Thread: Alternative to total power for evaluating a stats stick eidolon

Originally Posted by Tanukimo

Would have been interesting to see the results for gacha eidos too.

Kinda slow at work today, so I decided to do this. Gacha eidos actually turned out to be pretty interesting, though I'm not sure if there's much practical applications to this:



I distinguished between eidolons released before 100% (green squares) and after (blue circles). The dotted purple line is my best shot of a best fit frontier through only the green squares excluding kaisers and red line is the best fit frontier for everything excluding kaisers and mythical beasts (won't be out until next year for us.) There are several interesting observations here:

1. The addition of 100%+ eidolons actually pushed out the frontier noticeably as seen by the difference between the purple and red line.
1a. Kirin and Belial are the only 100% eidolons that are not on or close to the new frontier (red line.)
1b. Huanglong and Hecatonchires are the only non-p2w eidolons that are actually closer to the new than old frontier (looks more like it is part of the red rather than purple line.)
2. The 120% (140% eventually) eidolons are all between the old and new frontier (i.e. stats are better than old gacha eidolons but worst than the 100%.)
3. With the exception of fluffy and Anubis, all blue dots have comparatively low hp (all below 700.)
4. Both frontiers have more favorable atk/hp trade ratio than the one I estimated for event eidolons (purple is about 2 atk per hp, red is about 3 atk per hp, event eidolon is about 3.5 atk per hp.)

On point 4, it is important to note that ALL non-p2w gacha eidolons are above the event eidolon frontier:



In above chart, green squares are non-p2w gacha eidos with purple dotted frontier, blue circles are event eidos with red frontier.

Corollary

1. If you're f2p or dolphin, none of this is relevant to you, since it's not like you'll have a bunch of MLB gacha ediolons sitting around to play with.
2. If you're a whale, none of this is relevant to you, since you should go for kaisers (or mythical beasts when they're out) if you want stats sticks (they are literally off-the-chart - I had to change the axes specifically to accommodate them.)
3. If you're a chubby dolphin/some other large-but-not-too-large marine animal, this MIGHT be relevant to you:
3a. Rule-of-thumb - use as many MLB gacha eidolons as you can, as they're all better value than even the best event eidolons.
3b. If you can't use all MLB gacha eidolons 'cos you need certain actives, certain elements or what not, your best bet is to get as much hp from gacha eidolons and get atk from event eidolons - it is 'cheaper' to get hp from gacha eidos (roughly 2:1 trade vs 3.5:1 for event eidolons.) For example, if you're using Behemoth and Azathoth and you really need to add barrier as an active, use Tiamat instead of Python and kick Azathoth instead of Behemoth.
3c. Huanglong and Hecatonchires are the best value for you if you want high hp stats sticks. If you want even higher hp, Behemoth is the best gacha non-p2w.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

A similar slope also holds for weapons within their quality type. I did something similar awhile ago and noticed that all weapons released have a similar curve depending on their accepted power level. Different weapon grades have different slopes (SRs are below what you're quoting, while SSRs are a bit above).

That is interesting. Aren't most weapons between like 100-200 hp-ish though?

Originally Posted by Slashley

So, I'll say it again: As soon as you get a full MLB set of Eidolons, HP shouldn't be an issue. If it is, you're going to need to wait for Assault/HP double-skill weapon to really make a difference.

Sometimes there's a drought of good weapons though. For light, the next assault/defender weapon is Sphinx reprint like 4 months from now... I don't want to wait that long, lol, so I try to tinker with what I have. I managed to boost my base hp from 8k to 9k-ish and base atk only dropped from around 51k to 49k-ish once I realized I was using sub-optimal eidos. It's not earth-shattering, but enough to make a lot of my battles (especially AAB ones) clear with some cushion as opposed to a nail-biter every time/outright wiped occasionally.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I found that the on-element defense SR was actually giving me less damage output than the off-element substitute and it was sometimes giving me less damage than the full on-element grid.

Actually, you don't even need phantom weapons for this to happen. I used rainbow grids a lot for my f2p accounts during their infancy for this reason (put in whatever advent and UE weapons I had regardless of element instead of using SRs.) Defender weapons give zero assault value, so replacing it with higher stats weapon will automatically boosts its dmg. On the hp side, if your base hp is low, 13% defender doesn't do you much good, and having a +99 off-element weapon can often offset the defender value effect (e.g. at base 5k hp, dropping 1 M defender weapon loses you 650 hp, and a +99 FLB weapon can easily have 200-300 more hp than SR; if you still have other defender weapons left on the grid, that 200-300 translates to even more, so you may only end up losing a couple hundred hp or so.)

