Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Dejnov

So assume you have about 120% character assault from your weapon grid (9 weapons at 13% each) and a Soul weapon with 30% elemental assault. Currently your total assault bonus is 2.2X1.3 or a total of 2.86 assault upgrade.

Ouroboros would change that to 120% character X 70% elemental or 2.2X1.7 for a total of 3.74 assault.

Grimehkala would change it to 170% character X 30% elemental or 2.7 X 1.3 for a total of 3.51 assault.


In this example Ouroboros is clearly better.


Dejnov.

While I don't think you're wrong (I can't be bothered to check), I think you're only calculating one main Eidolon? Since people use P2W Friend Eidolons whenever you can, re-do those maths with Kirin. Also, add in elemental advantage to Elemental for an additional 0.45 modifier.

Originally Posted by Slashley

While I don't think you're wrong (I can't be bothered to check), I think you're only calculating one main Eidolon? Since people use P2W Friend Eidolons whenever you can, re-do those maths with Kirin. Also, add in elemental advantage to Elemental for an additional 0.45 modifier.

Dejnov's math looks right to me, but I think it's useful to make one change to his base case, which is to assume a 40% elemental friend eidolon:

- Ouroboros: (1+117%) * (1+30%+40%+40%) = 4.557
- Girimehkala: (1+117%+50%) * (1+30%+40%) = 4.539

This is a very useful base case since the two are roughly the same in this situation, so we can easily deduce which one is better when you make some changes. Namely, the following changes will make Ouroboros superior:
- You use char atk eidolon support instead
- You start getting SSR or FLB assault weapons
- You use himes with atk buffs

The following will make Girimehkala superior:
- You use 100% eidolon support
- You have elemental advantage
- You use himes with elemental buffs

I assert that the streak damage will not change the above qualitative conclusions (at least not by much). In case you are curious, here is the math though (highly preliminary and subject to check):

Let's take two extremes:

Case A, you can full burst every 4 turns with all 3* SSR himes (burst multiplier of 5). Assume DA/TA rate of 8% and 3%, so your average attack does 1.14x base damage. Then over 4 turns, each hime's damage will be:
- 4 x 1.14 (normal attack) + 5 (burst multiplier) + 5*50% (full burst streak) = 12.06
- Burst streak accounts for 2.5/12.06 = 20.7% of damage (all attacks are boosted by both eidolons, so we need to look at only the portion that is boosted by Girimehkala but not Ouroboros), so a 20% burst streak boost gives an additional 4.2% damage per turn on average.

Case B, you burst with only 4 himes every 8 turns with all 2* R himes (burst multiplier of 2.5). Then over 8 turns, each hime's damage will be:
- 8 x 1.14 (normal attack) + 2.5 (burst multiplier) + 2.5*33% (4 burst streak) = 12.45
- Burst streak accounts for 0.83/12.45 = 6.7% of damage, so a 20% burst streak boost gives only an additional 1.3% damage per turn on average.

Note that I have not attempted to include abilities damage, which would significantly reduce burst streak share of total damage. Higher DATA would similarly reduce streak share. On the other hand, burst damage boosts like PF, exceed weapons etc. will increase it. However, even if you hit the burst cap and use a burst multiplier of 10 in Case A above, the burst streak boost is still worth only about 5.1%-ish. Not immaterial, but nowhere near the magnitude of throwing in elemental advantage or 100% eidolon into the equation.

Two final considerations:
i. sometimes you need spike damage to stun bosses, in which case, Girimehkala can be tactically better than Ouroboros even when her damage/turn is better on average.
ii. Girimehkala's active ability (cursed) is not helpful if the enemy doesn't heal, whereas Ourorboros' blind is very helpful if it lands

tl;dr - Ouroboros is better if you have a strong weapons grid and don't have 100% eidolon support and/or elemental advantages. Otherwise, Girimehkala is probably better. Burst streak buff is a nice bonus but isn't that important.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

- Ouroboros: (1+117%) * (1+30%+40%+40%) = 4.557
- Girimehkala: (1+117%+50%) * (1+30%+40%) = 4.539

This is a very useful base case since the two are roughly the same in this situation, so we can easily deduce which one is better when you make some changes. Namely, the following changes will make Ouroboros superior:
- You use char atk eidolon support instead
- You start getting SSR or FLB assault weapons
- You use himes with atk buffs

The following will make Girimehkala superior:
- You use 100% eidolon support
- You have elemental advantage
- You use himes with elemental buffs

Note that I have not attempted to include abilities damage, which would significantly reduce burst streak share of total damage. Higher DATA would similarly reduce streak share. On the other hand, burst damage boosts like PF, exceed weapons etc. will increase it. However, even if you hit the burst cap and use a burst multiplier of 10 in Case A above, the burst streak boost is still worth only about 5.1%-ish. Not immaterial, but nowhere near the magnitude of throwing in elemental advantage or 100% eidolon into the equation.

Two final considerations:
i. sometimes you need spike damage to stun bosses, in which case, Girimehkala can be tactically better than Ouroboros even when her damage/turn is better on average.
ii. Girimehkala's active ability (cursed) is not helpful if the enemy doesn't heal, whereas Ourorboros' blind is very helpful if it lands

First of thanks for the really detailed, and insightful, adder to my basic attempt. This was definitely instructive!

