Thread: DMM Kamihime Project: SSR Awakening Predictions

Remember this, among the buffs given out in the summer, Metatron was one of those who got some. Michael and Raphael didn't. Granted, Metatron's buffs weren't huge, but clearly she was considered to be underpowered while the other two weren't.

Raphael's A-frame atk debuff being 15% is fair given that it's paired with a % rage gauge reduction effect (Eros has 20% but it's stand alone) and doesn't have a noteworthy low rate of success (Kama's package of assorted debuffs). And since that's % reduction, it's an effect whose value scales up with tougher fights.
Overdrive orb removal at a solid hit rate is always handy utility.

Michael's... in a solid place, but I can't really say more than solid. +20 burst is nice, but its impact can vary wildly on the situation. Shingen builds would love it. Outside of Shingen, then it's a question of how much difference does that +20 burst actually make. Sometimes you want to burst on specific turns, and you may build up your burst meter in time without that skill anyway. Other times it's a lifesaver (worked out fantastically against Medusa, for example).
+light atk/+dark resist is basically mechanically alright against non-dark and very solid against dark. Because of how element resist buffs work, this is a skill fitting to be on an SSR.
Michael's basically in that place where I'd go, 'yea, she's SSR-level, but she's... just not a standout SSR'.
Having both Raphael and Michael, I'd easily kick out Michael first, unless I draw Eros, then I have to think about it.

Metatron's a Yet Another Attacker. The list of awakenings so far lean heavily in that direction.

Originally Posted by Inb4whales

->Open Spoiler<-

Instead of resorting to insulting other people, why don't you make your argument to prove your point?

Sure Meta can have self DEF down debuff removed like Tyr and Acala upon AW but she is far from weak compared to plenty of other Lights who are most definitely in need of a buff.
Tyr needed the buff because her enemy DEF down is 10% garbage that can even be outclassed by mere SRs and her entire kit revolves around the boss being stunned.
Acala is in the same boat where her entire kit revolves around doing damage only during rage and reducing rage which is very situational as well.

Now look at Meta compared to Raph and Mic.
Raph - Needs to be a boss in rage to fully utilise her entire kit.
Charm has low proc rate (even lower than Thor's) and its not even as good as Thor's paralyze which upon landing guarantees a stun.
ATK down is the typical A frame and it doesn't even go up to the max limit of 20% that most SSRs usually have.
Her entire kit only hits single target making it very troublesome to use her properly in fights like Access quests, GO, Tower, etc.

->Open Spoiler<-

Mic - Overall very balanced kit.
1st can hit multiple targets but there are plenty of KHs who can do the same and do it better and even add on powerful debuffs like Cthulu so there is room for improvement.
20 burst fill is good but that is it. Compare that to Asherah who does damage to ALL enemies and give +20 burst up to ALL your allies, meaning her kit already combines two of Mic's ability into one. Heck you don't even need to compare Mic with a different element. Compared that to meta who provides 10 to everyone else AND also do alot of damage I'd take Meta's self full burst over 20 burst anytime of the day.
While her light ATK up is a very unique buff but its only a 15% buff so there is room for improvement. Dark RST up is situational since many of Dark and Light mains tend to use these elements outside of their elemental advantage meaning there are situations where half of this ability will be pretty much completely useless.

Whether it be Metatron, Raphael or Micheal getting the next awakening for light himes, I couldn't care about the order, but I feel like you're really look down on Raphael too much. Almost everything you've mentioned about Raphael is just nitpicking when many of them aren't even faults in the first place.

You can complain about Raphael being boss focused but I can complain that Micheal is awful because she's inferior for bossing. We don't need every single hime to be all-purpose. Being a boss focused hime is not an issue and is no way a fault for using Raphael, especially when it's only half of a single skill that is for bosses but in reality all her skills can be used on any mob. One skill simply loses half its effect if the enemy doesn't have a rage meter and in rage mode. Is Sol less useful if you don't need her cleanse or dispel? No. Why would Raphael be?

