of the top teams for dummy GO3 are using Shingen, Mike, Lugh, Iris, Tish. I had doubts at first but I guess the numbers don't lie? So I suppose that Val Baal is more useful for the time being but Tish is more like a long term investment if you intend to MT Lugh.

VBaal is a bit of a odd case. In terms of the high-speed-meta, she aint gonna help and find no place there.
For people that are more on the mediocre level she can provide some nice utility.

Her sustain from her energy drain is not so bad, 250HP per attack at 75. With some ascension you can have a decent heal for inbetween. Her attack proc is okay, some extra damage and mitigation due to 20% atk down. I've seen worse abilities. Good part is, the procs are affected by your buffs, so you can increase it, just sadly has either a low multiplier or a low cap.
Triple attack combo rate works nice with Michael AWs double attack, gives you some speed.

In your case, you can even manage to make Herc Burst at Turn 2 because of the extra 5BG from her passive, which is kinda nice. I also use her in my Andro team in combo with LAthena to have more defensive options available.

All in all, she is a little allround package, nothing fancy, nothing bad.