Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

The highly simplified damage formula is:

Base ATK x (1+assault) x (1+elemental) x (1+special)

Character attack goes into the assault value, which is where weapons assault and pride values go as well. Elemental includes elemental advantages. The nature of the formula means that you always want to increase the type that is the lowest.

When you are starting out and you have no weapon skills, anything that gives you the highest % is best. When you start leveling your weapons grid, assault tends to be much higher than elemental, so elemental becomes much more valuable. In theory, special attack is the most valuable since you can't get that from weapons at all (yet), but there are often special conditions attached to making the special attack active, which make them a pain to use.

tl;dr - elemental is usually the best for eidolons.

Since elemental is usually better, would that mean that Ouroboros (Dark/Thunder atk 40%) be better than Girimehkala (Thunder char atk 50%) for my thunder (secondary team) in the long run? Or would Giri additional burst streak dmg would make her superior? I'm working thunder slowly but don't have any of the assault weapon skills leveled so I would assume at the start that Giri would be better till I near maxed the assault skills

Originally Posted by ChaoticShinra

Since elemental is usually better, would that mean that Ouroboros (Dark/Thunder atk 40%) be better than Girimehkala (Thunder char atk 50%) for my thunder (secondary team) in the long run? Or would Giri additional burst streak dmg would make her superior? I'm working thunder slowly but don't have any of the assault weapon skills leveled so I would assume at the start that Giri would be better till I near maxed the assault skills

So assume you have about 120% character assault from your weapon grid (9 weapons at 13% each) and a Soul weapon with 30% elemental assault. Currently your total assault bonus is 2.2X1.3 or a total of 2.86 assault upgrade.

Ouroboros would change that to 120% character X 70% elemental or 2.2X1.7 for a total of 3.74 assault.

Grimehkala would change it to 170% character X 30% elemental or 2.7 X 1.3 for a total of 3.51 assault.


In this example Ouroboros is clearly better.


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

So assume you have about 120% character assault from your weapon grid (9 weapons at 13% each) and a Soul weapon with 30% elemental assault. Currently your total assault bonus is 2.2X1.3 or a total of 2.86 assault upgrade.

Ouroboros would change that to 120% character X 70% elemental or 2.2X1.7 for a total of 3.74 assault.

Grimehkala would change it to 170% character X 30% elemental or 2.7 X 1.3 for a total of 3.51 assault.


In this example Ouroboros is clearly better.


Dejnov.

While I don't think you're wrong (I can't be bothered to check), I think you're only calculating one main Eidolon? Since people use P2W Friend Eidolons whenever you can, re-do those maths with Kirin. Also, add in elemental advantage to Elemental for an additional 0.45 modifier.

Originally Posted by Slashley

While I don't think you're wrong (I can't be bothered to check), I think you're only calculating one main Eidolon? Since people use P2W Friend Eidolons whenever you can, re-do those maths with Kirin. Also, add in elemental advantage to Elemental for an additional 0.45 modifier.

Dejnov's math looks right to me, but I think it's useful to make one change to his base case, which is to assume a 40% elemental friend eidolon:

- Ouroboros: (1+117%) * (1+30%+40%+40%) = 4.557
- Girimehkala: (1+117%+50%) * (1+30%+40%) = 4.539

This is a very useful base case since the two are roughly the same in this situation, so we can easily deduce which one is better when you make some changes. Namely, the following changes will make Ouroboros superior:
- You use char atk eidolon support instead
- You start getting SSR or FLB assault weapons
- You use himes with atk buffs

The following will make Girimehkala superior:
- You use 100% eidolon support
- You have elemental advantage
- You use himes with elemental buffs

I assert that the streak damage will not change the above qualitative conclusions (at least not by much). In case you are curious, here is the math though (highly preliminary and subject to check):

Let's take two extremes:

Case A, you can full burst every 4 turns with all 3* SSR himes (burst multiplier of 5). Assume DA/TA rate of 8% and 3%, so your average attack does 1.14x base damage. Then over 4 turns, each hime's damage will be:
- 4 x 1.14 (normal attack) + 5 (burst multiplier) + 5*50% (full burst streak) = 12.06
- Burst streak accounts for 2.5/12.06 = 20.7% of damage (all attacks are boosted by both eidolons, so we need to look at only the portion that is boosted by Girimehkala but not Ouroboros), so a 20% burst streak boost gives an additional 4.2% damage per turn on average.

