Kamihime - the journey of the first 2.5 years

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Originally Posted by Slashley

When I updated my damage calc to include Olympia Eidolons, I noticed that Olympia Eidolon is about equal to 60% Gacha Eidolons. For my stats, when on-element. So they're no alternative to 100%+ Eidolons at all, sadly.

I'm not expecting the grind for them to be all that bad. I am guessing the same droprate as Magnas and the fights being about as difficult, so getting 3-Stars should be relatively fast and the final copy will take a while. Time will tell.

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So while you are technically correct, the value of an Olympia Eidolon is not just the attack power (which they can't beat an on-element eidolon), but in the massive boost to sustain (and potentially vigor buffs if built for it). The 40% bonus character attack is negligible and will equal about a 50-60% element eidolon, but the bonus to defender, and more importantly, ascension and vigor from triple skills will allow you to fight in Rags for an extended duration while also maintaining burst capability and damage output. An Olympia Eidolon team IS stronger than almost every other Eidolon other than the 100% Element Eidolons. For everyone else who doesn't have one, it's a straight up stat boost (especially if you're earning bricks from the Towers and FLBing triple skill weapons). If you're running Thunder or Light (which both have incredible sustain and vigor buffs), they can work very well.


Dejnov.

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Originally Posted by Dejnov

-- and more importantly, ascension and vigor from triple skills --

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There's a couple of problems with this.

Ascension has a cap, and the only element you can build an Ascension Grid realistically is Light (unless you are a newer player, in which case, fuck you). And Light is already capped in Ascension without Olympia. Can you get like, one or two Ascension weapons for other elements? Well, I guess? Is giving those a 40% boost going to do jackshit? Probably not. I'd see Ascension boosted by Olympia be useful if it didn't have a cap, since you could slam your Light Staff Grid and boost THAT a 40% boost. But you can't.

Vigor is also something that we have extremely poor access to. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Maybe, depending on element? Are you going to be at full HP to make use out of it against content that matters? Most likely no.

I can't help but see things like these as people applying spacewhalelogic to freaking normies, something like some omegawhale using a Thor Hammer Grid (Assault(++)/Ascension) and then soloing Water Olympia thanks to Dian (while downgrading damage output from loss of second P2W). But for 99.99% of the playerbase, it simply doesn't work in that way. Is the Olympia Eidolon an upgrade? Sure. But it's NOT a big one, simply because we don't have THAT much leeway in our Grids. You use what you have, not what would best suit the situation.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

Ascension has a cap, and the only element you can build an Ascension Grid realistically is Light (unless you are a newer player, in which case, fuck you). And Light is already capped in Ascension without Olympia.

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Wait, unless you use 4 light UE staffs, you're not hitting ascension cap even with the Olympia eido (4 * 37 * 1.4 = 207.2% - just barely hitting the 200% ascension cap.) As to whether ascension is useful, well that is the same question as asking whether heal is useful. If you go full glass cannon for every battle, yeah, it's useless, but I have never seen any raids survive a DRag without heal of any sort, and it can't be the case that heal is useful but 40% more heal is not (technically it's 40% more of ascension, which is something less than 40% more heal but you get what I'm saying.)

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Originally Posted by Slashley

I'd see Ascension boosted by Olympia be useful if it didn't have a cap, since you could slam your Light Staff Grid and boost THAT a 40% boost. But you can't.

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Hitting ascension cap gives you 4,800 raid-wide heal with Andro. Bring two of these into a raid and the entire raid is practically unkillable even in a FRag after 10T (I have actually tried this with my union, 2 Andros + 2 dmg dealers going way past 10T without killing the top add and everyone still staying nice and healthy; for the record, those Andros were using LB0 ori weapons and SR weapons to get the ascension, not some whale grade draconic eye staff grid or something - you use what you have and sometimes the crappy weapons still does wonders for the raid.)

In any case, ascension or vigor or not, the Olympia eido scales with your grid, so if you're not light, your UE FLB will give you another weapon skill and scale that up accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

I can't help but see things like these as people applying spacewhalelogic to freaking normies, something like some omegawhale using a Thor Hammer Grid (Assault(++)/Ascension) and then soloing Water Olympia thanks to Dian (while downgrading damage output from loss of second P2W). But for 99.99% of the playerbase, it simply doesn't work in that way. Is the Olympia Eidolon an upgrade? Sure. But it's NOT a big one, simply because we don't have THAT much leeway in our Grids. You use what you have, not what would best suit the situation.

