Thread: [Event 28] Crucible of Combat vs The Demon Envy (Union Event)

I thought the same but it is what it gives me in my 44k Wind Team, I felt it odd at first but you can try it and tell me if it's the same for you? Perhaps it's a visual bug and I only get the 5% in battle

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

Wasn't the bonus like 5% for the same element? 650 would imply the bonus is bigger than i thought at 40k attackpower.

I have no idea what Neverbloom is talking about, but Fire Eidolons have 10% stat boost for Fire Kamihime (and for some reason my Soul is gaining 20% extra, is that a feature?). So a Fire Eidolon with 500 HP 2000 Atk one is actually 550 HP and 2200 Atk for each Fire Hime and the usual 500 HP 2000 Atk for other elements. You can see this by playing around in the Edit screen, write down somebody's HP or Atk, unequip an Eidolon of same element, compare stats. Your total attack doesn't come into play in any shape or form, this is applies separately for each equipped Eidolon.

As such, Lilims with their 396 HP and 1596 Atk are actually 435 HP and 1755 Atk for their respective elements. Which is still utterly miserable. Typhon for example is 564 HP and 1752 Atk BEFORE the 10% boost.

The primary usage of Lilims is meeting the quota of the long-time-upcoming 50% Elemental Eidolons, which require you to have 5 Eidolons of the same Element for you to get the 50% - if you have less, you're better off with the 45% ones (out of which we only have Jack so far). When the time comes, I guess we'll need to make the calculations on is using sub-par on-element Eidolons worth that 5% Elemental or not. You see, Typhon - even with the boost - just doesn't compare to the good Eidolons such as Sphinx or Mii. It probably will be worth it though, since 5% is a big deal for anyone who doesn't have reliable access to P2W Eidolons.

Originally Posted by Neverbloom

I thought the same but it is what it gives me in my 44k Wind Team, I felt it odd at first but you can try it and tell me if it's the same for you? Perhaps it's a visual bug and I only get the 5% in battle

small edit for clarification: Dark team with Dark Lilim. Other dark eidelons in the team (should they matter in any way) are Jack and dullahan.
Did a Quick test, comparrison Lilim 1596 to Yatagarasu 1773 difference of 177
With Lilim to yatagarasu: on home page 42276 to 42399 : Difference +123 for yata
Mordred: 37539 - 37557 = +18
Satan: 37774 - 37792 = +18
Ren: 36274 - 36292 = +18
Belze: 35074 - 35092 = +18

Added Sol since she is neither dark nor fire: Lilim 35793 - Yata 35970 = 177

Will stick with Yata, the benefit is even with the bonus higher.

edit: got a little mistake at the top, its fixed now.

last edit: Yep Lilim gets +10% to the stat boosts. Rounded down. its exactly the 18 difference.

Oh, yeah, a couple of posts I've forgotten to reply to:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

+def buffs aren't so bad. They're functionally more like a weaker but longer duration/shorter cooldown damage cuts, but more importantly, stack multiplicatively with damage cuts and reflects.--

... do they? Because I honestly can't even tell the difference when they're up.
Since it depends strongly on how it is calculated. After or during -Atk. As in, does Sanahtlig's completely-fair-and-I'm-not-jealous-at-all -70% Atk, does he become immune if he got +60% Def or not?

With numbers:
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -0% Atk = 850 damage taken (-150, 15% reduction)
If it is after -Atk debuffs:
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -40% Atk = 600 damage before Def cut = 510 damage taken (-90, 9% reduction)
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -70% Atk = 300 damage before Def cut = 255 damage taken (-45 damage, 4.5% reduction)
If it actually stacks with -Atk:
30% Def buff against 1000 damage with -40% Atk = 450 damage taken (-150, 15% reduction)

Now, I could probably just look this up from JP wiki, but I'm honestly a lazy little cunt who likes it when people just tell me. I just don't see Def
buffs being useful at all - even 30% is hard to get, it doesn't help all that much (even though every little bit helps) and it doesn't even have 100% uptime.

Originally Posted by Naes

when does it come out? the eido shoppo,--

The encyclopedia in Sanahtlig's toolbox gives you a quick peek on all the upcoming patch notes etc. It's July 2018ish.

I... don't think you know where defense goes?

So the formula for damage against you as given on the wiki is currently:
{Enemy_Attack * (1 + atk_buff - atk_debuff) * 'weak point correction' * (1 - damage_cut_total)} / {10 * (1 + defense_bonus) * (1 + def_buff - def_debuff + assist)}

'weak point correction' = element resistance/weakness. Specifically, it's the 1.45x if you're weak, 0.75x if you're resistant.
The way I worded things in the previous post was a bit off. Reflects actually stack with damage cuts additively, hence 'damage_cut_total. Cao Cao's page on the wiki specifically cites her reflect stacking with Raikou's damage cut for a total of 70% damage reduction. Element resistance buffs apparently also get added to damage_cut_total.
defense_bonus = what your soul's been picking up from mastering certain lines
I'm not sure what the 10 is doing there, unless the internal enemy attack values really are just that much bigger than what we players see in game play. For our purposes, we can ignore the 10.

