Thread: Consolidated Light Team Topic

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I just trigger when someone say Sol is irrelevent in future Light *meta* team, the power of Sol scale with ascension which thankfully light have a lot, UE staff, Sol gun, Tish spear, some random advent and raid weap that i don’t care about, etc

you still need heal outside of Drag?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

you still need heal outside of Drag?

I'm not usually a Sol advocate, but if you are seriously saying that you don't need heal outside of DCat....
That's just pure arrogance + ignorance

I would like to see you last longer than 15T against Och while MVPing without any form of healing of your own.

You guys realize that you can use Lugh Abi2 twice if you reset it the turn before and then hold onto it into the next turn, right? In fact, this is the behavior you should subscribe to by default, esp. when Lugh is about to burst because you'll be able to get 3 hits off with her burst effect instead of 2. There's no reason to use it immediately because you'll never hold onto your reset for 6T to let it come off cooldown naturally.

And Managarmr buff lasts 2T, not 3.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Ok, I started having another go at this, but it turned into a massive wall of text. Let me try this approach instead (which is still a wall of text, but I'm trying my best...):

Let the average dmg per SSR hime per turn = [A*(n-1) + 7.5+B]/n where A is the average dmg from attack and abilities, the 7.5 is from FB (5x + 50% burst streak), n is the average number of turns it takes to burst. A varies a lot depending on DATA rate and red abilities, but I will be generous and set it at 3 (most himes are closer to 2-2.5 in my experience.) B is burst multiplier adders like PF, exceed and Mike AW's ability 2. I will set B as zero for the base case just to make things less favorable to a burst build.


It depends on a lot of factors, like how many red abilities you have and what your DATA rate is like, but the last time I ran some back-of-the-envelope numbers, I think at around 150%-ish assault and consistently bursting every 4 turns or so, exceed is almost as good as assault. Elaborate still suck though, so if you have a choice, listen to Slashley and don't choose axe (or my gun and sword grid ideas - I consider those sort of free since you'll have excess ori when you're consistently getting all 5 ori every cycle.) If you missed the old light UEs like me, axe grid isn't really an option anyway.

So dreamlitz, I apologize for not responding earlier and only with my brief note as I was traveling today. Let me expound how I think you should be calculating Hime damage per turn (DPT) so that you get a more accurate read on Michael's and Trish's capabilities. It's easier to think of having the Himes do damage for a certain number of rounds and then divide the team's damage by the number of rounds used. 10 rounds is easy for decile calculations, while I typically prefer 12 rounds for max whole number divisibility so that I can intuitively understand the bonus I'm getting 'per Hime', but either is fair and provides the same utility once calculated. I'll use the 12 round system for the example below.

A typical Hime will deliver their raw assault (plus grid and eidolon modifiers which are invariant for our examples) per round with a typical SSR giving 5x damage on the round it bursts. Base Balance,Tricky Himes are around 8k attack, offense Himes are around 9k-10k and Healing and Defense Himes are around 7k. If we take the 8k assault Hime as the base our Hime set is either 1.0x, 1.2x, or 0.875x depending on if their Balanced, Offensive, or a Healing type Hime. Our base Hime team will be able to burst every 10th round (soul single attacks every round and takes 10 rounds to generate 100 burst) and so over 10 rounds will do 1.0x nine times and 5.0x once for a total attack power of 14.0x. This assumption is fairly useless though as no 'real' team needs that many rounds to actually burst and that's due to powers and abilities.