What I have in my grids is usually a couple of zero or one star assault/skill on-element SSR weapons that I've been substituting with the above mentioned Michael lance (to complete the phantom effect). The base zero or 1 star SSR usually provides around 10 to 13% additional character assault, while also having a base assault of around 1400 atk.

I think what's happening here is that you're kicking off an on-element low-stat assault weapon with a high-stat off-element, but also activating the phantom effect - the phantom assault from lance equals or exceeds the assault lost from replacing the on-element, and the stats from the off-element exceeds the on-element, so every component of the dmg calc is actually going up.

However, when you do this with a second replacement, the assault value goes down with no offsetting increases (since phantom lance skill has already been activated by the previous replacement.) The raw atk is still going up, so the question is whether the % increase in raw atk exceeds the % decrease in assault or not. The calculation is actually not hard to do, just pulling all the data together is a little tedious (need the exact assault value of the grid and base atk of all the himes accounting for weapon preferences as well - 20% boost from favored weapons.) Generally though, this is not a favorable trade at all unless your on-element weapons are just really bad (which they sound like they are in your case, lol, no offense meant to your water grid... My water grid sucks, too, so...)

Couple of quick questions/comments on your post Dreamlitz:

A) What is a mythical beast? I haven't heard of that Eidolon option.

B) I don't understand your corollary 3b example. Can you explain it in more depth/differently?

C) While weapons are in the 100/200 range for hitpoints they do follow the same rule you've outlined above. It's usually less noticeable since they're working from a lower basis.

D) I like the terms krill (f2p), dolphin (occasional spending) and whale (p2w) myself.

E) What I do like about the bump in phantom weapon effect (and this can be had by any assault phantom weapon) is that it eliminates the amount of unique weapons in my non-main grids. That allows for me to maintain their power, while reducing the amount of weapons I potentially have to raise. I can also afford to be more choosy on what I FLB; I'm looking for either Hime or the Assault UEs to break as I can only have 4 non-lance weapons in a phantom lance grid. This means that low return FLB or even skill leveling SSRs is not on the action list.

F) My water and wind grids absolutely suck, and I'm okay with that! I'm a Light/Dark main and those only exist just for tower/dummy events. (Though my water team can now solo Fire Ult Catastrophe so they are growing.)

G) Bricking Kaisers (any element) is an actual useful choice if you don't have a p2w Eidolon...



Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Couple of quick questions/comments on your post Dreamlitz:

A) What is a mythical beast? I haven't heard of that Eidolon option.

B) I don't understand your corollary 3b example. Can you explain it in more depth/differently?

C) While weapons are in the 100/200 range for hitpoints they do follow the same rule you've outlined above. It's usually less noticeable since they're working from a lower basis.

D) I like the terms krill (f2p), dolphin (occasional spending) and whale (p2w) myself.

E) What I do like about the bump in phantom weapon effect (and this can be had by any assault phantom weapon) is that it eliminates the amount of unique weapons in my non-main grids. That allows for me to maintain their power, while reducing the amount of weapons I potentially have to raise. I can also afford to be more choosy on what I FLB; I'm looking for either Hime or the Assault UEs to break as I can only have 4 non-lance weapons in a phantom lance grid. This means that low return FLB or even skill leveling SSRs is not on the action list.

F) My water and wind grids absolutely suck, and I'm okay with that! I'm a Light/Dark main and those only exist just for tower/dummy events. (Though my water team can now solo Fire Ult Catastrophe so they are growing.)

G) Bricking Kaisers (any element) is an actual useful choice if you don't have a p2w Eidolon...



Dejnov.

A) I'm not sure if 'mythical beast' is the universally accepted term for these, but what I'm referring to are these:



Highlights of these are:

i. Their passive is elemental resistance, up to 50% at MLB, so if you go into battle with these as your main and you have a friend with a MLB one, too, you get 100% elemental resistance O.O Obviously you lose a lot of dmg that way, but sounds like easy solo for stuff with no time limit. AAB AQ100 will be no problem for whales
EDIT: Ok, turns out this is only STATUS resistance, so nowhere near as great as I thought...
ii. They have incredibly strong active abilities, but can only be used ONCE per battle (e.g. White Tiger's active is 100% lightning atk up at MLB. EDIT: actually, if I'm not misreading things, the 100% atk up is in its own multiplier, so just outright double the dmg... Still subject to usual caps though.)
iii. They are off-the-chart stats sticks like kaisers, but trade off hp for more atk relative to kaisers

You can read more (translate google translate) about them at the JP wiki.

