Just to be clear, my intent was never to undersell P2W. I did say that they are a big deal (maybe I should have said that at the beginning instead of the middle of my post), I'm only pushing back against the idea that owning a P2W is more important than building out your grid, which I think is incorrect. And you are right, they're not mutually exclusive but synergistic, so doing both will get you really OP.Originally Posted by Slashley
That is true from both directions though: having a P2W does not diminish the value of your grid, on the contrary, it is further boosted by FLB-ing your grid.
And you will get your MLB guardian eido - think of it as practice for T4 soul grind
I haven't done the math as it's too dependent on your team setup and grid, but I think the power difference between guardian eido and P2W may be comparable to the power difference between f2p full FLB and spacewhale full FLB.
It's sort of a continuum though. I mean one brick per tower isn't crazy for most ppl 'cos of the ranking rewards, so most of us can FLB 2 hime weapons per year naturally. If you go full mono-element, you can mtix for weapon dupes once you have your core team and buy those brick deals on top of what we get from tower - it'll add up to several hundred dollars or so a year if you buy all the bricks and mtix, which is admittedly a lot for a video game, but a lot of ppl probably spend more eating out than that over a year and spend even more on other luxury items like fancy cars and lavish vacations (at least that's how I justify spending on video games to myself.) It's only spacewhale territory if you try to do this for more than one element.
In any case. it's often the same type of considerations whether you're using f2p or not anyway - with light for example, ppl often go for dupe Tish lances for the exceed regardless of whether they're building a lance grid or not; f2p FLB grid will also need exceed, but you'll get it from UE axe or guardian glaive instead.
I actually never really took issue with what you include/exclude since honestly I haven't even been around long enough to have a right to comment
These are the kinda statements that I'm pushing back against. I actually do NOT befriend low rank players anymore regardless of what eidos they have (before or after I got fluffy) 'cos they mess up my rags too often (if you're already on my friend list you're safe, 'cos i have a no-kick policy unless you go inactive or stuff your eido slots with lilims or kaisers.) Vets with no P2W but are in strong unions are very valuable as they give me access to their raids. I mean, I still need a large number of friends with fluffy, but it doesn't have to be my entire friend list.
Also, I've been clearing content just fine well before I got fluffy - 20/20 mission points for every GO, AAB all ults and all AQ5. I like to think that some noob with a P2W can't accomplish that and I'm not even technically a vet (played for almost a year at this point.) P2W eidos are OP, but they're not going to solve everything.
I do agree about the alienating ppl part though, I kinda wish they designed things such that the optimal eido combo is 1 P2W and 1 F2P like the guardian eido so you have an incentive to befriend ppl with something you don't have (kinda like Dia U - you don't really want to befriend other Dia U but other elemental P2W, if only Dia U wasn't also P2W.)
Main eido selection is a small part of the number of decisions you have to make regarding equipment though. Hime, weapons and sub-eido selections are largely independent of the main eido selection.
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Exactly my point. We could argue about which hime to use, as we often see on the Miracle Ticket thread, or about which grid is better. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
But Main or Friend Eidolon's choice? That's a no brainer! That's why the player has less strategic options, because there is only one (two?) correct choice.
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When I updated my damage calc to include Olympia Eidolons, I noticed that Olympia Eidolon is about equal to 60% Gacha Eidolons. For my stats, when on-element. So they're no alternative to 100%+ Eidolons at all, sadly. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
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And you will get your MLB guardian eido - think of it as practice for T4 soul grind
I haven't done the math as it's too dependent on your team setup and grid, but I think the power difference between guardian eido and P2W may be comparable to the power difference between f2p full FLB and spacewhale full FLB.--
I'm not expecting the grind for them to be all that bad. I am guessing the same droprate as Magnas and the fights being about as difficult, so getting 3-Stars should be relatively fast and the final copy will take a while. Time will tell.