Dizzy is it own thing and paralyze is its own thing. There's no reason to compare Raphael to Thor when both play completely different, it'd be like saying SR dark Balor is better than Raphael her because she has a paralysis. I mean comparing Raphael to something like Satan or something sure, like Satan has an overdrive reduction, a -15% debuff and managed to an awakening, so Raphael could too but same applies to Metaton with comparison to Uriel who plays in a similar fashion, both got buff'd and she also has an awakening.

Raphael's atk down could use a boost but it in no way is a big issue and as mentioned above, dual effect. Regardless, there are other SSR's with -15% debuffs, don't make it sound as if all SSRs with a debuff have a -20% one aside from her, and with DMM at a -50% cap, it's easily achieved as many light main player most likely have Sol.

Saying she is troublesome because she is a single target hime is basically no different that the first point about saying she's boss focused.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Whether it be Metatron, Raphael or Micheal getting the next awakening for light himes, I couldn't care about the order, but I feel like you're really look down on Raphael too much. Almost everything you've mentioned about Raphael is just nitpicking when many of them aren't even faults in the first place.

You can complain about Raphael being boss focused but I can complain that Micheal is awful because she's inferior for bossing. We don't need every single hime to be all-purpose. Being a boss focused hime is not an issue and is no way a fault for using Raphael, especially when it's only half of a single skill that is for bosses but in reality all her skills can be used on any mob. One skill simply loses half its effect if the enemy doesn't have a rage meter and in rage mode. Is Sol less useful if you don't need her cleanse or dispel? No. Why would Raphael be?

Michael's entire kit can be unloaded onto a boss and still be fully useful. In case of Raph, you either need to delay some skills or use it only in certain circumstances to make the most out of her. And don't even compare Sol with Raph. Sol is clearly an overpowered KH who's utility way exceeds many even when her entire kit is not in use.

My reason for complaining about Raph is simple. She failed as a "defense" KH. Heck even Sol is a better defense KH than her.
ATK down 15% vs 20%, there is no questions asked. Sol wins.
% Rage meter depletion is a very niche use even on bosses/raid bosses since most people save up full burst for the boss rage before unloading it and forcing it into stun. Compare that to dispel which is invaluable and cleanse which is live saving at times.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Dizzy is it own thing and paralyze is its own thing. There's no reason to compare Raphael to Thor when both play completely different, it'd be like saying SR dark Balor is better than Raphael her because she has a paralysis. I mean comparing Raphael to something like Satan or something sure, like Satan has an overdrive reduction, a -15% debuff and managed to an awakening, so Raphael could too but same applies to Metaton with comparison to Uriel who plays in a similar fashion, both got buff'd and she also has an awakening.

You're clearly scrapping the bottom of the barrel here with your argument when you bring in Balor. Balor's paralyse have a ridiculously low proc rate that it might as well not even be there in the first place. Thor's paralyse on the other hand is a different story.

And the reason I'm comparing Raph and Thor is because:
1. They are both SSR.
2. Both abilities deals damage and apply a charm/paralyse respectively.
3. The goal of both debuffs is exactly the same; stun the enemy.

But clearly paralyse is without a doubt the superior debuff compared to charm due to its surefire lockdown. The ONLY complaint one could have is how short paralyse lasts with teams that require constant rebuffing but that clearly isn't the case with Light at the moment until New Year's Nike is available.
You, stating about charm and paralyse being its own thing is like comparing that a bicycle and a car are different. Of course they are, but nobody cares about a bicycle if the goal is to get somewhere faster.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Raphael's atk down could use a boost but it in no way is a big issue and as mentioned above, dual effect. Regardless, there are other SSR's with -15% debuffs, don't make it sound as if all SSRs with a debuff have a -20% one aside from her, and with DMM at a -50% cap, it's easily achieved as many light main player most likely have Sol.