B) Let's say you need barrier (to counter doom for example.) I don't think any gacha eidolons has barrier as an active, so you're forced to use an event eidolon, which automatically means you're going to lose some stats. Now you can use Tiamat or Python for barrier. You also need to kick one of your gacha eidolon to accommodate the event eidolon. What I'm saying is that to minimize stats loss, you should pick the high atk event eidolon and kick the high atk gacha eidolon in these situations (so pick Tiamat, kick Azathoth.) If you do the reverse (pick Python, kick Behemoth) you will lose more stats than necessary to accommodate the active that you want with whatever hp level you are targeting.

Now, the astute reader will point out that I can just cleanse doom with Behemoth and dun even need to add a barrier eido, but let's pretend we need that cleanse for something else... I AM sort of reaching for practical applications btw, which is why I didn't even bother with the gacha analysis until ppl shown interest in it...

C) Got it.

D) Lol, what's between dolphin and whales though? You need to be a big spender but not big enough to whale for kaisers for this analysis to be useful. Maybe cursed whale? Whale with abysmal luck so all you have are non-kaisers non-p2w eidos to work with... I'm not good at naming things...

E) I understand the motivation. Outside of tower and those event missions with 'clear this battle with some random element team (for puny rewards)', is there any reason not to use your light/dark team? I still only have a phantom axe btw, so I haven't spent much time thinking about this (I think it's been almost 200 rags since i got the axe though, RNG should give me a break >.>)

F) Wait, can't you also off-element for dummy? I hit harder with my light team than some other team with elemental advantage... If they ever have multi-target dummies, then maybe the burst streak can make up for it, but single-target, my plan was just to use light all the way...

G) Agreed. With my luck though, gacha will probably drop me a p2w once I brick a kaiser... Although, if I can bait the gacha like that, it'll still be worth it...

Originally Posted by Dejnov

-- I only know when I've been building these off-element lance grids (as that is my only maxed phantom weapon atm) in weaker element grids, my damage can go up. -- When I did the comparison, I found that the on-element defense SR was actually giving me less damage output than the off-element substitute and it was sometimes giving me less damage than the full on-element grid.--

Well, yes? There's a reason why pure Defender weapons are frowned upon generally. As said by dreamlitz, they don't actually give you any attack outside of their base Atk. So when replaced by a higher base Atk weapon... ... of course it's more damage. But, it's also pretty certain that a slvl20 Disaster SR Assault weapon would do MORE damage than your off-element FLB Lance.

However, the part that messes things up here is the Phantom Lance. Which offers you:
1. 16% Assault
2. 16% HP
3. Lots of base Atk bonus
Which is no joke. If you replace one on-element Assault weapon with a off-element Lance to activate Phantom Lance, then you lost #1. But fair enough, you still have #2 and #3. Then you can replace one on-element HP weapon with a off-element Lance, and you've lost #2 too. But hey, you still have #3, so you're STILL in the positive.

However, these kinds of things kinda drop dead once your Grid starts to improve. Like, when you have a full Grid of dual-skills (SRs or SSRs), then you already lost both #1 and #2 from a single weapon. So, again: _might_ hold water with Lance Grids. But won't be ANY good past extremely early game.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

--
i. Their passive is elemental resistance, up to 50% at MLB, so if you go into battle with these as your main and you have a friend with a MLB one, too, you get 100% elemental resistance O.O --

Hah, if only. It's 50% STATUS resistance. In other words, as useless as Kaiser passive.

Another thing of note on those things. The CD on the (one-time per battle) active gets reduced as the Eidolon gains more LBs. So unlike Kaisers, these guys are SIGNIFICANTLY worse for those who can't brick them to MLB.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

F) Wait, can't you also off-element for dummy? I hit harder with my light team than some other team with elemental advantage... If they ever have multi-target dummies, then maybe the burst streak can make up for it, but single-target, my plan was just to use light all the way...

To my understanding, the Dummy is a different element every day. So it starts as Fire probably and cycles through all the elements per day. Expect Dark on day 6 I guess?

It's sad because I don't see any way to compete for any kind of ranks without Michael AW and Fluffy. The top50 is probably going to be taken by players who have both of those.

Originally Posted by Slashley

However, the part that messes things up here is the Phantom Lance. Which offers you:
1. 16% Assault
2. 16% HP
3. Lots of base Atk bonus
Which is no joke. If you replace one on-element Assault weapon with a off-element Lance to activate Phantom Lance, then you lost #1. But fair enough, you still have #2 and #3. Then you can replace one on-element HP weapon with a off-element Lance, and you've lost #2 too. But hey, you still have #3, so you're STILL in the positive.

