Thread: Consolidated Light Team Topic

Seeing ppl look down on Sol it kinda trigger me, try to bring a team with both Lugh and Tish in rag without any andro support user and see how long you can survive. Running Andro ?, you sacrifide Shingen dmg and slow down your whole just to kick Sol out ?, yes Sol is also slow, but she is a hime, not a soul, soul had to lead burst, that’s why Shin and Herc are so popular.If you place Sol on last slot she only need 60BG(40BG if you have Mike in front her) to participate in a FB. With BG skill from Shin and Mike, she have no problem to join 3t-4t FB cycle
P/S: 1.Since when Mike is a sword user ?
2.Lugh can only nuke twice in the first turn, it have 6T cd, her skill 3 reset her nuke.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Seeing ppl look down on Sol it kinda trigger me, try to bring a team with both Lugh and Tish in rag without any andro support user and see how long you can survive. Running Andro ?, you sacrifide Shingen dmg and slow down your whole just to kick Sol out ?, yes Sol is also slow, but she is a hime, not a soul, soul had to lead burst, that’s why Shin and Herc are so popular.If you place Sol on last slot she only need 60BG(40BG if you have Mike in front her) to participate in a FB. With BG skill from Shin and Mike, she have no problem to join 3t-4t FB cycle

Just to be clear, I think Sol is very good and I use her regularly for things like GO. It was not my intention to look down on her. I put her in the same bucket as Eros, who I also think is very good (even before AW) - there are situations where having Sol or Eros is a real lifesaver, and getting their utility from any other sources is just a real pain. When I de-prioritize Sol for mtix, it's purely based on the observation that I frequently forego Sol for various content, whereas I almost never drop Mike or Tish. Dropping Mike or Tish results in a very noticeable drop in DPS, which limits the content you can clear, how quickly you can clear it and how easy it is to MVP things. Versus dropping Sol, which admittedly makes certain battles very painful sometimes (mostly GO, espeically all 7 himes survive mission.) When it comes to mtix, it's a matter of priority, and my argument is simply that I would rather forego some battles like GO than forego overall DPS.

Also, just to be clear, I am NOT arguing that you should never mtix Sol. If you have Mike, Tish and Lugh already, I would mtix Sol. Also, if you are telling me that you are only ever going to spend money on one mtix only, then I would in fact mtix Sol, but mostly because Sol fits well in rainbow grids and is an excellent hedge against gacha RNG. Mike, Tish and Lugh plays on synergy - they all have potent burst effects and all make the team burst faster directly or indirectly by being fast themselves. If you only have one of them, they just aren't nearly as awesome and Sol starts looking much much more attractive.

Tactics-wise, I fully agree that running Andro to drop Sol is a bad trade, you do not want to do that. When I run without Sol, my strategy often involves letting himes die (usually Tish in my case, sometimes Take if I don't think I can make it until she recharges her swords) and rely on subs (usually Metatron, and sometimes Sol, yes, I DO use her.) This obviously doesn't work for GO if you want all 5 ori, but for any other events, it's just about clearing things quickly, casualties don't matter.

Two other points of consideration that may be causing our differences in opinions:
a. I only have one ascension weapon so far (missed the past light UEs). If you stack more ascension, Sol obviously gets better. For beginners though, they don't have ascension weapons either (the ori shop one isn't exactly great), so it's not like they'll see crazy high heal from Sol as first mtix.
b. I am not at the point where I can carry rag raids yet, so I have not studied their mechanics in-depth to see if Sol is a huge help. Sol is the only hime I'm aware of that can remove enemy buffs from all enemies at once, so if you're telling me that that is sort of required for some rag raids, then I will certainly entertain moving Sol up in the mtix priority. But rag raid is not exactly beginner stuff, so I may still think that you should get Sol after Mike and Tish.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

P/S: 1.Since when Mike is a sword user ?

Just tested it myself, replacing a sword with a weapon of similar attack results in a noticeable drop in Mike's ATK. Both the English and JP wiki also say Michael is a sword user (it doesn't have to match their unlock weapon, like Sol is a staff user even though her unlocking weapon is a gun.)

Originally Posted by Unregistered

2.Lugh can only nuke twice in the first turn, it have 6T cd, her skill 3 reset her nuke.

