Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Slashley

ONLY lists Uriel and Metatron AW as the ones who have buffs outside of the cap. The singular DMM wiki pages can be off really easily, though. Pluto's own page doesn't comment, I think.

I can retest this, I mean, I've only done it once. If she's not capped, then she'll be a ton better.At the moment there's no way you'd burst on turn6. That'd require quite a few fast Hime. Maybe once Shingen MEX becomes a thing, but even when it does, is Dark going to have the debuffs to swap to Shingen without Sniper Shot? I fucked up in AQ5 and my Samael debuff wasn't ready for AQ5 boss today, and my Dark team hit like a wet noodle even with PF. I shudder to think how pitiful it'd be if it had been -0% Def without Herc Axe.

In the future I'll be able to comment better once I get to actually see just how good Shingen MEX is. Or how common debuff immune bullshit will be. Until then...

Anyway, back to the point. So, as I briefly mentioned before, the reason why you hold on to Pluto's first ability is because once you have the first set of blocks, any more just... isn't good for you. They'll just be gone once you burst, and you only need 4 to hit burst cap (one for buffing up the team, 3 for 300% + PF). So you need 4, you have 3. If you use abi1, you'll be at 6 - which means that two will be wasted unless you've needed your damage cut. Even if you have - you're still wasting one block. And those blocks come back on turn seven, not six. Six turn CD means that turns 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 need to end before you can re-use it. That's a long time. And Pluto NEEDS those blocks to be viable - she doesn't do shit without them! Thus, you get the dilemma of "uhhh, am I going to use this ability and have Pluto be garbage for a good amount of turns, or do I just use it for higher Combo chance right now and fuck the future?"
It's often not really a decision. Either you're in easy content and you just use it, or you're in hard content where you need to save it so that you won't risk Pluto of all things being your Full Burst bottleneck. Because Pluto IS your first slot, right?"da burst"?

I did mention the Combo rate, but it's tied to the blocks. And the block generation on Pluto is just outright miserable, as I also mentioned. It simply does NOT sync with any content I've used Pluto in so far, which makes her already pitiful block generation even worse.I'm not sure about carries. She punches often, sure. Her burst packs a punch. But I dunno, I wouldn't call that a carry by itself. Is that better than a random SR? Sure. Is that better than SR Beelz? ... eeeh, probably? That's actually an interesting question to which I'll hopefully have an answer later today.

Also, again, that damage cut is only proper against LIGHT specifically. Eight turns is a LONG time, and in content where you need a damage cut, 30% just doesn't... cut it. In other words, if you're fighting against anything that does damage against you, it's going get AT LEAST three shots at you and Pluto can only help with one. That is NOT good. Meanwhile, comparing to other -30% Hime like Raiko or Snow Raphael, they can typically block half of the incoming fire. This means that without the Light bonus - which again eats into block generation and undercuts Pluto yet again - the damage cut ability is bad.Gaia! -60% against Thunder for 1t, plus -20% for another two turns after! Bonus points, Regen to take the brunt off the mitigated nuke. This can fairly easily not only entirely negate an entire attack, allowing you to take it fully next time. And for the third? Gaia will be ready again to entirely negate it. This on top of COMPLETELY removing all threat of any single-target nukes.

Of course, Pluto sits in slot1 whileas Gaia sits in slot4 for being the slowest Wind Hime around. And Pluto obviously bursts WAY harder.


Outside of Gaia, I'd much rather take Hime like the pre-mentioned Snow Raph or Raiko. Again, that faster cooldown just makes a better damage cut. It's like Pluto is trying to dabble into both offense and defense at the same time, and honestly, doesn't really succeed in it.I... don't even understand what this means?

But cooldowns are an important part of things. There's a niche for 3t with 5t CD (spam it), there's a niche for extremely high buffs for 1t with 15t CD, but Pluto's 2t with 8t CD is... lackluster. In both offensive and defensive. Either the CD needs to be less, or the duration needs to be longer, or the power needs to be higher and the duration shorter (as in high buff for 1t on 8t CD).I'm just questioning if she's really a team player or not. On paper, she seems great. In practice... she's not bad, but she just doesn't excel as one might think.

Out of interest, do you have Pluto yourself?