However, these kinds of things kinda drop dead once your Grid starts to improve. Like, when you have a full Grid of dual-skills (SRs or SSRs), then you already lost both #1 and #2 from a single weapon. So, again: _might_ hold water with Lance Grids. But won't be ANY good past extremely early game.Hah, if only. It's 50% STATUS resistance. In other words, as useless as Kaiser passive.

Another thing of note on those things. The CD on the (one-time per battle) active gets reduced as the Eidolon gains more LBs. So unlike Kaisers, these guys are SIGNIFICANTLY worse for those who can't brick them to MLB.To my understanding, the Dummy is a different element every day. So it starts as Fire probably and cycles through all the elements per day. Expect Dark on day 6 I guess?

It's sad because I don't see any way to compete for any kind of ranks without Michael AW and Fluffy. The top50 is probably going to be taken by players who have both of those.

I agree that it's possibly phantom lance (and also by default phantom hammer) that really benefits from this situation. For wind and water, I'll take all the help that I can get!

I'm not so sure that immunity to status effect is to be frowned upon. By far the biggest thing that can destroy a fast burst team, is fucking with your ability to DATA or burst when you want to. These might not actually be totally useless passives. Don't know yet as you'll probably lose a decent amount of elemental (character) attack to field one (or two) that it means squat. Will see when they come out.

I'm wondering what you mean when you state that only those with Michael AW and Fluffy would be in the top50. That's only 1 element and you get into the ranking by all element's damage not just your light team, or am I missing something about the context in how these competitions are set up?


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

--
I'm not so sure that immunity to status effect is to be frowned upon.--

Hey, not being debuffed is amazing. But this isn't immunity, and it simply isn't worth the loss of damage output even if it was. Unless you're literally fighting Medusa-like content.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I'm wondering what you mean when you state that only those with Michael AW and Fluffy would be in the top50. That's only 1 element and you get into the ranking by all element's damage not just your light team, or am I missing something about the context in how these competitions are set up?--

I haven't looked into how the scoring works at all, but I'd assume that you get your top score, and that's your score. And what does by far the most damage over a time period of 15 turns? Michael AW with Fluffy.

You simply cannot compete with people who do one (or more) full Bursts than what you did, even more so if you don't have a P2W Eidolon and they do.

Originally Posted by Slashley

To my understanding, the Dummy is a different element every day. So it starts as Fire probably and cycles through all the elements per day. Expect Dark on day 6 I guess?

nah, they release the elements in a random order, at least they did on last two i ran, so can't actually speak for the first one. oh actually i had the JP wiki page open earlier :facepalm:

Day of the week Contents
Mon-Tue Lightning
Wed-Thur Water wind
Fri-Sat Light darkness
Sunday All attributes

Thanks for adding the section on gacha eidolons. Again, seeing Anubis at the top of the curve surprised me since if you look at her stat total (hp + attack) it's barely better than Tiamat but 900 hp is no joke. Before seeing this thread I'd usually judge eidolons based on stat total so it's nice to learn that stat total isn't everything. For example, Girimekhala has a slightly higher total than Huanglong (2982 vs 2922) but your analysis shows that Huanglong is basically a thunder Hecatonchires, which is a pretty big deal. It was also surprising to see that the new 120% eidolons aren't better than the old 100%s stat-wise. Anyways, this will be a nice reference when considering the trade-offs to switching sub eidolons.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Hah, if only. It's 50% STATUS resistance. In other words, as useless as Kaiser passive.

My bad, this is why it's dangerous to try to translate google translate... I edited my post so as not to give others a false impression.

Originally Posted by Tanukimo

Thanks for adding the section on gacha eidolons. Again, seeing Anubis at the top of the curve surprised me since if you look at her stat total (hp + attack) it's barely better than Tiamat but 900 hp is no joke. Before seeing this thread I'd usually judge eidolons based on stat total so it's nice to learn that stat total isn't everything. For example, Girimekhala has a slightly higher total than Huanglong (2982 vs 2922) but your analysis shows that Huanglong is basically a thunder Hecatonchires, which is a pretty big deal. It was also surprising to see that the new 120% eidolons aren't better than the old 100%s stat-wise. Anyways, this will be a nice reference when considering the trade-offs to switching sub eidolons.

Glad you find it helpful!

Whats the difference between the total power on the main screen and the power on the friend request profile page?