Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Slashley

now you're the first one to say it out loud.

It really surprises me that you didnt realize it yourself, i mean, 30% elemental rst down, only 20% remaining, easily obtainable, why even use d'art anymore, thats the whole point XD i really thought you meant more specific reasons, but not something as obvious as Baal = no longer pigeonholded to d'art.

Slashley, do you seriously believe theory-crafting is superior to play-testing?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Slashley, do you seriously believe theory-crafting is superior to play-testing?

That's a tricky question, is it not?

First of all, play-testing is required to understand the baseline mechanics. This probably was the easy part, since I hear DMM basically just copy-pasted the mechanics from... uh, what was it again? Granblue?

After that, play-testing is required to get values from skills. Or at least used to be, some months ago suddenly all dbl+ and trpl+ values were input into DMM wiki. Since those are extremely tough to test, I can only assume that somebody found a way to get the values directly from the client.

After all that, yes. After all, why painfully play-test something when you can get the exact same results from a calculator?


However, you're not asking about the general sense, are you? Although you didn't directly say it, I assume you're referring to Light Nike. This is where theory-crafting gets difficult, since the amount of data required to accurately calculate results grows significantly. For example, you need to know how much HP enemies have so you can theorize how long the fight will take. DMM wiki has documented such values very poorly, but at least lately they've picked up on it as Ult and Rag Disasters and AQ5 HP values are properly documented - even if their Def isn't. As such, it becomes easier to just go in there and see how long it takes. Which is important to know, since Light Nike performs on entirely different levels depending on how long the fight takes and how you use her.

Originally Posted by Slashley

How much did you whale again~?
Just a reminder, when talking about perfect teams, it's not that easy. Miracle Tickets will get you a good way in a single element, at least.

Mhm... you know that this is a RNG game?
In my case I am playing since Icasurs Event and bought one MT and 2x 30$ SSR guranted.

My main team to start was dark, well it's almost perfect. Just need to Miracle one Hime and try my luck with Chernobog/Berith.
However my Water team is pretty much perfect... Yesterday I pulled Poeisdon from premium ticket and she will be nice, when we get her Awakening. Until then she'll be in my sub. What I could need is Wolf Maanaf but she will come out next year. Therefore there is no need to Miracle for water, because the Hime I want to fill my last spot will come out next year.
For Wind I could need 2 more wind SSR to be "perfect".

Who knows what I'll get for my other teams in the next months.
You just need luck and nothing more. Miracle Tickets are nice to fill the last 1-2 Spots and to get the KH you need.

So yea... You don't need to whale to have more than one perfect team, my friend.

About "perfect" teams... You can build more than one perfect team for some elements...
We are getting more and more good SSR Kamihimes and new strong AWs.
That's why there isn't "one perfect build" anymore.
Tbh Sanahtlig guide for team building is already out-dated, if we are talking about the future.

About blubb, well he has some crazy luck and he isn't a whale. So you shouldn't say "how much did you whale again?" but rather "Are you spending a lot of money in this game or are you casual?"
Just because he has some good luck, that dosen't mean he is a whale.
You question was rude.

Originally Posted by Sora

Mhm... you know that this is a RNG game?
--
You just need luck and nothing more. --

So yea... You don't need to whale to have more than one perfect team, my friend.
--
About blubb, well he has some crazy luck and he isn't a whale.--
Just because he has some good luck, that dosen't mean he is a whale.
You question was rude.

Luck is not something that continues, nor is it something you can manipulate through anything other than brute force, and even that is... ineffective.

I guess what I should've said is "temper your expectations about that" more than anything, but hey. Fair enough

Originally Posted by Sora

Tbh Sanahtlig guide for team building is already out-dated, if we are talking about the future.

I believe his intention was to look six months into the future at a time, so considering that it hasn't been updated for months... yeah. Especially since SSR power-levels keep climbing higher and higher as time passes. Which is logical, since DMM wants to keep people paying for better Hime. That's not a trend that's going to change.