It IS a big deal when you don't want your Soul to be a debuff bot or when your front line spots are limited with cores like Sol, Lightsuki, SSRtemis. If a player have access to all the SSRs in the game, no one in their right mind would put Raph in that last spot. Same goes to Michael as well but even IF a defensive kami is needed, people would easily opt to go Eros instead because while being a "balanced" KH, the defensive capabilities that she brings to the game far outweighs anything Raph can ever do as the quote-unquote "defense" KH.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Saying she is troublesome because she is a single target hime is basically no different that the first point about saying she's boss focused.

I'm saying she is far inferior to a good majority of the other Kamis because despite having the same rarity and pull rate as every other SSR KH (well we don't know the numbers for sure because the exact pull rates are never shown but I'm assuming it is) even among the "weak" light team, her abilities are far weaker than what other characters in the same rarity and element can bring.
My argument here is that Raph needs a buff. More that any of you originally though. And most of the time, they only way the Devs would do a HUGE buff is through AW.

Shiva needs a buff. She's an attacker who doesn't do much damage. Her main use at this point is killing trash. She needs more damage/utility against bosses. Adding a Burst gauge up effect to her ATK buff would be nice. That'd make her useful in Burst builds at least.

Originally Posted by Inb4whales

Michael's entire kit can be unloaded onto a boss and still be fully useful. In case of Raph, you either need to delay some skills or use it only in certain circumstances to make the most out of her. And don't even compare Sol with Raph. Sol is clearly an overpowered KH who's utility way exceeds many even when her entire kit is not in use.

My reason for complaining about Raph is simple. She failed as a "defense" KH. Heck even Sol is a better defense KH than her.
ATK down 15% vs 20%, there is no questions asked. Sol wins.
% Rage meter depletion is a very niche use even on bosses/raid bosses since most people save up full burst for the boss rage before unloading it and forcing it into stun. Compare that to dispel which is invaluable and cleanse which is live saving at times.

You're critizing her because of her hime type? Really? Then just think of her as a tricky? Because it really doesn't matter what 'type' the game categorizes her as it has no functionalities other than being vanity words.

Sol is used here as an example of whether or not she'd be less useful if a fraction of her skills take no effect. An example and nothing more. If you wanted, go and replace her with any of the many other SSRs with skills that don't get used outside of situational scenarios, because there are plenty and this is the complaint you're making here with Raphael with a half of a single one of her skills and even then, all your examples of her rage reduction is just just nitpicking at what her skill couldn't be used on against and ignoring all the what it could be. There's plenty of bosses that don't involve raids and even then, raids can be solo-d.

You're clearly scrapping the bottom of the barrel here with your argument when you bring in Balor. Balor's paralyse have a ridiculously low proc rate that it might as well not even be there in the first place. Thor's paralyse on the other hand is a different story.

And the reason I'm comparing Raph and Thor is because:
1. They are both SSR.
2. Both abilities deals damage and apply a charm/paralyse respectively.
3. The goal of both debuffs is exactly the same; stun the enemy.

But clearly paralyse is without a doubt the superior debuff compared to charm due to its surefire lockdown. The ONLY complaint one could have is how short paralyse lasts with teams that require constant rebuffing but that clearly isn't the case with Light at the moment until New Year's Nike is available.
You, stating about charm and paralyse being its own thing is like comparing that a bicycle and a car are different. Of course they are, but nobody cares about a bicycle if the goal is to get somewhere faster.

Thor is not a good comparison to Raphael as I already mentioned and plays nothing like Raphael. What you're doing here is trying to force a comparison using extremely minor details. This is why I used a Balor as a poor example in the same sense you're using. Using your own analogy, all you're doing is comparing the speed of two vehicles while ignoring every other utilities one has over the other.

