Thread: Consolidated Light Team Topic

Interesting, since Medea does not seem to have any BG generation. Does that mean that fast bursting (for example 3T cycle) is no longer played? But can she even burst on 5T cycle, without big help?

Originally Posted by Crow

Interesting, since Medea does not seem to have any BG generation. Does that mean that fast bursting (for example 3T cycle) is no longer played? But can she even burst on 5T cycle, without big help?

Haven't tried her myself, but my understanding is that she's basically the same speed as Solomon, so yeah, need a lot of outside help to burst fast (FLB Iris glaive helps there if you're lucky enough to get it. EDIT: don't do this, see post below) Medea has insane nukes though, so for stuff like tower it doesn't matter too much that you're not bursting super fast (can only use Mike AW once every 6 floors anyway, and should only save the harder floors for off-element clears.) I'm not sure if ppl use her for MVP racing in rags, maybe if it's super crowded during BT, otherwise I thought Hector is more favored for MVP racing but I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

FLB Iris glaive helps there if you're lucky enough to get it.

Ok, so more experienced players have pointed out to me that Medea's weapon retains Solomon key's useful skill of converting her first nuke to AoE and also changes her unimpressive ability dmg burst effect to the very useful skill CD reduction, so using anything other than her soul weapon is not advised.

I will cross-link mr dreamlitz post from other topic to bump this thread, as it still contains relevant information for people intending to main light. The current iteration over recommended himes is HERE: https://harem-battle.club/kamihime-p...tml#post151760

At the same time I would like to use this opportunity to ask question, about how do people form teams with Lugh / Iris / Tish? I have managed to collect all three, but each composition feels somewhat clunky.

Likely every team will want Mike AW. From there one could add all three fast himes, but it just lacks the sustain that Sol brings along. Especially when going for light guardian, the cleanse is simply needed. Light Rag also lasts long enough, that the sustain from Sol adds a lot. Finally, with Lugh and Tish both dealing damage to themselves, going that way doesn't feel great for anything that doesn't end in few turns.

Assuming we bring along Sol, we now need to kick out one of the fast himes. Tishtrya really helps Iris. Not only she allows her to burst early, before she stacks her sword effects, but also she helps her to land her debuff. And without landing the debuff, Iris is just inferior to Vishnu. However, Iris+Tish means we leave behind our strongest nuker, Lugh.

Going Lugh + Tish means you only have a single strong attacker, only -35% def, and if at any point you want to start to auto, you suddenly kill yourself. Finally bringing Lugh without Tish against anything that actually deals damage, makes it very hard to keep Lugh alive.

Finall thought is - I wonder why there is so little love for Visnhu. She can consistently burst every third turn, deals a lot of autoattack damage even if she looses occasionally her stacks, has a ton of self-sustain between burst barrier and third skill. With 65k attack I currently have (and no fluffy) she bursts for around 50% more than fully stacked Iris. With that she outdamages and outsustains Iris, while being more consistent, provided someone else in the raid brings def debuffs. Dreamlitz mentioned, that her big problem is continuous damage, but at the same time this is even bigger problem for her main competitor - Lugh. My only quarrel with Visnhu is that you need to fire two skills every turn. While this is useful during AQ7, I have lost MVPs multiple times, because I need to take two 'rounds' just loading her skills, while other participants deal damage (wish we could just queue skills instead of staring 10 seconds at 'connecting' after each click...). Having said that - why is she not considered a top tier anymore?

Originally Posted by Crow

At the same time I would like to use this opportunity to ask question, about how do people form teams with Lugh / Iris / Tish? I have managed to collect all three, but each composition feels somewhat clunky.

I think ppl should just use what works for them in general, since your grid and the ppl you raid with will have a big influence on what works or not. That being said, I will give my take here for reference, which is based largely on my experience but also on other players I've talked to:

Likely every team will want Mike AW. From there one could add all three fast himes, but it just lacks the sustain that Sol brings along.

If I'm racing, I always bring Mike AW, in fact, the only time I don't bring her is for those use SR/R only missions for events. Faster burst cycling is just too much dmg to forego. As for Sol AW, I always bring her unless I'm racing in a crowded raid where you can only get 2-3 FB off before it ends. This is controversial, but I would argue there's actually a middle path between full glass cannon and Sol, which is Raphy AW - her stalling can give you more turns to get off an extra FB, which can be worth more than bringing another attacker if you only have enough time to get 2-3 FB off and Raphy is needed to buy you enough time for that last FB before you wipe. I used to do that for pre-nerf LRag, Raphy gives me 1-2T more before my team starts falling apart, and that was usually enough to get off another FB.

