Thread: Kamihime - the journey of the first 2.5 years

Originally Posted by Geo

So I feel the toptier meta is more about whoever got the P2W than about who built the best grid or unlocked a certain Soul.

Actually, I think you may be overestimating the power of P2W eidos relative to grid. Everyone can get 45% event eidos and use a 100% friend (if you don't have 100% friends, 'reroll' your friend list until you get one for competitive stuff like tower.) 30% from soul weapon, so the difference between owning and not owning a P2W is about 20% difference in dmg. The difference between a 'meta' and non-meta grid can be much greater depending on how you define those terms, so I'll just point out the following rough observations:

• FLB-ing a weapon typically boosts its stats by around 10%, its assault by 30%+ (e.g. 21% vs 16% for large assault) and adds an entirely new skill, so going from full SSR to full FLB gives you enormous boosts in dmg and/or survivability
• Typical hime weapons have stats roughly 15%-20% higher than event weapons and may also have triple skills upon FLB, so if you go from full f2p grid to full whale grid, it is another noticeable jump in power
• Phantom grid of type matching the preference of your offensive himes/souls (e.g. for light it's lance or glaive, since Shingen, Lugh and Tish are lance users, and Hector, Iris, Vishnu are glaive users) is another noticeable boost in power (exact numbers are hard to calculate 'cos it depends on what you had to give up to make the grid and which himes you have.)

Anyway, tl;dr version is that having a well-planned grid is worth a lot more than a P2W eido. P2W eido is still a big deal, but you need a lot more than that if you're aiming for leader boards or something.

I recently got my first P2W and MLB-ed her right away, but I'm still nowhere near being able to outrace the top tier players for MVP in rags - my Shingen on manual lost to someone's Andro on AAB... Noodle on that a bit and think about how big a difference the grid must be making for that to be possible (for reference, I had 2 hime FLB and 4 event FLB in my grid, no phantom - not meta but not too terrible I think?)

The game is still plenty fun to me even if I can't outrace ppl though. This game is a long grind, so hopefully ppl are at least enjoying the journey of getting stronger over time and finding many fun moments like MVP-sniping top tier players while they're afk or got Niked =)

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- so the difference between owning and not owning a P2W is about 20% difference in dmg.

You make it sound like 20% difference in damage output is a small thing.

It is not.

How much more Assault do you need for a 20% boost once you have 9*16% = 144% Assault? Because you need to include base, the answer is you need to reach 205% Assault. Which you cannot reach even if you FLB'd ALL of those nine weapons, as 9*21% = 189% Assault. The only way it can be done is if you got TWO double Assault weapons in those nine FLBs.

So yeah, 20% is by no means a joke. It's a vast and huge bridge that one simply cannot cross.
EDIT: Oh hey, I just realized I calculated what it takes to drop 20% damage, not what it takes to increase by 20%. The actual number is ~193%. The point still stands though, you need ONE double Assault out of 9 FLBs to reach that gain!

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

--
Anyway, tl;dr version is that having a well-planned grid is worth a lot more than a P2W eido. P2W eido is still a big deal, but you need a lot more than that if you're aiming for leader boards or something.

Eeeeexcept that you're looking at it wrong. EVERYONE gets a good Grid, it simply takes a long, long time. Even longer if you started later in the game because fuck you, you don't deserve double FLB weapons from early Advents. Or good weapons at all from Union events now. Nonetheless, eventually, EVENTUALLY you will get a good Grid.

But eventually? Eventually, you are NOT guaranteed to find a P2W Eidolon. Ever. Are you likely to, if you play the game for many years? Yes. Are you guaranteed to get one? Not by a long shot.
And sure, DMM lately sold the old ones (the ones with the way shittier on-use (except Hraes) and notably less %), but it's a whopping 100 bucks. That's not something everyone can drop on a game.

Originally Posted by Slashley

You make it sound like 20% difference in damage output is a small thing.

It is not.