I have not pulled Lugh yet (she will be my next mtix), but my understanding from the JP wiki is that skill 3 is usable every single turn (for 15% hp.) So she can nuke twice every single turn as long as she has the hp to keep up. People with Lugh please confirm (looking at you AutoCrimson.)

Three minor points:

You want to do your Hime damage capability over a longer duration calculation (like 10 or 12 rounds). That will give you a better read on Trish and Michael's full damage capabilities. I do believe that you are right, Tish is actually a higher damage output contributor for low DATA teams than Michael, but doing the math will help others understand.

Hammer grids are the easiest base grids for light to do. The assault SR is a hammer, Nandi Hammer and the phantom weapon is 30% assault. It's a noticeable improvement over a non-phantom grid and is cheap to upgrade or switch out of at a later date.

I've been told that Bricking Lugh's lance is a bad choice. The best choices are Michael's and Trish's instead. Multiples are preferred. Eye Lance is passable if you can't get multiple copies of Michael's or Trish's, but brick this last (in the hopes of dupes).


Dejnov.

P.S. Tiara combo is the best combo hands down (priority for almost all Himes), but there are uses for the Standard combo also (350 regen , 10T) for certain (non-Sol) team set ups.

While I'm not touching the rest with a hundred feet pole due to knowing very little about Light thanks my RNG, but this bit:

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

--[*]Thunderbird deserves a mention. MLB thunderbird is 60% elemental and her active is also a DA boost, so she's very similar to fluffy. --

No, no, no, nooooo.

Thunderbird lasts one (1) turn, and has basically zero impact on the Double rate of your Hime.
Fluffy lasts three (3) turns, and seems to have an EXTREME impact on the Combo rate of your Himes. Well, based on the entire... three times I've used Fluffy?

So yeah, please no. Don't even consider Thunderbird. Her on-use is awful. Passive is 'lright if you get multiple Stars on her, like every gacha Eidolon.

Nice in-depth write-up. It would be nice to see the main post updated with this information. Just want to add a bit more info on phantom grids. For f2p, I think the easiest null grid to do is an axe grid, since you have 3 UE exceed axes and Yule Goat's axe so you only need one other axe. For whales, a lance grid is certainly an option but other strong null grid options include a null glaive grid taking advantage of Vishnu's FLB weapon (Assault L Defender S and Vigoras S upon FLB) and the guardian glaive with Exceed L Assault M or an arcane grid with Shamash's pride/assault/defender weapon and Light Athena's weapon with Defender L Exceed S and Assault S upon FLB.
Also regarding Lugh it's only one nuke each turn, since the reset only affects her second ability and not the first.

Originally Posted by Tanukimo

-- Just want to add a bit more info on phantom grids. For f2p, I think the easiest null grid to do is an axe grid, since you have 3 UE exceed axes and Yule Goat's axe so you only need one other axe. --

Don't bother with non-Lance/Glaive/Bow/Hammer Grids. By replacing an Assault weapon with something non-Assault like Phantom Axe, you lose about as much damage output as you gain from the base Atk. So, the upgrade is very minimal. Is it better than a non-Phantom Grid? Yes. Barely, but yes.

Is it worth your time, effort and resources? No.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

You want to do your Hime damage capability over a longer duration calculation (like 10 or 12 rounds). That will give you a better read on Trish and Michael's full damage capabilities. I do believe that you are right, Tish is actually a higher damage output contributor for low DATA teams than Michael, but doing the math will help others understand.

Ok, I started having another go at this, but it turned into a massive wall of text. Let me try this approach instead (which is still a wall of text, but I'm trying my best...):

Let the average dmg per SSR hime per turn = [A*(n-1) + 7.5+B]/n where A is the average dmg from attack and abilities, the 7.5 is from FB (5x + 50% burst streak), n is the average number of turns it takes to burst. A varies a lot depending on DATA rate and red abilities, but I will be generous and set it at 3 (most himes are closer to 2-2.5 in my experience.) B is burst multiplier adders like PF, exceed and Mike AW's ability 2. I will set B as zero for the base case just to make things less favorable to a burst build.