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So while you are technically correct, the value of an Olympia Eidolon is not just the attack power (which they can't beat an on-element eidolon), but in the massive boost to sustain (and potentially vigor buffs if built for it). The 40% bonus character attack is negligible and will equal about a 50-60% element eidolon, but the bonus to defender, and more importantly, ascension and vigor from triple skills will allow you to fight in Rags for an extended duration while also maintaining burst capability and damage output. An Olympia Eidolon team IS stronger than almost every other Eidolon other than the 100% Element Eidolons. For everyone else who doesn't have one, it's a straight up stat boost (especially if you're earning bricks from the Towers and FLBing triple skill weapons). If you're running Thunder or Light (which both have incredible sustain and vigor buffs), they can work very well. Originally Posted by Slashley
Dejnov.
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There's a couple of problems with this. Originally Posted by Dejnov
Ascension has a cap, and the only element you can build an Ascension Grid realistically is Light (unless you are a newer player, in which case, fuck you). And Light is already capped in Ascension without Olympia. Can you get like, one or two Ascension weapons for other elements? Well, I guess? Is giving those a 40% boost going to do jackshit? Probably not. I'd see Ascension boosted by Olympia be useful if it didn't have a cap, since you could slam your Light Staff Grid and boost THAT a 40% boost. But you can't.
Vigor is also something that we have extremely poor access to. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Maybe, depending on element? Are you going to be at full HP to make use out of it against content that matters? Most likely no.
I can't help but see things like these as people applying spacewhalelogic to freaking normies, something like some omegawhale using a Thor Hammer Grid (Assault(++)/Ascension) and then soloing Water Olympia thanks to Dian (while downgrading damage output from loss of second P2W). But for 99.99% of the playerbase, it simply doesn't work in that way. Is the Olympia Eidolon an upgrade? Sure. But it's NOT a big one, simply because we don't have THAT much leeway in our Grids. You use what you have, not what would best suit the situation.
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Wait, unless you use 4 light UE staffs, you're not hitting ascension cap even with the Olympia eido (4 * 37 * 1.4 = 207.2% - just barely hitting the 200% ascension cap.) As to whether ascension is useful, well that is the same question as asking whether heal is useful. If you go full glass cannon for every battle, yeah, it's useless, but I have never seen any raids survive a DRag without heal of any sort, and it can't be the case that heal is useful but 40% more heal is not (technically it's 40% more of ascension, which is something less than 40% more heal but you get what I'm saying.) Originally Posted by Slashley
Hitting ascension cap gives you 4,800 raid-wide heal with Andro. Bring two of these into a raid and the entire raid is practically unkillable even in a FRag after 10T (I have actually tried this with my union, 2 Andros + 2 dmg dealers going way past 10T without killing the top add and everyone still staying nice and healthy; for the record, those Andros were using LB0 ori weapons and SR weapons to get the ascension, not some whale grade draconic eye staff grid or something - you use what you have and sometimes the crappy weapons still does wonders for the raid.) Originally Posted by Slashley
In any case, ascension or vigor or not, the Olympia eido scales with your grid, so if you're not light, your UE FLB will give you another weapon skill and scale that up accordingly.
Let's use my grid as example, which is light unfortunately: Mike lance (FLB), Sol gun (FLB), 2 UE axe (FLB), 2 UE staff (FLB), Barong gun, St. Nick sword, LB2 Tsuku bow + soul weapon (will ignore since Olympia eido won't scale that one.) I don't think that is a spacewhale grid, and if I counted everything correctly, I have 150% assault, 50% defender, 111% ascension, 60%/80% exceed cap/base. With that, MLB Olympia eido will give me 60% assault, 20% defender, 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed. MLB Heca only gives 60% assault and 20% defender, so Olympia already beats Heca and will grow more powerful as I add more FLB weapons slowly over time. Originally Posted by Slashley
I would argue that MLB Heca is a big upgrade over St. Nick and Barong, and 44% ascension and 24%/32% exceed on top of that is nothing to sneeze at - that's basically one FLB weapon's worth of skills, and remember, the upgrade can get better since I still have 3 weapons that are not FLB-ed. Is it as big an upgrade as a P2W? No, I don't think so, but I don't think anyone is claiming that it is. I will assert though, that by the time you are ready to challenge Olympia raids, your grid will probably be around or stronger than mine, so the Olympia eido will be a big upgrade over whatever you're using unless it's a P2W.