How much more Assault do you need for a 20% boost once you have 9*16% = 144% Assault? Because you need to include base, the answer is you need to reach 205% Assault. Which you cannot reach even if you FLB'd ALL of those nine weapons, as 9*21% = 189% Assault. The only way it can be done is if you got TWO double Assault weapons in those nine FLBs.

I didn't mean to make it sound like it's no big deal, but I stand by my statement that the grid matters more:

FLB-ing increases your base stats as well, so if half your atk comes from your weapons, a 10% increase from base stats from FLB-ing all your weapons is a 5% increase in dmg - this will be multiplicative with the additional assault you get (as well as exceed and vigor.) The 205% assault (I actually got 193% but doesn't really matter) becomes around 179% to 190% depending on how you do your calc, which technically is feasible with full FLB. Also, assault isn't everything. Don't ignore things like exceed and vigor that might come as a second skill on FLB, exceed in particular matters a lot in late game when everyone has tiara sets and therefore short burst cycles. You should see a big change in dmg if you try doing dummy with and without exceed weapons (this isn't just about hitting cap either, exceed acts as a separate multiplier such that a single large FLB exceed boosts your burst dmg by 10%-ish if you're not using PF.)

Going from full SSR to full FLB grid should boost your dmg by 20%-ish just from base stats and assault gain, and much more when you include exceed and vigor even if we ignore endurance skills like defender and ascension. Put differently, someone with P2W eido with only a full SSR grid is not gonna be able to compete with a vet with a 45% eido but has a full or near-full FLB grid, even if they're all event FLBs and no phantoms.

Originally Posted by Slashley

So yeah, 20% is by no means a joke. It's a vast and huge bridge that one simply cannot cross.Eeeeexcept that you're looking at it wrong. EVERYONE gets a good Grid, it simply takes a long, long time. Even longer if you started later in the game because fuck you, you don't deserve double FLB weapons from early Advents. Or good weapons at all from Union events now. Nonetheless, eventually, EVENTUALLY you will get a good Grid.

But eventually? Eventually, you are NOT guaranteed to find a P2W Eidolon. Ever. Are you likely to, if you play the game for many years? Yes. Are you guaranteed to get one? Not by a long shot.

Actually, if we're talking about 'meta' grids, you most certainly are NOT guaranteed to end up with a 'meta' grid without paying since most of them involve bricking many dupes of certain hime or even draconic eye weapons. If we're talking about just a full FLB grid, sure, but everyone can also eventually farm the guardian eido, which can be quite powerful with a full FLB grid, meta or not.

Game progression isn't hinged on whether you have a P2W or not though, it just raises your ceiling and how quickly you can clear stuff, but that is true with any SSR you draw - if you draw good ones that work well together, you're suddenly more powerful. For complete f2p, you're never guaranteed any himes either regardless of how long you play (heck, even whales aren't guaranteed all the best himes, the number of mtix is limited after all.)

Originally Posted by Slashley

And sure, DMM lately sold the old ones (the ones with the way shittier on-use (except Hraes) and notably less %), but it's a whopping 100 bucks. That's not something everyone can drop on a game.

That's the cost of 2 mtix for something that is arguably more valuable than 2 mtix though. Yes, that is expensive for a lot of people but keeping up with the meta for a lot of games can get pretty expensive, not just KH. If you just want to continually improve your teams though, f2p is still viable.

Again, over time, you WILL get a full FLB Grid. Once you have a full FLB Grid, just how much do you need to get 20% more damage now? In other words:

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

I didn't mean to make it sound like it's no big deal, but I stand by my statement that the grid matters more:

FLB-ing increases your base stats as well, so if half your atk comes from your weapons, a 10% increase from base stats from FLB-ing all your weapons is a 5% increase in dmg - this will be multiplicative with the additional assault you get (as well as exceed and vigor.) The 205% assault (I actually got 193% but doesn't really matter) becomes around 179% to 190% depending on how you do your calc, which technically is feasible with full FLB. Also, assault isn't everything. Don't ignore things like exceed and vigor that might come as a second skill on FLB, exceed in particular matters a lot in late game when everyone has tiara sets and therefore short burst cycles. You should see a big change in dmg if you try doing dummy with and without exceed weapons (this isn't just about hitting cap either, exceed acts as a separate multiplier such that a single large FLB exceed boosts your burst dmg by 10%-ish if you're not using PF.)