When you replace a generic SSR with Mike AW, you might lower A but also lower n and raise B. I would argue that Mike lowers A by at most 1-ish (her red ability doesn't hit as hard as some other himes but have a bunch of team-wide buffs) and she lowers n by at least 2 (2 if your team has close to guaranteed DA on average, closer to 4 if your DATA rate sucks.) Now, remember, we only replace 1 hime to accomodate Mike, so reduction in A is only 1/5. Mike also raise B by 1x (less on average if you burst much more frequently than the 7T CD.)

• If n before Mike is 9 (9 or 10T roughly on average if you try to get to FB without any DATA buffs or burst fill) then average dmg would be (3*8+7.5+0)/9 = 3.5x.
• With Mike AW, if I reduce A by 0.2, increase B by 0.5 and decrease n by 2-4, we get between 3.54x-3.84x, which is between 4-9% more dmg.
• If you repeat this with what I think are more realistic assumptions of A = 2.5, Mike A reduction of 0 (it can increase A if you time her buff with burst), it's 5-18% more dmg. If you further reduce base n by 1, it becomes 6-24% (i.e. the faster your team, the more valuable Mike becomes.)
• For reference, if you own a soul weapon and have a fluffy friend and full light sub eidolons, going from using Barong to fluffy as your main eidolon gives you a 22% boost (elemental going from 170% to 230%, less if you don't have all light sub eido), so these numbers from Mike are nothing to sneeze at.

For Tish, it's a similar story. Her ability 1's dmg and CD is about average, but the debuffs on it make it on par or better than a lot of other hime's like SSR Arty or LT. Ability 2 boosts atk, crit and most importantly 50% TA, and she can keep it up on 2 himes 5/6 of the time. I will only focus on the TA part. The TA alone boosts A by 1.5 on two himes (so 1.5*2/5*5/6 = 0.5 on average.) If you cast it on the bottleneck himes, it can also easily reduce n by between 1-2.

• With a Mike AW starting point of A=3, B=0.5, n=7, Tish adding 0.5 to A and reduce n by 1-2 will boost dmg by 14-18%.
• Repeat with A=2.5 instead, Tish will boost dmg by 17-21%.
• Remember, we still have not accounted for Tish's atk and critical boost and the fact that fast teams make Mike AW even more valuable.

Lugh is a slightly different animal, but using this framework, she basically boosts A by a lot and reduces n by about 1 or so.

Also, you can extend this framework to evaluate someone like Sol, except you need an extra variable showing how long the team can survive with or without Sol. So, it becomes like [A*(n-1) + 7.5+B]/n*E where E is endurance in turns.

• Sol tends to reduce A and increase n (if you already have Tish and Mike though, it can be neutral on n, since you can just stick her in the last slot as the previous poster mentioned.) Her value is from increasing E.
• If normally you die after the 1st OD at like T3 or T4, and Sol makes you survive till T6 or T8, increase in E is like 100%, and Sol will blow everyone else out of the water (and it's not just heal btw, her atk down is very nice, too.)
• My personal experience with Sol usually falls in two categories once my hp got high enough though:
  
  • For easier content, up to and including advent rag, Sol increases E by so much that the battle has long ended before I use that many turns, so her value is sort of wasted.
  • For public raids, I get a guaranteed potion which together with Tish's heal, usually gets me to T8-10 or so, depending on which raid we're talking about. Sol usually just adds about 2-4T more, so E increases by about 20-40% or so, which is a lot, but A takes a hit, and if I have to kick someone like Mike or Tish, A and n takes such a big hit that it's at best a wash. If the raid lags (which it usually does) and you want to try to MVP it, your best bet is to go for high A low E strategy, doubly so during BT.

Btw, lest I be accused of being a Sol-hater (I am not), I am only saying Sol falls behind Mike and Tish in value as your hp gets high enough. If you don't have other heavy hitters like Take or Metatron or Lugh or something, Sol is still very very good and you should keep her on your team. She only got relegated to sub 'cos I do have Take and Metatron (but no Lugh, yet...) Oh, and perhaps paradoxically, I would argue you should mtix Sol before you mtix Metatron or Take, well, at least after you have Lugh. Sol will help keep Lugh alive, so if you're in for a long fight, Sol is most likely better than another heavy hitter 'cos Lugh hits so hard that it offsets whatever reduction in A Sol brings. Utility himes like Sol and Eros are also more useful if you intend to use light for almost all content once you have your basic DPS machine.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Hammer grids are the easiest base grids for light to do. The assault SR is a hammer, Nandi Hammer and the phantom weapon is 30% assault. It's a noticeable improvement over a non-phantom grid and is cheap to upgrade or switch out of at a later date.

