Thread: Olympian weapons vs demon UE FLB

Wanted to see how the upcoming Olympian weapons match up to past demon UE FLBs - commonly considered some of the best f2p weapons - so I tried to match the UE FLBs against what I consider to be the closest Olympian weapon:


I'll let ppl draw their own conclusions, but I plan to farm the heck out of these raids assuming I'm strong enough to do them/leech.

If you notice any typos or numerical errors, let me know and I will correct them. All other suggestions such as layout and color scheme EDIT: and how or what information is presented will be ignored - if you dislike both JStar's and my layout, go make your own please. I don't know how to make the image full-sized in the post; admin feel free to edit if you can fix that for me.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Wanted to see how the upcoming Olympian weapons match up to past demon UE FLBs - commonly considered some of the best f2p weapons - so I tried to match the UE FLBs against what I consider to be the closest Olympian weapon

These guardian weapons are, quite simply, phenomenal content for all players barring some triple skill Hime weapons (that require bricks). I'm looking at the thunder gun, water lance, wind bow and glaive, dark gun, and the light staff. Only Fire is somewhat limited with the pride/exceed weapon, but for the other elements there are combos of assault, exceed, defender, vigor, and ascension that can support teams as needed.

Losing 5 to 15% assault for some augment/sustain skills is great value. Some like the water lance, thunder gun, and wind glaive create new builds going forward.

My favorite is the thunder gun atm!! The synergy between assault, ascension, and vigor (combined with healing and damage cuts within thunder) can help create a very powerful high damage/high sustain team. I'm thinking- Dian, Marduk, Raiko and BaalU and Phul.


Dejnov.

Finally there's a useful spreadsheet on what the weapons do.
Though, why do you list the "Y% healing done" in Ascension? Since everyone who has any MLB SSR Eidolon Grid (that's like, played the game for... 6-8 weeks?) is going to cap out on Heals, that doesn't seem like useful information. It's irrelevant garbage just taking space for not reason.

You probably made a mistake with the Dark Gun and Water Axe, 20%/20% Pride(++)/Assault doesn't seem quite right. Probably meant 20%/30%. Though, I'm not entirely sure if listing the second value is necessary - just listing Assault at 100% should be enough, and maybe add a note for (Pride).

Originally Posted by Dejnov

-- I'm thinking- Dian, Marduk, Raiko and BaalU --

I mean just remove BaalU for Thunder Aphro and you have the meta team as far as I know it, even without any changes to your Grid...

The problem with Guns is that... well, it's a Gun. Ideally you should be looking at Lances/Glaives/Bows/Hammers. There are several decent ones here, but building a Grid solely out of them *shudder Wind* is going to be some complete shit until drop rate increase... which is uh, what, 10 months away? Did anyone record the date for that?

Originally Posted by Slashley

Though, why do you list the "Y% healing done" in Ascension? Since everyone who has any MLB SSR Eidolon Grid (that's like, played the game for... 6-8 weeks?) is going to cap out on Heals, that doesn't seem like useful information. It's irrelevant garbage just taking space for not reason.

It actually does matter. Atum heals for 2k (or higher, JP wiki says 3k, which is higher than I remember but I haven't tested her recently) but actually only heals 20% hp, so you can't even make full use of her heal unless your hp is at least 10k. Adding ascension actually further raises that break point. Sol technically has that problem, too, but not as extreme (33% heal capped at 1.8k) - you won't run into it once you hit around 8-9k-ish hp depending what size ascension you use.

Originally Posted by Slashley

You probably made a mistake with the Dark Gun and Water Axe, 20%/20% Pride(++)/Assault doesn't seem quite right. Probably meant 20%/30%.

Checked it against JP wiki, it looks fine to me: Pride (++) at SL20 is 10% base assault + 20% pride multiplier; assault at SL20 is 10% base assault with no pride multiplier, so it becomes 10%+10% / 20%+0% = 20%/20%.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Though, I'm not entirely sure if listing the second value is necessary - just listing Assault at 100% should be enough, and maybe add a note for (Pride).

