Thread: Kamihime - the journey of the first 2.5 years

Originally Posted by Slashley

There has been FIVE of those Staves, you know. And Phantom Staff is also a thing. Also, isn't it 34% per FLB? 5*34% + 30% Phantom = 200%, exactly the cap. Whether or not that's a smart thing to do is another matter...

If we're going by use what you have, most ppl I know including myself don't have 5 UE staffs. If you have 5 UE staffs, I'm pretty sure you're in a situation where you DO have options for weapons and can probably make even better use of Olympia eido's flexibility than I can. For one, you should have 4 UE axes, so make an axe grid not a staff grid with Hercules axe. You still have room for 4 UE staff after that to still hit ascension cap with Hagith - Hagith boosts ascension by 52% here - more than one one entire FLB worth of ascension L. Worthless or not I leave it for others to decide.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Ah yes, like Double or Triple that Fire and Water get. While I still doubt that we know their actual values, we can say that they're probably very low. And very low * 0.4 is not much of an upgrade.

We do know the values though, unless you have good reasons to doubt the work of JP/EN wiki contributors: FLB rush 1.5%/4.5%/7.5% for S/M/L and FLB barrage is 1.5%/3.0%/4.5%. Yeah, weapon DATA skills are less than great especially if they're S, but as long as there're other decent weapons, Olympia eido is still valuable. If those elements indeed don't have any good f2p weapon, then the problem is dev bias, not with the Olympia eido itself.

Originally Posted by Slashley

So you shouldn't compare to St. Nick or Barong for those who don't have Managarm, you should compare to Yule Goat.

Yule Goat is not in the eidolon orb shop, so not everyone can get it, I actually missed it myself =(

Anyway, I redid the math using Yule Goat as base case. MLB fluffy is now worth a whooping 48% dmg improvement, but Hagith is now worth 25% REGARDLESS of how you value defender, 'cos Hagith and Yule Goat gives the exact same defender bonus with my grid. So, Hagith is half of a massive upgrade, that is still a big upgrade in my books. Seriously, 25% extra dmg easily means the difference between clearing and not clearing content.

Originally Posted by Slashley

And 3 turn burst cycles? That sounds completely out there. I suppose it could happen thanks to Michael, but christ. Even if true, that's some data that will literally only ever apply to one element in Kamihime ever. Let's not use the most favorable situation possible - an insane team that is absolutely perfect and above anything else in possible in the game - as the very basis of maths.

Shingen, Lugh, Tish, Mike AW plus literally anyone you want - even an R if you want. If you play light, hopefully you rerolled into at least one of those himes, so it's just 2 mtix. And for completeness, this is how it works:

After first burst, Shingen is at 50 BG from Mike AW and soul weapon, everyone else is at 20
Shingen's skill 1 gives 35 BG with a 3T CD, so she's just 15 BG short from bursting - 2 single attacks will get her there
Lugh's skill 2 gives 30 BG every turn for 2T after burst, so she's at 80. On 3rd turn, her skill still gives 20 BG, so she literally doesn't even have to attack and is ready for burst
Tish 2nd abi has 3T CD and every skill used gives 10 BG. She has 2 other 6CD skill, so if you stagger them, you have an extra 10 BG every 3T. She's at 40 BG and will need 2 DA to hit 80 to be ready for burst - tiara set plus some combination of Shingen DATA buff, fluffy DATA buff, Mike AW DA buff will easily get you there
Mike AW needs 1 DA and 1 TA to hit 70 - easily doable with tiara set and Tish's TA buff
Generic hime needs 2 DA to hit 60, tiara set and Tish's TA buff should be more than enough (remember Tish's buff is 5T, so you can basically keep it up on two himes almost all the time)
I haven't even mentioned Shingen's 20 BG team-wide MEX on 6T CD and Mike's 20 BG team-wide on 7T CD - if you get really unlucky with DATA, just use one of these and viola, ready for FB

I do not consider 2 mtix and 4 tiara sets to be an insanely perfect team.

Originally Posted by Slashley

As you said later, this is entirely and thoroughly detached from reality. That's not how it works, at all. This kind of math would only work if losing HP would linearly (not exponentially like with Vigor) translate into damage lost.