Going from full SSR to full FLB grid should boost your dmg by 20%-ish just from base stats and assault gain, and much more when you include exceed and vigor even if we ignore endurance skills like defender and ascension. --

Once you have your Vigors and Exceeds and your 200% Assaults, do they diminish the value of a P2W? No, no they don't. On the contrary, ALL of this is further boosted by having a P2W Eidolon. This is why you're looking at it wrong.

Is having a Grid important? Of course it is. But that's not the point - the point is, YOU WILL GET YOUR GRID (unless you're a new player, in which case fuck you, free FLB Exceeds are not for you anymore). You will (probably) NOT GET a P2W Eidolon. That is simply an unsurmountable wall, a barrier that one simply cannot cross by their own. Unless you happen to get ludicrously lucky, or daddy owns some tropical islands.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Actually, if we're talking about 'meta' grids, you most certainly are NOT guaranteed to end up with a 'meta' grid --

There is no point in talking about omegaspacewhalefromanotherdimension levels of Grids. Is a Grid of 4-8 Marduk Hammers and 0-4 Raiko Hammers better than a Grid you get for free? Of course it is. Is it going to be 20%+ more damage than a FLB Grid you can get for free? ... probably not? You can do the maths if you want, I have made a damage calc exactly for that purpose and everything.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Game progression isn't hinged on whether you have a P2W or not though,--

I don't see how this a point either. You can literally go through all of the game progression with slvl1 Defender weapons and R Hime, depending on how you define progression (such as, playing through the storyline and completing raids events for the sidestories).

But that's not really what these forums are about. Or any other place as far as I know, since there is no juice to be had there - that's "once and done" stuff. Discussion comes mostly from min/maxing in some form - sometimes people talk about omegaspacewhalefromanotherdimension Grids and teams which makes little sense to me, as there's much more value to be had in minmaxing things that you actually can influence without daddy owning several oil fields.


But seriously, don't undersell P2W Eidolons. They are a massive game changer. I'm not sure about your 20% damage boost, since last time it was 25% when I checked. This, however, could be a figure from before Soul weapons and didn't assume elemental advantage, so eh, good enough I suppose. Still, in two months we're moving from 100%s to 160%s and ooooh boy, 20% isn't gonna cut it anymore.
Sure that's unfair since it is comparing 0-stars to 4-stars, but hey, Eidolon bricks are a thing even for free now.

The reason why they're not mentioned here is because they're not reliable for you to get - and rather difficult to split into eras. I mean, how would I categorize them? "Pre-P2W," "After P2W" and "by now 99% of people who didn't find P2W have either rerolled into one long ago or have outright quit in frustration" eras?

Originally Posted by Slashley

But seriously, don't undersell P2W Eidolons. They are a massive game changer. I'm not sure about your 20% damage boost, since last time it was 25% when I checked. This, however, could be a figure from before Soul weapons and didn't assume elemental advantage, so eh, good enough I suppose. Still, in two months we're moving from 100%s to 160%s and ooooh boy, 20% isn't gonna cut it anymore.
Sure that's unfair since it is comparing 0-stars to 4-stars, but hey, Eidolon bricks are a thing even for free now.

The reason why they're not mentioned here is because they're not reliable for you to get - and rather difficult to split into eras. I mean, how would I categorize them? "Pre-P2W," "After P2W" and "by now 99% of people who didn't find P2W have either rerolled into one long ago or have outright quit in frustration" eras?

