Thread: [Event 12] Apocalypse & Phoenix Rematch

Apocalypse, Phoenix, and Garuda are valuable because with only 3 eidolons you can cover all 6 elements with a versatile passive that will remain useful at endgame. That's why they're prioritized. You might have a water team now, but at some point you could end up pulling 3 SSRs from another element. When that happens, you want an eidolon to use with them.

And as I keep repeating, Blind is a really good debuff. Most people will want Apocalypse in their main team as a secondary eidolon, and if she isn't maxed you'll suffer a stat penalty for the privilege of using that debuff.

Ok, so tl;dr Phoenix and Apoc aren't easily replaceable but the weapon are.

I should be able to MLB them both with some hard grind, cause i'm guessing this is my last chance ever to get them, right ?

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

No, character attack is better in some circumstances. See my calculator.


It wasn't your damage formula calcuation that was wrong. It was your interpretation of it. You claimed a 40% damage loss, but didn't do the extra calculation necessary to show that (a percent difference calculation). As a result, you arrived at a misleading conclusion.

Maybe I'm just math illiterate and going full retard but can you elaborate more?

To my understanding, the end results are a multiplier. For example, my previous example, a 2.4x multiplier and a 2.8x multiplier with the difference being .4, that being the 40%.

In maths, we call percentage difference or relative difference the ratio between the difference of the reference value and observed value, divided by the reference value.

Which give you :

relative difference = (x - xref) / xref

In this case (2.8 - 2.4)/2.8 = 0.4/2.8 = 0.14

Relative difference is an unitless indicator that takes into account the size of the value. For example if we considered now that the buff value weren't a 2.4 and 2.8 multiplier but a 222.4 and 222.8 multiplier, would you still call that a 40 % loss ?
Even if your maths would still give you the same result you clearly see that in this case the loss is negligible (0.18 % loss to be precise).

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Maybe I'm just math illiterate and going full retard but can you elaborate more?

To my understanding, the end results are a multiplier. For example, my previous example, a 2.4x multiplier and a 2.8x multiplier with the difference being .4, that being the 40%.

Lol, he was just talking about the difference in terminology. Basically, you said there was a '40%' difference in damage, which sounds huge. There was a 40% difference in BASE damage, or as sanahtlig calculated, or a 14% difference in ACTUAL damage.

Long story short, the difference in the percentage vs the difference in damage. WHen most people hear 'a 40% difference' they'd imagine something like 'so instead of doing 1000 damage, I'd only be doing 600?! OMGWTFBBQ??!' Rather than the smaller hit.

Just as important is that eidolon buffs come in pairs. You can't accurately consider them in isolation because they synergize. That's why combining a character attack and elemental attack buff results in minimal damage loss (~5%), but combining two character attack buffs results in a substantial damage loss (>15%, and >20% at high assault skill).

Originally Posted by Fikari

In maths, we call percentage difference or relative difference the ratio between the difference of the reference value and observed value, divided by the reference value.

Which give you :

relative difference = (x - xref) / xref

In this case (2.8 - 2.4)/2.8 = 0.4/2.8 = 0.14

Relative difference is an unitless indicator that takes into account the size of the value. For example if we considered now that the buff value weren't a 2.4 and 2.8 multiplier but a 222.4 and 222.8 multiplier, would you still call that a 40 % loss ?
Even if your maths would still give you the same result you clearly see that in this case the loss is negligible (0.18 % loss to be precise).

Oh, I see where you guys are getting at now, the value of the .4 difference from the highest value to calculate the difference in percentage in comparison to the lowest. Seems to be my poor choice of wording. The multiplier difference is still .4 but the percentage of that .4 is 18%.

But should we not be comparing the 2 values to the value of the specific attack (regular attack being your basic x1 multiplier), so 1, 2.8 and 2.4.

In this case (2.8 - 2.4)/1 = .4/1 = .4?

The 222.4 and 222.8 example turned into percentages is 22240% and 22280%, which is still a 40% difference if comparing to a regular attack.

ooh scored a new Kamihime after using a premium ticket for lols

Originally Posted by Aidoru

The 222.4 and 222.8 example turned into percentages is 22240% and 22280%, which is still a 40% difference if comparing to a regular 100% attack.

Besides the fact that it's misleading when expressed that way, that 40% multiplier isn't comparable to other modifiers. For example, going double Apocalypse sacrifices a 20% HP boost you could've gotten from Crom. And what do you get in return? About a 7% damage boost. That's why I didn't find your example all that useful to answering the question at the center of the discussion: using what we know about the damage formulas to recommend what eidolons (new) players should be investing in and using.

The only thing HP% is necessary for at this point is Ragnarok.

Regardless, that small boost value you guys are getting is just the difference between comparing the difference between the 2 enhanced values but not in comparison to the base value of a regular attack.