If you don't like vigor, use pride, which is more accessible (I have it in my grid I just ignored it 'cos it makes things unnecessarily complicated.) There literally isn't a situation where neither vigor nor pride is of value. In any case, if you're seriously saying that defender is a useless skill and having more of it does basically nothing, we somehow have had completely difference experiences from this game then. I've min-maxed like crazy in the past for a 10%-ish boost in my hp so I can clear stuff like GO more comfortably. Enemy does DATA, too, and you want some safety margin.

Originally Posted by Slashley

I don't even value Exceed. You need one Exceed, plus one if you have P2W Eidolon.

Exceed isn't just about the cap though, it acts like an additional dmg multiplier. Going from zero to 1 FLB exceed S will boost your non-PF FB dmg by 6%. If FB is half your dmg per burst cycle, that's a 3% boost overall (doesn't matter how long your burst cycle is for this calculation, only where the dmg is coming from.) Compare to a FLB assault S when you're already at 189% if you're only focused on assault, gives a 5% dmg boost - if you say 5% from that extra assault is a big deal, the 3% from exceed should at least be on your radar, given that double assault/pride weapons are extremely rare (no one is saying sacrifice assault for exceed, only that exceed is valuable especially as a second skill.)

Originally Posted by Slashley

I'm pretty sure the raid would've been way easier to kill with four people just running their normal Grids - with or without Andromedas -assuming they were decently strong. If they weren't... well, oh boy was it a monstrous thing to do if you made two newbies waste four Ori and 4x3800 slvl points on those weapons.

Those were my alts, I don't experiment on newbies (yes, I run two active alts alongside my main, call me whatever names you want, I'm actually used to it.) And 4 ori isn't much once you get the hang of GO - I have spent 16 ori just buying weapons for my light grid and 12 ori for my dark grid. If you ignore the bad FLBs (like the UE examples you gave earlier) and/or don't try to build all elements at once, there's actually plenty of ori to spare.

In any case, that is also besides the point, I was just trying to make the point that even if ascension is capped, being able to hit that level of ascension has value. I know a lot of ppl, not just you, disagrees with that, so it's not really worth going into more.

For one, you should have 4 UE axes, so make an axe grid not a staff grid with Hercules axe.

i'm pretty sure we had only 3 UE axes (just checked my inventory)
we had, however, Assault/Defense axe from event, means 6 axes grid is still viable, with Herc axe

Originally Posted by Dejnov

So Slashley, I think this quote from you is the biggest mistake you're making in understanding Kamihime and the ability to create synergy.

What you want is the largest marginal gain in a non-multiplied attribute; rather than adding marginal gain to a highly multiplied attribute. This is very different than prioritizing assault over defense over ascension, etc. After you have a decent multiplier, greater returns are built around adding a multiplier to a skill that doesn't have it. After you have 150% assault, every marginal point only adds 0.4% of the amount. At that point there is very little value to keep adding more to that source of multiplier. The same for exceed and defender and everything else.

I am fully aware, but here is the problem: Non-Assault and non-HP stats, in general, suck total ass.