So basically, when you're going from no defense buffs/debuffs to +30%, you're dividing damage by 1.3 instead of 1. That's functionally the same as multiplying damage by 77%. 30% is also really freaking big as party-wide defense buffs go. Andromeda's def buff for another example is 20%; that'd reduce damage to 1/1.2 = 83.3%.

An example to put it all together...

Let x = enemy attack/base damage
You land -50% atk debuff (or more, but let's say we're in the world where the 50% debuff cap is in place). Enemy has no atk buff.
Damage is now 0.5x
Your element is strong against the enemy; that's another 75% multiplier, bringing damage to 0.375x
Your main eidolon has 10% resist against the enemy's element (Jack Frost versus Fire for example). As far as I understand, this actually goes to damage_cut_total. Let's add a 30% damage cut to that (Snow Raphael for example); damage_cut_total comes out to 40%. 0.375x * 0.6 = 0.225x
I'll ignore how much +defense your soul has to simplify things; also it's not like your kamihime benefit from that.
Let's say you throw on a +20% A-frame def buff (from Andromeda) and a +12% B-frame def bufff (from... Gabriel). That adds up to 32% for defense buffs. But, Snow Raphael and Gabriel have +defense assists. I don't know how large those are. I'm assuming 5% each, as the +attack assists I've seen are listed as 5%. So for those two, their defense buff total comes out to 37%
0.225x / 1.32 = 0.17x
0.225x / 1.37 = 0.164x
So damage has been reduced to just a bit over 1/6th of what it originally was. For Snow Raphael and Gabriel, just under 1/6th. And in practice, your soul probably has built up some +defense from at least the Joan of Arc line by now.

...looking back on damage cut stacking, I think Cupid suddenly just jumped up a notch here. If you throw Cupid into the example above, you can add on her 30% fire resistance buff (ok, at this rate we're basically running something like Andromeda/Ryu-Oh/Snow Raphael/Gabriel/Cupid for demonstration purposes). Damage_cut_total would change from 40% to 70%.
0.375x * 0.3 = 0.1125x
Keep the same def buffs; 0.1125x / 1.32 = 0.085. That's in between 1/11th and 1/12th the original damage.
Not that you'd actually run such a party (unless that's what you have with nothing better), but the example gets the process across I hope.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

-- but the example gets the process across I hope.

Nope. That was a lot of thorough text, but it didn't get the point across. You put in kinds of resistances in there to over complicate things, and I just can't be arsed to think it through right now.

Does +Def buff stack directly with -Atk debuffs or not? Because as long as -50% Atk and +100% Def together don't mean 100% damage reduction, it severely makes Def buffs weaker.

Seperate entrys. First part is boss damage, including boss buffs/debuffs. Thats the base damage that the boss inflicts per hit.
This gets changed in the second entry through your buffs/debuffs.

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

To take the example above. 1000 damage hit, with -70%atk on boss, and +60def on yourself would be (correct me if i made a mistake)
(1000*(1-0.70)) / (1+0.60)
300 / 1.6 = 187.5
the 60% def buff should be around 37,5% reduction ~~ i am in the same boat, i am tired as hell, should go to sleep.

They stack.

The difference is, when you say stack, you're probably thinking 'additively'. When I say yes, I mean 'multiplicatively'.

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

Seperate entrys. First part is boss damage, including boss buffs/debuffs. Thats the base damage that the boss inflicts per hit.
This gets changed in the second entry through your buffs/debuffs.

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

To take the example above. 1000 damage hit, with -70%atk on boss, and +60def on yourself would be (correct me if i made a mistake)
(1000*(1-0.70)) / (1+0.60)
300 / 1.6 = 187.5
the 60% def buff should be around 37,5% reduction ~~ i am in the same boat, i am tired as hell, should go to sleep.

You are correct.

Originally Posted by LeCrestfallen

-50%attack on boss and +50%def on you does not make 100% damage reduction.

They never would, since at best that's -75% damage reduction. You need twice as many % for buffs as you need for debuffs. 100% to halve damage on +Def, 50% to halve damage on -Atk.

That's just one of the reasons why buffs are so bad in Kamihime.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

They stack.

The difference is, when you say stack, you're probably thinking 'additively'. When I say yes, I mean 'multiplicatively'.

Thank you.