It depends on your playstyle. If you like to eat OD to build burst, the pride effect gets amplified by your burst multiplier and can add up to a lot of dmg. It's also relevant to himes like Kali that revolves around living life on the edge. Just ignore it if neither of those applies to you.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Finally there's a useful spreadsheet on what the weapons do.
Though, why do you list the "Y% healing done" in Ascension? Since everyone who has any MLB SSR Eidolon Grid (that's like, played the game for... 6-8 weeks?) is going to cap out on Heals, that doesn't seem like useful information. It's irrelevant garbage just taking space for not reason.

The %healing is straight addition to all healing values for nearly every Hime I have. The cap is 100% additional healing (4 thunder guns). You should try out ascension; you might not be understanding how it works correctly.

You probably made a mistake with the Dark Gun and Water Axe, 20%/20% Pride(++)/Assault doesn't seem quite right. Probably meant 20%/30%. Though, I'm not entirely sure if listing the second value is necessary - just listing Assault at 100% should be enough, and maybe add a note for (Pride).I mean just remove BaalU for Thunder Aphro and you have the meta team as far as I know it, even without any changes to your Grid...

Not a mistake at all... now you see why some of us are actually very very interested in these triple skill wonders. As to Taphro, that'll happen in March.

The problem with Guns is that... well, it's a Gun. Ideally you should be looking at Lances/Glaives/Bows/Hammers. There are several decent ones here, but building a Grid solely out of them *shudder Wind* is going to be some complete shit until drop rate increase... which is uh, what, 10 months away? Did anyone record the date for that?

That problem goes away when every other weapon in your grid is a double assault weapon (i.e. Assault L+ no defender like the Angel weapons) and the phantom guns (assault/ascension/vigor)... suddenly that 30% defender can be a significant amount of defender in a thunder grid.

What would you have a grid of 6 assault/defender and 3 assault/exceed weapons (like lance in light) or a grid with 1 defense+ 3 assault/exceed and 6 assault/ascension/vigoras weapons (phantom gun, 3 union thunder lances, 6 thunder guardian guns)?

I'm leaning to the OP second option!!


Dejnov.

PS. Thats about 159 assault and 48 vigoras ~3.83x assault (prior to elemental- 2 kirins x 3.7 = 14.1x assault) at full hit points and way too much healing to keep yourself at full!!

Let's do some theorycrafting:

One of the great choices going forward is for water: The lance is assaultL and sprout (vigor/ascension) and the axe is PrideL and Strength (strength/defender). You'll still need 3 exceed weapons so let's say you have the old union bows (assaultL, exceedS) to finish the grid.

I'm leaning to the phantom lance being the better option (plus Shingen lance) so a final grid can be 4 guardian lances, 1 shingen lance, 1 phantom lance, 3 union bows, and 1 guardian axe. That's gives you 163% Assault, 32% vigor, 90% exceed, 96% ascension, and 26% defender. You're a little weak on the hitpoints, but you'll hit very hard. Base assault bonus (no element) at full hit points is approximately 247%. Pride/vigor is a natural combination that helps mitigate the hit fast go home aspect of the grid as it starts kicking in when vigor starts dropping, so you can try swapping out one of the old union bows for another axe. That'll get you 162% assault, 32% vigor, 60% exceed, 96% ascension and 36% defender. That a base assault bonus at full hitpoints of 245%, some more hitpoints (nice since you're light) and two prides for 20% assault for when you're at half health and your vigor is gone (183% base assault). Those are solid combos with mostly F2P weapons


Let's look at Dark:
The dark guns prideL, strength (assault/defender) are the best choices in that list. I like the dark arcane also, but dark has no real healers to abuse it.
I can see a union hammer (3), 2 other dark assault hammers, phantom hammer, and those dark guns replacing the old union axes in a grid (more assault/less defender better offense ability). You do have that one vigoras/defender staff from the advent event, but let's not consider it for now.