One thing, or memory shortcut, I'd like to emphasize from the analysis earlier is that the final attack results of the Ouroboros and Girimehkala examples are darn close.

When you have elemental advantage, maxed soul weapon, and a near maxed grid, you should think of 40% elemental as being equivalent to 50% character. Without elemental advantage and the spread is greater than 1.2:1.0 (elemental:character) and with a 100% eidolon it'll come close to 1.0:1.0 ratio. You can use that as a shortcut when you're looking through the friend list to just pick the 'available best' one not the 'theoretical best' one.


Dejnov.

Uuuuuuh guys?

Base combo rate is 8% + 3%, right?
Tiara Set Bonus is 15% + 15%, right?
100 Double Union Grail buff is 25%, right?
Tiamat is about 5%, right?
So I should have... about 71% Combo, right...? So how come I have more like 90%+?

I had to watch like four AABs before to confirm that I actually CAN miss a Combo attack. It should be noted that my Water Grid is starting to be an antique by now. I'm still playing the catch-up game from quitting for four months, focusing on modernizing one element at a time for each Tower. All I have 30 slvl of Triple in one Sloth Glaive - no Phantom Glaive or anything. According to DMM wiki, that's 1.5% more combo. I'm not running Shingen nor Aphrodite either.

Something is amiss, and I'd very much like to know what exactly it is.

It might be because UE boss' rage bar does not scale with Stage so it's constantly in stun mode, that increases combo rate iirc. Then if you're lucky in normal/rage phases, you feel that you have a combo rate of 90%+. That's my guess at least.

I've currently cleared floor 12 in the tower, and haven't done my matches yet for today. I think this is about the highest I've made it. I think I'm out of decent Fires I can use at this point though, and I've already done one floor using my Darks. I haven't used my Lights yet, but I want to make sure I use them at the right time. I've not lost any battles, but I missed two missions so far, one each on floors 11 and 6. 6 would be easy enough to do, I just didn't bring many hime to conserve and lost one.


Any recommendations? I really don't think what Fires I have available will be able to handle this floor's two consecutive bosses, so I'm thinking I should use my Lights and see if they can pull it off. But that means I won't have them if I do get to a higher floor, too. At that point I guess I'd stop trying to advance and clean up the missions I missed?

Do you have the himes and grid to run floor 13 with another element though? If you do, you could aim for Completion+5 or more alive bonus which is 550 medals. Then that leaves Light open for 14. If you don't, then use Light now and do a little math.
2 keys for 14th floor, use one to shave off HP and another to kill, getting Completion+2Offense missions for 550 medals. Only if possible to do it with 2 keys. (275 medal per key) If it takes a 3rd key to complete and achieve both, that's 183.3 medal per key.
1 key to complete a mission from floor 6, since you mentioned survival, that's 200 medal, with a possible maximum 50 turn bonus. 250 medal for 1 key.
1 key to complete a mission from floor 11, not sure which so I'll assume lowest medal, that's also 200, with maximum 50 turn bonus. 250~300 for 1 key.

You use 1 on 13, that leaves you with 3. So how to maximize profit with the 3 remaining keys is dependent on how you assess your teams.

Also, a strategy you can consider when planning for next tower. There are 2 ways to go at it:
Play on days 1-5, rest on 6-7, all himes available on 8th.
Play only on days 1/2 or both, 5, 8. This gives you maximum flexibility as your Himes will all be off cooldown on day 5 and 8.

Another thing is, try to research ahead of time which himes/comp you will be using for each floor. You could use Cobble's guide, or look up previous Tower info on the wiki to know requirements and a rough understanding of fight mechanics. Then make an excel with Day:Floor:Requirement(mission):Himes(by R/SR/SSR).

Originally Posted by kyc992

Also, a strategy you can consider when planning for next tower. There are 2 ways to go at it:
Play on days 1-5, rest on 6-7, all himes available on 8th.
Play only on days 1/2 or both, 5, 8. This gives you maximum flexibility as your Himes will all be off cooldown on day 5 and 8.

Another thing is, try to research ahead of time which himes/comp you will be using for each floor. You could use Cobble's guide, or look up previous Tower info on the wiki to know requirements and a rough understanding of fight mechanics. Then make an excel with Day:Floor:Requirement(mission):Himes(by R/SR/SSR).

You don't have to work that hard or plan that hard... just copy Slashley's strategy from the event thread. He's done all the heavy thinking for you already.


Dejnov.

Hmm, maybe I'll just skip it for today and deal with it tomorrow when more himes have refreshed. Not wise since I work tomorrow and won't have a whole lot of time, but I also only have two hours left before I want to go to sleep and have other stuff I want to do.
Appreciate the tips, I've been going into this mostly blind other than the advice I got a month ago or so that Solomon would carry me to the 8th floor.

Originally Posted by Argo

Solomon would carry me to the 8th floor.

Reading that made me realize how badly my fire grid sucks, haha. I started struggling with Solomon on 6th floor. By 9th floor, I went off element 'cos my best fire team got wiped (and I had 3 SSRs on that team...)