Cool downs are important yes but for fuck's sake did you completely ignore the point of Cobble's arguement? Cool downs can make a hime better or not, but what decides whether they are a teamplayer or not depends on their ability and what they do
Your Gaia arguement basically ignored my entire previous post, you are comparing a purely defensive hime that has AN AWAKENING to a TRICKY hime and then there is your CD arugment. Again the CD accounts for the turn you activate and use it as well 8 Turns + the 2 turns it stays on meaning you only have it down for a total of 6 turns. Any other cut AGAIN not from an alternative version hime usually sits in the range of 5 -6 just like her and they are not even as good as hers
Another thing, unless you specifically main some other shit, where's the incentive to use a non dark team outside of their own respective element? Berith and Pluto can do a great number on the Light High Rag
The beezlebub arguement is just bad. What was even the thought process? Pluto offers everything beezlebub has and even more without any drawbacks
I dont even know what you meant by Uriel but if you are talking about the tokens, those has nothing to do outside the cap. The 2nd ability is a cap raiser - bonus damage but that's about it

What bonuses should I pick for my union in union event? I guess hp and attack but how many levels do I need?

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Ah, the caveat. What I meant when the legos weren't part of the 500% burst dmg up cap was that it's in a separate bracket. Whether that bracket has a cap... I'm not sure about that.

Alright, I'll have to retest that then. I've done today's AQ and GO, so it'll have to be tomorrow then. In GO, since my Dark team probably can't handle the Sat Wave2 fucklord. I've noticed that Pluto will NOT save me from that shitface. Neither would Raiko though, so eh.

Anyway, as far as I know though, there's no "separate brackets." Either your burst damage buff is under the 500% cap, or it isn't. And as far as I know, only Uriel and Metatron are the ones that don't fall under the 500% hard cap. Then there's a couple of special cases like Take who adds a specific number to burst, or the newer 200 burst meter Hime... ... I actually don't know do those Hime also have their bonus fall under the 500% cap or not...

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

I'd believed the point of this discussion to be the meta, and therefore, assume a situation where you'd have all the himes you'd need available. Given this consideration, I'm pretty sure dark could at least pull off a FB turn 6 at worst.

Do they? I mean... Cherno without Cherno mode would be fast, I guess, but... uh, not sure if worth it. Satan, Thanatos would be fast, and Satan easily deserves the team spot. Berith's burst meter can fly depending on RNG.

Yeah, I guess, fair enough. Also to be noted is that Shingen's MEX will guarantee 100 burst for everyone on turn 7, so that's a thing if you don't need Herc's debuff.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

I don't understand your dilemma either tbh. Casting the legos early means you get your DATA buff early and Pluto's gonna be up fast and ready to burst early. --

Well, you'll see if you ever get her.

I don't really know how else to put it. You always get your blocks on turn1. After that, only if your burst is on turn 6 or turn 7 does Pluto's abilities work in her favor. But if you need to delay, you're probably going to need to delay abi1 as well. A blockless Pluto is worse than a generic SR most of the time, after all.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

That isn't to say that a niche doesn't exist for Pluto does it? 50% dmg cut for 2t with a long ass cd? Sounds like a useful tool for a team that can get things done quickly, helps them soak a strong hit from enemies and then clean up, doesn't it? Or maybe even in raids, she's your backup in case your friendly neighbourhood Joans are still down on their cd.

Well, fair enough. Even though it only works against Light, fair enough.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Sure, you can have your doubts about Pluto if you compare it to other elements... but in the context of dark, she's almost the only team player dark has, if you simply define a team player by contributing useful buffs and not holding the team back, she does all of it! But since the rest of the dark cast just kinda up and does their own thing, I don't see anyone else really contesting Pluto for a spot as the better team player. She wins by default.

Well... I guess!

I mean, I wouldn't reward anyone for winning a contest that no other entries whatsoever, but I guess you're technically correct!
Did you know that I was a junior national champion in karate? I mean, nobody else showed up, but that doesn't mean that I didn't win!

->Open Spoiler<-

Actually, it wasn't me, but that was a friend in school who kept bragging and showing off his gold medal, but hey, details. I would've done the same if it had been me.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Cool downs are important yes but for fuck's sake did you completely ignore the point of Cobble's arguement? Cool downs can make a hime better or not, but what decides whether they are a teamplayer or not depends on their ability and what they do

The thing is, Pluto doesn't do all that much for her team. She gives a slight boost to the their burst damage, and that's it. She can once in a blue moon save them from some damage (or a lot of damage if Light). That's why cooldowns ARE important. They... make or break a Hime. And in this case, I find it closer to breaking than making.

