Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Slashley

It's really, really difficult for me to say that "Oh yeah, Joan is totally better." If you really need more turns, then Joan WITH BP is bloody amazing though

We were discussing this in context of a fire setup though. All you said is correct, but you disregard the fact that bringing f.e. Sniper Joan over Sniper Mordred will allow you to bring Ares over Raguel and since all you need to do is burn those 2m HP within those 7 turns, the nuking + burst potential of Ares just completely outclass Raguels. This is the reason Joan beats Mordred in such scenarios imo: He does 2 jobs at once. Handling OD and brings the A frame Atk down.

Ofc BP has a lot of uses, the weaker you are, the more often you need it and especially Mordred is still the King of off-ele no matter what. I just don't like disregarding the biggest strength fire has (nuking potential to bypass the difficult parts).

Originally Posted by Slashley

Really though, the only way for either of us to prove our points would be to strip away an Eidolon or two, strip away weapons until you have like... 70% power? And then we're probably roughly around the entry point to AQ4 content. Then you'd just need to record a run with both Joan and a run with BP. But I, at least, am certainly not going to bother.

Or let samdan try both and tell us his thoughts.

Originally Posted by nonsensei

No, we can't. (Starting at 14 mins, apparently the link doesn't jump there for some reason).--

You had 43k total power by this point. That's hardly a new player level, by which I mean the time when AQ4 starts being doable. Although your video doesn't comment on how high your Grid is. But based on your HP, around ~30% Defenders from two Defender SSRs, I can assume that it was quite high (or did you upgrade Defenders first?).

Also, you had Sol when AQ was released and you didn't exploit -70% Atk?

Originally Posted by nonsensei

You also forget that AQ4's threat isn't the boss alone, the only place where BP really matters.

Not at all - many mobs from wave1 are really useful to BP. Like the second mob in Wind if you have enough damage to kill two mobs in four turns. A new player probably doesn't, so it's probably better off to not use (as this means that you get less "free turns" when the mobs are just buffing up on a buff that doesn't stack).

In Wind wave2 Wind, Joan can either damage cut the first, small AoE or you can wait to cut the buffed AoE - but not both. And you'll be in trouble if you're not about to kill the mid-boss when the third one is approaching. Again, BP giving you WAY more turns until this soft-limit comes up.

Overall, I'd rather have BP in all AQ content than Joan's damage cut. There are certainly ones where it isn't particularly useful (like Dark wave1 for example), but these ones don't gain anything from damage cut either.

Originally Posted by Slashley

You had 43k total power by this point. That's hardly a new player level, by which I mean the time when AQ4 starts being doable.

Which brings us here..

Originally Posted by nonsensei

(not to mention new guys won't deal with AQ4, anyway).

Originally Posted by Slashley

Although your video doesn't comment on how high your Grid is. But based on your HP, around ~30% Defenders from two Defender SSRs, I can assume that it was quite high (or did you upgrade Defenders first?).

Also, you had Sol when AQ was released and you didn't exploit -70% Atk?

Heck if I remember... Most things were probably around SL10, I believe, some maybe more as a preparation for Nicholas raid, which I decided to farm back then.
As for the 70% atk debuff... I don't like using such cheesings in my vids. That thing was only alive for a month, anyway.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Not at all - many mobs from wave1 are really useful to BP. Like the second mob in Wind if you have enough damage to kill two mobs in four turns. A new player probably doesn't, so it's probably better off to not use (as this means that you get less "free turns" when the mobs are just buffing up on a buff that doesn't stack).

In Wind wave2 Wind, Joan can either damage cut the first, small AoE or you can wait to cut the buffed AoE - but not both. And you'll be in trouble if you're not about to kill the mid-boss when the third one is approaching. Again, BP giving you WAY more turns until this soft-limit comes up.

Overall, I'd rather have BP in all AQ content than Joan's damage cut. There are certainly ones where it isn't particularly useful (like Dark wave1 for example), but these ones don't gain anything from damage cut either.

That sounds great & all, but where exactly do you find himes to cover for other debuffs as a new guy? Not to mention, Sniper Shot is probably the best idea at the very least against the mobs, since it's AoE, as opposed to any other hero debuff and actually covers 2 debuff (atk/def).

I'm still wondering how we ended up discussing AQ4 stuff if we're talking about a new guy.

Once again considering Joan + Ares vs. Mordred + Raguel

Originally Posted by Slashley

Not at all - many mobs from wave1 are really useful to BP. Like the second mob in Wind if you have enough damage to kill two mobs in four turns. A new player probably doesn't, so it's probably better off to not use (as this means that you get less "free turns" when the mobs are just buffing up on a buff that doesn't stack).

