Thread: [Event 28] Crucible of Combat vs The Demon Envy (Union Event)

I... don't think you know where defense goes?

So the formula for damage against you as given on the wiki is currently:
{Enemy_Attack * (1 + atk_buff - atk_debuff) * 'weak point correction' * (1 - damage_cut_total)} / {10 * (1 + defense_bonus) * (1 + def_buff - def_debuff + assist)}

'weak point correction' = element resistance/weakness. Specifically, it's the 1.45x if you're weak, 0.75x if you're resistant.
The way I worded things in the previous post was a bit off. Reflects actually stack with damage cuts additively, hence 'damage_cut_total. Cao Cao's page on the wiki specifically cites her reflect stacking with Raikou's damage cut for a total of 70% damage reduction. Element resistance buffs apparently also get added to damage_cut_total.
defense_bonus = what your soul's been picking up from mastering certain lines
I'm not sure what the 10 is doing there, unless the internal enemy attack values really are just that much bigger than what we players see in game play. For our purposes, we can ignore the 10.

So basically, when you're going from no defense buffs/debuffs to +30%, you're dividing damage by 1.3 instead of 1. That's functionally the same as multiplying damage by 77%. 30% is also really freaking big as party-wide defense buffs go. Andromeda's def buff for another example is 20%; that'd reduce damage to 1/1.2 = 83.3%.

An example to put it all together...

Let x = enemy attack/base damage
You land -50% atk debuff (or more, but let's say we're in the world where the 50% debuff cap is in place). Enemy has no atk buff.
Damage is now 0.5x
Your element is strong against the enemy; that's another 75% multiplier, bringing damage to 0.375x
Your main eidolon has 10% resist against the enemy's element (Jack Frost versus Fire for example). As far as I understand, this actually goes to damage_cut_total. Let's add a 30% damage cut to that (Snow Raphael for example); damage_cut_total comes out to 40%. 0.375x * 0.6 = 0.225x
I'll ignore how much +defense your soul has to simplify things; also it's not like your kamihime benefit from that.
Let's say you throw on a +20% A-frame def buff (from Andromeda) and a +12% B-frame def bufff (from... Gabriel). That adds up to 32% for defense buffs. But, Snow Raphael and Gabriel have +defense assists. I don't know how large those are. I'm assuming 5% each, as the +attack assists I've seen are listed as 5%. So for those two, their defense buff total comes out to 37%
0.225x / 1.32 = 0.17x
0.225x / 1.37 = 0.164x
So damage has been reduced to just a bit over 1/6th of what it originally was. For Snow Raphael and Gabriel, just under 1/6th. And in practice, your soul probably has built up some +defense from at least the Joan of Arc line by now.

...looking back on damage cut stacking, I think Cupid suddenly just jumped up a notch here. If you throw Cupid into the example above, you can add on her 30% fire resistance buff (ok, at this rate we're basically running something like Andromeda/Ryu-Oh/Snow Raphael/Gabriel/Cupid for demonstration purposes). Damage_cut_total would change from 40% to 70%.
0.375x * 0.3 = 0.1125x
Keep the same def buffs; 0.1125x / 1.32 = 0.085. That's in between 1/11th and 1/12th the original damage.
Not that you'd actually run such a party (unless that's what you have with nothing better), but the example gets the process across I hope.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

-- but the example gets the process across I hope.

Nope. That was a lot of thorough text, but it didn't get the point across. You put in kinds of resistances in there to over complicate things, and I just can't be arsed to think it through right now.

Does +Def buff stack directly with -Atk debuffs or not? Because as long as -50% Atk and +100% Def together don't mean 100% damage reduction, it severely makes Def buffs weaker.

Seperate entrys. First part is boss damage, including boss buffs/debuffs. Thats the base damage that the boss inflicts per hit.
This gets changed in the second entry through your buffs/debuffs.

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

To take the example above. 1000 damage hit, with -70%atk on boss, and +60def on yourself would be (correct me if i made a mistake)
(1000*(1-0.70)) / (1+0.60)
300 / 1.6 = 187.5
the 60% def buff should be around 37,5% reduction ~~ i am in the same boat, i am tired as hell, should go to sleep.

They stack.

The difference is, when you say stack, you're probably thinking 'additively'. When I say yes, I mean 'multiplicatively'.

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

They never would, since at best that's -75% damage reduction. You need twice as many % for buffs as you need for debuffs. 100% to halve damage on +Def, 50% to halve damage on -Atk.

That's just one of the reasons why buffs are so bad in Kamihime.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

They stack.

The difference is, when you say stack, you're probably thinking 'additively'. When I say yes, I mean 'multiplicatively'.

Thank you.

Well, attack buffs are pretty lousy because they're usually adding to assault and thus their relative impact shrinks the more developed you are.
Defense related buffs (be it defense buffs, damage cuts, reflects, or element tolerance buffs) tend to maintain their relative impact. They're held back by their uptime being defined in turns. But they do come in handy for mitigating giant spikes in damage.
It's just that it's easy to dismiss them and be fine with just atk down + element advantage because it's not too often that we actually see GIGANTIC instances of damage in the current state of the game.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

-- Defense related buffs (be it -- damage cuts, reflects, or element tolerance buffs) tend to maintain their relative impact. --

These are very useful, yes. They're effectively the same thing though, so they stack properly. Which adds to their value.

I find it difficult to imagine +Def buff being useful, though. Basically you'd need to double the gains from them across the board, plus scatter the different buffs to A and B. Like Andromeda and Amaterasu stacking to 40%+60% thus halving damage taken.

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

Seperate entrys. First part is boss damage, including boss buffs/debuffs. Thats the base damage that the boss inflicts per hit.
This gets changed in the second entry through your buffs/debuffs.

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

To take the example above. 1000 damage hit, with -70%atk on boss, and +60def on yourself would be (correct me if i made a mistake)
(1000*(1-0.70)) / (1+0.60)
300 / 1.6 = 187.5
the 60% def buff should be around 37,5% reduction ~~ i am in the same boat, i am tired as hell, should go to sleep.

You are correct.