Pluto is more of a self-buffer than a team-buffer, really.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

-- and then there is your CD arugment. Again the CD accounts for the turn you activate and use it as well 8 Turns + the 2 turns it stays on meaning you only have it down for a total of 6 turns. Any other cut AGAIN not from an alternative version hime usually sits in the range of 5 -6 just like her and they are not even as good as hers

I don't quite think that's how it works. You're basically saying is that 8 turns is the same thing as 6 turns. So you're ignoring the uptime of the 6 turn ability and including the uptime of the 8 turn ability.

Technically, you can use Pluto's damage cut one turn early, and then it's like comparing a 7t CD to a 6t CD. That does mean that absolutely nothing can go wrong though. Maybe your Combo attacks didn't trigger as much as you liked, and Rage didn't trigger. Maybe Combo attacks went wild and you Stunned a boss instead. But even if you manage to overcome those kinds of things, it's a HUGE difference - 6t abilities are usually ready JUST when you need them - NOT one turn too early! This can of course depend on how many bubbles a boss has, but in general, one turn slower is deadly for damage cuts and makes all the difference.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Another thing, unless you specifically main some other shit, where's the incentive to use a non dark team outside of their own respective element? Berith and Pluto can do a great number on the Light High Rag

Oh? Do tell me, what CAN Pluto do against (true) Light Rag?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The beezlebub arguement is just bad. What was even the thought process? Pluto offers everything beezlebub has and even more without any drawbacks

You're not saying that 20% Assault and 30% Elemental is the same as 50% Berkserk, are you? Since if you are, I believe you aren't very aware of the damage formula. And let me say that this 20%+30%=50% is not in favor of Pluto at all.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I dont even know what you meant by Uriel but if you are talking about the tokens, those has nothing to do outside the cap. The 2nd ability is a cap raiser - bonus damage but that's about it

Good sir. Uriel's tokens are 200% each, and they stack to 10. AND they're outside of the 500% cap. Which means that, Uriel Awakened can reach a WHOPPING 3050% burst modifier. Which is why you see her doing 2m burst damage even with F2P player Grids. Since you only need to punch for ~67k to reach 2m with that modifier (plenty doable even against Water). Meanwhile, outside of Uriel good luck reaching even 1m as a F2P Grid (at the moment). It's certainly possible, particularly with Crits or Aether, but.

So yes... those tokens have everything to do with the cap. First ability is outside the cap, second ability is inside the cap. Without the second ability, you'd see Uriel be at 2750% burst modifier with PF. Which uh, would be broken by itself already, but Uriel obviously goes above and beyond that kind of calling. So let's not even mention how much faster Uriel generates her tokens, or how much better they are for bursting, or how much better they are for her combo rate. Because Pluto doesn't even begin compare. Not many Hime do, so let's not go there, alright?

Originally Posted by aono

What bonuses should I pick for my union in union event? I guess hp and attack but how many levels do I need?

Attack is always a must at 100. No exceptions.

For damage output, Double = Burst (ONLY with Full Burst control, and has bonus points during Burst Hour) > Triple.

100 HP is 100% more HP and 100 Heal is +150% heals. Both can be helpful in reaching higher levels for casual Unions, particularly when combined. But these are generally ignored by serious Unions since getting hit by high level Demons WILL kill you even with double HP. Well, this is Lust, so it's difficult to see anyone ignoring HP here...

And finally, there's Affliction (inflicting ailments). For Lust, bigger Unions tend to pile like 5 Mars users and with 100 Affliction, one of them tends to go through. Then you pile Mordred's VoFs, and bam, you can fairly easily debuff Lust. A Blinded Lust with -50% Atk and Def is a tamed beast. For Unions that don't coordinate like this - which I assume you are not since you're asking this question - it's probably best to ignore this on Lust. For non-Lust UEs, 100 Affliction is amazing for Thor users.

And just to be sure that you know, 400 Grails per day is the max. You also lose your buffs when the day resets.

Attack - ideally all the way to 100. But if your union has trouble farming grails (like say; your union farms under 100 grails a day...), stop at 50. That should be enough to comfortably get enough kills each day to get all the normal rewards at least.

