Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

**blubbergott** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by Slashley

But I'm not expecting much. It is truly sad that there are pretty much no more mathematically inclined people left.

This has annoyed me for a long time, for example when I said that at... uh, was it 84 AP? You hit the point where you can infinitely pot for Gem Quests and get your pots back. I did those maths very quickly, very poorly and with assumptions I shouldn't have made. I thought that people would call me out and ask how I reached that conclusion - but nobody did. People just took it for gospel. So is 84 AP the right number? I don't know. My pot count seems to be going up when I'm not spending them outside of Gem Quests, so the number should be below 107 AP. As such, I don't really care.

What's with that assumption? I'm definitely a mathematically inclined person, I just don't care if you pull any numbers out of your ass. It was obvious that you only made assumptions, how could you have a good enough sample size for a precise number? Furthermore who cares about the exact cut point? Even if you're below it, spending HE on it is worth it as long as you have enough to manage advents (and there are a lot of things factoring into if that's the case). I love theorycrafting, but pointless theorycrafting is just a waste of time.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Maths don't lie, mates. Don't like it? Prove it wrong.

Yes, maths don't lie, but your base assumptions are entirely wrong. You're assuming that the KH that would replace Nike contributes nothing at all to the team besides plain autohitting. From my point of view, a current dmm light team will always consist of: Michael, Metatron and most likely SSArty. That means Nike would be competing for the 4th slot against Take (way more damage than Nike would be doing outside of her assault buff + ~1m added to each burst), Tsuku (5% more def down, Nuke and blind) and maybe Sol if you really need heal/cleanse/dispel. And that's the thing, it's near impossible to just compare the damage/utility any of these adds to the assault Nike adds. It's definitely completely wrong to completely ignore it the way you did.

Lastly: For everything you assumed perfect scenario of endless fights. Is it possible that Nike outperforms the 3 mentioned above on long fights? Absolutely, though by far less than your calculations suggest. But that's an extremely rare situation. Almost nothing takes 12 turns to kill once you got a strong team for said element. Ea is by far the best solution for stun punisher fire situations. Those also don't really exist right now, but you wouldn't call her the "strongest hime in the game" just because she excells in one redundant thing, that would be ridiculous. If something is strong on paper, but has no use currently, it's still useless.

**Ikki** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by Slashley

Maths don't lie, mates. Don't like it? Prove it wrong.

They didnt attack your maths, they attacked nike's practical uses, which led to nike being useful only on GO/AQ5 where she can get to the point where your maths actually apply.

If dmm releases a hime that can deal 20M damage after 20 turns, on paper? shes amazing holy shit 20M dmg top tier stuff, practical use? garbage, this is the case of nike, you need to stop seeing things on paper and analize the practical use of stuff, there are no light mains on dmm that bother with nike at all, they are all dumb then cause they cant see the OPness of nike like you do? or they actually know shes garbage when things matter and not "on paper"? every one of them is wrong except you? please, get off your high horse.

This is the same damn thing that happened when you said that SSR baal wasnt amazing (even tho shes in every single top tier thunder team in dmm), and now with nike, no one bothers with her cause her "practical use" is trash, idc if a hime can increase my dmg a lot in 11 turns, i need frontloaded damage im not gonna reduce my dmg output waiting 11 turns on purpose just to make nike useful, thats retarded, this leads to the questions:

-Is this hime great in all content? if yes, this hime is top tier (thunder aphro belongs here just so you know nike and aphro aren't at the same lvl)
-Is this hime NEEDED only on specific content? if yes, this hime is situational
-You dont NEED this hime in any content?, then this hime is trash (this is where nike belongs)

Then you are gonna ask me why is nike trash? simple, her uses are only GO and AQ5, do you really need her to clear that content? ofc not, you dont need her, shes disposable, no light main bothers with her, if you really need light nike to clear content like that, then your grid and teams are garbage.