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Let's use my grid as example, which is light unfortunately: Mike lance (FLB), Sol gun (FLB), 2 UE axe (FLB), 2 UE staff (FLB), Barong gun, St. Nick sword, LB2 Tsuku bow + soul weapon (will ignore since Olympia eido won't scale that one.) I don't think that is a spacewhale grid, and if I counted everything correctly, I have 150% assault, 50% defender, 111% ascension, 60%/80% exceed cap/base. With that, MLB Olympia eido will give me 60% assault, 20% defender, 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed. MLB Heca only gives 60% assault and 20% defender, so Olympia already beats Heca and will grow more powerful as I add more FLB weapons slowly over time.

I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, and 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed on top of that is nothing to sneeze at - that's basically one FLB weapon's worth of skills, and remember, the upgrade can get better since I still have 3 weapons that are not FLB-ed. Is it as big an upgrade as a P2W? No, I don't think so, but I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. I will assert though, that by the time you are ready to challenge Olympia raids, your grid will probably be around or stronger than mine, so the Olympia eido will be a big upgrade over whatever you're using unless it's a P2W.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, and 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed on top of that is nothing to sneeze at - that's basically one FLB weapon's worth of skills, and remember, the upgrade can get better since I still have 3 weapons that are not FLB-ed. Is it as big an upgrade as a P2W? No, I don't think so, but I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. I will assert though, that by the time you are ready to challenge Olympia raids, your grid will probably be around or stronger than mine, so the Olympia eido will be a big upgrade over whatever you're using unless it's a P2W.

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This right here is the basic progression that you get from the Olympia Eidos. They are better than all other Eidos, so they are a step up. Other grids (my experience is Light and Thunder) have the ability to go 3/3/3- 3 Assault/Defender, 3 Assault/Exceed, and 3 Assault/Ascension. That's a very viable spread of damage, hitpoints and sustain. For Light it's a single miracle Ticket (Sol) and basically UE weapons. For Thunder it's a couple SSR lances (pride/ascension) and bricks (which players get... it's not like they're non-existent).

I don't believe these a space whale levels... while they can take the tactics to extreme, you can still employ the weapon layout above and get a grid that might not snipe, but can plow through Rags effectively and, more importantly for the non-space whales, consistently and constantly. This should allow you to not die in a raid... and constant presence (with no reduction in assault capability) increases your overall damage done and makes it easier to complete the Rags. The above spread, with or without an Olympia Eido, will allow you to farm the current highest content (with help). If you're a space whale... maybe solo.


Dejnov.


P.S. The Tenpo exchange gives Thunder a 3skill gun (assault, ascension, vigor), Light a 3skill staff (defender, ascension, vigor), and Wind a 3skill glaive (defender, pride, pride). These weapons are what makes Olympia Eidos the go to Eido for everyone who doesn't have a 100% Element Eido. You have the opportunity to have triple skill grids (without Hime weapons) and everyone gets a very good mix of skills. When mixed with old UE weapons or the new angel weapons which have massive assault, and a bricked Hime weapon or two you can have a weapon grid for nearly free that will allow you to do very very well. I apologize for not mentioning the other elements as I'm not playing those, but I'm sure they have options also.

Taking a quick break from work and wanted to flesh this out more with concrete numbers so we're not just talking hypotheticals here:

Use my light grid, St. Nick as main and friend fluffy as the base case and to maximize the appeal of P2W, let's make fluffy MLB and we're fighting off-element (on-element adds 45% elemental, which slightly reduces the appeal of additional elemental from P2W.)

With soul weapon, my base case elemental is 30% + 45% + 120% = 195% elemental. My assault is 150%.

Switching from St. Nick main to MLB fluffy main improves elemental to 270%, no change in assault, so overall change in dmg is (1+2.7) / (1+1.95) = 25% increase in dmg from fluffy.

Switching from St. Nick main to Hagith main drops elemental to 150% but improves assault to 210%. Ignoring exceed, defender and ascension improvements, this change alone is [(1+1.5)*(1+2.1)] / [(1+1.95)*(1+1.5)] = 5% increase in dmg from Hagith assault gain.

