Thread: [Event 28] Crucible of Combat vs The Demon Envy (Union Event)

Oh, yeah, a couple of posts I've forgotten to reply to:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

+def buffs aren't so bad. They're functionally more like a weaker but longer duration/shorter cooldown damage cuts, but more importantly, stack multiplicatively with damage cuts and reflects.--

... do they? Because I honestly can't even tell the difference when they're up.
Since it depends strongly on how it is calculated. After or during -Atk. As in, does Sanahtlig's completely-fair-and-I'm-not-jealous-at-all -70% Atk, does he become immune if he got +60% Def or not?

With numbers:
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -0% Atk = 850 damage taken (-150, 15% reduction)
If it is after -Atk debuffs:
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -40% Atk = 600 damage before Def cut = 510 damage taken (-90, 9% reduction)
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -70% Atk = 300 damage before Def cut = 255 damage taken (-45 damage, 4.5% reduction)
If it actually stacks with -Atk:
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -40% Atk = 450 damage taken (-150, 15% reduction)

Now, I could probably just look this up from JP wiki, but I'm honestly a lazy little cunt who likes it when people just tell me. I just don't see Def
buffs being useful at all - even 30% is hard to get, it doesn't help all that much (even though every little bit helps) and it doesn't even have 100% uptime.

Originally Posted by Naes

when does it come out? the eido shoppo,--

The encyclopedia in Sanahtlig's toolbox gives you a quick peek on all the upcoming patch notes etc. It's July 2018ish.

I... don't think you know where defense goes?

So the formula for damage against you as given on the wiki is currently:
{Enemy_Attack * (1 + atk_buff - atk_debuff) * 'weak point correction' * (1 - damage_cut_total)} / {10 * (1 + defense_bonus) * (1 + def_buff - def_debuff + assist)}

'weak point correction' = element resistance/weakness. Specifically, it's the 1.45x if you're weak, 0.75x if you're resistant.
The way I worded things in the previous post was a bit off. Reflects actually stack with damage cuts additively, hence 'damage_cut_total. Cao Cao's page on the wiki specifically cites her reflect stacking with Raikou's damage cut for a total of 70% damage reduction. Element resistance buffs apparently also get added to damage_cut_total.
defense_bonus = what your soul's been picking up from mastering certain lines
I'm not sure what the 10 is doing there, unless the internal enemy attack values really are just that much bigger than what we players see in game play. For our purposes, we can ignore the 10.

So basically, when you're going from no defense buffs/debuffs to +30%, you're dividing damage by 1.3 instead of 1. That's functionally the same as multiplying damage by 77%. 30% is also really freaking big as party-wide defense buffs go. Andromeda's def buff for another example is 20%; that'd reduce damage to 1/1.2 = 83.3%.

An example to put it all together...

Let x = enemy attack/base damage
You land -50% atk debuff (or more, but let's say we're in the world where the 50% debuff cap is in place). Enemy has no atk buff.
Damage is now 0.5x
Your element is strong against the enemy; that's another 75% multiplier, bringing damage to 0.375x
Your main eidolon has 10% resist against the enemy's element (Jack Frost versus Fire for example). As far as I understand, this actually goes to damage_cut_total. Let's add a 30% damage cut to that (Snow Raphael for example); damage_cut_total comes out to 40%. 0.375x * 0.6 = 0.225x
I'll ignore how much +defense your soul has to simplify things; also it's not like your kamihime benefit from that.
Let's say you throw on a +20% A-frame def buff (from Andromeda) and a +12% B-frame def bufff (from... Gabriel). That adds up to 32% for defense buffs. But, Snow Raphael and Gabriel have +defense assists. I don't know how large those are. I'm assuming 5% each, as the +attack assists I've seen are listed as 5%. So for those two, their defense buff total comes out to 37%
0.225x / 1.32 = 0.17x
0.225x / 1.37 = 0.164x
So damage has been reduced to just a bit over 1/6th of what it originally was. For Snow Raphael and Gabriel, just under 1/6th. And in practice, your soul probably has built up some +defense from at least the Joan of Arc line by now.

...looking back on damage cut stacking, I think Cupid suddenly just jumped up a notch here. If you throw Cupid into the example above, you can add on her 30% fire resistance buff (ok, at this rate we're basically running something like Andromeda/Ryu-Oh/Snow Raphael/Gabriel/Cupid for demonstration purposes). Damage_cut_total would change from 40% to 70%.
0.375x * 0.3 = 0.1125x
Keep the same def buffs; 0.1125x / 1.32 = 0.085. That's in between 1/11th and 1/12th the original damage.
Not that you'd actually run such a party (unless that's what you have with nothing better), but the example gets the process across I hope.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

-- but the example gets the process across I hope.