HP - usually the 2nd priority, yes. If you have the grails, 50-100. If you don't have the grails, whelp, live with just atk, and prod your union to at least farm up grails for the days when you really push expert and/or ult.

Other stuff assumes your union isn't composed of just lazy jackasses when it comes to grail farming...

Burst - more important if your union does most of its work during burst hour, significantly less if it's the other way around (ie most of the work is done outside of burst hour)

+affliction success rate or whatever the thing that improves ability to land debuff is called - if your union has paralysis users to do the pushing, you want this. If your union doesn't, you don't care about this.

+Double attack rate/+Triple attack rate - the default offensive buffs for non-paralysis users outside of burst hour. IIRC, +double maxes out at +25%, +triple maxes out at +10%. So +double is the more reliable buff.

+healing - most useful when your union doesn't use paralysis users, does its work outside of burst hour, and each fight involves a fewer number of people (and thus a given fight lasts a long time). Also contigent on how your best pushers actually fight. Alternatively, this can also be considered to be more friendly for lower power players just looking to get to 3 million individual PP over the entire event.

+debuff resistance - only remotely relevant against Sloth

Since you mentioned it, to clarify, Takeminakata's burst effect of bonus fixed damage depending on the # of blades is not +burst damage. It's actually an echo burst doing a set amount of damage. So it has nothing to do with +burst damage caps. It has nothing to do with burst streak either (being a separate attack entirely).

Very noob question here but "% character attack" on eidolons ONLY works against the element that you're strong against Dark vs Light? %Character attack doesn't do anything vs the other elements I'm guessing?

So as a dark main you would ideally want "dark attack" instead of "character attack" for your eidolon if you'd like to do all content? Having trouble deciding which shop eidolon would be best for my dark team Amphisbaena, Dulluhan, or Jack-O-Lantern.

Pluto is good for dark right now... because dark right now kind of sucks. If you speed up dark and burst faster (using Shingen and Osiris), pluto's requirement for blocks quickly makes her a detriment to the team because of how long it takes her to get them. She definitely needs an AW to lower her CDs if they ever bother fixing dark.

That said, what Dark really needs is something along the lines of Titania to pull some of their slower heavy hitters into the fast meta. At the moment, the only one that really works is Thanatos. Ideally, the line up would be something like Thanatos, Dark Titania (let's call her), Berith, Osiris. Should work well enough to not be a joke anymore at least. The rest of dark though... god knows, that's a lot of fixing (maybe that's why they don't want to touch it?).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Very noob question here but "% character attack" on eidolons ONLY works against the element that you're strong against Dark vs Light? %Character attack doesn't do anything vs the other elements I'm guessing?

So as a dark main you would ideally want "dark attack" instead of "character attack" for your eidolon if you'd like to do all content? Having trouble deciding which shop eidolon would be best for my dark team Amphisbaena, Dulluhan, or Jack-O-Lantern.

Good guesses, but not really how it works.

Both "Character Atk" and "Dark Attack" (what we call "Elemental" around here) buff all Dark units. So you can go and bring any of those three against any element, as long as the team you're bringing them with are Dark Hime and Soul.

The damage formula super-simplified is
baseAtk*CharacterAtk*ElementalAtk
This means that a combination of both Character and Elemental is the best. HOWEVER. Notice that Character Atk is the same as Assault that you gain from your Grid. That means that if you've leveled up your Dark Assault weapons, Elemental Eidolons are vastly superior. That's the short version. Then there's the long version which goes into elemental advantage and Soul weapons and stuff, but that should get you started I hope.

But if you're just starting out (playtime less than a month), the most important thing is: reroll. Reroll into a 100% Elemental Eidolon. Those things are super important for you.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Well... I guess!

I mean, I wouldn't reward anyone for winning a contest that no other entries whatsoever, but I guess you're technically correct!

Well see... my point wasn't who wins but the overall pool.

Dark doesn't have better options for team players, a point which I've basically been throwing around since the discussion of the elements in the DMM meta. "Dark is no better than the sum of their himes weaknesses and strengths altogether." Which to bring back the original topic, was the reason why I said it needed team players other than Pluto. If you think Pluto isn't team player enough for your tastes, then all the more you'd side with dark needs more of those things.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Alright, I'll have to retest that then. I've done today's AQ and GO, so it'll have to be tomorrow then. In GO, since my Dark team probably can't handle the Sat Wave2 fucklord. I've noticed that Pluto will NOT save me from that shitface. Neither would Raiko though, so eh.