Maybe those make sense in a business standpoint? Dunno though, but some dude reportedly spent $1.000,00 looking for Cerberus.

If there were no p2w Eidolons, the game would be more fun, but dunno if more profitable:

1 - I could choose other Friend's Eidolons based on content and preferences. As it is now, I will always choose someone with a p2w.

2 - It wouldn't alienate some players. A noob with a p2w will make friends with other powerful players, join better unions, clear more content, than even a veteran without those.

3 - It wouldn't derail a topic about the game's past =P

I understand power creep, but I believe those 100% Eidolons could easily be 50-60% and still be sought after (Hraes and Nidhogg for example, would still be good, but I could use Behemoth or Sleipnir if my himes had debuffs covered. Belial and Rudra would be more trashy, as there is Ifrit and Typhoon with Attack+ already, and Fafnir has both Atk and Def+).

I'd also like if the Souls were more balanced, in order to restore this Era of Harmony. The "which soul to use" thread would have more varied responses than "just use Hercules or Shingen".

In resume, there is less strategic decisions when one equipment is way more overpowered than the others.

Originally Posted by Geo

Maybe those make sense in a business standpoint? Dunno though, but some dude reportedly spent $1.000,00 looking for Cerberus.

Just so you know, 1000 dollars is absolutely nothing in terms of whaling. There are people who are spending ten times that at least monthly even on Nutaku, I am pretty sure.

There is a reason why gachas/loot boxes are taking over video games so hard. Some people have ALL the money, and are willing to spend it. Reminder, 4200 dollars on average is what it takes to find a single P2W, so when you see somebody with 7 of them, that person has spent at least 30k money on the game. Probably ten times that in order to limit break them, partially through Eidolon bricks and partially through finding dupes.

So to the dude who got irritated by not getting Cerberus: you didn't spend enough!

But I watched a video on YouTube some time ago, about the FtP games. They are not about the skill, but about the time spent. The player will believe they have skills because they will tackle a complicated UI and lot of meaningless mechanics. The player will have incentives to spend some money in order to not waste his precious time grinding.

Heck, KamiPro is just like that!

1 - It has more than 7 currencies - Gems, Magic Jewels, Star Coins, Eidolon Orbs, Accessories Points, Tower Medals, Guild Medals, Orichalcon, Draconic Eyes, for example. Each Advent Battle is its own economy even!

2 - The player has to build his own weapon grid. In the Era of Harmony it was easy, just get Assault over Defender, but nowadays there is Ascencion, Exceed, Phantom, Rush, Vigoras...

3 - But regardless of all that, it will all come down to: "got a p2w?"

Originally Posted by Slashley

But seriously, don't undersell P2W Eidolons.

Just to be clear, my intent was never to undersell P2W. I did say that they are a big deal (maybe I should have said that at the beginning instead of the middle of my post), I'm only pushing back against the idea that owning a P2W is more important than building out your grid, which I think is incorrect. And you are right, they're not mutually exclusive but synergistic, so doing both will get you really OP.

Originally Posted by Slashley

In other words:Once you have your Vigors and Exceeds and your 200% Assaults, do they diminish the value of a P2W? No, no they don't. On the contrary, ALL of this is further boosted by having a P2W Eidolon. This is why you're looking at it wrong.

That is true from both directions though: having a P2W does not diminish the value of your grid, on the contrary, it is further boosted by FLB-ing your grid.

Originally Posted by Slashley

But that's not the point - the point is, YOU WILL GET YOUR GRID

And you will get your MLB guardian eido - think of it as practice for T4 soul grind

I haven't done the math as it's too dependent on your team setup and grid, but I think the power difference between guardian eido and P2W may be comparable to the power difference between f2p full FLB and spacewhale full FLB.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Discussion comes mostly from min/maxing in some form - sometimes people talk about omegaspacewhalefromanotherdimension Grids and teams which makes little sense to me, as there's much more value to be had in minmaxing things that you actually can influence without daddy owning several oil fields.