Let's see what exists:
Assault: You stack this BECAUSE it works. It's always there for you, and you stack so much of it that gains in this dwindle (and I am totally using dwindle as a term for this post). And it's STILL the best stat, even after the effect has dwindled! This is the baseline for budgets, the thing that everything is compared to.
Pride: Effectively Assault for all intents and purposes. It's there even at 100% (where it is slightly weaker than Assault), and grows in power as you lose HP (becomes equal to Assault at 70% HP, and only grows stronger from there). A friend in times of need. Budgeted equally-ish to Assault.
Defender: HP. Can't deal damage if you're dead. A vital part of the any strat, whether it is the usual "kill it before it kills you" or an endurance/tanking/healing/whateveryoucallit build. Only bad if you can somehow guarantee your opponent won't be fighting back, which isn't realistic. Not a damage stat, but budgeted well.
Rush: Double attacks are cool, but the problem is that this simply pales in comparison to Assault in damage output - even when you consider increased Burst frequency. Budgeted too low.
Barrage: Triple attacks are even cooler, but the problem is that this simply pales in comparison to Assault in damage output - even when you consider increased Burst frequency. Budgeted too low.
Stinger: Crits! A separate damage modifier! ... except it sucks. So each skill level is what, 0.005 chance to dealing 0.2 more damage? 0.001 more damage per skill level then? Compare to Assault's 0.005 increase per skill level (before dwindling effects). In other words, Assault needs to dwindle down to 20% efficiency before Crit becomes worth it - ON ELEMENT. It is budgeted far too low. Due to being a different modifier, "useful" for memes and damage records when it procs, at least until we get the Crit balancing patch.
Exceed: This is useful for one thing: Damage cap increase. While you generally don't need much of that, some is very nice to have. As an added bonus, extra damage. The problem is, the extra damage is horrendously budgeted, and you have to remember that SSR Hime already start with 500% of it so it is immediately suffering from the dwindling problem. In general, if I recall right, if you have the choice it's "always" more damage output to get more Assault than Exceed (again, talking if you don't need more cap). This might not apply to the insane Light team which bursts every 3 turns, but outside of that specific perfect team, Assault should be the better choice. As such: damage increase component budgeted too low if you're running a full SSR team, due to dwindling issues. And I didn't even touch PF dwindling issues where you start at 700% modifier...
Ascension: Increased heals. Now, this is nice, but it suffers from three inherent problems: 1. You need to use Healers to make use out of this, and outside of Cass/Andromeda you're not guaranteed to have any 2. Even if you do have Healer(s), there is a lot of content that doesn't output heal-able damage (think current Thunder and Light Rags) 3. The heal increase is pretty low. Now, Ascension CAN help, but you need to stack a lot of it. Which... cuts into the amount of Assault and/or Defender that you can have. Which... well, isn't a good thing. So Ascension isn't so much of a stat that you WANT, it's more of a stat that you NEED and only for SPECIFIC content. On one side of the coin it is budgeted far too low to be useful to splash into your Grid, and on the other side of the coin Grids focused on this stat have awful damage output due to loss of Assault.
Elaborate: You could probably increase the effect of this by ten times and it'd still be awful. But at least then it would have the niche of being useful for multi-hit meme teams. For now, complete garbage due to being budgeted entirely wrong. Not sure what went wrong here, did devs forget how the ability damage formula?
Technica: Apparently a thing on DMM, can't comment on it.
Vigor: A separate damage modifier! And actually doesn't suck total monkey balls! Almost as powerful as Assault (we're talking budgeted from 85% Vigor() to 97% Vigor(++) of Assault damage values, which is great), but without ANY of those nasty dwindling problems! There's just one little problem. If you're not at FULL HP, Vigor will just abandon you. Halfway point is already at 83%. As such, the best uses of Vigor brings Healers and Ascension... and that eats into your damage output. And suddenly you're not doing all that much more damage because you sacrificed Assault for stats that'll help keep Vigor up - while still being at great risk of losing your damage output from damage taken. Is it possible to make Vigor work? Yes. But unless you can guarantee that your enemy will not even be looking at you angrily, it's a risky game to play. For damage output, this is by far the best stat after Assault (and I mean AFTER Assault, because you'll have MORE Assault than Vigor, simply because Assault IS budgeted better AND is risk-free!) but comes at great risk. Splash into it if you can, but don't heavily dip into it unless you have some serious plan. Remember, Vigor is NOT your friend in need, but rather like that rich mafia boss next door - a great friend to have when things are going great, but he is not going to help you if shit hits the fan. Budgeted extremely well, but risky.

So, see the problem here? What exactly DO you want outside of Assault and HP? All the other options are budgeted extremely poorly (on purpose!). As such, while you are technically correct that stacking different modifiers is great, the reality is entirely different due to the way the devs implemented the other skills.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Lastly triple skills at MLB are better than a dual skill weapon at FLB. Your (30+30) vs. (20+20+20) is inherently flawed, since you're thinking linearly. If you're at 150% assault and 50% defender, you should be multiplying the assault level by 0.4 and the defender at 0.66. This would change the estimation from (30 assault + 30 defender) vs. (20 assault + 20 defender + 20 ascension) to (12 assault + 20 defender) vs. (8 assault + 13.3 defender + 20 ascension) or 32 effective skill points to 41 effective skill points. This is why Hime weapons like Vishnu Glaive ranks higher priority than Shamash Book (both triple skill weapons). The vigor from the glaive is a new multiplier vs. the extra pride from the book which is still plain assault.

I don't think it is flawed, because of the above. Even with dwindling, Assault reigns supreme due to budgeting.

The problem with triple-skill weapons... is that there are only a few actually good skills to have. So, you usually have something like Assault + Defender + something useless. Is that better than Assault + Defender + nothing? Yes it is. However, until now, that's been because triple-skill SO FAR has GUARANTEED 30 skill levels in all three skills. But now, we're getting Olympia weapons which only get 20. So is 20 Assault + 20 Defender + 20 something useless (effectively 40) better than 30 Assault + 30 Defender (effectively 60)? No, no it isn't. In order to be actually good, it NEEDS to have ALL THREE skills be highly desirable. And, if you read above... ... there really isn't many highly desirable skills in the game. This vastly limits the actually useful weapons.