A good new grid would be phantom hammer, 3 union hammers, 2 assault hammers (MLB), and 4 dark guns. That's a total of 205% assault, 90% exceed and 40% defender. That's a ton of offensive ability plus you have 4 sources of pride, which means at half health you get another 40% assault.

Let's look at Wind:

Frankly, wind got the best draw. All weapons are insanely good. Your best bet is to make a phantom glaive grid, 5 guardian glaives, 3 guardian bows, and 2 guardian arcanes. That's a total of 149% assault, 40% defender, 90% exceed, 31% vigor and 54% ascension. Base assault is 226% assault with decent defender, exceed and healing. You are a bit of a glass cannon as you have no pride weapons in that mix... though those old union swords are pride, exceed. But the beauty here is that this grid is totally F2P, rivals the best you had earlier and abuses triple skill weapons substantially.

Add on the Wind Guardian and you have a team that rocks and is totally F2P. Ticketing 1 or 2 Himes (Azzy, CuChu) is all that's needed. And you don't need old weapons either!!


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- but actually only heals 20% hp, so you can't even make full use of her heal unless your hp is at least 10k. --

ALL Heals and Regens in Kamihime work like that. ALL of them Heal for x% of max HP.

However. This "x" is extremely high. Like, I wouldn't wonder if SR Nike - you know, the Hime you start the game with! - healed for 50%. Is that a fact? Well... no. Because these numbers aren't really recorded anywhere, since they're SO HIGH it's hard to find the breakpoint before you already reach the healing cap! I also call bullshit on that mere 33% from SSR Sol. That sounds reeaaally low and would require 5454 max HP to cap. Well, I guess everyone had that at the point that Sol Awakening came to be a thing... the original 1500 Heal would then require 4545 max HP to cap. Which is easy to reach with just a SSR Eidolon Grid. But again - I really doubt that it's as low as 33%. The only thing I've EVER not hit cap with was Belobog's Regen. Which I think is 4% per tick, at 300 max. This would require 7500 HP to max out, which is something that I absolutely didn't have against Dullahan, despite having played the game for a couple of months at that point.

Thus, because of the way that Kamihime Heals work, increasing your Healing done is pointless - instead, increasing the cap is what matters. This is why the Kaiser passive effect is useless, since you're always capped on your Heals and it doesn't increase that cap.

As far as Atum goes... you do realize that 10k HP is trivial to reach these days, right? Most F2P teams are running 12k-18k HP, and whales are running 10k+ base HP on their Souls - and that's obviously before any Defender they may or may not be running! Regardless - sure, let's say that Atum actually DOES need this increased Heal amount. That's still exactly ONE HIME in the entire game. Is it really necessary to inform players of the interaction of that one single Hime, when for everyone else they reach the cap easily anyway?

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Checked it against JP wiki, it looks fine to me: Pride (++) at SL20 is 10% base assault + 20% pride multiplier; assault at SL20 is 10% base assault with no pride multiplier, so it becomes 10%+10% / 20%+0% = 20%/20%.

Soooo... you're saying that you intend your spreadsheet to be read like "20% at full HP, and add 20% when at low HP"? Oh, okay. I don't see the reason why you would make your readers run through minor mental exercises like that instead of just presenting them a "20% at full, 40% at low", but fair enough, I guess?

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- If you like to eat OD to build burst, the pride effect gets amplified by your burst multiplier and can add up to a lot of dmg.--

Something like this is never reliable, universal information though. Triggers and Overdrives may allow for that in some content, but won't allow for it in a lot of it.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The %healing is straight addition to all healing values for nearly every Hime I have. The cap is 100% additional healing (4 thunder guns). You should try out ascension; you might not be understanding how it works correctly.

See above, I'm pretty certain you're the one who doesn't understand the basics of how Heals work in Kamihime. Which is no surprise, as few people do thanks to the Heal % is so high and the caps are so low.