Very true, forgot about that one. You can easily fill the whole grid with hammers, too, not just 5 hammers. Metatron is also a hammer user, so bonus if you have her.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I've been told that Bricking Lugh's lance is a bad choice. The best choices are Michael's and Trish's instead. Multiples are preferred. Eye Lance is passable if you can't get multiple copies of Michael's or Trish's, but brick this last (in the hopes of dupes).

Lugh's lance FLB is large assault and medium elaborate, not terrible, large assault is always nice... But yeah Tish's (assault, exceed, ascension), and Mike's (assault, defender) are much better. So I'm even further from the ideal light grid than I thought...

Originally Posted by Dejnov

P.S. Tiara combo is the best combo hands down (priority for almost all Himes), but there are uses for the Standard combo also (350 regen , 10T) for certain (non-Sol) team set ups.

That's an excellent idea. I think I will stick that on Lugh when I mtix her, since it should become 700 regen on her if I understand her assist correctly.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Thunderbird lasts one (1) turn, and has basically zero impact on the Double rate of your Hime.
Fluffy lasts three (3) turns, and seems to have an EXTREME impact on the Combo rate of your Himes. Well, based on the entire... three times I've used Fluffy?

You are right... I can't believe I didn't notice this before given that I have quite a few Thunderbird friends and use them regularly... I always thought I'm getting through trash mobs slower with Thunderbird 'cos of the lower elemental, but it's probably that and lower DATA... My bad.

Originally Posted by Tanukimo

Also regarding Lugh it's only one nuke each turn, since the reset only affects her second ability and not the first.

Sooo, I see Lugh using ability 2 TWICE in a single turn here around the 3:00 mark and get 60 burst from just that (she needs to have bursted already for it to reach that ridiculous level, otherwise it's just 20/use at lvl 75+.) Unless taco one is nerfed... But if my eyes are not deceiving me, tell me how that is not OP and blows every other light himes out of the water for raw DPS. Combine it with Dejnov's regen accessories bonus idea, she's not as frail as people think either.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Don't bother with non-Lance/Glaive/Bow/Hammer Grids. By replacing an Assault weapon with something non-Assault like Phantom Axe, you lose about as much damage output as you gain from the base Atk. So, the upgrade is very minimal. Is it better than a non-Phantom Grid? Yes. Barely, but yes.

Is it worth your time, effort and resources? No.

It depends on a lot of factors, like how many red abilities you have and what your DATA rate is like, but the last time I ran some back-of-the-envelope numbers, I think at around 150%-ish assault and consistently bursting every 4 turns or so, exceed is almost as good as assault. Elaborate still suck though, so if you have a choice, listen to Slashley and don't choose axe (or my gun and sword grid ideas - I consider those sort of free since you'll have excess ori when you're consistently getting all 5 ori every cycle.) If you missed the old light UEs like me, axe grid isn't really an option anyway.

Lugh can only do double skill 2 nuke once and had to wait 6T to do that again if you like to do it, normal ppl just spam skill 3 and nuke once. That vid is tower tho so it’s reasonable for Bear to save that double nuke on boss. Yes a agree you can run Tish and Mike no problem without Sol, but when Lugh come, it’s a whole different story. The enemy is not a punching bag, they fight back, I doubt Tish and Lugh can last more than 10T in a rag, Lugh burst 15% of her heath every turn to dish out dps and stay fast, Tish burn 10% of her health every 3T to use buff, and if she want to keep Lugh stay alive a little bit longer, she had to burn 20% of her health for the heal. Sol is need to keep those 2 stay safe in an extreme environment like rags.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Sol is need to keep those 2 stay safe in an extreme environment like rags.

Um, which is why I say mtix Sol after Lugh? I feel like we disagree less than we think... If you're saying Lugh isn't great without Sol in situations where it matters, so you should get Sol before Lugh for the versatility, I can buy that.

I just trigger when someone say Sol is irrelevent in future Light *meta* team, the power of Sol scale with ascension which thankfully light have a lot, UE staff, Sol gun, Tish spear, some random advent and raid weap that i don’t care about, etc