It IS a big deal when you don't want your Soul to be a debuff bot or when your front line spots are limited with cores like Sol, Lightsuki, SSRtemis. If a player have access to all the SSRs in the game, no one in their right mind would put Raph in that last spot. Same goes to Michael as well but even IF a defensive kami is needed, people would easily opt to go Eros instead because while being a "balanced" KH, the defensive capabilities that she brings to the game far outweighs anything Raph can ever do as the quote-unquote "defense" KH.

If a player had all himes but Eros, then Raphael would obviously be next in line. That's the point we're making here. This was never a comparison between Eros, Raphael and Micheal, it's Raphael, Micheal and Metatron. And of those 3, it would be obvious they would use Raphael with the team you've listed if Eros was not an option.

I'm saying she is far inferior to a good majority of the other Kamis because despite having the same rarity and pull rate as every other SSR KH (well we don't know the numbers for sure because the exact pull rates are never shown but I'm assuming it is) even among the "weak" light team, her abilities are far weaker than what other characters in the same rarity and element can bring.
My argument here is that Raph needs a buff. More that any of you originally though. And most of the time, they only way the Devs would do a HUGE buff is through AW.

My post was nothing about her needing a buff or not. It'd be easy to complain that every original/old SSR needs a buff, heck I even agreed I wouldn't mind her atk down getting buffed (but also said I don't find it a major issue). My post was directed towards your excessive need to constantly target her as if she's inferior to the original 3 of the discussion, despite the fact that she offers much more than them.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

You're critizing her because of her hime type? Really? Then just think of her as a tricky? Because it really doesn't matter what 'type' the game categorizes her as it has no functionalities other than being vanity words.

Then what is the point of even categorising them (apart form having gacha sales) in the first place?
The Devs were clearly trying to look smart by trying to make a KH that relies on debuffing enemy's offensive capabilities and spin her as a Defense KH but it clearly isn't working. Which brings back to my point that if I'm a Dev, I'd fix that with her AW.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Sol is used here as an example of whether or not she'd be less useful if a fraction of her skills take no effect. An example and nothing more. If you wanted, go and replace her with any of the many other SSRs with skills that don't get used outside of situational scenarios, because there are plenty and this is the complaint you're making here with Raphael with a half of a single one of her skills and even then, all your examples of her rage reduction is just just nitpicking at what her skill couldn't be used on against and ignoring all the what it could be. There's plenty of bosses that don't involve raids and even then, raids can be solo-d.

Let me put it into perspective for you to understand my point easier then.
Lets say under the assumption that we are fighting a boss that lacks self buff or enemy debuff.
Sol's 2/3 abilities are useful. Heal is never a bad thing. ATK down C frame at 20% means it's already providing the highest about of ATK down even for its very rare frame.

Now look at Raph.
1st ability- Have a low chance to land the charm. If it fails, it might as well be as useless as Sol's 2nd ability due to its low damage on this particular boss. Even if it did, there is a second set of chance that the boss won't even get stunned. I've had many experiences where despite having the charm icon on the boss the entire time, it was never stunned and the charm ran out instead.
2nd ability- This can be overwritten by a higher ATK debuff frame like Joan's or Eros. We're not taking those two into account? Fine. Sniper shot+Sol+Jormun/Yaga summon. 50% ATK debuff reached. This ability has just lost all of its usefulness when a boss isn't in rage.
3rd ability- This is the only ability that is useful on her with a consistent chance of removing an orb charge unless the boss have a high debuff resist.

Let's be honest here. I'd rather take Belobog over Raph who-
1- provides the exact same ATK debuff and can cap with Sniper+Sol+15%.
2- a defensive buff even when the cleanse is not needed.
3- a regen which most Light himes don't provide since they often give straight up heals instead.

This is the kind of "useless" that I'm talking about on Raph. If I have both Raph, Michael and Meta, I'd rather go with a lineup of Sol, Diana, Belobog and Michael/Meta instead.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Thor is not a good comparison to Raphael as I already mentioned and plays nothing like Raphael. What you're doing here is trying to force a comparison using extremely minor details. This is why I used a Balor as a poor example in the same sense you're using. Using your own analogy, all you're doing is comparing the speed of two vehicles while ignoring every other utilities one has over the other.