We're not done yet though. In a somewhat close to meta light team, you should be at a 3T burst cycle, and depending on how many red abilities you have and what your DATA is, the burst accounts for over half of the total dmg each cycle (without PF, PF actually often slows down the burst cycle too much.) To keep the math simple, let's assume the burst is exactly half the dmg of each burst cycle. Since we're not spacewhales here, let's assume we're not even hitting the 1 mil burst cap, so only the 32% exceed and not the 24% cap is relevant. 0.32 / 5 base SSR burst multiplier is a 6.4% increase in dmg. Burst accounts for half of total dmg, so this translates into a 3.2% overall increase in dmg - this is a separate multiplier from the 5% we got from assault since assault raises the dmg of everything. Multiplying the two gets us to 8% increase in dmg so far.

Now for the defender part. As a first approximation, let's assume that you're just another body to throw at a rag, so you fight until you die and let someone else carry the raid. If you have twice as much health, you will survive twice as long and therefore deal twice as much dmg. Hagith increases our defender value from 50% to 70%, which is a 13% increase in hp, which means we multiply our 8% by that and gets us to 23% increase in dmg - this is almost as good as the 25% we got from using fluffy as main.

Now, in real life situations, you don't usually fight until you die, and if you're fighting something like lrag where its OD just ends you regardless of whether you have an extra 13% hp or not it's not even relevant, so we have to discount the value of defender somewhat. I'm not gonna even try to put a number on that, but remember, I have ignored ascension so far, which I will also not put a number on, and unless you discount defender to close to zero, Hagith for my current non-spacewhale grid compares quite favorably to fluffy. Even if you say that defender is only worth half the value I computed, Hagith still boost overall dmg by 17% - two-thirds of what fluffy is worth.

P2W is a big deal, nobody is saying otherwise, but Olympia eido imo is at least two-thirds as big a deal as a P2W, which is still a pretty big deal imo. You have to assign very low values to non-assault/exceed skills to conclude otherwise.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Wait, unless you use 4 light UE staffs, you're not hitting ascension cap even with the Olympia eido (4 * 37 * 1.4 = 207.2% - just barely hitting the 200% ascension cap.)

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There has been FIVE of those Staves, you know. And Phantom Staff is also a thing. Also, isn't it 34% per FLB? 5*34% + 30% Phantom = 200%, exactly the cap. Whether or not that's a smart thing to do is another matter...

In any event;

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- (technically it's 40% more of ascension, which is something less than 40% more heal but you get what I'm saying.)

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this here is the real problem. Olympia will boost each FLB Ascension by 13.6% Ascension, which translates into 217.6 more Heal from Andromeda. Per heal, so that's what, 43.5 HP per turn...?

Which is why Ascension isn't very impressive until you stack up a whoooole bunch of it. It stacks up and starting being impressive as you start getting to and over 150%, but at that point it's already badly cutting into your Grid.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

In any case, ascension or vigor or not, the Olympia eido scales with your grid, so if you're not light, your UE FLB will give you another weapon skill and scale that up accordingly.

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Ah yes, like Double or Triple that Fire and Water get. While I still doubt that we know their actual values, we can say that they're probably very low. And very low * 0.4 is not much of an upgrade. Or Crit that Thunder gets. You know, that stat that is quite nice when it procs, but the procrate is so awful that even 0.5% Assault is notably better for you. AND Crit only applies with elemental advantage.

At least Wind and Dark get something decent. 240% Exceed in Wind gets 96% more Burst damage, although with PF only 60% of it applies due to cap. Still, for R Hime, that's already double Bursts just from Grid should you need help with R-only missions... ... which nobody who has seen all of the Lusts will need, and those who need help can't get! GAME DESIGN!
And Dark gets a chunk of HP. Like 36% if you're running ALL the Axes. Can't complain.

So, very few skills actually get boosted - and that's a large part of why Olympia Eidolons are not quite the hottest shit in town.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, --

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The problem with this line of thought is that this only applies with elemental advantage. Character Atk Eidolons have had an advantage over Elemental ones ever since elemental advantage became the assumed default, P2W Eidolons eventually became more common (most likely due to those without them just outright quitting) and Soul weapons. So you shouldn't compare to St. Nick or Barong for those who don't have Managarm, you should compare to Yule Goat.

Either way, I really can't sign the "big upgrade" part since while it is AN upgrade, it simply isn't a great one. It's basically comparable to a MLB gacha Eidolon, which again, is AN upgrade, but not THE upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Dejnov

P.S. The Tenpo exchange gives Thunder a 3skill gun (assault, ascension, vigor), Light a 3skill staff (defender, ascension, vigor), and Wind a 3skill glaive (defender, pride, pride). These weapons are what makes Olympia Eidos the go to Eido for everyone who doesn't have a 100% Element Eido. You have the opportunity to have triple skill grids (without Hime weapons) and everyone gets a very good mix of skills.