If you're using Hercules as your main soul, with minor BG help she should be able to burst every 7th round and if you're using Shingen she should burst every 5th round. A team with Hercules as main soul over 12 rounds does 16.0x damage (5.0x once and 1.0x eleven times), while the Shingen team should be able to deliver two bursts for a total of 20.0x damage (5.0x twice and 1.0x ten times). This is basically around a 25% increase in damage output for the Shingen team provided that the leader can generate 90 burst in 4 rounds. You can do this in a couple of ways (DATA, Encourage Inspiration, Burst Up power, etc.). Team rearrangement follows that path. IF you do this through DATA please note that the base first slot hime has to still do 9 attacks in 4 turns instead of in 6 turns which equates to a 1.25 upper to overall damage. That makes characters that can up or guarantee DATA much more powerful (like Tishtrya, Takeminakata) than characters that just generate free burst (Shingen and Michael). If you do generate the damage this way you can add another 1.25 (6 rounds to 4 rounds) to the base damage on non-burst rounds. The overall damage output will be 5.0x twice and 1.25 ten times for a total of 22.5x damage or an additional 12.5% damage.

Current damage outputs are currently:

16.0x for a Hercules team with burst on 7th round
20.0x for a Shingen team with burst on 5th round
22.5x for a Shingen team with burst on 5th round and mostly DATA up.


The next damage break is if you can burst on 4th round (3 rounds to generate). This gives you 3 bursts in 12 rounds and 9 base rounds for a total damage output of 24.0x over 12 rounds or another 33% increase if through DATA for a total of 27.0x damage. Note that PF can only help every other burst and if you state you're always getting full burst than the 5.0x per burst goes to 7.5x (like you stated earlier).

Two main ideas come out of this very quickly. Getting the burst down a round (all else being equal) can really up your damage (from 16.0x to 20.0x to 24.0x), if you can reliably burst that fast. Also, DATA is very very powerful since it keeps damage output to each burst constant versus just getting more 5.0x (or 7.5x) burst multipliers in a 12 round set.

So how does this fit into Light Himes in general?

There are 4 fast Light Himes currently: Tishtrya, Michael, Takeminakata, and Lugh. (Please note: I don't have Lugh and so can't comment fully on her).

Tish ups the team primarily through Triple Attack (two Himes) and adds +20 per cycle (Abi1 and Abi2) to herself for a total of +80 base burst per 3 turn cycle (2 chars at 50% TA for bonus 30 BG each and 20 BG to herself), with most of her BG also giving more attacks (i.e. 60 BG x 1.33 multiplier for TA and then 20 BG base for a total of around 100 BG/damage effective team gain). Also note she takes 3 turns to ramp up (get the second Hime to TA) so she's a bit slow at the start.

Awakened Michael adds 100BG to the team per 3 turn cycle (20BG x5 per skill and then 20BG x5 after full burst for approximately 200 BG every 6 turns), but does not add any additional DATA. So her total effective team gain is the base 100BG from her skill.

Takeminakata gets guaranteed TA for 3 rounds (and then has to wait 7 rounds with nothing). This would make her effective BG 90 x 1.33 or 120 BG/damage effective team gain, but she can only do the trick once every third burst so her effective BG is 120/3 or 40BG/damage effective gain. Not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

Lugh can up her BG 20 per round (for 15% health) or 30 per round after a full burst, but can't sustain the trick for long combats nor does she up her DATA capability. She's around Takeminakata's level of sustained BG generation; about 40BG/damage effective gain and can still sustain a burst every 4th round. Still not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

For overall team speed, Michael wins hands down. Trish helps more with a balanced damage/speed output, and both Lugh and Take are initially fast, individual burst generators that tend to lack long sustains. Michael and Tish help a team burst faster, but more importantly can help bring a slow Hime (or possibly two) onto a fast burst team. Take and Lugh are first slot Himes and are fairly interchangeable as long as you have both Michael and Tish. The third slot can take any slow Hime (like Sol, Shamash, Athena, etc.) and still maintain the 4th turn burst.

My old team (prior to Take) was Artemis, Tish, Sol, and Michael with Tish always speeding up Artemis first and Sol second. It could make a 4th turn burst 80-90% of the time (sadly no Tiara Light accessories for Art yet) and with Encourage Inspiration could guarantee every 4th turn burst (and could nearly get 3rd turn burst 90% of the time). It did lack full defense down though. With my new team of Take, Tish, Tsuki/Sol, and Michael I can definitely generate an initial 3rd turn burst and/or sustain 4th turn continuous bursts and can hit full defense down OR bring healing.

