Thread: Consolidated Light Team Topic

Originally Posted by Dejnov

It's easier to think of having the Himes do damage for a certain number of rounds and then divide the team's damage by the number of rounds used.

Dejnov, thank you for the post! Yes, I agree that your calculation is the more intuitive way of doing it. My short-hand calculation is just that, a short-hand way of getting at the same qualitative conclusion. Apparently not too convincing though.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Base Balance,Tricky Himes are around 8k attack, offense Himes are around 9k-10k and Healing and Defense Himes are around 7k. If we take the 8k assault Hime as the base our Hime set is either 1.0x, 1.2x, or 0.875x depending on if their Balanced, Offensive, or a Healing type Hime.

Yes, my calculations implicitly assumes that everyone has the same base atk, which just isn't the case. However, when you start FLB-ing things, hime stats become a smaller and smaller portion of total atk, so those multipliers are gonna get closer together.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

This assumption is fairly useless though as no 'real' team needs that many rounds to actually burst and that's due to powers and abilities.

Yes, I could have picked a better base case... I was starting from the perspective of a new player with all SR and deciding on first mtix and actually purposely trying to stack the deck against Mike and Tish just to make a point.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

That makes characters that can up or guarantee DATA much more powerful (like Tishtrya, Takeminakata) than characters that just generate free burst (Shingen and Michael).

Nitpick, but both Shingen and Michael AW ups DATA for the whole team. It's not on the same level as Tish and I won't rely on it for BG unless you stack it like crazy with eido effects, accessories and tiara bonuses (just gotta figure out how to survive those death beams from light rag...)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

There are 4 fast Light Himes currently: Tishtrya, Michael, Takeminakata, and Lugh. (Please note: I don't have Lugh and so can't comment fully on her).

I know people don't like Vishnu 'cos she's really hard to use, but she's fast, too, like Lugh fast, well until Lugh bursts that is... But Vishnu can actually keep herself alive. If you have no one better or don't have a healer to pair with Lugh, Vishnu still gets the job done. Also, if you're trying to MVP something and just need to burst as quickly as possible like the current raid, Metatron is your girl.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Also note she[Tish] takes 3 turns to ramp up (get the second Hime to TA) so she's a bit slow at the start.

Takeminakata gets guaranteed TA for 3 rounds (and then has to wait 7 rounds with nothing).

Do what I do - first TA buff from Tish goes on the soul, after the first burst, put it on Take. Keeps the burst speed pretty even so no one is falling significantly behind. That is why I love Tish, when you use her well, it keeps your burst machine in sync so it's rare for anyone to be waiting around for burst (unless you use Metatron, she's a different animal.)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Lugh can up her BG 20 per round (for 15% health) or 30 per round after a full burst, but can't sustain the trick for long combats nor does she up her DATA capability. She's around Takeminakata's level of sustained BG generation; about 40BG/damage effective gain and can still sustain a burst every 4th round. Still not bad, but not in the realm of Tish or Michael.

Yes, but remember every time she gets her BG 20, she is also nuking for 3-3.5x, that's on top of her regular attack, so that's like much better than even Take's TA. Also, depending on whether you can spare Tish's heal on Lugh or have Sol on your team, Lugh can in theory keep it up much longer than Take. You can also 'store' Lugh's BG for 1T and do double nuke/BG the next turn, whereas Take's TA is wasted if you burst on a turn where her TA is still up (I want Lugh so badly )

Certainly not in the realm of Tish or Mike, yes, but they have different roles, and ideally you want all of them - Mike just speeds everyone up, Tish is fast and speeds up bottleneck himes, Lugh/Take/Vishnu are faster and makes it easy to accommodate a slow hime (Arty / LT / Sol / Eros / Raphy / whatever you have/need for the content you're facing.)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

But you truly need Michael, Tishtrya, or both create any base fast burst Light team.

I completely agree, which is why I consider Mike and Tish to be core - they give you a very respectable baseline DPS with nice set of utility skills. Then tack on two more himes depending on what you need, and most light SSRs are very very nice.