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The problem with these weapons is that they're NOT FLB weapons. They go up to slvl20 (while costing as much to level up as FLB weapons from 1-30 for some reason). As such, I don't see those weapons as real upgrades - since 30+30 skill levels is about the same as 20+20+20 - they're a catch up mechanic for those who missed out on FLB weapons. Really, the only weapons that stand out to me as potentially good weapons for veterans are Water Lance (if you missed out on Glaive Grid) and the aforementioned Wind Glaive (since Wind doesn't get a F2P Phantom Grid).

The other good thing about that shop is that there are Exceeds in there - but sadly, these seem to be in dual skill weapons. Better than nothing, but simply doesn't compare to the UE weapons. Of course, I could've missed out on some of them, since FOR SOME REASON WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD SHEET ON THESE WEAPONS WHERE ONE COULD TELL AT A GLANCE.
Seriously JStar, what the fuck.

Better than nothing, but we have to remember that the rate at which you get these weapons is (most likely going to be) god-awful. At a maximum of 1 per month, and that's if you kill 350 of these things per month, and that's per element that you're working on. Or you can go at half the speed at just 100 kills per month, which is much more manageable.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- To keep the math simple, let's assume the burst is exactly half the dmg of each burst cycle. -- Burst accounts for half of total dmg, so this translates into a 3.2% overall increase in dmg - this is a separate multiplier from the 5% we got from assault since assault raises the dmg of everything. Multiplying the two gets us to 8% increase in dmg so far.

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Rather than pull speculation out of your ass, you should probably use actual maths. Like I don't know, a calculator.

And 3 turn burst cycles? That sounds completely out there. I suppose it could happen thanks to Michael, but christ. Even if true, that's some data that will literally only ever apply to one element in Kamihime ever. Let's not use the most favorable situation possible - an insane team that is absolutely perfect and above anything else in possible in the game - as the very basis of maths.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- which means we multiply our 8% by that and gets us to 23% increase in dmg - this is almost as good as the 25% we got from using fluffy as main.

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As you said later, this is entirely and thoroughly detached from reality. That's not how it works, at all. This kind of math would only work if losing HP would linearly (not exponentially like with Vigor) translate into damage lost.


You are seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY over-estimating what Olympia Eidolons will do to you. Again, you can expect to upgrade to something like a MLB Gacha Eidolon. Is that an upgrade? Yes. Yes it is. But pre-P2W Eidolons, you could barely notice the damage difference from whales, and that's roughly where you will stand with a Olympia Eidolon.

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Originally Posted by dreamlitz

You have to assign very low values to non-assault/exceed skills to conclude otherwise.

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I don't even value Exceed. You need one Exceed, plus one if you have P2W Eidolon. Add in more depending on gimmick Hime such as Thunder Aphro, but in general, one is all you need. The damage increase portion of it is outright bad until you stack up a ton of it, and stacking up a ton of it will cost your Grid a lot.

What you want is Assault. What you want after that is HP. After that, the rest can go to Exceed. Remember - the new weapon skills in Kamihime came to dilute the weapon pool with trash - NOT to make it easier to upgrade!

Is it possible to make Grids based on Ascension or Vigor? Yes, yes it is. Are you likely to ever do that? No. No you're not. Like your experiment with 0-star Ori weapons with Ascension. Did you make it work? Yes. Was it worth the effort? It was cute, but hell no. I'm pretty sure the raid would've been way easier to kill with four people just running their normal Grids - with or without Andromedas -assuming they were decently strong. If they weren't... well, oh boy was it a monstrous thing to do if you made two newbies waste four Ori and 4x3800 slvl points on those weapons.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

What you want is Assault. What you want after that is HP. After that, the rest can go to Exceed. Remember - the new weapon skills in Kamihime came to dilute the weapon pool with trash - NOT to make it easier to upgrade!

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So Slashley, I think this quote from you is the biggest mistake you're making in understanding Kamihime and the ability to create synergy.

