Thread: Help on improving team for advance content

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Use Amaterasu. Her damage is irrelevant, her skills are far more important and open up more soul options for you like Joan with black propaganda or Morded with trial. Using Balor with Morded is meaningless so she can easily be replaced. Although slightly conflicted as the next event is water.

For eidolons you have, you can use Dullahan instead of Echidna. If you want a bit more damage, sure, keep her, but this isn't about doing damage cause then I'd tell you to replace your ssr defender weapons with sr lv20 assault weapons. Or you can just use a friend with Dullahan with your Echidna and see if that's enough to last, if not double Dullahan is one of your best bets.

Being a 42k+ atk dark team, you have more than enough stats to clear ragnarok difficulty stages regardless of element. Dropping some damage for better survivalbility is a better option, until you get more kamihimes.

Adding Amaterasu and using Dullahan gimps my damage by 26% from my current setup according to Sanahtlig's calculator. Granted this is without accounting for extra buffs during battle from Amaterasu but from pure numbers it seems using a non-element with my current 96% assault and 22% hp skill weapon grid severely lowers your damage.

Originally Posted by dreadpin

My opinion if u insist on going dark team,
1st scrap off ur Echidna....1.7k stats is really low.... u got other 2k+ to replace it, also Apo is 40% dark that should be ur main....otherwise Dullahan for HP

2nd get Amaterasu into ur team, she has 3 useful skills aoe blind, def up + reg and B frame def + atk down (Apo/Echidna are fire+dark... so Amaterasu damage is not as bad)

Soul, u can stick with Andro for heals/rez but personally i prefer burst down style with Arthur/Sieg (for MVP)

Arthur able to combo with Dullahan weapon(burst effect) u get an extra atk down for survivability while Sieg can easily negate Rage bar...i'm able to stun the boss from full rage in 1 or 2 rounds without any burst

If I use Apo and Amaterasu while swapping out Echida I loss 16% of my damage according to Sanathlig this includes the 400 extra stat that I get from swapping in a higher stat eidolon. If I use Dullahan with Amaterasu instead that makes it 26% less damage, I think you guys are underestimating the effect of the weapon grid's synergy with the eidolon's element attack up. Just swapping out Echida with Apo with better stats eidolon(~+400) loses me 3% in damages (this includes the offset from the stat bonuses).

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

This can easily be settled by comparing various combinations of weapons and eidolons using my Toolbox and seeing which combination maximizes HP and ATK. I'm not doing this because it's not my team or element and the answer doesn't interest me, but those with a vested interest (i.e., the OP) should do so. But in general, Defender SSRs have such a large increase in base stats that it nearly offsets the loss in damage from assault.

My suggestion to keep Echidna is based on an analysis of Fafnir's stat scaling using stats listed in the JP wiki (these might be different from Fafnir's stats in the Nutaku version). This may or may not be applicable to the current situation, which is why I've made a calculator available for players to determine what's best in their individual situations. When it comes to optimizing one's team, there's no substitute for running the numbers oneself because every team configuration is different.

Yeah thanks, the basic damage toolbox seems to give me some hard number to compare to. I'll try to use the more advance one to min-max what kamihime would be most optimal to bring in my team. But currently it tells me damage wise my eidolon set up is optimal.

Also the reason why I don't use fire is because my grid is shit for that around 30% assault skill and 20% hp skill. I just recently got summer sol and amaterasu so I didn't start building a grid till a month ago.

Sounds like you're missing the point though. You already have more than enough attack power to handle ragnaroks, even with 1 less dark hime but you keep emphasizing on your damage. Your damage is not the problem. The problem is you are having trouble consistently dealing with them, or so you say, with your current set up, most likely because lack of utilities.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Sounds like you're missing the point though. You already have more than enough attack power to handle ragnaroks, even with 1 less dark hime but you keep emphasizing on your damage. Your damage is not the problem. The problem is you are having trouble consistently dealing with them, or so you say, with your current set up.

The point I was trying to make is that if I do 26% less damage than I would have to survive for 26% longer period of time. I was expressing skepticism over the fact that changing in Amaterasu for one of my dark kamihime would have to improve my surviviability by over 26% or that the 16% hp boost for using Dullahan instead of Echidna would allow me to fight for far greater than the 16% longer period of time needed due to damage lost.

Since there wasn't a calculator for surivivability, I used the damage calculator for a benchmark for how much longer I would need to survive for. Meaning these improvements would force me to sustain anywhere from 16-25% longer fights, at the same time I already have problems surviving fights at my normal lengths. So since there were no hard numbers for this, unlike Sanahtlig's calculations, I am unsure if these solutions are viable.

You doing 26% less damage in place of using Amaterasu and Joan with Black Propaganda would most likely increase your survival 2 or 3 times as much as it is now.

i'm not sure how u evaluate over skills/hp/atk.....maybe i'm a noob myself but my setup is as below and i would really like Amaterasu in my team, her atk/def down is better than sniper shot...with that i can free sniper shot from my Soul and get a better skills(example Dullahan required maiden's prayer to remove the death debuff otherwise u need to get a specific Hime just for that which dropped the ur damage more severely, i'm using Belobog in my dark team for that....so u can imagine...a light hime without weapon skills nor eido effect...)



i tried to swap SSR HP to SR ATK and guess what, the damage is nearly the same from 13k-17k per hit so why not having more hp with additional burst effect? by the way, they are all skills 20

I have Echidna 1 star but she is not even fit into my list, i tried it last time and she disappointed me...
Dullahan is backup when i needed more hp > atk

also if u so emphasize on atk...instead of skills, try remove ur Beelzebub since she is one of the lowest atk...(calculator doesn't include skills right? i nvr use it b4...all based on my experience...)
Attachment 6118
(Beelzebub atk is 5500 not even fit into my first page and i have her in my team because of 3 useful skills, u can replace her with Aligo 7.1k atk lol...)
and again my opinion is skill > atk > hp

Originally Posted by Aidoru

You doing 26% less damage in place of using Amaterasu and Joan with Black Propaganda would most likely increase your survival 2 or 3 times as much as it is now.