Again, increasing Healing done does nothing for you. The important part is increasing the cap which is extremely low - once the cap is raised, you will have enough HP to get the full Heal anyway. Oh, and the Ascension cap is 200%, meaning triple the amount Healed. So you get Andros healing from 1600 -> 4800 in raids.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

That problem goes away when every other weapon in your grid is a double assault weapon --

So, if double Assault weapons are so plentiful and easy to get... why not just fill your Grid with them?

Oh right, it's because they're not that easy to come by and you're talking dreams out of your ass. For example:

Originally Posted by Dejnov

What would you have a grid of 6 assault/defender and 3 assault/exceed weapons (like lance in light) or a grid with 1 defense+ 3 assault/exceed and 6 assault/ascension/vigoras weapons (phantom gun, 3 union thunder lances, 6 thunder guardian guns)?

Six Thunder Olympia Guns, huh. Let's see. Assuming that you get all four copies each month, you'll have yourself done in six months - assuming that you grind yourself through 350 Thunder Olympia raids. Every. Single. Month. And that's just ONE element. So you'd be done in... June if you managed that 350 raids in the last week of 2019, but more likely in July 2020. And let me remind you - that's 2100 raids over this timespan, worth of 10500 Seeds. And all of your loot goes towards those specific weapons - and nothing else. Meanwhile, what about the rest of your elements?

Of course, you can say that you'll just run them at low Limit Breaks. Feasible. If we lower it to just two Guns per month, you'll have your set of six weapons at 0-Stars in March/April. This has the added benefit of only requiring 100 raids per month (500 Seeds per month, down from 1750 Seeds per month). But you're still running a Phantom Gun Grid with six 0-Star weapons, which is... not... the best of ideas.

Are you seeing the problems of reality yet? This is assuming the same droprate as Magnas, which I don't know will it be the case or not.

But we're not even done yet. Leaving aside the irony of still leaving old UE weapons (that aren't accessible anymore and we only ever got two out of) in this ideal, fantasy Grid of yours... if anyone is going to commit so big on Thunder, why wouldn't they... I dunno, make use out of those Marduk (Assault(+)/HP(+)/Exceed) and Raiko (Assault(++)/Pride) Hammers? I mean, over the period of six months, there are going to be three Towers. And that's 3x 15000 Medals - just one Tower away to FLB both of those. At least it's easy to think where the Marduk Hammer goes, as they're a straight-up upgrade compared to UE Lances. I'd say replace the non-existing one.
You also forgot to include Soul weapon. You're not going to run Dartagnan with an Olympia Gun, right? ... right?

tl;dr; You have your head in the clouds. I'm not sure what you're basing your theorycrafting on, but I'm preeeeetty sure it isn't reality.


And posting this, I see that you edited your second post from just a one-liner into something bigger. Don't have the time to read it right now, will comment on it after sleep+work.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Slashley raving like a lunatic, frothing at the mouth and wildly swinging at windmills

I'll admit... you got heart kid! And you're a fighter so that's also a plus. But, unfortunately, your counter argument makes you sound like a bit of an idiot, since you weren't using your brain. It's pedantic, mundane, procedural, and focused in minutiae instead of the bigger picture. You happen to have a scarcity mindset and you need to change it to a growth mindset. Otherwise you'll never see the possibility that's staring you right in the face. You also have to familiarize yourself with what you're arguing over. I'll hit some of the points you brought up, but I'm not usually interested in the weeds (big picture thinker myself).

1) When talking about ascension weapons, I happen to paraphrase the intent of the weapon. The quoted bonus I was stating is the healing cap bonus (which dreamlitz lists first and also includes in his notes below. good job dream!). A thunder gun at sl20 gives you a 24% increase in the healing cap- I just refer to that as additional healing. It also gives you 3% additional healing, but who the fuck cares... right? Please please please take a look at the weapon definition on the wiki so that you understand what we're talking about.