Vishnu Glaive works because splashing a little bit of Vigor can work out great for you - you don't lose much Assault but you gain massive chunk of damage at full HP. But just as an example, if you were to think of a full Grid of Vishnus, Vigor's problems would start playing a massive problem. So, great Grid if you have a plan, but if you don't... they just pale to the always working full Grid of Shamashes. This example ignores reality on multiple fronts such as availability and Phantom weapons, but you get the point I hope.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

We do know the values though, unless you have good reasons to doubt the work of JP/EN wiki contributors: FLB rush 1.5%/4.5%/7.5% for S/M/L and FLB barrage is 1.5%/3.0%/4.5%.

Are they? Source? JP wiki only has 3% as 30 Rush() and 3% as 20 Rush(+). And 20 Barrage() only lists 1% and 20 Barrage(+) at 2%. These don't really match up to what you're saying.

Rush and Barrage scaling have been a hot topic for ages now, and you know what? We STILL DON'T KNOW THEM. And I can't blame anyone (except the devs) for that - measuring randomness is no small task.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Shingen, Lugh, Tish, Mike AW plus literally anyone you want - even an R if you want. If you play light, hopefully you rerolled into at least one of those himes, so it's just 2 mtix.

Is anyone going to reroll into a Hime, rather than... you know, Managarm? So that is most likely three MTs, but at least on Nutaku we've had One Year Future Specs available to use which has enabled us to MT Michael from one of the earlier MTs. Tish and Lugh would've required complete commitment to Light, though.

Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but I'm just saying that this specific team isn't THAT easy to get since you need to seriously commit to specifically Light for it.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

If you don't like vigor, use pride, which is more accessible (I have it in my grid I just ignored it 'cos it makes things unnecessarily complicated.) There literally isn't a situation where neither vigor nor pride is of value.

The other way to look at it is that one part of your Grid will always be crippled, har har. But really, unless you're specifically building a Vigor Grid, you should just consider Pride as Assault.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

In any case, if you're seriously saying that defender is a useless skill and having more of it does basically nothing, --

Did I ever say that, or even imply that? HP should've been basically #2 most important thing all the time in my posts...

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Exceed isn't just about the cap though, it acts like an additional dmg multiplier. Going from zero to 1 FLB exceed S will boost your non-PF FB dmg by 6%. If FB is half your dmg per burst cycle, that's a 3% boost overall (doesn't matter how long your burst cycle is for this calculation, only where the dmg is coming from.) Compare to a FLB assault S when you're already at 189% if you're only focused on assault, gives a 5% dmg boost - if you say 5% from that extra assault is a big deal, the 3% from exceed should at least be on your radar, given that double assault/pride weapons are extremely rare (no one is saying sacrifice assault for exceed, only that exceed is valuable especially as a second skill.)

See above. Sure, Exceed increases your damage... but if you have the choice, Assault will increase your damage even more. Even after dwindling, it'll still increase not only your Burst damage, but also... well, ALL the damage!

And again, might not apply to bonkers Light team. Because really, let's not have a team of three exact Light Hime as the basis of EVERYTHING.

Originally Posted by Geo

Weapon grid is more important than having a p2w Eidolon when it comes to power up a team.

Having a p2w Eidolon is more important than whatever other options there are.

My view on this is that Grid is something that you WILL get. It will take time, and I don't mean weeks. Or months. More like YEARS, as Kamihime is a marathon game. But, you will get it eventually. As such, P2W Eidolons are the most important thing due to limited availability.

Originally Posted by Geo

Olympian Eidolons will be the best option available for f2players. But again, the p2w ones are (generally, or always?) better.

Outside of some veeeeery niche things like what Bear mentioned, yes.

Olympia Guardians will be the best F2P Eidolon. Nobody is arguing about that. We're arguing about by how much. My take is is that it will be a small upgrade, while some believe it to be the second coming of our Lord and Savior Thor.

I know this isn't why people play this game, but has the storyline set up in the introduction and main quests been permanently abandoned at this point? It's been years since we had any story progression.

official answer is "the story is continued in events"

The main story, to me, was more about what Testament is, and less about stopping Ragnarok. So that story is pretty much finished as we discovered the origins of the organization.