Assuming we bring along Sol, we now need to kick out one of the fast himes.

It shouldn't be necessary to bring 3 fast himes - with Mike AW, the last slot only requires 40 BG to burst (this works even if Mike AW is in the last slot - she'll start 20 BG ahead for the 2nd burst onwards.) Alternating Mike AW and Shingen BG gain skill effectively cuts that to only 20 BG, so it's basically guaranteed 3T burst even if you stick a R in the last slot. With tiara sets, fluffy/Shingen/Mike DATA buffs, last slot can easily be on 2T burst cycle. For the second last slot, you only need 30 BG, which can easily do 2-3T burst cycle, too, so you typically only need two fast himes for the first two slots behind the soul. If you want to go for more 2T than 3T cycling, I would wait for Eros AW as only Lugh can somewhat consistently hit 2T burst.

Going Lugh + Tish means you only have a single strong attacker, only -35% def, and if at any point you want to start to auto, you suddenly kill yourself. Finally bringing Lugh without Tish against anything that actually deals damage, makes it very hard to keep Lugh alive.

A few things here:

• You can usually rely on others to debuff if you're MVP-racing. If you're solo-ing, your comp needs to be sturdy enough to work without debuffs anyway since most rags/guards are debuff resistant.
• If you AAB, just don't bring Lugh. Tish is actually ok to AAB if you bring Sol with you - Tish only consumes 6.67% of her health on average per turn from ability use, versus 15% for Lugh.
• If you expect a lengthier battle, try Lugh, Tish, Mike AW, Sol AW. Sol can heal Lugh for up to 10.8k 'cos of Lugh's passive. The regen from Sol also doubles on Lugh and is actually quite nice for keeping her alive. I usually save Tish's heal as an emergency button for when Lugh (or anyone else) gets hit.
• It's always an option to just let Lugh die and a sub to come on.
• Also, I have to disagree that Tish is not a strong attacker (forget how the dev classify himes.) Tish is worth a lot just from faster team burst cycling, and her TA/atk buffs actually increase dmg by a lot, too. I've made this case before at various times and places, but I'll lay out some math again here, 'cos I often see ppl making similar arguments to erroneously conclude that Hercules is better than Shingen or Cu is better than Aether etc. for total dmg:
  
  • Burst cycling:
    
    • Assume you DA every other turn on average, such that your regular attack is 1.5x base dmg or 7.5x for the whole team per turn
    • Also assume single-target FB without PF or exceed and off element with all SSR, then FB is 5x5x1.5 = 37.5x. Then if Tish reduces your FB from every 5T to every 4T instead, your average per turn dmg goes from (4*7.5+37.5)/5T = 13.5x to (3*7.5+37.5)/4T = 15x, so Tish boosts dmg by 1.5x on average per turn just from faster burst cycling.
    • For reference, most nukes work out to be 1-1.25x per turn if you divide the multiplier by CD and don't hit cap. It's usually lower 'cos you should start to hit cap around your power level.
    • Also note that this is pretty much the lower bound - the dmg improvement goes much higher if you go from 4T to 3T FB and if you have exceed in your grid (for reference, going from 4T to 3T with 120% exceed in grid (e.g. 3 UE axes) gives a 3.25x per turn improvement.)
    • While I'm at it, it's worth reiterating that this is why Mike AW is so valuable as she can single-handedly cut your team burst cycle by 2T or more, and give some team-wide buffs on top to make the bursts even more powerful.
  • Extra damage from buffs:
    
    • Assume 150% assault from grid to make the math cleaner
    • Assume 4T burst cycle and 1.5x per normal attack to be consistent with above, then each hime's per turn dmg averages to (3*1.5x+7.5)/4T = 3x per turn
    • Tish's 50% atk buff increases two hime's dmg by 20% for 5/6T and the 50% TA effectively works out to be an extra 1x of NAtk for 5/6T, so the improved dmg is now (3x+1x*3/4T NAtk)*(1+20%)*5/6T +3x*1/6T = 4.25x = 1.25x improvement for one hime, or 2.5x total for two himes. It can be quite a bit less if the himes don't burst with the atk buff up, but on average it should work out to that ballpark.

I wonder why there is so little love for Visnhu.

I like Vishnu a lot. I actually used her during the first dummy 'cos I didn't have Lugh or Iris back then. If you want to comfortably AAB AQ7, it's also either her or Iris 'cos you need to use an ability every turn and I personally use Vishnu for that 'cos she's faster and can hit harder more reliably as AAB can't get Iris on 3T burst all the time (I pair Vishnu with light Athena, so Vishnu rarely loses her buffs.)