Take, Lugh, Tsuki and Sol can all be rotated depending on what you have or don't have (I still don't have Lugh aargh!!) and depending on the content you're looking to take on and how fast you truly want to go. But you truly need Michael, Tishtrya, or both create any base fast burst Light team.


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

It's easier to think of having the Himes do damage for a certain number of rounds and then divide the team's damage by the number of rounds used.

Dejnov, thank you for the post! Yes, I agree that your calculation is the more intuitive way of doing it. My short-hand calculation is just that, a short-hand way of getting at the same qualitative conclusion. Apparently not too convincing though.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Base Balance,Tricky Himes are around 8k attack, offense Himes are around 9k-10k and Healing and Defense Himes are around 7k. If we take the 8k assault Hime as the base our Hime set is either 1.0x, 1.2x, or 0.875x depending on if their Balanced, Offensive, or a Healing type Hime.

Yes, my calculations implicitly assumes that everyone has the same base atk, which just isn't the case. However, when you start FLB-ing things, hime stats become a smaller and smaller portion of total atk, so those multipliers are gonna get closer together.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

This assumption is fairly useless though as no 'real' team needs that many rounds to actually burst and that's due to powers and abilities.

Yes, I could have picked a better base case... I was starting from the perspective of a new player with all SR and deciding on first mtix and actually purposely trying to stack the deck against Mike and Tish just to make a point.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

That makes characters that can up or guarantee DATA much more powerful (like Tishtrya, Takeminakata) than characters that just generate free burst (Shingen and Michael).

Nitpick, but both Shingen and Michael AW ups DATA for the whole team. It's not on the same level as Tish and I won't rely on it for BG unless you stack it like crazy with eido effects, accessories and tiara bonuses (just gotta figure out how to survive those death beams from light rag...)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

There are 4 fast Light Himes currently: Tishtrya, Michael, Takeminakata, and Lugh. (Please note: I don't have Lugh and so can't comment fully on her).

I know people don't like Vishnu 'cos she's really hard to use, but she's fast, too, like Lugh fast, well until Lugh bursts that is... But Vishnu can actually keep herself alive. If you have no one better or don't have a healer to pair with Lugh, Vishnu still gets the job done. Also, if you're trying to MVP something and just need to burst as quickly as possible like the current raid, Metatron is your girl.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Also note she[Tish] takes 3 turns to ramp up (get the second Hime to TA) so she's a bit slow at the start.

Takeminakata gets guaranteed TA for 3 rounds (and then has to wait 7 rounds with nothing).

Do what I do - first TA buff from Tish goes on the soul, after the first burst, put it on Take. Keeps the burst speed pretty even so no one is falling significantly behind. That is why I love Tish, when you use her well, it keeps your burst machine in sync so it's rare for anyone to be waiting around for burst (unless you use Metatron, she's a different animal.)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Lugh can up her BG 20 per round (for 15% health) or 30 per round after a full burst, but can't sustain the trick for long combats nor does she up her DATA capability. She's around Takeminakata's level of sustained BG generation; about 40BG/damage effective gain and can still sustain a burst every 4th round. Still not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

Yes, but remember every time she gets her BG 20, she is also nuking for 3-3.5x, that's on top of her regular attack, so that's like much better than even Take's TA. Also, depending on whether you can spare Tish's heal on Lugh or have Sol on your team, Lugh can in theory keep it up much longer than Take. You can also 'store' Lugh's BG for 1T and do double nuke/BG the next turn, whereas Take's TA is wasted if you burst on a turn where her TA is still up (I want Lugh so badly )

Certainly not in the realm of Tish or Mike, yes, but they have different roles, and ideally you want all of them - Mike just speeds everyone up, Tish is fast and speeds up bottleneck himes, Lugh/Take/Vishnu are faster and makes it easy to accommodate a slow hime (Arty / LT / Sol / Eros / Raphy / whatever you have/need for the content you're facing.)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

But you truly need Michael, Tishtrya, or both create any base fast burst Light team.