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This right here is the basic progression that you get from the Olympia Eidos. They are better than all other Eidos, so they are a step up. Other grids (my experience is Light and Thunder) have the ability to go 3/3/3- 3 Assault/Defender, 3 Assault/Exceed, and 3 Assault/Ascension. That's a very viable spread of damage, hitpoints and sustain. For Light it's a single miracle Ticket (Sol) and basically UE weapons. For Thunder it's a couple SSR lances (pride/ascension) and bricks (which players get... it's not like they're non-existent). Originally Posted by dreamlitz
I don't believe these a space whale levels... while they can take the tactics to extreme, you can still employ the weapon layout above and get a grid that might not snipe, but can plow through Rags effectively and, more importantly for the non-space whales, consistently and constantly. This should allow you to not die in a raid... and constant presence (with no reduction in assault capability) increases your overall damage done and makes it easier to complete the Rags. The above spread, with or without an Olympia Eido, will allow you to farm the current highest content (with help). If you're a space whale... maybe solo.
Dejnov.
P.S. The Tenpo exchange gives Thunder a 3skill gun (assault, ascension, vigor), Light a 3skill staff (defender, ascension, vigor), and Wind a 3skill glaive (defender, pride, pride). These weapons are what makes Olympia Eidos the go to Eido for everyone who doesn't have a 100% Element Eido. You have the opportunity to have triple skill grids (without Hime weapons) and everyone gets a very good mix of skills. When mixed with old UE weapons or the new angel weapons which have massive assault, and a bricked Hime weapon or two you can have a weapon grid for nearly free that will allow you to do very very well. I apologize for not mentioning the other elements as I'm not playing those, but I'm sure they have options also.
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Taking a quick break from work and wanted to flesh this out more with concrete numbers so we're not just talking hypotheticals here:
Use my light grid, St. Nick as main and friend fluffy as the base case and to maximize the appeal of P2W, let's make fluffy MLB and we're fighting off-element (on-element adds 45% elemental, which slightly reduces the appeal of additional elemental from P2W.)
With soul weapon, my base case elemental is 30% + 45% + 120% = 195% elemental. My assault is 150%.
Switching from St. Nick main to MLB fluffy main improves elemental to 270%, no change in assault, so overall change in dmg is (1+2.7) / (1+1.95) = 25% increase in dmg from fluffy.
Switching from St. Nick main to Hagith main drops elemental to 150% but improves assault to 210%. Ignoring exceed, defender and ascension improvements, this change alone is [(1+1.5)*(1+2.1)] / [(1+1.95)*(1+1.5)] = 5% increase in dmg from Hagith assault gain.
We're not done yet though. In a somewhat close to meta light team, you should be at a 3T burst cycle, and depending on how many red abilities you have and what your DATA is, the burst accounts for over half of the total dmg each cycle (without PF, PF actually often slows down the burst cycle too much.) To keep the math simple, let's assume the burst is exactly half the dmg of each burst cycle. Since we're not spacewhales here, let's assume we're not even hitting the 1 mil burst cap, so only the 32% exceed and not the 24% cap is relevant. 0.32 / 5 base SSR burst multiplier is a 6.4% increase in dmg. Burst accounts for half of total dmg, so this translates into a 3.2% overall increase in dmg - this is a separate multiplier from the 5% we got from assault since assault raises the dmg of everything. Multiplying the two gets us to 8% increase in dmg so far.
Now for the defender part. As a first approximation, let's assume that you're just another body to throw at a rag, so you fight until you die and let someone else carry the raid. If you have twice as much health, you will survive twice as long and therefore deal twice as much dmg. Hagith increases our defender value from 50% to 70%, which is a 13% increase in hp, which means we multiply our 8% by that and gets us to 23% increase in dmg - this is almost as good as the 25% we got from using fluffy as main.
Now, in real life situations, you don't usually fight until you die, and if you're fighting something like lrag where its OD just ends you regardless of whether you have an extra 13% hp or not it's not even relevant, so we have to discount the value of defender somewhat. I'm not gonna even try to put a number on that, but remember, I have ignored ascension so far, which I will also not put a number on, and unless you discount defender to close to zero, Hagith for my current non-spacewhale grid compares quite favorably to fluffy. Even if you say that defender is only worth half the value I computed, Hagith still boost overall dmg by 17% - two-thirds of what fluffy is worth.