You are talking about quote-unquote "gameplay" in a game where you throw all your abilities onto the boss and smack it till it dies? A game where you can't even command your braindead KHs like "Hey the boss is going to rage and kill you with a burst next turn. Don't attack and defend this turn."
This isn't even a proper argument to begin with.
I mean sure, if we're going to talk about how Gaia or Titania have a different method of gameplay on when you use their abilities or time it to get the most out of Tit's burst, then fine. I'll give you that.

But good god, when has there ever been a time when people don't use Raph's charm ability or Thor's paralyse the moment they came back off cooldown? Sure you can say its better to save Thor's for a boss rage or when a debuff resist down is in place but let's be honest here. Both abilities don't need that much though put into it and THAT WAS MY POINT for comparing the two. They both do the exact same thing of dealing a small amount of damage and trying to stun a boss but the other KH does it better. That is my argument. Balor's doesn't even fall anywhere into this category because it has somewhere around a 5% chance of proc rate even WITH debuff resist down.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

If a player had all himes but Eros, then Raphael would obviously be next in line. That's the point we're making here. This was never a comparison between Eros, Raphael and Micheal, it's Raphael, Micheal and Metatron. And of those 3, it would be obvious they would use Raphael with the team you've listed if Eros was not an option.

Good, at least we both agree that Raph is in need of a buff. That had been my argument this entire time.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

My post was nothing about her needing a buff or not. It'd be easy to complain that every original/old SSR needs a buff, heck I even agreed I wouldn't mind her atk down getting buffed (but also said I don't find it a major issue). My post was directed towards your excessive need to constantly target her as if she's inferior to the original 3 of the discussion, despite the fact that she offers much more than them.

Because she is? Even Belobog as an SR is more useful for me than Raph.
If I force myself to think, the only reason I'd pick Raph over Belo would be that she has much more base stats for being an SSR and deals more burst damage.

Originally Posted by Inb4whales

Then what is the point of even categorising them (apart form having gacha sales) in the first place?
The Devs were clearly trying to look smart by trying to make a KH that relies on debuffing enemy's offensive capabilities and spin her as a Defense KH but it clearly isn't working. Which brings back to my point that if I'm a Dev, I'd fix that with her AW.

As I said, it's vanity at this point. Unless they have some kind of hidden system where you get bonuses for using certain hime type combinations, it's meaningless to use it as a factor for this discussion.

Let me put it into perspective for you to understand my point easier then.
Lets say under the assumption that we are fighting a boss that lacks self buff or enemy debuff.
Sol's 2/3 abilities are useful. Heal is never a bad thing. ATK down C frame at 20% means it's already providing the highest about of ATK down even for its very rare frame.

Now look at Raph.
1st ability- Have a low chance to land the charm. If it fails, it might as well be as useless as Sol's 2nd ability due to its low damage on this particular boss. Even if it did, there is a second set of chance that the boss won't even get stunned. I've had many experiences where despite having the charm icon on the boss the entire time, it was never stunned and the charm ran out instead.
2nd ability- This can be overwritten by a higher ATK debuff frame like Joan's or Eros. We're not taking those two into account? Fine. Sniper shot+Sol+Jormun/Yaga summon. 50% ATK debuff reached. This ability has just lost all of its usefulness when a boss isn't in rage.
3rd ability- This is the only ability that is useful on her with a consistent chance of removing an orb charge unless the boss have a high debuff resist.

Let's be honest here. I'd rather take Belobog over Raph who-
1- provides the exact same ATK debuff and can cap with Sniper+Sol+15%.
2- a defensive buff even when the cleanse is not needed.
3- a regen which most Light himes don't provide since they often give straight up heals instead.

This is the kind of "useless" that I'm talking about on Raph. If I have both Raph, Michael and Meta, I'd rather go with a lineup of Sol, Diana, Belobog and Michael/Meta instead.