It's sort of a continuum though. I mean one brick per tower isn't crazy for most ppl 'cos of the ranking rewards, so most of us can FLB 2 hime weapons per year naturally. If you go full mono-element, you can mtix for weapon dupes once you have your core team and buy those brick deals on top of what we get from tower - it'll add up to several hundred dollars or so a year if you buy all the bricks and mtix, which is admittedly a lot for a video game, but a lot of ppl probably spend more eating out than that over a year and spend even more on other luxury items like fancy cars and lavish vacations (at least that's how I justify spending on video games to myself.) It's only spacewhale territory if you try to do this for more than one element.

In any case. it's often the same type of considerations whether you're using f2p or not anyway - with light for example, ppl often go for dupe Tish lances for the exceed regardless of whether they're building a lance grid or not; f2p FLB grid will also need exceed, but you'll get it from UE axe or guardian glaive instead.

Originally Posted by Slashley

The reason why they're not mentioned here is because they're not reliable for you to get - and rather difficult to split into eras. I mean, how would I categorize them? "Pre-P2W," "After P2W" and "by now 99% of people who didn't find P2W have either rerolled into one long ago or have outright quit in frustration" eras?

I actually never really took issue with what you include/exclude since honestly I haven't even been around long enough to have a right to comment

Originally Posted by Geo

2 - It wouldn't alienate some players. A noob with a p2w will make friends with other powerful players, join better unions, clear more content, than even a veteran without those.

These are the kinda statements that I'm pushing back against. I actually do NOT befriend low rank players anymore regardless of what eidos they have (before or after I got fluffy) 'cos they mess up my rags too often (if you're already on my friend list you're safe, 'cos i have a no-kick policy unless you go inactive or stuff your eido slots with lilims or kaisers.) Vets with no P2W but are in strong unions are very valuable as they give me access to their raids. I mean, I still need a large number of friends with fluffy, but it doesn't have to be my entire friend list.

Also, I've been clearing content just fine well before I got fluffy - 20/20 mission points for every GO, AAB all ults and all AQ5. I like to think that some noob with a P2W can't accomplish that and I'm not even technically a vet (played for almost a year at this point.) P2W eidos are OP, but they're not going to solve everything.

I do agree about the alienating ppl part though, I kinda wish they designed things such that the optimal eido combo is 1 P2W and 1 F2P like the guardian eido so you have an incentive to befriend ppl with something you don't have (kinda like Dia U - you don't really want to befriend other Dia U but other elemental P2W, if only Dia U wasn't also P2W.)

Originally Posted by Geo

In resume, there is less strategic decisions when one equipment is way more overpowered than the others.

Main eido selection is a small part of the number of decisions you have to make regarding equipment though. Hime, weapons and sub-eido selections are largely independent of the main eido selection.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Main eido selection is a small part of the number of decisions you have to make regarding equipment though. Hime, weapons and sub-eido selections are largely independent of the main eido selection.

Exactly my point. We could argue about which hime to use, as we often see on the Miracle Ticket thread, or about which grid is better.

But Main or Friend Eidolon's choice? That's a no brainer! That's why the player has less strategic options, because there is only one (two?) correct choice.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

--
And you will get your MLB guardian eido - think of it as practice for T4 soul grind

I haven't done the math as it's too dependent on your team setup and grid, but I think the power difference between guardian eido and P2W may be comparable to the power difference between f2p full FLB and spacewhale full FLB.--

When I updated my damage calc to include Olympia Eidolons, I noticed that Olympia Eidolon is about equal to 60% Gacha Eidolons. For my stats, when on-element. So they're no alternative to 100%+ Eidolons at all, sadly.

I'm not expecting the grind for them to be all that bad. I am guessing the same droprate as Magnas and the fights being about as difficult, so getting 3-Stars should be relatively fast and the final copy will take a while. Time will tell.