P2W is a big deal, nobody is saying otherwise, but Olympia eido imo is at least two-thirds as big a deal as a P2W, which is still a pretty big deal imo. You have to assign very low values to non-assault/exceed skills to conclude otherwise.
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There has been FIVE of those Staves, you know. And Phantom Staff is also a thing. Also, isn't it 34% per FLB? 5*34% + 30% Phantom = 200%, exactly the cap. Whether or not that's a smart thing to do is another matter... Originally Posted by dreamlitz
In any event;this here is the real problem. Olympia will boost each FLB Ascension by 13.6% Ascension, which translates into 217.6 more Heal from Andromeda. Per heal, so that's what, 43.5 HP per turn...? Originally Posted by dreamlitz
Which is why Ascension isn't very impressive until you stack up a whoooole bunch of it. It stacks up and starting being impressive as you start getting to and over 150%, but at that point it's already badly cutting into your Grid.Ah yes, like Double or Triple that Fire and Water get. While I still doubt that we know their actual values, we can say that they're probably very low. And very low * 0.4 is not much of an upgrade. Or Crit that Thunder gets. You know, that stat that is quite nice when it procs, but the procrate is so awful that even 0.5% Assault is notably better for you. AND Crit only applies with elemental advantage. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
At least Wind and Dark get something decent. 240% Exceed in Wind gets 96% more Burst damage, although with PF only 60% of it applies due to cap. Still, for R Hime, that's already double Bursts just from Grid should you need help with R-only missions... ... which nobody who has seen all of the Lusts will need, and those who need help can't get! GAME DESIGN!
And Dark gets a chunk of HP. Like 36% if you're running ALL the Axes. Can't complain.
So, very few skills actually get boosted - and that's a large part of why Olympia Eidolons are not quite the hottest shit in town.The problem with this line of thought is that this only applies with elemental advantage. Character Atk Eidolons have had an advantage over Elemental ones ever since elemental advantage became the assumed default, P2W Eidolons eventually became more common (most likely due to those without them just outright quitting) and Soul weapons. So you shouldn't compare to St. Nick or Barong for those who don't have Managarm, you should compare to Yule Goat. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
Either way, I really can't sign the "big upgrade" part since while it is AN upgrade, it simply isn't a great one. It's basically comparable to a MLB gacha Eidolon, which again, is AN upgrade, but not THE upgrade.The problem with these weapons is that they're NOT FLB weapons. They go up to slvl20 (while costing as much to level up as FLB weapons from 1-30 for some reason). As such, I don't see those weapons as real upgrades - since 30+30 skill levels is about the same as 20+20+20 - they're a catch up mechanic for those who missed out on FLB weapons. Really, the only weapons that stand out to me as potentially good weapons for veterans are Water Lance (if you missed out on Glaive Grid) and the aforementioned Wind Glaive (since Wind doesn't get a F2P Phantom Grid). Originally Posted by Dejnov
The other good thing about that shop is that there are Exceeds in there - but sadly, these seem to be in dual skill weapons. Better than nothing, but simply doesn't compare to the UE weapons. Of course, I could've missed out on some of them, since FOR SOME REASON WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD SHEET ON THESE WEAPONS WHERE ONE COULD TELL AT A GLANCE.
Seriously JStar, what the fuck.