So all comes down to nike PRACTICAL USE, not on paper (you love to do this), 120% assault and double FB (oh great this hime is insane) .... after 11 turns (nvm, trash, bye), this is nike in a nutshell, oh and before you say that speed is not really needed and it only matters to clear the content, by being slow (aka taking many turns) on tower, you lose points, so yeah, gl using nike being a snail and getting a shit rank because of that.

**Mirage** · 06-01-2018

Was bullshit!

While Light Nike is stronger than on-element Hime, the actual number is lower. Around 14% is more correct - still a substantial upgrade over any on-element Hime, but not quite P2W Eidolon level.

So, let's go over that 14%.
Light Nike brings 180% Assault to 300% Assault, so 4 (100% base + Light Nike's buff + weapons) / 2.8 (100% base + weapons) = ~1.428
Because we can disregard Light Nike doing ANY damage off-element, you have 4 Hime (well, 3 Hime + Soul) dealing damage. So 4 Hime * 1.428 = 5.714 damage output.
5.714 / 5 (which would be the normal amount of damage you'd get with five on-element Hime) = 1.142
Thus, ~14% increase. Of course, we have to remember that at the very earliest, this applies on turn 11. Content doesn't take you that long? Don't bring Light Nike.

Of course, this number can be mathematically challenged fairly easily. For example, this calculation entirely ignores damage caps (pre-Light Nike 700k burst hitters would hit damage cap with Light Nike) or damage skills used by the potential fifth party member. Please do challenge it - I'd love to go through the subject more thoroughly.

Okay if we ignore the fact that her buff takes 11 turns to kick in, that's 14% damage increase over on-element Hime. Nothing seems wrong, except the fact that it assumes the Hime replaced by Light Nike will just auto-attack without any skill or passive.
Let's take example, with Dark team, since Dark is probably the weakest in damage, and slowest burst ATM: A ideal team will probably be: Hero+Satan/AmonU/Thanatos/Samael+Pluto+1 strong attacker (Let's take Chernobog in this case)+Wild card.

If that wild card is L.Nike: 14% increase.
If it's anything else, which ideally will be a second attacker, we have: Berith (Counter, a faster and stronger self stackable atk buff, berserk), Susanoo(again faster, stronger stack, strong nuke), Kali (Pride-based atk and DATA buff), Agalia (Strong crit buff). All of these easily provide more than a mere 14%, u dont need to be a math genius to see this, people have prove this by actually using them.
Same case for other element, an on-element will always bring more damage than Nike can (with maybe extra ultility as well), so even if we ignore the fact that off-element Nike can hardly last more than 3 turns in endgame content, the ided of bringing her for the extra damage is just retarded.
Now back to Light

Because when it comes to Light teams, nothing even comes close to Light Nike's potential.

This, this will trigger any Light user out there; in fact, it already triggered the Rank-90-in-Tower-Bear up there, he already confirmed that AW Mike, AW Metatron, Takeminakata, Frey, SSR Arty,.. would yield better result, but apparently you, who didnt even have any real experience with most of them, disagree for whatever reason.
Even just by looking at them on paper, this is what i see:
- Light Nike will bring either roughly 30% damage boost, or double FB at turn every 10 turns, coz having both is just unrealistic in endgame scenario.
- 30% damage is something easily achievable with any Meta-attacker coz they can easily do 2 to 3 times damage of a standard defender, debuffer,...
If we take the Double FB approach, so it is DFB every 11 turns, or 1 FB every 4-5 turns+Elemental dmg buff, dmg cut+Nuke+DA with AW Mike. It's clearly as day which one is generally better.

**Tanaka5** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by Slashley

Maths don't lie, mates. Don't like it? Prove it wrong.

Have you really lost it to the point where you can't distinguish between Maths and Fantasy?
What you've been talking is like 'I will assume 1=2 and therefore 1 + 3 =5'.

I love Maths but the difference is, the rest of us are being practical. We all do our maths and theorycraft, then we see if that theory is actually applicable without which it is pointless as Blubbergott already stated.

In my case, if I think something is good but less used, I try to ask people who have used it more and actually know more about it than me. That's called curiosity which is how you become more knowledgeable.