What you want is the largest marginal gain in a non-multiplied attribute; rather than adding marginal gain to a highly multiplied attribute. This is very different than prioritizing assault over defense over ascension, etc. After you have a decent multiplier, greater returns are built around adding a multiplier to a skill that doesn't have it. After you have 150% assault, every marginal point only adds 0.4% of the amount. At that point there is very little value to keep adding more to that source of multiplier. The same for exceed and defender and everything else. After you have decent amounts of assault and defender, it really is more valuable to add ascension (if you have a healer) for the combat sustain to your team. Where that break occurs is sometimes in the user's experience, but the issue is that your current calculators don't account for it so you're sometimes intentionally blind to synergy possibilities.

It's very similar to the discussions we had with Accessories. Defense bonuses (since they are the same amount as assault bonuses) are much more valuable than plain assault bonuses on accessories. They are so much more valuable that I usually think of an assault proc on an accessory as a small step up from burst gauge. You should be working hard to gain anywhere from 15 to 20% defense from accessories (mostly tiaras) as they act like intrinsic damage cut. That's super valuable (and for Light usually means they are potentially as valuable as DATA amounts, since we also have an inherently large amount of that).

The same principle applies to ascension and vigor. Vigor is self-explanatory as it's a different multiplier but when you start getting large amounts of ascension, hit points, defense, etc. You get to a point where these things can actually synergize incredibly well. They can help drive a team's sustain and potentially damage ability (with the vigor).

The Olympia Eidolon is a step up from Heca and Yule Goat for any veteran grid (minimum 150% assault and 50% defense). It's a great step up for those who effectively use triple skills in their weapon set.

Lastly triple skills at MLB are better than a dual skill weapon at FLB. Your (30+30) vs. (20+20+20) is inherently flawed, since you're thinking linearly. If you're at 150% assault and 50% defender, you should be multiplying the assault level by 0.4 and the defender at 0.66. This would change the estimation from (30 assault + 30 defender) vs. (20 assault + 20 defender + 20 ascension) to (12 assault + 20 defender) vs. (8 assault + 13.3 defender + 20 ascension) or 32 effective skill points to 41 effective skill points. This is why Hime weapons like Vishnu Glaive ranks higher priority than Shamash Book (both triple skill weapons). The vigor from the glaive is a new multiplier vs. the extra pride from the book which is still plain assault.


Cheers!!

Dejnov.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

There has been FIVE of those Staves, you know. And Phantom Staff is also a thing. Also, isn't it 34% per FLB? 5*34% + 30% Phantom = 200%, exactly the cap. Whether or not that's a smart thing to do is another matter...

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If we're going by use what you have, most ppl I know including myself don't have 5 UE staffs. If you have 5 UE staffs, I'm pretty sure you're in a situation where you DO have options for weapons and can probably make even better use of Olympia eido's flexibility than I can. For one, you should have 4 UE axes, so make an axe grid not a staff grid with Hercules axe. You still have room for 4 UE staff after that to still hit ascension cap with Hagith - Hagith boosts ascension by 52% here - more than one one entire FLB worth of ascension L. Worthless or not I leave it for others to decide.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

Ah yes, like Double or Triple that Fire and Water get. While I still doubt that we know their actual values, we can say that they're probably very low. And very low * 0.4 is not much of an upgrade.

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We do know the values though, unless you have good reasons to doubt the work of JP/EN wiki contributors: FLB rush 1.5%/4.5%/7.5% for S/M/L and FLB barrage is 1.5%/3.0%/4.5%. Yeah, weapon DATA skills are less than great especially if they're S, but as long as there're other decent weapons, Olympia eido is still valuable. If those elements indeed don't have any good f2p weapon, then the problem is dev bias, not with the Olympia eido itself.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

So you shouldn't compare to St. Nick or Barong for those who don't have Managarm, you should compare to Yule Goat.

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Yule Goat is not in the eidolon orb shop, so not everyone can get it, I actually missed it myself =(

Anyway, I redid the math using Yule Goat as base case. MLB fluffy is now worth a whooping 48% dmg improvement, but Hagith is now worth 25% REGARDLESS of how you value defender, 'cos Hagith and Yule Goat gives the exact same defender bonus with my grid. So, Hagith is half of a massive upgrade, that is still a big upgrade in my books. Seriously, 25% extra dmg easily means the difference between clearing and not clearing content.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

And 3 turn burst cycles? That sounds completely out there. I suppose it could happen thanks to Michael, but christ. Even if true, that's some data that will literally only ever apply to one element in Kamihime ever. Let's not use the most favorable situation possible - an insane team that is absolutely perfect and above anything else in possible in the game - as the very basis of maths.