The Events and the new himes released don't even mention Testament the group anymore.

I am digging this up because a few posts above, I ranted about weapon skills. Now, come April 2021, we should be getting a weapon skill balance patch. Skill changes to the above rant:

Pride: This skill was ruined by turning it into a reverse Vigor - no effect at full HP, and a separate modifier at low HP. This made Pride weapons UTTERLY USELESS, because it only kicked in when at low HP. You know, the very unfounded reason why these forums have always been afraid of Pride weapons. Anyway, DMM quickly realized their mistake and restored Pride to where it was before. So still budgeted equally-ish to Assault, just be ready that your Pride grids will be entirely useless for some days/weeks when the patch hits.

Rebellion: A new skill introduced after they reverted Pride change, the very same reverse Vigor. Staying at low HP is basically impossible without dying (well, certain individuals can probably do it, but not entire teams), so this skill is effectively useless. There is still ZERO information about this on DMM wiki after almost four months, so probably budgeted completely to shit, stay away until the next balance patch.

Rush: The effect of this has been doubled. I doubt that Rush is STILL good though. Oh, and it is likely that we STILL don't know the exact values provided by this, as the values on the DMM wiki continues to fluctuate. Budgeted too low.
Barrage: The effect of this has been doubled. I doubt that Barrarge is STILL good though. Oh, and it is likely that we STILL don't know the exact values provided by this, as the values on the DMM wiki continues to fluctuate. Budgeted too low.

Elaborate: BIG changes:
- HUGE increase in damage cap granted by this skill (2%/3.5%/5% always to 10%/15%/20% MLB or 15%/20%/25% FLB)
- Damage cap increase hard caps at 100% for weapon skills, and 50% for buffs. A total of 150% extra damage (2.5x the damage) is possible under ideal conditions.
- Damage over cap will be reduced by 96%, up from 90%. Past a certain point, damage will be reduced by 99%. (no idea, does this apply to EVERYTHING from that point on, or past a certain tresholds? If so, what are these tresholds?)
- No change to damage increase, so this portion is still garbage.
The important thing here is that Elaborate ACTUALLY increases damage cap properly now. The skill is still fairly bad... but it does allow for meme builds. For example, Phaleg has an Elaborate(++)/Vigor(+) weapon. You can use five of these to literally double the damage output of Medea. Now, this Grid will be absolutely awful for MOST content, but may be extremely powerful in some. In fact, once third generation P2W Fire Eidolon comes out with her 100% Assault, I fully expect quite a lot of people to run Wind Tower with such a setup (well, you'll probably only use 3-4, but whatever). So, it's bad, but possible to make it work if you have a plan.

Vigor: No real changes to the weapon skill itself, but Eidolons with Vigor will have their own frame. In other words, Vigor will still hard cap at 100% from Grid/buffs, but you can get up to 180% through the use of Eidolon passives (not that you'll ever want to). So still budgeted extremely well, but risky.


And while we are talking about Vigor... does anyone know does overcapping Vigor work?
By that I mean, let's say you got 200% Vigor from your Grid. Yes, that's impossible, but humor me. Now, Vigor hard caps at 100%, so you get double damage at full HP. But since you have base 200%, if you go down to 83% HP, does this mean that you're STILL doing double damage despite losing half the effectiveness of Vigor? Or does the hard cap reduce your Vigor to 100% before HP checks, so you're down to half damage increase despite having 200% base Vigor?
The DMM wiki claims that overcapping works, but has anyone actually tested this?

Just wanted to post that its cool that you are still writing stuff on this site even though people hardly use it anymore. Always nice to see writeups about whats coming next.

Originally Posted by Alaryn

Just wanted to post that its cool that you are still writing stuff on this site even though people hardly use it anymore. Always nice to see writeups about whats coming next.

Ha ha ha, I know...

I think a combination of Nutaku Kamihime dying and official Discord is what killed these forums off. People much rather use Discord, despite it being an awful, awful program and despite forums being a far better way of storing information. So as long as I keep playing Kamihime, I'll keep trying to post things here. I doubt I'll make a difference, but you don't know until you've tried.

Other posts that are coming up once I can be arsed to do them are T4 Soul buffs (for the weak ones, June 2021) and Thunder Tower stuff (coming early next month). Not sure in which order.

so, things still stay as they are, even after...