I completely agree, which is why I consider Mike and Tish to be core - they give you a very respectable baseline DPS with nice set of utility skills. Then tack on two more himes depending on what you need, and most light SSRs are very very nice.

How can you compare Take with Lugh ?, Lugh is just better in any case, if you can keep her nuke constantly, you are looking at 4-4,5x dmg and 30BG per turn without any DATA, 8x dmg 40BG in the turn after burst, 15x dmg 70BG if you do the double nuke after burst trick. Take GTA is 3x dmg 30 BG per turn that have mother fucking 10T cool down.
Metatron is a different monster?, even with AW she is still subtatron, she is weak, 150% burst dmg per 2 turn ?, that’s a joke compare to Uriel 400% burst dmg per 2 turn that come along with a mini 1x dmg and GDATA buff. The only time Metatron do fancy dmg is when her count is 0, even with that, you deal 3-3,5m dmg at most if you hit dark enemy with her crit with your maxed F2P grid. To reach that 4m cap, you need whale grid. And how long Metatron need to do 3-4m dmg ?, 9 fucking turn, she do basically nothing in between, just a pure dead weight with no DATA and nuke. Take and Meta only good in dummy, out side that, Lugh kick their ass hard

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Yes, my calculations implicitly assumes that everyone has the same base atk, which just isn't the case. However, when you start FLB-ing things, hime stats become a smaller and smaller portion of total atk, so those multipliers are gonna get closer together.

Good point; at enough attack you can start forgetting about what type of Himes you're fielding and focus more on what abilities they bring to the table.

Nitpick, but both Shingen and Michael AW ups DATA for the whole team. It's not on the same level as Tish and I won't rely on it for BG unless you stack it like crazy with eido effects, accessories and tiara bonuses (just gotta figure out how to survive those death beams from light rag...)

I didn't include it because the amounts, without other sources, are small absolute damage modifiers (less than 5-10%) and would muddy the analogy and equations. That said, they are absolutely important and are useful. I had a small scrap where I had written out the different DATA sources that I could possibly generate (Michael's, Thunderbird, Shingen's, Manag, etc.) and you should definitely take them into consideration as your buffing your team for 4T bursting.

I know people don't like Vishnu 'cos she's really hard to use, but she's fast, too, like Lugh fast, well until Lugh bursts that is... But Vishnu can actually keep herself alive. If you have no one better or don't have a healer to pair with Lugh, Vishnu still gets the job done. Also, if you're trying to MVP something and just need to burst as quickly as possible like the current raid, Metatron is your girl.

I apologize, I don't have Vishnu so I always forget how fast she is. As for Metatron, once she went into first sub spot, she also tends not to be on my thought list for team creation. She is fast, but doesn't support sustained fast bursting like the other 4 Himes we're talking about.

Do what I do - first TA buff from Tish goes on the soul, after the first burst, put it on Take. Keeps the burst speed pretty even so no one is falling significantly behind. That is why I love Tish, when you use her well, it keeps your burst machine in sync so it's rare for anyone to be waiting around for burst (unless you use Metatron, she's a different animal.)

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much. You have Sol for when she tries to paralyze you and for some healing to keep you through the 20Mil life she has. This strategy also works on soloing the Wind Ult also (just no need for 3T burst). For the standard 4T burst cycle, I always buff the Hime prior (slot 1) to Tish (if not Take) so that I can get there and then buff Sol (slot 3) on the next opportunity. My current team is Shingen, Tsuki, Tish, Sol and Michael. I also activate both Michael and Shingen's DATA buff on turn one. It's fairly rare that Tsuki isn't at 90 for the 4T burst (less than ~5% of the time) and it's usually because I hit a streak of DA's instead of TA's. Takeminakata makes the team faster and hit harder, but I lose the full 50% DEF down in that setup, so I'm moving more to running Tsuki than Take at the moment. Make sure whoever you pick for the that second slot gets all DATA items you can give her. Right now Tsuki has, I think, around 7% total DATA from accessories since all three are just that. It's not enough, but it helps in sustaining the 4T burst on a slow Hime until we get the Tiara bonus unlocked.