Nope. That was a lot of thorough text, but it didn't get the point across. You put in kinds of resistances in there to over complicate things, and I just can't be arsed to think it through right now.

Does +Def buff stack directly with -Atk debuffs or not? Because as long as -50% Atk and +100% Def together don't mean 100% damage reduction, it severely makes Def buffs weaker.

Seperate entrys. First part is boss damage, including boss buffs/debuffs. Thats the base damage that the boss inflicts per hit.
This gets changed in the second entry through your buffs/debuffs.

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

To take the example above. 1000 damage hit, with -70%atk on boss, and +60def on yourself would be (correct me if i made a mistake)
(1000*(1-0.70)) / (1+0.60)
300 / 1.6 = 187.5
the 60% def buff should be around 37,5% reduction ~~ i am in the same boat, i am tired as hell, should go to sleep.

They stack.

The difference is, when you say stack, you're probably thinking 'additively'. When I say yes, I mean 'multiplicatively'.

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

They never would, since at best that's -75% damage reduction. You need twice as many % for buffs as you need for debuffs. 100% to halve damage on +Def, 50% to halve damage on -Atk.

That's just one of the reasons why buffs are so bad in Kamihime.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

They stack.

The difference is, when you say stack, you're probably thinking 'additively'. When I say yes, I mean 'multiplicatively'.

Thank you.

Well, attack buffs are pretty lousy because they're usually adding to assault and thus their relative impact shrinks the more developed you are.
Defense related buffs (be it defense buffs, damage cuts, reflects, or element tolerance buffs) tend to maintain their relative impact. They're held back by their uptime being defined in turns. But they do come in handy for mitigating giant spikes in damage.
It's just that it's easy to dismiss them and be fine with just atk down + element advantage because it's not too often that we actually see GIGANTIC instances of damage in the current state of the game.

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

Seperate entrys. First part is boss damage, including boss buffs/debuffs. Thats the base damage that the boss inflicts per hit.
This gets changed in the second entry through your buffs/debuffs.

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

To take the example above. 1000 damage hit, with -70%atk on boss, and +60def on yourself would be (correct me if i made a mistake)
(1000*(1-0.70)) / (1+0.60)
300 / 1.6 = 187.5
the 60% def buff should be around 37,5% reduction ~~ i am in the same boat, i am tired as hell, should go to sleep.

You are correct.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Since it depends strongly on how it is calculated. After or during -Atk. As in, does Sanahtlig's completely-fair-and-I'm-not-jealous-at-all -70% Atk, does he become immune if he got +60% Def or not?

The short answer is 'no'. You can see exactly how these parameters interact in the Temporary Effects Calculator of my Toolbox, 'Damage received' section. I prefer 'Hits til Death' as a readout of comparative effectiveness.

This is straight up dumb
It's so easy yet you're expanding too much on a simple comparison

A defense buff equals a Regen buff (You get little quantities of it on 3 turns)
A damage cut equals a Heal (You get it all right away when you need it)

It's obviously better to have a Healer than having a Regen enabler so is obviously better having a Damage Cut skill than having a Defense Buffer
Especially if you as almost everyone struggle with overdrives since you use your skill there where it prioritizes it instead of having it split in 3 turns, when building a team you don't look at all on Defense Buffers. The priorities are Debuffs > Healing > Damage > Damage Cut / Rage meter throttle.
That said we can all come to the conclusion that if a Kamihime has a Defense buff it's an okay addition to your team but you aren't out there looking for it as you are looking for -40/40 debuffs and a healer, oh and god forbids you're running more than one while having better options

For Healing is the same; maybe you're in the Raging bar and for some reason you couldn't stun the Boss, so the next turn you know you're getting an Overdrive Blast to the face and a heal might save your party before starting that turn
A Regen will give you around the same (normally less than a Heal, just like a defense buff gives you less than a damage cut in most scenarios) split into three turns.

Comparing defense buffs with debuffs, that I find pretty dumb, even more if you're doing it the way someone in the thread is, saying that Amaterasu's buff isn't useful because it doesn't add up to the same degree that a debuff would when Amaterasu has drumroll please a -20 Attack and -20 Defense debuff too which is the same that Sol provides you -20 Attack Debuff with an extra Defense debuff rather they are in a different Frame and that's one of the three things what makes Sol so especial (ofcourse, ofcourse I'm not comparing a B Frame which is pretty common and even has an EX skill around it with a C Frame like Sol of Cthulhu. I just want to help new people to see the degree of their debuffs); meh??? I don't know anymore lol. This became really cringy in a few hours you could've been better saying "Andromeda's Debuff" isn't as good and it would've atleast seemed like you put thought on your words rather than comparing a buff with a debuff on a Kamihime that has both