BP buys you one overdrive turn on 1 opponent, Ares nuke does about as much damage as an entire attack turn, making it much easier to kill off the first ones.

Originally Posted by Slashley

In Wind wave2 Wind, Joan can either damage cut the first, small AoE or you can wait to cut the buffed AoE - but not both. And you'll be in trouble if you're not about to kill the mid-boss when the third one is approaching. Again, BP giving you WAY more turns until this soft-limit comes up.

Wind wave 2 has 3 Orbs, so you're just increasing it from 4 turns per OD to 5. Sure it helps, but on the other hand, with joan you have 5% more atk down, which also helps and tbh, if you lack the damage to kill this boss in 8 turns, then you're doomed for wave 3 anyways.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Overall, I'd rather have BP in all AQ content than Joan's damage cut. There are certainly ones where it isn't particularly useful (like Dark wave1 for example), but these ones don't gain anything from damage cut either.

While this on it's own is true, if you can replace Raguel by someone way better, then Joan wins hands down.

Originally Posted by nonsensei

I'm still wondering how we ended up discussing AQ4 stuff if we're talking about a new guy.

Not sure! But people are going to want to do AQ4 ASAP, so it's not like it's entirely unrelated.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

BP buys you one overdrive turn on 1 opponent, Ares nuke does about as much damage as an entire attack turn, making it much easier to kill off the first ones.

That's true, roughly ~4.6 attacks, though exact number depends on Grid (this is with 80% Assault). Bonus points for Heph who takes this to a whopping ~6.4! And Awakened Ares will hit far, far harder.

However, keep in mind that Ares' nuke goes all over the place. This damage is not to a single enemy, but spread across multiple enemies. This might not matter against Wind wave1 since the mobs are identical, though it depends on are your debuffs AoE or not.

Originally Posted by nonsensei

Wind wave 2 has 3 Orbs, so you're just increasing it from 4 turns per OD to 5. Sure it helps, but on the other hand, with joan you have 5% more atk down, which also helps and tbh, if you lack the damage to kill this boss in 8 turns, then you're doomed for wave 3 anyways.

I'm... not exactly sold on that doom-say. The amount of damage you can output when you save up your abilities + Full Burst to the start of the wave3 Rage phase is much higher than one might expect. I'm... not entirely sure if failed to meet that DPS check in the midboss also mean automatic loss against the actual boss.

For example, it's fully possible that you absolutely need to use your cooldowns against wave1 AND a full burst, because wave1 is DANGEROUS when you're fighting against 3 mobs with +150% Atk buffs. At best your Atk debuffs taking them down from 250% -> 200%, so hardly even be a notable difference... that's why I fucking HATED Wind AQ as it was such a complete pain in the ass until I got Amaterasu. So anyway - after you're entirely dry from wave1, you then have 8~10 turns to unleash hell on the midboss. 8 turns to Full Burst is... unreliable.

But once you clear the mid-boss, the last boss isn't all that bad. Unless you're fighting with elemental DISadvantage, the damage output of the boss isn't particularly threatening. You do need a fair amount DPS to clear the rage phase, but it's certainly not that bad assuming you can get a clean transition off. Hell, I used to let BP expire from the boss just to that I could better control transitions. It took me easily 15-20 turns to hit Rage, and yet I cleared Rage in time, at most eating one Overdrive.

Ares also have the ability to burst by turn 4 if you get the RNG right.

BP stops being relevant for AQ4 when you have reached certain grid level. You'd prefer for boss to OD earlier because you can do a lot of damage to push boss to rage in 3 turn, so eating non rage OD is the better option than rage OD.

What often overlooked is that Joan also has a DA buff that have a quite decent proc rate.

At the end of the day, whether you run Joan + Ares or Modred + Raquel depends on who you have for next 2 slots and where your grid is currently at. Do I have enough damage to not need BP so I can run all SSR lineup to maximise my burst damage? Do I not have enough damage that I need BP to reduce how often I take overdrive?

Team building is often regarded as simple exercise. It's probably not as simple as many people would've liked.

Originally Posted by nonsensei

I'm still wondering how we ended up discussing AQ4 stuff if we're talking about a new guy.

A "new guy" with all but 2 souls.

Then why is 40k+ total power so unimaginable, I wonder.

On a side note, this is getting unnecessarily long, like numerous discussions I've seen in this thread. Maybe it's just me not being used to forum discussion, tho.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

A "new guy" with all but 2 souls.

It is possible, many people play the game very casually. Even if you've played the game from the start, if you've never maxed a single SSR and haven't bothered at all with the game mechanics, you're still quite... new.

Is it worth attempting to farm multiple MLB of the Raid Shop weapons? I mean, I understand the amount of time that entails, but is it even worth a second thought?