If you're running Joan for sustain in a Rag fights, then, by all means, TA buff her. You're not trying to over power the Rag anymore and are looking to contribute through the fight.

Yes, but remember every time she gets her BG 20, she is also nuking for 3-3.5x, that's on top of her regular attack, so that's like much better than even Take's TA. Also, depending on whether you can spare Tish's heal on Lugh or have Sol on your team, Lugh can in theory keep it up much longer than Take. You can also 'store' Lugh's BG for 1T and do double nuke/BG the next turn, whereas Take's TA is wasted if you burst on a turn where her TA is still up (I want Lugh so badly )

Certainly not in the realm of Tish or Mike, yes, but they have different roles, and ideally you want all of them - Mike just speeds everyone up, Tish is fast and speeds up bottleneck himes, Lugh/Take/Vishnu are faster and makes it easy to accommodate a slow hime (Arty / LT / Sol / Eros / Raphy / whatever you have/need for the content you're facing.)

Don't worry bud... next Miracle Ticket! Won't be more than 3/4 months. Not that long at all.


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

How can you compare Take with Lugh ?, Lugh is just better in any case, if you can keep her nuke constantly, you are looking at 4-4,5x dmg and 30BG per turn without any DATA, 8x dmg 40BG in the turn after burst, 15x dmg 70BG if you do the double nuke after burst trick. Take GTA is 3x dmg 30 BG per turn that have mother fucking 10T cool down.

I don't want to put words in Dejnov's mouth, but if I'm not mistaken, neither Dejnov nor I are arguing that Take is better than Lugh. If anything, I thought we were giving the opposite impression - neither of us have Lugh and wants Lugh so badly even though we both have Take. The comparison we are trying to make is about keeping burst up, since bursting frequently is a very important source of dmg, and for that, Take can be competitive with Lugh 'cos Lugh needs heal to keep going. That is why I mentioned Vishnu, who is consistently fast without needing heal or waiting for CD, even though her individual DPS normally can't come close to competing with Lugh or even Take. If she's all you've got though, you can still build a high speed burst team with her.

Also, if I am to nitpick, if your grid is still sporting multiple SR disaster hammers, Take's echo burst is no joke and might actually be able to compete with Lugh (haven't done the math, shoot me down if you ran the numbers and find that I'm dead wrong.) Take can take care of herself and is a good pull for almost anyone. Whereas, if your best healer is Belobog and you don't have any of the fast himes, you might think Lugh is overrated (and just to be clear, I think Lugh is awesome, I literally spent all my jewels and tickets to try to pull for her but failed.)

Metatron is a different monster?

I said 'a different animal'... Figure of speech... As in she is a special case, I did not mean to imply she's extra strong. I was trying to say that Tish can keep everyone's BG more or less in sync so no one is waiting around for burst. Metatron WILL be waiting around for burst even with Tish around, so she is a special case. Whether that special case is useful or not depends on the situation.

even with AW she is still subtatron, she is weak, 150% burst dmg per 2 turn ?, that’s a joke compare to Uriel 400% burst dmg per 2 turn that come along with a mini 1x dmg and GDATA buff.

I agree, the closest light hime to Uriel AW level DPS is Lugh, but they operate kinda differently. Uriel AW can be awesome on her own, Lugh needs to be paired with heal to remain awesome for longer battles.

And how long Metatron need to do 3-4m dmg ?, 9 fucking turn, she do basically nothing in between, just a pure dead weight with no DATA and nuke.