You on the other hand get hyped by your discovery and assume everyone else is wrong because in your fantasy world, it is actually godlike. That is ignorance. They're at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Mind you it isn't just nutaku players criticizing you but DMM players too. I have the fortune of asking multiple DMM players about this topic and they all had the same thing to say.
Bear already said that Light Nike is good but her use is niche. And she is actually no where close to what your fantasy maths suggest i.e beating 100% Eidos. She isn't also better than many of the current Light meta himes because it's not just damage or assault buff they bring. Each has it's own distinct use which isn't easily replaceable just because some other hime looks so good on paper. Bear is a Light main who has done well in rankings too and made a Light guide here which also covered Light Nike but even he isn't mathematically inclined according to you right?

Another DMM light main had this to say "She is a permanent bench warmer". Mind you these are people who don't have access to prior information like us and by default the only way they have concrete information is by doing number crunching. So everyone of them has already done their maths way before you could think of it.

You are talking about people who love experimenting with their teams and himes and doing stuff like R runs on AQ4, SR runs on GO or maybe even R runs with a few elements. They test it in theory and then test it in practice unlike you who only does it in fantasy (For a theory to be practical, the base assumptions have to be practical first which aren't and hence, fantasy).

Which is why your statement of "people not being mathematically inclined" is foolish to the extreme. You can continue living in your bubble but that will harm you (and anyone who falls for that advice) when all the future content DMM players base their teams on rolls out, if you continue being arrogant and ignorant rather than curious.

I never had a personal problem with you but now I sort of. You always love making assumptions and baseless ones at that.
Either DMM players are space whales or BaarU isn't good because too much micromanagement or Light Nike > 100% eidos and most recently, people not being mathematically not inclined except you and Sanahtlig. Because I observed if he corrects you or when you are making an argument, it is always "According to Sanahtlig's guide........" but when someone more knowledgeable from DMM comes around and corrects you, they are a space whale or not mathematically inclined when they have it tested both mathematically and practically.

Please stop with making assumptions about people just because it doesn't fit your mentality. No one will every give you advice or bother debating with you if that's what you do because it becomes plain annoying.

**HugMeTender** · 06-01-2018

Man, I thought 48 hours was enough time away to escape this argument .__.

**Ikki** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by HugMeTender

Man, I thought 48 hours was enough time away to escape this argument .__.

missinfo shall be purged.

**BlazeAlter** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by HugMeTender

Man, I thought 48 hours was enough time away to escape this argument .__.

this is probably gonna continue until one side that one guy stops replying or something

**Ikki** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by BlazeRai

this is probably gonna continue until one side stops replying or something

You mean 1 guy.

**BlazeAlter** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by Ikki

You mean 1 guy.

oh right, sorry

I corrected it

**Slashley** · 06-01-2018

Originally Posted by blubbergott

-- Furthermore who cares about the exact cut point? --

A newer player would. As such, it is a shame that topic was never returned to.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

Yes, maths don't lie, but your base assumptions are entirely wrong. You're assuming that the KH that would replace Nike contributes nothing at all to the team besides plain autohitting.

Which I did directly mention, and also said to challenge that mathematically. Whileas this:

Originally Posted by blubbergott

From my point of view, a current dmm light team will always consist of: Michael, Metatron and most likely SSArty. That means Nike would be competing for the 4th slot against Take (way more damage than Nike would be doing outside of her assault buff + ~1m added to each burst), Tsuku (5% more def down, Nuke and blind) and maybe Sol if you really need heal/cleanse/dispel. And that's the thing, it's near impossible to just compare the damage/utility any of these adds to the assault Nike adds. It's definitely completely wrong to completely ignore it the way you did.

Doesn't even try to. It's just waving a white flag and saying that "Hey, this team of mine is probably correct, but I cannot base it around any sort of math." Which is the exact opposite of what I was hoping for.

Yes, it is difficult, but it is possible to associate a rough numerical value to each of them.