How can you compare Take with Lugh ?, Lugh is just better in any case, if you can keep her nuke constantly, you are looking at 4-4,5x dmg and 30BG per turn without any DATA, 8x dmg 40BG in the turn after burst, 15x dmg 70BG if you do the double nuke after burst trick. Take GTA is 3x dmg 30 BG per turn that have mother fucking 10T cool down.
Metatron is a different monster?, even with AW she is still subtatron, she is weak, 150% burst dmg per 2 turn ?, that’s a joke compare to Uriel 400% burst dmg per 2 turn that come along with a mini 1x dmg and GDATA buff. The only time Metatron do fancy dmg is when her count is 0, even with that, you deal 3-3,5m dmg at most if you hit dark enemy with her crit with your maxed F2P grid. To reach that 4m cap, you need whale grid. And how long Metatron need to do 3-4m dmg ?, 9 fucking turn, she do basically nothing in between, just a pure dead weight with no DATA and nuke. Take and Meta only good in dummy, out side that, Lugh kick their ass hard

Originally Posted by Unregistered

How can you compare Take with Lugh ?, Lugh is just better in any case, if you can keep her nuke constantly, you are looking at 4-4,5x dmg and 30BG per turn without any DATA, 8x dmg 40BG in the turn after burst, 15x dmg 70BG if you do the double nuke after burst trick. Take GTA is 3x dmg 30 BG per turn that have mother fucking 10T cool down.

I don't want to put words in Dejnov's mouth, but if I'm not mistaken, neither Dejnov nor I are arguing that Take is better than Lugh. If anything, I thought we were giving the opposite impression - neither of us have Lugh and wants Lugh so badly even though we both have Take. The comparison we are trying to make is about keeping burst up, since bursting frequently is a very important source of dmg, and for that, Take can be competitive with Lugh 'cos Lugh needs heal to keep going. That is why I mentioned Vishnu, who is consistently fast without needing heal or waiting for CD, even though her individual DPS normally can't come close to competing with Lugh or even Take. If she's all you've got though, you can still build a high speed burst team with her.

Also, if I am to nitpick, if your grid is still sporting multiple SR disaster hammers, Take's echo burst is no joke and might actually be able to compete with Lugh (haven't done the math, shoot me down if you ran the numbers and find that I'm dead wrong.) Take can take care of herself and is a good pull for almost anyone. Whereas, if your best healer is Belobog and you don't have any of the fast himes, you might think Lugh is overrated (and just to be clear, I think Lugh is awesome, I literally spent all my jewels and tickets to try to pull for her but failed.)

Metatron is a different monster?

I said 'a different animal'... Figure of speech... As in she is a special case, I did not mean to imply she's extra strong. I was trying to say that Tish can keep everyone's BG more or less in sync so no one is waiting around for burst. Metatron WILL be waiting around for burst even with Tish around, so she is a special case. Whether that special case is useful or not depends on the situation.

even with AW she is still subtatron, she is weak, 150% burst dmg per 2 turn ?, that’s a joke compare to Uriel 400% burst dmg per 2 turn that come along with a mini 1x dmg and GDATA buff.

I agree, the closest light hime to Uriel AW level DPS is Lugh, but they operate kinda differently. Uriel AW can be awesome on her own, Lugh needs to be paired with heal to remain awesome for longer battles.

And how long Metatron need to do 3-4m dmg ?, 9 fucking turn, she do basically nothing in between, just a pure dead weight with no DATA and nuke.

Eh, her 150% burst stacks on 2T CD kinda functions like a nuke though. Most red abilities give like what 3x dmg on a 6-7T CD. If you're using her as a main, don't put her in the first slot so you can get her to burst on her own and get enough BG in time to join the FB, essentially giving her a nuke. Her dmg output is very respectable compared to anyone except Lugh and is far from dead weight imo.

Take and Meta only good in dummy, out side that, Lugh kick their ass hard

Not disagreeing, Lugh is OP if you use her right.

Btw, I find it slightly ironic that yesterday I was portrayed as a Sol-hater and today I'm a Lugh-hater, when in fact I love both and actually tell ppl to mtix both if they can..

Originally Posted by Dejnov

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much. You have Sol for when she tries to paralyze you and for some healing to keep you through the 20Mil life she has. This strategy also works on soloing the Wind Ult also (just no need for 3T burst). For the standard 4T burst cycle, I always buff the Hime prior (slot 1) to Tish (if not Take) so that I can get there and then buff Sol (slot 3) on the next opportunity. My current team is Shingen, Tsuki, Tish, Sol and Michael. I also activate both Michael and Shingen's DATA buff on turn one. It's fairly rare that Tsuki isn't at 90 for the 4T burst (less than ~5% of the time) and it's usually because I hit a streak of DA's instead of TA's. Takeminakata makes the team faster and hit harder, but I lose the full 50% DEF down in that setup, so I'm moving more to running Tsuki than Take at the moment. Make sure whoever you pick for the that second slot gets all DATA items you can give her. Right now Tsuki has, I think, around 7% total DATA from accessories since all three are just that. It's not enough, but it helps in sustaining the 4T burst on a slow Hime until we get the Tiara bonus unlocked.