We're not yet at the point where the guide has become useless, though.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Whileas thisoesn't even try to. It's just waving a white flag and saying that "Hey, this team of mine is probably correct, but I cannot base it around any sort of math." Which is the exact opposite of what I was hoping for.

Since you previously mentioned Svarog, here's a bit of number crunching:
Assuming 2.3 ability dmg modifier for Svarog nuke (probably the absolute minimum you'll ever have, should be higher in practice) and not enough damage to hit 300k/hit cap (which we prob will at that point, but lets go with that for simplicity) and your 180% assault. For simplicity i'll just take nuke on CD = 3 hits / 3 turns = 2.3 additional atk worth of damage each turn. So not completely disregarding the stackable atk buff, we already get a damage increase of 7.3/5 = 46%. That's more than Nike adds at turn 12. By then Svarog also adds 40% assault, resulting in 3.2/2.8 * 1.46 = 67% increase in damage.

But now once again, this assumes all other 4 are doing nothing but attacking, which would be ridiculous. You'd have to simulate a specific team setup, then compare it to another specific team setup, otherwise all that number crunching has no context at all. Even then, you can only calculate the exact CONSISTENT damage if you were using all skills on CD, which once again, doesn't say much. Pacing is so important in Kamihime (unless you only AAB) and Nike offers 0 options for that (besides the double full burst i guess). I love theorycrafting and number crunching, but it is only as good as your model and getting a precise model for every situation is impossible / infeasible. That's why playtesting is so much more important. Leave number crunching for things that are consistent and where the results actually have practical relevance, but don't rely on them stubbornly for more complex problems like this. Sure, do the math to get an idea of what it does/adds, but until you test it or see it in action, you'll never know how well a KH really fits into a team.

Once again, not saying Nike is useless, she definitely has her Niche uses, but putting a slowpoke like her into one of the fastest element teams for content that probably doesn't even last 10 turns most of the time might not the brightest idea.

Originally Posted by Slashley

How much did you whale again~?
Just a reminder, when talking about perfect teams, it's not that easy. Miracle Tickets will get you a good way in a single element, at least.

Light's my main, so I'm confident a little dolphin like me will be able to manage. Thanks for the concern though.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

--
Assuming 2.3 ability dmg modifier for Svarog nuke (probably the absolute minimum you'll ever have, should be higher in practice) and not enough damage to hit 300k/hit cap (which we prob will at that point, but lets go with that for simplicity) and your 180% assault. For simplicity i'll just take nuke on CD = 3 hits / 3 turns = 2.3 additional atk worth of damage each turn.

While 1.3x is the upper end Svarog's first skill, fair enough (1.15 would be more on the average side).

Originally Posted by blubbergott

So not completely disregarding the stackable atk buff, we already get a damage increase of 7.3/5 = 46%. That's more than Nike adds at turn 12. By then Svarog also adds 40% assault, resulting in 3.2/2.8 * 1.46 = 67% increase in damage.

Since you started with 7.3, we could just keep to that, no? 7.3 * 3.2/2.8 = 8.34.
As a reminder, off-element Light Nike is 4 * 4/2.8 = 5.71, and as such, significantly lower than on-element Svarog. I'm not surprised.

So, next question. What about the rest of the team?

Originally Posted by Slashley

So, next question. What about the rest of the team?

Did you even read my 2nd paragraph?

About abi multiplier, you forgot any other abi buffs that factor into that, in practice, it'll be closer to x3 than x2.3. Once again showing how many things you'd have to consider for a precise model. Your maths can be 100% correct, if the model doesn't reflect the actual use, it's still completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

Did you even read my 2nd paragraph?

I did, yes.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

About abi multiplier, you forgot any other abi buffs that factor into that,--

Such as what?

Originally Posted by Slashley

I did, yes.Such as what?

Assist, accessories, potentially eleborate (though not sure if there are fire ones already). Just watch any dmm videos, Svarog nukes always hit for ~2.5-3x the attack damage. But well, that's besides the point anyways and you managed to successfully ignore the main point of my post, so I don't see much reason why I should bother to argue anymore.