You are talking about quote-unquote "gameplay" in a game where you throw all your abilities onto the boss and smack it till it dies? A game where you can't even command your braindead KHs like "Hey the boss is going to rage and kill you with a burst next turn. Don't attack and defend this turn."
This isn't even a proper argument to begin with.
I mean sure, if we're going to talk about how Gaia or Titania have a different method of gameplay on when you use their abilities or time it to get the most out of Tit's burst, then fine. I'll give you that.

But good god, when has there ever been a time when people don't use Raph's charm ability or Thor's paralyse the moment they came back off cooldown? Sure you can say its better to save Thor's for a boss rage or when a debuff resist down is in place but let's be honest here. Both abilities don't need that much though put into it and THAT WAS MY POINT for comparing the two. They both do the exact same thing of dealing a small amount of damage and trying to stun a boss but the other KH does it better. That is my argument. Balor's doesn't even fall anywhere into this category because it has somewhere around a 5% chance of proc rate even WITH debuff resist down.

Because she is? Even Belobog as an SR is more useful for me than Raph.
If I force myself to think, the only reason I'd pick Raph over Belo would be that she has much more base stats for being an SSR and deals more burst damage.

Again, Sol was just an example for a specific subject, but I guess it's my fault for using one of the best himes as an example instead of someone else since it's hard to overlook her skills.

As for Raph, I've had plenty cases where dizzy's effect worked many times and plenty where it hasn't, you're only looking at times it doesn't. The skill itself does nearly triple damage of a regular hit and depending on the fight, there can always be a reason to hold out on using the skill not for the effect but for pushing phases. For me, this skill is her weakest aspect.

For her second skill, using Jorm or Yata, only applies to some scenarios. Content like Advent Ragnarok or even something like to wanting solo a Raid Ragnarok, you most likely won't have either ready before an overdrive. Even in the scenario you don't need the atk down effect from her skill (cause say you're using Joan, her ex skill or even both Raph and Belebog or you've cycled through enough turns already for Jorm/Yata) then you can simply hold off on the skill if it isn't in rage and you'll always have the skill ready for when the bosses transitions into rage for maximizing its effect and this effect can easily equate to an extra 1~3 turns worth of regular attacks towards the rage meter depending on the boss. And if you're going to throw Jorm and Yata in this discussion, with Raphael, Sol, Sniper Shot and -50% being the cap, you have option of replacing them with different eidolons for even more utilities. Jorm might be difficult because she has good stats even without her effect unless it's a gacha eidolon but Yata is easily replaceable with her low stats. The only time this skill would ever completely lose its effect on a boss would be if you want to stay in raging mode as long as you can for mechanic reasons as well as another source of an a-frame atk down.

Her last skill is her best skill. Combining this with Black Propaganda and her 2nd skill, she becomes the best way for light teams to manage boss overdrives and rage phases and is the main reason to use her over the others because handling with overdrive charges and phases of bosses is the biggest mechanic to deal with right under debuffing it.

If you prefer Belebog, then by all means, you can use her instead, I agree she's a good hime, but like you said yourself, she's more useful to you but for me, Raph is by far more useful to me for the reasons explained above. Inferior is something she isn't.

As far as I'm aware, classification only actually matters for certain Guild Order missions. They basically ask you to win with at least X number of Y type kamihime, or with at least 1 of every type. So yea, types were basically just vanity for nearly 1.5 years.

Oh, yea, some tower quest missions also ask for similar things. But there's only been one tower quest type event so far and it's been a month since.

OK why do it feel like this going way off topic from a normal and simple prediction. From what I'm seeing, this turn from "I hope Raphael get awaken" to "this is why I hate Raphael and she need that awakening, ASAP" While true my words was a bit hash(my apologies), but your feelings towards Raphael is even more hash as if she hasn't done anything for a team or worth using.

Raphael is cute, so who cares ~~

Personal hope, awakening for metatron.