Interesting... I don't have Shingen yet (ignored UE when I first started playing the game, BIG mistake x_x) so I'm running Herc usually. I will definitely need to give that a shot when I get round to it.

Don't worry bud... next Miracle Ticket! Won't be more than 3/4 months. Not that long at all..

Yes, I already earmarked the money from my gaming budget for it =P

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Btw, I find it slightly ironic that yesterday I was portrayed as a Sol-hater and today I'm a Lugh-hater, when in fact I love both and actually tell ppl to mtix both if they can..

Damn dream... why are you such a Debbie-downer... gotta hate on all the popular gurls....


Dejnov.

1. Take echo burst is 500k dmg in the first burst cycle because she start with 3 sword and each sword give her 250k dmg, but she had to use 1 for her GTA tho. You had to save her first skill for second cycle if you don’t what her to lose 50% of her atk and def because of that passive. So the second cycle she will be a complete dead weight with no dmg nor speed, basically a R hime, so she need Tish’s help, but if you speed her up to release that sweet 750k echo burst, her first skill can’t come of cd on time so that turn her into a 1/2 R hime. Furthermore, she can’t be used as a burst leader like Lugh because Tish need to help someone else.
2. Compare meta to Uriel is a little bit unfair, let take Ares instead, the one that you guys say she is mediocre, ok?. Meta is decently fast because her BG skill and if you take her burst dmg as a nuke, it’s 4,5x dmg 6t cd nuke, Ares have 7x dmg 6t cd nuke, she is as fast as meta, and on top of that, she beat meta by her DATA dmg, so yeah, meta still suck out side tower.
3. Sol need help from Tish, but both Tish and Lugh need help from Sol, it’s called team synergy, full force Lugh out dmg Uriel easily and super constantly fast that free Tish to help out others like Sol or Mike.
TLDR: Tish and Mike is the base of Light team, if you want more dmg, take Lugh, if you want to use Lugh, take Sol. or you can wait until Iris come out, she is a little bit RNG, but if her RNG is good, her DMG can even compare with full force Lugh, and she don’t need Sol yay, so then you can run whatever you bias want.
P/s: Lugh have 20% C-frame for debuff lover, just mention XD

Originally Posted by Unregistered

1. Take echo burst is 500k dmg in the first burst cycle because she start with 3 sword and each sword give her 250k dmg, but she had to use 1 for her GTA tho. You had to save her first skill for second cycle if you don’t what her to lose 50% of her atk and def because of that passive. So the second cycle she will be a complete dead weight with no dmg nor speed, basically a R hime, so she need Tish’s help, but if you speed her up to release that sweet 750k echo burst, her first skill can’t come of cd on time so that turn her into a 1/2 R hime. Furthermore, she can’t be used as a burst leader like Lugh because Tish need to help someone else.

I agree, in any drawn out combat with a half decent light team, Take is gonna be caught without her swords for at least a few turns and will also need Tish's help. What I like about Take is that she is much more flexible than people perhaps realize:

• You can front-load her dmg and just use abi 1 and nothing else during BT to unleash a sick 1.25m echo burst. In things like raid events, losing atk and def doesn't matter 'cos the boss dies soon after anyway with other players piling on.
• You can back-load dmg as well if you can turtle and hold back bursting. Only use abi 1 and abi 2, so Take builds up to 5 swords and 3 more stored in abi 1 off CD while being nearly indestructible with effectively 2/6 dmg immunity and 333/T heal - this is useful occasionally in GO.
• You can turbo front-load dmg on mob by using abi 3 then abi 1 on T1, so you get the double AoE nuke with critical. This is useful in dark AQ1-4 when you just want to clear it quickly.
• For those at the point where you're worrying about dmg cap (I'm not there yet), Take's echo burst becomes more important, especially in things like upcoming dummy events as another poster has mentioned.

Take's flexibility comes at the cost of inconsistent speed and dmg output. If you just need DPS, nothing beats Lugh, no one is questioning that. I wouldn't completely write off Take just because Lugh has arrived though.

2. Compare meta to Uriel is a little bit unfair, let take Ares instead, the one that you guys say she is mediocre, ok?. Meta is decently fast because her BG skill and if you take her burst dmg as a nuke, it’s 4,5x dmg 6t cd nuke, Ares have 7x dmg 6t cd nuke, she is as fast as meta, and on top of that, she beat meta by her DATA dmg, so yeah, meta still suck out side tower.

