Thread: Alternative to total power for evaluating a stats stick eidolon

Originally Posted by Tanukimo

Would have been interesting to see the results for gacha eidos too.

Kinda slow at work today, so I decided to do this. Gacha eidos actually turned out to be pretty interesting, though I'm not sure if there's much practical applications to this:



I distinguished between eidolons released before 100% (green squares) and after (blue circles). The dotted purple line is my best shot of a best fit frontier through only the green squares excluding kaisers and red line is the best fit frontier for everything excluding kaisers and mythical beasts (won't be out until next year for us.) There are several interesting observations here:

1. The addition of 100%+ eidolons actually pushed out the frontier noticeably as seen by the difference between the purple and red line.
1a. Kirin and Belial are the only 100% eidolons that are not on or close to the new frontier (red line.)
1b. Huanglong and Hecatonchires are the only non-p2w eidolons that are actually closer to the new than old frontier (looks more like it is part of the red rather than purple line.)
2. The 120% (140% eventually) eidolons are all between the old and new frontier (i.e. stats are better than old gacha eidolons but worst than the 100%.)
3. With the exception of fluffy and Anubis, all blue dots have comparatively low hp (all below 700.)
4. Both frontiers have more favorable atk/hp trade ratio than the one I estimated for event eidolons (purple is about 2 atk per hp, red is about 3 atk per hp, event eidolon is about 3.5 atk per hp.)

On point 4, it is important to note that ALL non-p2w gacha eidolons are above the event eidolon frontier:



In above chart, green squares are non-p2w gacha eidos with purple dotted frontier, blue circles are event eidos with red frontier.

Corollary

1. If you're f2p or dolphin, none of this is relevant to you, since it's not like you'll have a bunch of MLB gacha ediolons sitting around to play with.
2. If you're a whale, none of this is relevant to you, since you should go for kaisers (or mythical beasts when they're out) if you want stats sticks (they are literally off-the-chart - I had to change the axes specifically to accommodate them.)
3. If you're a chubby dolphin/some other large-but-not-too-large marine animal, this MIGHT be relevant to you:
3a. Rule-of-thumb - use as many MLB gacha eidolons as you can, as they're all better value than even the best event eidolons.
3b. If you can't use all MLB gacha eidolons 'cos you need certain actives, certain elements or what not, your best bet is to get as much hp from gacha eidolons and get atk from event eidolons - it is 'cheaper' to get hp from gacha eidos (roughly 2:1 trade vs 3.5:1 for event eidolons.) For example, if you're using Behemoth and Azathoth and you really need to add barrier as an active, use Tiamat instead of Python and kick Azathoth instead of Behemoth.
3c. Huanglong and Hecatonchires are the best value for you if you want high hp stats sticks. If you want even higher hp, Behemoth is the best gacha non-p2w.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

A similar slope also holds for weapons within their quality type. I did something similar awhile ago and noticed that all weapons released have a similar curve depending on their accepted power level. Different weapon grades have different slopes (SRs are below what you're quoting, while SSRs are a bit above).

That is interesting. Aren't most weapons between like 100-200 hp-ish though?

Originally Posted by Slashley

So, I'll say it again: As soon as you get a full MLB set of Eidolons, HP shouldn't be an issue. If it is, you're going to need to wait for Assault/HP double-skill weapon to really make a difference.

Sometimes there's a drought of good weapons though. For light, the next assault/defender weapon is Sphinx reprint like 4 months from now... I don't want to wait that long, lol, so I try to tinker with what I have. I managed to boost my base hp from 8k to 9k-ish and base atk only dropped from around 51k to 49k-ish once I realized I was using sub-optimal eidos. It's not earth-shattering, but enough to make a lot of my battles (especially AAB ones) clear with some cushion as opposed to a nail-biter every time/outright wiped occasionally.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I found that the on-element defense SR was actually giving me less damage output than the off-element substitute and it was sometimes giving me less damage than the full on-element grid.

Actually, you don't even need phantom weapons for this to happen. I used rainbow grids a lot for my f2p accounts during their infancy for this reason (put in whatever advent and UE weapons I had regardless of element instead of using SRs.) Defender weapons give zero assault value, so replacing it with higher stats weapon will automatically boosts its dmg. On the hp side, if your base hp is low, 13% defender doesn't do you much good, and having a +99 off-element weapon can often offset the defender value effect (e.g. at base 5k hp, dropping 1 M defender weapon loses you 650 hp, and a +99 FLB weapon can easily have 200-300 more hp than SR; if you still have other defender weapons left on the grid, that 200-300 translates to even more, so you may only end up losing a couple hundred hp or so.)

What I have in my grids is usually a couple of zero or one star assault/skill on-element SSR weapons that I've been substituting with the above mentioned Michael lance (to complete the phantom effect). The base zero or 1 star SSR usually provides around 10 to 13% additional character assault, while also having a base assault of around 1400 atk.

I think what's happening here is that you're kicking off an on-element low-stat assault weapon with a high-stat off-element, but also activating the phantom effect - the phantom assault from lance equals or exceeds the assault lost from replacing the on-element, and the stats from the off-element exceeds the on-element, so every component of the dmg calc is actually going up.

However, when you do this with a second replacement, the assault value goes down with no offsetting increases (since phantom lance skill has already been activated by the previous replacement.) The raw atk is still going up, so the question is whether the % increase in raw atk exceeds the % decrease in assault or not. The calculation is actually not hard to do, just pulling all the data together is a little tedious (need the exact assault value of the grid and base atk of all the himes accounting for weapon preferences as well - 20% boost from favored weapons.) Generally though, this is not a favorable trade at all unless your on-element weapons are just really bad (which they sound like they are in your case, lol, no offense meant to your water grid... My water grid sucks, too, so...)