2) It's theorycrafting... it's supposed to be 'Field of Dreams' like; go big or go home! It was mostly trying to showcase some of the possibilities these weapons allow you to do and why the guardian eidolon is an awesome choice for anyone who doesn't have a P2W eidolon. These weapons and that eidolon allow you to compete with a P2W grid. You may not be totally on par, but you're damn close.


3) You don't need to have this all right now. As someone smart told me once (you Slashley!!), Kamihime is a marathon, not a sprint. These weapons work well when you have a ton of them (and you should work to get more), but they do wonders in just individual drops also. You're not limited to just using guardian weapons; no one is. You most definitely want to add the great Hime weapons you've FLBed already to the mix and you'll definitely want to replace the lower tier advent and union weapons you have from prior events. You don't have to do it in one burst... take your time and enjoy the journey!


4) A 0LB dual assault type guardian weapon (assault/vigor or assault/pride) at full skill is better than a FLB single assault skill weapon at full skill. The base stats, while helpful, aren't where you're getting your power from. It's just like a 0LB sl 20 SSR assault weapon is better than a MLB sl 20 SR assault weapon. That 3% makes all the difference. Does it help having it limited break? Hell yes. But you can use it a zero level just fine.


5) The thunder gun at 0LB sl 20 have 16% assault and 8.5% vigor. Because the vigor is on it's own frame, it's effect multiplies base assault and therefore it's much greater than adding marginal assault in a well built grid. Assume your a player with 150% assault and looking to add a FLB assault weapon (21% assault) or this MLB thunder gun (16% assault/8.5% vigor) at full hitpoints that 8.5% vigor is equivalent to 21.25% assault giving you 37% at full health. It also comes with 24% healing cap which increases all healing by 24%.
The pride/assault glaive for wind gives you 20% assault at full health and gives you another 10% at half health. It also gives you 10% defender. This is much better than any FLB assault(L)/defender(M) weapon I can think of. It is about 400 total power and 6% defense below a Hime (Frey's sword is a great example) weapon, but I'm thinking those are acceptable losses for the extra assault it's giving you. If you stick a guardian Eidolon on that build you now have a weapon that gives you 28% assault and 14% defender making this weapon at full health 7% more assault and only 2% less defender. It also gives you 14% more assault as you lose life.


6) Dreamlitz and I have talked about (and shown graphs) about how to combine vigor/pride weapons to mitigate the overall loss in assault power you get when you lose hitpoints. Without other sources you should have 2 pride weapons for every vigor weapon in your grid to maintain an assault advantage at high hitpoints (85%+) and also at low hitpoints (60% or less). In between you suffer a small 5% loss in assault power. Once again, please look at those graphs I did and digest them so that you understand what you're criticizing. You don't understand the value of vigor that these weapons give to players (new or old).


Dejnov.


P.S. If you are using a Guardian Eidolon instead of a P2W one, you want as many sources of vigor (and some pride) to mitigate the elemental loss you're going to have. You also want to minimize the amount of defender, exceed, and ascension you stick in your grid as you'll usually have enough and may go over the caps imposed by those weapons. The dark gun (pride/strength), wind glaive (pride/stalwart), thunder gun (assault/sprout) and water lance (assault/sprout) and axes (pride/strength) are all top tier choices for a guardian eido.

Originally Posted by Slashley

However. This "x" is extremely high. Like, I wouldn't wonder if SR Nike - you know, the Hime you start the game with! - healed for 50%. Is that a fact? Well... no. Because these numbers aren't really recorded anywhere, since they're SO HIGH it's hard to find the breakpoint before you already reach the healing cap!

These numbers are actually recorded on the JP wiki - they're slightly spotty but covers most healers. SR Nike is actually the exception not the rule in terms of when you pass that break point. Nike U for example is only a 25% heal with 1800 cap, so the break point is 7200.