For MVP-racing and dummy though, Vishnu usually loses out for several reasons:

• No debuffs - you mentioned that Iris' debuff can miss, yes, but with Vishnu, it's the equivalent to guaranteed miss 'cos she doesn't bring any at all
• No utility - speed and power isn't everything, Sol AW usually make it on my teams 'cos of the utility she brings, Vishnu provides none
• Too many other fast himes - Vishnu is fast, but not like Lugh fast where she can burst on her own and still FB without slowing down the overall team burst cycle; for just a regular fast-enough himes to make 3T burst though, there's plenty of competition, namely Tish, Iris, re-balanced Arty and depending on which slot you put her in, Frey might even be fast enough, and all of those himes bring something else to the table besides speed and dmg
• Weak against DoT - that means she's a bad match against DUlt and DRag, making her critical buffs useful only in Aratron outside of events

Dreamlitz mentioned, that her big problem is continuous damage

I don't remember saying that about Vishnu, sounds like something I would say about Takeminakata though... I might have been referring to Vishnu's buffs expiring after 5T, but you can restack them again. Vishnu is the most consistently fast light hime - short of exhaustion or ability seal, it's guaranteed 20 BG gain per turn with no conditions.

I have lost MVPs multiple times, because I need to take two 'rounds' just loading her skills, while other participants deal damage (wish we could just queue skills instead of staring 10 seconds at 'connecting' after each click...)

When you're in a raid like that, you might have better luck with less clicky himes like Arty or rely on echo instead of nukes like Frey. Also, there is a partial solution to queuing skills - have all the himes that are AAB-friendly lined up behind the soul, then press reload as soon as the last AAB-friendly hime has used all her skills. I do this on my Herc build - I want all of Herc and Mike's skills used, so I put Mike in 1st slot, AAB, reload when Mike is done. I do that every 7T 'cos most of their skills have 7T CD. AAB often nukes before buffing for Herc, and depending on your comp, you might be forced to put himes faster than Mike behind Mike, so it's not optimal, but it sure does save me a lot of screen staring and waiting.

TL;DR you don't bring both Lugh and Iris you bring Lugh OR Iris.

AAB team: Iris, Tish, Mike, and Sol
non-AAB team, MVP snipe: Lugh, Tish, Mike, and Sol

Those are usually the standard with Tish lances and Vishnu glaives (as many as possible).


Dejnov.

Thank you very much for replies and especially dreamlitz for putting so much effort into clarifications. On the 'continuous damage' for Vishnu, I meant when she is on the receiving end.

You mentioned that Iris' debuff can miss, yes, but with Vishnu, it's the equivalent to guaranteed miss 'cos she doesn't bring any at all

If this was merely a miss it would be ok. However, it is also -20 BG on a char you want to start bursting as soon as possible. A lot of times it is a question for me - burst on t3 or debuff. I could use Tish buff on her to make sure I have enough BG for both, but than Mike is too slow. Perhpas should have mentioned I don't have Shingen yet ><.

Also, I have learned the hard way, that Sol echo healing overwrites the 10 turn regen from normal accessory set. So, here is a warning for anyone intending to burn your precious magnas on her for that purpose...

For now, I'm comparing the Lugh/Iris, Tish, Mike, Sol to see what works best for me. Thanks again for help.

Originally Posted by Crow

Also, I have learned the hard way, that Sol echo healing overwrites the 10 turn regen from normal accessory set. So, here is a warning for anyone intending to burn your precious magnas on her for that purpose...

Magnas aren't wasted, since they will allow you to use the Tiara set bonus. Which is really the only acceptable set bonus in the game, since it is so stupidly overpowered combined to the rest of the sets.

Also, as for Regen, there is only one frame of it ever. Even Eidolons will overwrite Regen. So it being overwritten is no surprise.

Have several good SSR himes but not sure what the best team I can build with them is.
All non-SSR souls are unlocked. Would also love advice on which SSR soul to unlock first.

My SSR light himes:
Michael (awakened)
Sol (awakened)
Athena (Holy Armor Warrior)
TishTrya
Iris - recently obtained
Artemis (Moonlight Profusion) - recently obtained
Shamash
Shiva (Purifying Rod)

My current main team is Michael+Tishtrya+Artemis+Sol with Arthur+Provisional Forest, but I see on the boards that Iris and Artemis are highly recommended. I don't see Athena mentioned that much, but I find that without her my team dies too quickly on harder bosses. Any advice welcome.