Better than nothing, but we have to remember that the rate at which you get these weapons is (most likely going to be) god-awful. At a maximum of 1 per month, and that's if you kill 350 of these things per month, and that's per element that you're working on. Or you can go at half the speed at just 100 kills per month, which is much more manageable.Rather than pull speculation out of your ass, you should probably use actual maths. Like I don't know, a calculator. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
And 3 turn burst cycles? That sounds completely out there. I suppose it could happen thanks to Michael, but christ. Even if true, that's some data that will literally only ever apply to one element in Kamihime ever. Let's not use the most favorable situation possible - an insane team that is absolutely perfect and above anything else in possible in the game - as the very basis of maths.As you said later, this is entirely and thoroughly detached from reality. That's not how it works, at all. This kind of math would only work if losing HP would linearly (not exponentially like with Vigor) translate into damage lost. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
You are seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY over-estimating what Olympia Eidolons will do to you. Again, you can expect to upgrade to something like a MLB Gacha Eidolon. Is that an upgrade? Yes. Yes it is. But pre-P2W Eidolons, you could barely notice the damage difference from whales, and that's roughly where you will stand with a Olympia Eidolon.I don't even value Exceed. You need one Exceed, plus one if you have P2W Eidolon. Add in more depending on gimmick Hime such as Thunder Aphro, but in general, one is all you need. The damage increase portion of it is outright bad until you stack up a ton of it, and stacking up a ton of it will cost your Grid a lot. Originally Posted by dreamlitz
What you want is Assault. What you want after that is HP. After that, the rest can go to Exceed. Remember - the new weapon skills in Kamihime came to dilute the weapon pool with trash - NOT to make it easier to upgrade!
Is it possible to make Grids based on Ascension or Vigor? Yes, yes it is. Are you likely to ever do that? No. No you're not. Like your experiment with 0-star Ori weapons with Ascension. Did you make it work? Yes. Was it worth the effort? It was cute, but hell no. I'm pretty sure the raid would've been way easier to kill with four people just running their normal Grids - with or without Andromedas -assuming they were decently strong. If they weren't... well, oh boy was it a monstrous thing to do if you made two newbies waste four Ori and 4x3800 slvl points on those weapons.
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Originally Posted by Slashley
So Slashley, I think this quote from you is the biggest mistake you're making in understanding Kamihime and the ability to create synergy.
What you want is the largest marginal gain in a non-multiplied attribute; rather than adding marginal gain to a highly multiplied attribute. This is very different than prioritizing assault over defense over ascension, etc. After you have a decent multiplier, greater returns are built around adding a multiplier to a skill that doesn't have it. After you have 150% assault, every marginal point only adds 0.4% of the amount. At that point there is very little value to keep adding more to that source of multiplier. The same for exceed and defender and everything else. After you have decent amounts of assault and defender, it really is more valuable to add ascension (if you have a healer) for the combat sustain to your team. Where that break occurs is sometimes in the user's experience, but the issue is that your current calculators don't account for it so you're sometimes intentionally blind to synergy possibilities.
It's very similar to the discussions we had with Accessories. Defense bonuses (since they are the same amount as assault bonuses) are much more valuable than plain assault bonuses on accessories. They are so much more valuable that I usually think of an assault proc on an accessory as a small step up from burst gauge. You should be working hard to gain anywhere from 15 to 20% defense from accessories (mostly tiaras) as they act like intrinsic damage cut. That's super valuable (and for Light usually means they are potentially as valuable as DATA amounts, since we also have an inherently large amount of that).
The same principle applies to ascension and vigor. Vigor is self-explanatory as it's a different multiplier but when you start getting large amounts of ascension, hit points, defense, etc. You get to a point where these things can actually synergize incredibly well. They can help drive a team's sustain and potentially damage ability (with the vigor).
The Olympia Eidolon is a step up from Heca and Yule Goat for any veteran grid (minimum 150% assault and 50% defense). It's a great step up for those who effectively use triple skills in their weapon set.
Lastly triple skills at MLB are better than a dual skill weapon at FLB. Your (30+30) vs. (20+20+20) is inherently flawed, since you're thinking linearly. If you're at 150% assault and 50% defender, you should be multiplying the assault level by 0.4 and the defender at 0.66. This would change the estimation from (30 assault + 30 defender) vs. (20 assault + 20 defender + 20 ascension) to (12 assault + 20 defender) vs. (8 assault + 13.3 defender + 20 ascension) or 32 effective skill points to 41 effective skill points. This is why Hime weapons like Vishnu Glaive ranks higher priority than Shamash Book (both triple skill weapons). The vigor from the glaive is a new multiplier vs. the extra pride from the book which is still plain assault.
Cheers!!
Dejnov.
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