Thread: The value of stacking Def DWN (with damage calculator)

if i understand correctly, negative value of "ATK up" = atk debuff value, while "DMG modifier" = atk buff on enemy?

Originally Posted by felix

if i understand correctly, negative value of "ATK up" = atk debuff value, while "DMG modifier" = atk buff on enemy?

DMG modifier is the positive expression of 'damage reduction'. Likewise, ATK up is the positive expression of ATK down. If you want negatives, add a negative sign. I wanted the stats to all be expressed in the same direction for consistency.

Hm, it appears that dmg cut, like 40% from Joan's "Voice of god" is less potent if you have atk debuffs stacked on enemy... Speaking of Joan, how does her Def bonuses apply to this formula? Is that a direct -23% to DMG modifier? +23 to DEF up? (Im trying to figure out who is more potent at keeping your party alive at high dmg bosses, like blue raids? Andromeda with a flat 1600 heal or Joan with all def bonuses, dmg cut and regen...)

Originally Posted by felix

Hm, it appears that dmg cut, like 40% from Joan's "Voice of god" is less potent if you have atk debuffs stacked on enemy

Attack down debuffs and damage reduction interact multiplicately--that is, they're equally effective separate or together. So there should be no loss in potency.

Apply defense up buff bonuses to the Defender DEF up box. Assist defensive passives are additive with DEF up buffs (for that character only). Passive soul bonuses to DEF are multiplicative and I haven't factored that into the calculation. Doesn't seem useful overall since most of the time you care about your weakest link, not a single character stacked with damage reduction bonuses.

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Also, make sure you're using the latest version of the spreadsheet. I'm continuously revising it, and early on there was an error in the damage reduction calculation that could have resulted in your observation about Voice of God.

Just so we're clear on how these debuffs apply: you can have one def down debuff from kamihime and one def down debuff from eidolon sources, right? And they will overlap? But you can't have multiple eidolon def downs, or multiple kami defense downs?

Originally Posted by VortexMagus

Just so we're clear on how these debuffs apply: you can have one def down debuff from kamihime and one def down debuff from eidolon sources, right? And they will overlap? But you can't have multiple eidolon def downs, or multiple kami defense downs?

You can have one eidolon debuff on top of everything else, and eidolon buffs cant stack with each other, but when it comes to kamihime, its not so easy. There are 3 "frames", or "windows" for debuffs, A-frame (usually skill that affect only one stat, like atk down) B-frame (usually skill that affect multiple stats, like atk and def down) and C-frame (rare frame, that is an "exception" and should be memorized, who has this kind of debuffs) A-frame can be stacked with B-frame, and C-frame, but not with another A-frame. B-frame can be stacked with A and C, but not B. So potentially you can have A, B, C and Eidolon debuffs stacked together, but in practice theres a cap on debuffs (50%) so theres no reason to go overboard.

Originally Posted by felix

You can have one eidolon debuff on top of everything else, and eidolon buffs cant stack with each other, but when it comes to kamihime, its not so easy. There are 3 "frames", or "windows" for debuffs, A-frame (usually skill that affect only one stat, like atk down) B-frame (usually skill that affect multiple stats, like atk and def down) and C-frame (rare frame, that is an "exception" and should be memorized, who has this kind of debuffs) A-frame can be stacked with B-frame, and C-frame, but not with another A-frame. B-frame can be stacked with A and C, but not B. So potentially you can have A, B, C and Eidolon debuffs stacked together, but in practice theres a cap on debuffs (50%) so theres no reason to go overboard.

'Frame' is just a Google Translate-ism. There's really no reason to propagate it as if it was an exact technical term. But yes, this explanation is accurate.

So Gawain's ambush and Satan's single target defense down skill are both A-Frame skills and can be stacked on top of cybele's skill, which is attack/def down and B-frame, correct? And Mordred's attack/def down is also B-frame, yes?

Originally Posted by VortexMagus

So Gawain's ambush and Satan's single target defense down skill are both A-Frame skills and can be stacked on top of cybele's skill, which is attack/def down and B-frame, correct? And Mordred's attack/def down is also B-frame, yes?

There's a link in the spreadsheet with a link to the Japanese table of defense-down debuffs categorized by type (A, B, C, eidolon/burst effect). Even if you can't read the text, you can click on each link and see the picture of the character the skill belongs to.

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

'Frame' is just a Google Translate-ism. There's really no reason to propagate it as if it was an exact technical term. But yes, this explanation is accurate.

I don't know how this particular translation went down, but frame is probably shortened something equivalent to "framework". Not windows...

It's probably more accurate/appropriate in English to call them A-Class, B-Class, etc., short for "Classification."