I'm gonna stick my neck out a little for Meta, while hoping I don't offend someone else and be accused of hating yet another popular hime. I don't want this to turn into a light vs fire comparison, since that seems beyond the scope of this thread, but Ares and Meta are designed for different situations. Ares works best in encounters that don't drag on forever. Meta works best either in situations where she's only needed for a turn or two for burst, or very long encounters dragging out to T9 where she bursts hard (e.g. GO, maybe AQ depending on your play style.) She can also 'store' dmg by stacking abi 1 and not bursting. She is more of a spike dmg machine, not an OP DPS machine. It's somewhat similar to the Take vs Lugh comparison. Meta provides more tactical options, and that comes at a cost. In most situations, ppl just want DPS, and that is why most ppl with Meta put her in the sub slot. But I think it's a mistake to ignore her just because there're better DPS-ers.

Light has great tactical options, which makes it a very nice element to main in for ppl like me that uses just one element 95%+ of the time either because of laziness, don't have the time and resources to maintain multiple elements, or just haven't played long enough to have decent grids for every element from just f2p.

TLDR: Tish and Mike is the base of Light team, if you want more dmg, take Lugh, if you want to use Lugh, take Sol. or you can wait until Iris come out, she is a little bit RNG, but if her RNG is good, her DMG can even compare with full force Lugh, and she don’t need Sol yay, so then you can run whatever you bias want.

Agreed, very nice summary!

P/s: Lugh have 20% C-frame for debuff lover, just mention XD

And Iris has 30% light rst down O.O Which is why SSR Arty and LT are falling out of meta (I've been told they get a rebalance later that makes them look less bad next to Lugh and Iris, but you'll still want Lugh and/or Iris...)

some of you might disagree with me but this is my current composition


its not flashy like the other builds, but its very well rounded. i use this team for most contents.

my struggle with Take / Tish and Shingen is that they each have weaknesses that needs to be covered, making the team vulnerable to in certain situations - necessitating team swaps. this is especially the case with fights that have mechanics - usually some kind of enemy buff that needs to be cleansed or debuffs that need to be blocked. the extra DEF down is helpful too since some of them miss or on CD during multi-stage fights. you also don't depend on another teammate, which makes soloing Dark Cats much more bearable.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Yes, my calculations implicitly assumes that everyone has the same base atk, which just isn't the case. However, when you start FLB-ing things, hime stats become a smaller and smaller portion of total atk, so those multipliers are gonna get closer together.

Good point; at enough attack you can start forgetting about what type of Himes you're fielding and focus more on what abilities they bring to the table.

Nitpick, but both Shingen and Michael AW ups DATA for the whole team. It's not on the same level as Tish and I won't rely on it for BG unless you stack it like crazy with eido effects, accessories and tiara bonuses (just gotta figure out how to survive those death beams from light rag...)

I didn't include it because the amounts, without other sources, are small absolute damage modifiers (less than 5-10%) and would muddy the analogy and equations. That said, they are absolutely important and are useful. I had a small scrap where I had written out the different DATA sources that I could possibly generate (Michael's, Thunderbird, Shingen's, Manag, etc.) and you should definitely take them into consideration as your buffing your team for 4T bursting.

I know people don't like Vishnu 'cos she's really hard to use, but she's fast, too, like Lugh fast, well until Lugh bursts that is... But Vishnu can actually keep herself alive. If you have no one better or don't have a healer to pair with Lugh, Vishnu still gets the job done. Also, if you're trying to MVP something and just need to burst as quickly as possible like the current raid, Metatron is your girl.

I apologize, I don't have Vishnu so I always forget how fast she is. As for Metatron, once she went into first sub spot, she also tends not to be on my thought list for team creation. She is fast, but doesn't support sustained fast bursting like the other 4 Himes we're talking about.

Do what I do - first TA buff from Tish goes on the soul, after the first burst, put it on Take. Keeps the burst speed pretty even so no one is falling significantly behind. That is why I love Tish, when you use her well, it keeps your burst machine in sync so it's rare for anyone to be waiting around for burst (unless you use Metatron, she's a different animal.)