Case B, you burst with only 4 himes every 8 turns with all 2* R himes (burst multiplier of 2.5). Then over 8 turns, each hime's damage will be:
- 8 x 1.14 (normal attack) + 2.5 (burst multiplier) + 2.5*33% (4 burst streak) = 12.45
- Burst streak accounts for 0.83/12.45 = 6.7% of damage, so a 20% burst streak boost gives only an additional 1.3% damage per turn on average.

Note that I have not attempted to include abilities damage, which would significantly reduce burst streak share of total damage. Higher DATA would similarly reduce streak share. On the other hand, burst damage boosts like PF, exceed weapons etc. will increase it. However, even if you hit the burst cap and use a burst multiplier of 10 in Case A above, the burst streak boost is still worth only about 5.1%-ish. Not immaterial, but nowhere near the magnitude of throwing in elemental advantage or 100% eidolon into the equation.

Two final considerations:
i. sometimes you need spike damage to stun bosses, in which case, Girimehkala can be tactically better than Ouroboros even when her damage/turn is better on average.
ii. Girimehkala's active ability (cursed) is not helpful if the enemy doesn't heal, whereas Ourorboros' blind is very helpful if it lands

tl;dr - Ouroboros is better if you have a strong weapons grid and don't have 100% eidolon support and/or elemental advantages. Otherwise, Girimehkala is probably better. Burst streak buff is a nice bonus but isn't that important.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

- Ouroboros: (1+117%) * (1+30%+40%+40%) = 4.557
- Girimehkala: (1+117%+50%) * (1+30%+40%) = 4.539

This is a very useful base case since the two are roughly the same in this situation, so we can easily deduce which one is better when you make some changes. Namely, the following changes will make Ouroboros superior:
- You use char atk eidolon support instead
- You start getting SSR or FLB assault weapons
- You use himes with atk buffs

The following will make Girimehkala superior:
- You use 100% eidolon support
- You have elemental advantage
- You use himes with elemental buffs

Note that I have not attempted to include abilities damage, which would significantly reduce burst streak share of total damage. Higher DATA would similarly reduce streak share. On the other hand, burst damage boosts like PF, exceed weapons etc. will increase it. However, even if you hit the burst cap and use a burst multiplier of 10 in Case A above, the burst streak boost is still worth only about 5.1%-ish. Not immaterial, but nowhere near the magnitude of throwing in elemental advantage or 100% eidolon into the equation.

Two final considerations:
i. sometimes you need spike damage to stun bosses, in which case, Girimehkala can be tactically better than Ouroboros even when her damage/turn is better on average.
ii. Girimehkala's active ability (cursed) is not helpful if the enemy doesn't heal, whereas Ourorboros' blind is very helpful if it lands

First of thanks for the really detailed, and insightful, adder to my basic attempt. This was definitely instructive!

One thing, or memory shortcut, I'd like to emphasize from the analysis earlier is that the final attack results of the Ouroboros and Girimehkala examples are darn close.

When you have elemental advantage, maxed soul weapon, and a near maxed grid, you should think of 40% elemental as being equivalent to 50% character. Without elemental advantage and the spread is greater than 1.2:1.0 (elemental:character) and with a 100% eidolon it'll come close to 1.0:1.0 ratio. You can use that as a shortcut when you're looking through the friend list to just pick the 'available best' one not the 'theoretical best' one.


Dejnov.

Uuuuuuh guys?

Base combo rate is 8% + 3%, right?
Tiara Set Bonus is 15% + 15%, right?
100 Double Union Grail buff is 25%, right?
Tiamat is about 5%, right?
So I should have... about 71% Combo, right...? So how come I have more like 90%+?

I had to watch like four AABs before to confirm that I actually CAN miss a Combo attack. It should be noted that my Water Grid is starting to be an antique by now. I'm still playing the catch-up game from quitting for four months, focusing on modernizing one element at a time for each Tower. All I have 30 slvl of Triple in one Sloth Glaive - no Phantom Glaive or anything. According to DMM wiki, that's 1.5% more combo. I'm not running Shingen nor Aphrodite either.

Something is amiss, and I'd very much like to know what exactly it is.