There are also two other things you need to consider:

1. There are sources of ascension that raises the healing cap but not the % healed, such as Sol AW's 3rd ability that makes the break point higher than at first glance.
2. Ascension weapons usually further RAISES the break point, NOT lowers it (e.g. Sol AW 33% 1800 heal has a break point of 5454, add 1 FLB Ascension (++) becomes a 39% 2520 heal with a break point of 6461 - adding more ascension further raises the break point)

I also call bullshit on that mere 33% from SSR Sol. That sounds reeaaally low and would require 5454 max HP to cap. Well, I guess everyone had that at the point that Sol Awakening came to be a thing...

Sol was my first mtix and my first AW. I was at around 6-7k hp when I had her. With her 3rd ability up, she should be healing for 2700. I distinctly remember that she healed for less than that and it made me wonder whether I was understanding her 3rd ability correctly and sent me researching on this precise issue we're discussing here. I didn't do any extensive testing, but 33% implies 2310 heal at 7k, which is consistent with my recollection of Sol only healing low 2k for me back then.

And since this is irrelevant garbage anyway, I will not bother testing it. Others are free to refute the JP wiki if they have hard evidence.

As far as Atum goes... you do realize that 10k HP is trivial to reach these days, right?

As I explained earlier, ascension will raise that break point. At max ascension, you're looking at 12k-13k break point depending what size ascension you're using assuming her heal is 2k. If it's 3k as stated by the JP wiki, the break point would be a whooping 18k-20k. Light isn't dark, we aren't flooded with defender weapons - if you missed the earlier events like Pheonix bow and Yule Goat axe, there aren't many great options for defender (which is why I keep running LB0 Tsuku bow in my grid and bought the St. Nick sword from ori shop as well as min-maxing eidolons to boost my base hp.)

Also, one application of ascension is turtle builds. It is actually difficult to hit 10k hp with extreme turtle builds 'cos you're usually using crappy weapons and eidos to make the whole thing work. These break points actually do bind if you're not careful in your ascension/defender ratios.

That's still exactly ONE HIME in the entire game. Is it really necessary to inform players of the interaction of that one single Hime, when for everyone else they reach the cap easily anyway?

If you don't have Atum, don't turtle or don't even use ascension, just ignore this information. If I exclude this information, someone with Atum can also come along and say my numbers are all wrong, the ascension on Olympian/UE weapons are very low because as you say, few ppl actually understands how healing works in KH. If I'm damned either way, I prefer to include more rather than less information.

Soooo... you're saying that you intend your spreadsheet to be read like "20% at full HP, and add 20% when at low HP"? Oh, okay. I don't see the reason why you would make your readers run through minor mental exercises like that instead of just presenting them a "20% at full, 40% at low", but fair enough, I guess?

If you want to know what the assault would be at X% HP, it's easier to have the numbers presented as base%/pride%, 'cos then the math is base% + X%*pride% - one multiplication and one addition. If I presented it as min%/max%, then calculation becomes min% + (max%-min%)*X% - that's one extra subtraction. Incidentally, listing base and pride multiplier separately is also how both the JP and EN wikis describe pride. Again, if I'm going to be damned either way, I choose the way that I personally find more helpful.

Something like this is never reliable, universal information though. Triggers and Overdrives may allow for that in some content, but won't allow for it in a lot of it.

I honestly don't understand the point of this statement. You asked me why I even bothered providing the pride multiplier, I replied with not one, but two examples of when it may be interesting to know the impact of pride and further stated that you're free to ignore that information if they do not apply to you and you're now criticizing one of my examples for not being universal (neither of my examples are universal btw, I mean, you CAN use Kali at full health, and lest I be accused of including information pertinent to exactly one hime, you can also use the following himes at full health and ignore that they're designed to not stay at full health: light Athena, Lugh, Tishtrya, Justitia, Nuwa (and everyone that's with her), Minerva, Ares and probably many others, these are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.) Look, any time you take dmg, pride kicks in, how's that for universal? What is the impact of that? That's what the pride multiplier is there for.

Interesting discussion. Keep up the good work dreams.