Originally Posted by Ikki

If dmm releases a hime that can deal 20M damage after 20 turns, on paper? shes amazing holy shit 20M dmg top tier stuff, practical use? garbage,--

Why call it garbage, when it has potential? It will, of course, depend on content. But, against content where 20m damage from one Hime allows you to skip a Rage phase which is the only dangerous part of the fight, then it is amazing. Yet, you don't even look for the possibilities - you just decide that it's bad, and that's that.

Note that I cannot say if 20m one-turn damage from one Hime is good or bad on current DMM standards though (probably good since 0-Exceed full burst cap is around 8,6m), since their numerical values are highly, highly different from ours. Unlike modifiers, which then apply in the same proportion to whatever base numbers they have.

Originally Posted by Ikki

This is the same damn thing that happened when you said that SSR baal wasnt amazing (even tho shes in every single top tier thunder team in dmm), --

Speaking of which, to this day, nobody has brought fourth a single reason why she would be good. Every time, it's just "I dunno lol, DMM players use her, she must be really good!"
Which isn't a reason. At all.

The only thing that I can think of is that if Elem Res- debuff really does help debuffs land, then it's really good news for Thor. Like in Sloth rankings screenshot that I saw, all the teams had Thor and SSR Baal. Is that really the solo reason why people think she's good? "Hey, I saw this Hime on the rankings boards, she must be great!"
... yes... she has a niche of being Thor's buff-bitch. That's... great? I wish people would make actual arguments for SSR Baal. Such as, replacing Mammon due to her downsides in the far future. There, I got you started, why don't you finish that line of thought?

Originally Posted by Mirage

Okay if we ignore the fact that her buff takes 11 turns to kick in, that's 14% damage increase over on-element Hime. Nothing seems wrong, except the fact that it assumes the Hime replaced by Light Nike will just auto-attack without any skill or passive.

Umm, if you're taking that perspective, then you're running with the wrong number. An off-element Nike will give 43% to the four other Hime, so 172% is what you'll lose from taking Nike out, and you'll gain directly 100% just from auto-attacks of the new on-element Hime. So, your new Hime will need to be capable of doing 72% of damage from skills. This isn't exactly accurate since it assumes that four members of the team will do nothing but auto-attack, while the new member gets to use skills. But hey? We can roll with it.

Originally Posted by Mirage

Let's take example, with Dark team, since Dark is probably the weakest in damage, and slowest burst ATM: A ideal team will probably be: Hero+Satan/AmonU/Thanatos/Samael+Pluto+1 strong attacker (Let's take Chernobog in this case)+Wild card.

If that wild card is L.Nike: 14% increase.
If it's anything else, which ideally will be a second attacker, we have: Berith (Counter, a faster and stronger self stackable atk buff, berserk), Susanoo(again faster, stronger stack, strong nuke), Kali (Pride-based atk and DATA buff), Agalia (Strong crit buff). All of these easily provide more than a mere 14%, u dont need to be a math genius to see this, people have prove this by actually using them.

So, bring forth the actual numbers. And, don't forget to bring forth the reasons why you have the other Hime in there as well. That should be easy, but the premise is also important. Honestly? I'd be amazed if Berith already wouldn't be able to do it, since she's at 160% auto-attacks just from her second skill alone.

Originally Posted by Mirage

--
- Light Nike will bring either roughly 30% damage boost, or double FB at turn every 10 turns, coz having both is just unrealistic in endgame scenario.
- 30% damage is something easily achievable with any Meta-attacker coz they can easily do 2 to 3 times damage of a standard defender, debuffer,...
If we take the Double FB approach, so it is DFB every 11 turns, or 1 FB every 4-5 turns+Elemental dmg buff, dmg cut+Nuke+DA with AW Mike. It's clearly as day which one is generally better.

Curious. Would you mind giving basis on where the 30% comes from? Since Light Nike gives 43% to each Hime. And since this is Light, also herself. So a Light Nike team is dealing 7.15 damage each turn when compared to 5 damage without her - that means that a Meta-attacker needs to deal 2.15 by herself. Thus, would you mind expanding upon these?