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much. You have Sol for when she tries to paralyze you and for some healing to keep you through the 20Mil life she has. This strategy also works on soloing the Wind Ult also (just no need for 3T burst). For the standard 4T burst cycle, I always buff the Hime prior (slot 1) to Tish (if not Take) so that I can get there and then buff Sol (slot 3) on the next opportunity. My current team is Shingen, Tsuki, Tish, Sol and Michael. I also activate both Michael and Shingen's DATA buff on turn one. It's fairly rare that Tsuki isn't at 90 for the 4T burst (less than ~5% of the time) and it's usually because I hit a streak of DA's instead of TA's. Takeminakata makes the team faster and hit harder, but I lose the full 50% DEF down in that setup, so I'm moving more to running Tsuki than Take at the moment. Make sure whoever you pick for the that second slot gets all DATA items you can give her. Right now Tsuki has, I think, around 7% total DATA from accessories since all three are just that. It's not enough, but it helps in sustaining the 4T burst on a slow Hime until we get the Tiara bonus unlocked.

If you're running Joan for sustain in a Rag fights, then, by all means, TA buff her. You're not trying to over power the Rag anymore and are looking to contribute through the fight.

Yes, but remember every time she gets her BG 20, she is also nuking for 3-3.5x, that's on top of her regular attack, so that's like much better than even Take's TA. Also, depending on whether you can spare Tish's heal on Lugh or have Sol on your team, Lugh can in theory keep it up much longer than Take. You can also 'store' Lugh's BG for 1T and do double nuke/BG the next turn, whereas Take's TA is wasted if you burst on a turn where her TA is still up (I want Lugh so badly )

Certainly not in the realm of Tish or Mike, yes, but they have different roles, and ideally you want all of them - Mike just speeds everyone up, Tish is fast and speeds up bottleneck himes, Lugh/Take/Vishnu are faster and makes it easy to accommodate a slow hime (Arty / LT / Sol / Eros / Raphy / whatever you have/need for the content you're facing.)

Don't worry bud... next Miracle Ticket! Won't be more than 3/4 months. Not that long at all.


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

So this isn't the correct burst order for your team. Let's talk fast team bursting. For Thunder Ult (where you absolutely have to burst on turn 3), your favored team is Shingen, Take/Art/Tsuki, Tishtrya, Sol, Michael. You want to use Trish's TA buff on the first Hime slot if it's not Take. If it's Take, you TA buff Sol. On turn 2 you use Michael's burst buff and Shingen's Encourage Inspiration buff so that you can then push the Thunder Ult into stun on turn 3 (3T burst). You can then move to a 4T burst cycle (burst on turn 4) for the rest of the combat as you get the free stun round and solo kill the Ult. Provisional Forest in used on the second full burst, if available and needed, but never on the first. For me it almost never gets activated as it slows the team down too much.

Sorry for another necro, but I'm still returning to this and especially position Mike should be on. Granted, I don't have Tish nor Shingen, so my burst aren't that fast, but still the general logic should be the same. So the question is - why is Mike on last spot, instead of first (outside of Take scenario)? While my initial thought was to indeed have Mike on last spot - so that the +20 BG from her burst doesn't get wasted, but giving it some second thought - in general it should not.

If Mike is on first Hime position, it allows you to FB when second hime is at 60%. This allows us to land a first FB faster. Now, if Mike is last, she instantly provides +20 to all characters for the next burst... But if she is in front of them, they don't need the immediate +20, as they will just get it during FB from Mike bursting before them. Finally, Mike also has a built-in double attack, which may sometimes save the FB, should the TA from Tish not proc...

One scenario where I could see the benefit of having her on last spot is if you are afraid she will die. That way, the +20 BG from her burst is already on other characters and will not be lost. It would also make more difference in some abstract scenario, where she would solo burst between FBs. At last spot she only needs 60%, she already gets 20% from her burst, maybe you also have some +BG abilities ready, so refilling for FB would not be out of question, but the odds are that by the time Mike is ready for her solo burst, some other hime is at 100% already, so you can't burst anyway.

So, TL;DR; - I see Michael on last spot in a lot of comments / screenshots. What am I missing here, that makes people chose this instead of placing her first?

Originally Posted by Crow

So, TL;DR; - I see Michael on last spot in a lot of comments / screenshots. What am I missing here, that makes people chose this instead of placing her first?

Nothing. None whatsoever.

There is nothing you need to worry about Mike's position other than her speed relative to the other members of your team. There had been this misconception (for god knows what reason) that Mike should be placed last so that the team may get a head start next cycle, but this is only half true, as people have forgotten that she also carries the speed of those placed behind her.

Nice. You've managed to figure out the best correct answer for your superstition *pachi pachi pachi*