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Shingen, Lugh, Tish, Mike AW plus literally anyone you want - even an R if you want. If you play light, hopefully you rerolled into at least one of those himes, so it's just 2 mtix. And for completeness, this is how it works:

After first burst, Shingen is at 50 BG from Mike AW and soul weapon, everyone else is at 20
Shingen's skill 1 gives 35 BG with a 3T CD, so she's just 15 BG short from bursting - 2 single attacks will get her there
Lugh's skill 2 gives 30 BG every turn for 2T after burst, so she's at 80. On 3rd turn, her skill still gives 20 BG, so she literally doesn't even have to attack and is ready for burst
Tish 2nd abi has 3T CD and every skill used gives 10 BG. She has 2 other 6CD skill, so if you stagger them, you have an extra 10 BG every 3T. She's at 40 BG and will need 2 DA to hit 80 to be ready for burst - tiara set plus some combination of Shingen DATA buff, fluffy DATA buff, Mike AW DA buff will easily get you there
Mike AW needs 1 DA and 1 TA to hit 70 - easily doable with tiara set and Tish's TA buff
Generic hime needs 2 DA to hit 60, tiara set and Tish's TA buff should be more than enough (remember Tish's buff is 5T, so you can basically keep it up on two himes almost all the time)
I haven't even mentioned Shingen's 20 BG team-wide MEX on 6T CD and Mike's 20 BG team-wide on 7T CD - if you get really unlucky with DATA, just use one of these and viola, ready for FB

I do not consider 2 mtix and 4 tiara sets to be an insanely perfect team.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

As you said later, this is entirely and thoroughly detached from reality. That's not how it works, at all. This kind of math would only work if losing HP would linearly (not exponentially like with Vigor) translate into damage lost.

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If you don't like vigor, use pride, which is more accessible (I have it in my grid I just ignored it 'cos it makes things unnecessarily complicated.) There literally isn't a situation where neither vigor nor pride is of value. In any case, if you're seriously saying that defender is a useless skill and having more of it does basically nothing, we somehow have had completely difference experiences from this game then. I've min-maxed like crazy in the past for a 10%-ish boost in my hp so I can clear stuff like GO more comfortably. Enemy does DATA, too, and you want some safety margin.

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Originally Posted by Slashley

I don't even value Exceed. You need one Exceed, plus one if you have P2W Eidolon.

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Exceed isn't just about the cap though, it acts like an additional dmg multiplier. Going from zero to 1 FLB exceed S will boost your non-PF FB dmg by 6%. If FB is half your dmg per burst cycle, that's a 3% boost overall (doesn't matter how long your burst cycle is for this calculation, only where the dmg is coming from.) Compare to a FLB assault S when you're already at 189% if you're only focused on assault, gives a 5% dmg boost - if you say 5% from that extra assault is a big deal, the 3% from exceed should at least be on your radar, given that double assault/pride weapons are extremely rare (no one is saying sacrifice assault for exceed, only that exceed is valuable especially as a second skill.)

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Originally Posted by Slashley

I'm pretty sure the raid would've been way easier to kill with four people just running their normal Grids - with or without Andromedas -assuming they were decently strong. If they weren't... well, oh boy was it a monstrous thing to do if you made two newbies waste four Ori and 4x3800 slvl points on those weapons.

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Those were my alts, I don't experiment on newbies (yes, I run two active alts alongside my main, call me whatever names you want, I'm actually used to it.) And 4 ori isn't much once you get the hang of GO - I have spent 16 ori just buying weapons for my light grid and 12 ori for my dark grid. If you ignore the bad FLBs (like the UE examples you gave earlier) and/or don't try to build all elements at once, there's actually plenty of ori to spare.

In any case, that is also besides the point, I was just trying to make the point that even if ascension is capped, being able to hit that level of ascension has value. I know a lot of ppl, not just you, disagrees with that, so it's not really worth going into more.

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For one, you should have 4 UE axes, so make an axe grid not a staff grid with Hercules axe.

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i'm pretty sure we had only 3 UE axes (just checked my inventory)
we had, however, Assault/Defense axe from event, means 6 axes grid is still viable, with Herc axe

Let me sum up all this algebra:

Weapon grid is more important than having a p2w Eidolon when it comes to power up a team.

Having a p2w Eidolon is more important than whatever other options there are.

Olympian Eidolons will be the best option available for f2players. But again, the p2w ones are (generally, or always?) better.

Is that the correct conclusion?