Originally Posted by dreadpin

i'm not sure how u evaluate over skills/hp/atk.....maybe i'm a noob myself but my setup is as below and i would really like Amaterasu in my team, her atk/def down is better than sniper shot...with that i can free sniper shot from my Soul and get a better skills(example Dullahan required maiden's prayer to remove the death debuff otherwise u need to get a specific Hime just for that which dropped the ur damage more severely, i'm using Belobog in my dark team for that....so u can imagine...a light hime without weapon skills nor eido effect...)



i tried to swap SSR HP to SR ATK and guess what, the damage is nearly the same from 13k-17k per hit so why not having more hp with additional burst effect? by the way, they are all skills 20

I have Echidna 1 star but she is not even fit into my list, i tried it last time and she disappointed me...
Dullahan is backup when i needed more hp > atk

I think I should be more specific with my problem. The last time my dark kamihime got wrekted straight into an elixir was during the Ragnarok Ixion and Typhon fight. I tried a combination of Joan with black propaganda for Ixion, but I still had to eat eat her burst without Joan's defense at least once or twice before the cooldown for the next one. Burst lock from Ixion forced me to fight alot longer than I was used to which killed my kamihime (didn't have amaterasu at the time so didn't try it with her). After 3 tries I switched to Andromeda with black propaganda later with a bit better success rate (50% without an elixir).

For the Typhon fight well all I can say is why does she not die, her hp was ridiculous to me for an advent fight. I didn't use Amaterasu because I didn't think any of her debuffs would stick nor did I use Joan because I thought Andromeda's 1600 hp heal was better than Joan's regen, nor do I understand how large the defense difference between Joan's defense skill vs. Andromeda's is. So if possible could someone explain their difference on surivivability to me?

The key factor I saw in these fights was sustainability. So although I can understand your argument for a general better survivability use Amaterasu and Joan, in these cases I do not think using either of them would have improved my odds.
The reason why I'm writing this now instead of back then was because I heard that some Ragnarok fights will only get harder with Ixion and Typhon being medium difficulty at best. So I am trying to understand the consensus of how being mono-element could work given that my weapon skill are getting close to being maxed out yet fighting these off-element medium difficulty Ragnarok become 50-50 coin flips.

Originally Posted by darkace51

For the Typhon fight well all I can say is why does she not die, her hp was ridiculous to me for an advent fight. I didn't use Amaterasu because I didn't think any of her debuffs would stick nor did I use Joan because I thought Andromeda's 1600 hp heal was better than Joan's regen, nor do I understand how large the defense difference between Joan's defense skill vs. Andromeda's is. So if possible could someone explain their difference on surivivability to me?

wait...u using Joan/Andromeda with Black propaganda? no B frame debuff? as i recall, Typhon fight basically need to stay alive and save up burst, after that put all debuffs up when she's in rage and burst her into stun...during her stun period is ur dps window since she's unable to dispel those debuffs for few rounds(i got dark amon to reduce rage bar and prolong the stun period)

Originally Posted by Slashley

While Beelz herself has low attack, her team buffs are insane. Unless you're packing a full on-element SSR team (and sometimes even then) or are lacking in -Def debuffs, Beelz can easily fit into any team. Even more so in a Dark teams where her attacks aren't that far off from your main cast.

I just trying to point out Amaterasu is good...because of skill not the stats and using Beelz as example.....if a Hime with 3 awesome skills then u probably need to prioritize her unless there is a Hime with good skills + same element

as for assault skill, if it's hard to see with the naked eye which mean it just a slight difference that does not matter

if u had Amaterasu in the fight, u can put def up in every overdrive... Typhon has 3 turn to overdrive with Black Propaganda it's 4 turn, Amaterasu and Andromeda both Def up are 6 turns CD, regen and heals + the blind should be able to sustain very well....

Originally Posted by dreadpin

also if u so emphasize on atk...instead of skills, try remove ur Beelzebub since she is one of the lowest atk...--

While Beelz herself has low attack, her team buffs are insane. Unless you're packing a full on-element SSR team (and sometimes even then) or are lacking in -Def debuffs, Beelz can easily fit into any team. Even more so in a Dark teams where her attacks aren't that far off from your main cast.

And are you really wondering why your damage is about the same whether you have 180 or 200 skill levels in Assault? The difference between ~117% Assault and ~130% Assault exists, but it's hard to see with the naked unless you're taking notes, due to damage range.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by darkace51

-- nor do I understand how large the defense difference between Joan's defense skill vs. Andromeda's is. So if possible could someone explain their difference on surivivability to me?--

Andromeda is like 20% less damage for 3 turns, Joan is -40% for one turn. In other words, against something that does a lot of burst damage like Typhon, Joan is far superior - at least, if you have some source of heals to get you back up. Also against Typhon, saving your -atk debuffs for when she does her burst is what saves you.

And keep in mind that Typhon Ragnarok was literally months in advance on Nutaku.