Eh, her 150% burst stacks on 2T CD kinda functions like a nuke though. Most red abilities give like what 3x dmg on a 6-7T CD. If you're using her as a main, don't put her in the first slot so you can get her to burst on her own and get enough BG in time to join the FB, essentially giving her a nuke. Her dmg output is very respectable compared to anyone except Lugh and is far from dead weight imo.

Take and Meta only good in dummy, out side that, Lugh kick their ass hard

Not disagreeing, Lugh is OP if you use her right.

Btw, I find it slightly ironic that yesterday I was portrayed as a Sol-hater and today I'm a Lugh-hater, when in fact I love both and actually tell ppl to mtix both if they can..

Originally Posted by Dejnov

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much. You have Sol for when she tries to paralyze you and for some healing to keep you through the 20Mil life she has. This strategy also works on soloing the Wind Ult also (just no need for 3T burst). For the standard 4T burst cycle, I always buff the Hime prior (slot 1) to Tish (if not Take) so that I can get there and then buff Sol (slot 3) on the next opportunity. My current team is Shingen, Tsuki, Tish, Sol and Michael. I also activate both Michael and Shingen's DATA buff on turn one. It's fairly rare that Tsuki isn't at 90 for the 4T burst (less than ~5% of the time) and it's usually because I hit a streak of DA's instead of TA's. Takeminakata makes the team faster and hit harder, but I lose the full 50% DEF down in that setup, so I'm moving more to running Tsuki than Take at the moment. Make sure whoever you pick for the that second slot gets all DATA items you can give her. Right now Tsuki has, I think, around 7% total DATA from accessories since all three are just that. It's not enough, but it helps in sustaining the 4T burst on a slow Hime until we get the Tiara bonus unlocked.

Interesting... I don't have Shingen yet (ignored UE when I first started playing the game, BIG mistake x_x) so I'm running Herc usually. I will definitely need to give that a shot when I get round to it.

Don't worry bud... next Miracle Ticket! Won't be more than 3/4 months. Not that long at all..

Yes, I already earmarked the money from my gaming budget for it =P

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Btw, I find it slightly ironic that yesterday I was portrayed as a Sol-hater and today I'm a Lugh-hater, when in fact I love both and actually tell ppl to mtix both if they can..

Damn dream... why are you such a Debbie-downer... gotta hate on all the popular gurls....


Dejnov.

1. Take echo burst is 500k dmg in the first burst cycle because she start with 3 sword and each sword give her 250k dmg, but she had to use 1 for her GTA tho. You had to save her first skill for second cycle if you don’t what her to lose 50% of her atk and def because of that passive. So the second cycle she will be a complete dead weight with no dmg nor speed, basically a R hime, so she need Tish’s help, but if you speed her up to release that sweet 750k echo burst, her first skill can’t come of cd on time so that turn her into a 1/2 R hime. Furthermore, she can’t be used as a burst leader like Lugh because Tish need to help someone else.
2. Compare meta to Uriel is a little bit unfair, let take Ares instead, the one that you guys say she is mediocre, ok?. Meta is decently fast because her BG skill and if you take her burst dmg as a nuke, it’s 4,5x dmg 6t cd nuke, Ares have 7x dmg 6t cd nuke, she is as fast as meta, and on top of that, she beat meta by her DATA dmg, so yeah, meta still suck out side tower.
3. Sol need help from Tish, but both Tish and Lugh need help from Sol, it’s called team synergy, full force Lugh out dmg Uriel easily and super constantly fast that free Tish to help out others like Sol or Mike.
TLDR: Tish and Mike is the base of Light team, if you want more dmg, take Lugh, if you want to use Lugh, take Sol. or you can wait until Iris come out, she is a little bit RNG, but if her RNG is good, her DMG can even compare with full force Lugh, and she don’t need Sol yay, so then you can run whatever you bias want.
P/s: Lugh have 20% C-frame for debuff lover, just mention XD