Anyway, as far as I know though, there's no "separate brackets." Either your burst damage buff is under the 500% cap, or it isn't. And as far as I know, only Uriel and Metatron are the ones that don't fall under the 500% hard cap. Then there's a couple of special cases like Take who adds a specific number to burst, or the newer 200 burst meter Hime... ... I actually don't know do those Hime also have their bonus fall under the 500% cap or not...Do they? I mean... Cherno without Cherno mode would be fast, I guess, but... uh, not sure if worth it. Satan, Thanatos would be fast, and Satan easily deserves the team spot. Berith's burst meter can fly depending on RNG.

I don't really know how else to put it. You always get your blocks on turn1. After that, only if your burst is on turn 6 or turn 7 does Pluto's abilities work in her favor. But if you need to delay, you're probably going to need to delay abi1 as well. A blockless Pluto is worse than a generic SR most of the time, after all.Well, fair enough. Even though it only works ag

[The thing is, Pluto doesn't do all that much for her team. She gives a slight boost to the their burst damage, and that's it. She can once in a blue moon save them from some damage (or a lot of damage if Light). That's why cooldowns ARE important. They... make or break a Hime. And in this case, I find it closer to breaking than making.

How many times do i have to restate this a team player is not based on their CDs, the CDs make or break their usefulness i get it that'a what you are going for. But then there is the example of Metis which i have previously stated. Her CDs are absurdly but her kit defines her as a team player. Can you honestly tell me 60% damage cut, cleanse - affliction block for everyone but her and a taunt with dark rst is not meant for team play?
Yes i do have to admit Pluto's arent ideal for an amazing team player. However when you look at Dark as a whole what better options are there? The Hades rebalance doesnt come out for a long time and even then her light rst up doesnt suprasses pluto's

Pluto is more of a self-buffer than a team-buffer, really.I don't quite think that's how it works. You're basically saying is that 8 turns is the same thing as 6 turns. So you're ignoring the uptime of the 6 turn ability and including the uptime of the 8 turn ability.

Not exactly the same thing pal, you have it up for 2 turns and the timer for those 8 turns will also count for the 2 turns the buff is on, so your timer of not having the spell for usage will be 6 turns. Take michael AW's DA for example it has a 7 T CD but it lasts for a whopping 5 turns. How's that different from saying the shit basically is sitting on a 2 turn down time. This relates back to the point of CDs, Dakki has a 40% wind rst on a 7 turn cool down ( upgraded version) that's not very different from saying you wont have the rst up again for a total of 6 turns. Do not try to stick Gaia in here again, i have made my point clear about her type and her Awakening.

Technically, you can use Pluto's damage cut one turn early, and then it's like comparing a 7t CD to a 6t CD. That does mean that absolutely nothing can go wrong though. Maybe your Combo attacks didn't trigger as much as you liked, and Rage didn't trigger. Maybe Combo attacks went wild and you Stunned a boss instead. But even if you manage to overcome those kinds of things, it's a HUGE difference - 6t abilities are usually ready JUST when you need them - NOT one turn too early! This can of course depend on how many bubbles a boss has, but in general, one turn slower is deadly for damage cuts and makes all the difference.Oh? Do tell me, what CAN Pluto do against (true) Light Rag?You're not saying that 20% Assault and 30% Elemental is the same as 50% Berkserk, are you? Since if you are, I believe you aren't very aware of the damage formula. And let me say that this 20%+30%=50% is not in favor of Pluto at all.Good sir. Uriel's tokens are 200% each, and they stack to 10. AND they're outside of the 500% cap. Which means that, Uriel Awakened can reach a WHOPPING 3050% burst modifier. Which is why you see her doing 2m burst damage even with F2P player Grids. Since you only need to punch for ~67k to reach 2m with that modifier (plenty doable even against Water). Meanwhile, outside of Uriel good luck reaching even 1m as a F2P Grid (at the moment). It's certainly possible, particularly with Crits or Aether, but.

This part is just wrong on many levels
1. Assault and Elemental attack does not exist in the same bracket, therefore you cant just do the 20+30=50. It is a (X + 20%) multiplied by (Y +30%)which leads to the 2ns issue
2. Rampaging is a multiplier not the same category as those 2 mentioned above.
3.Rampaging locks burst and spells, you will hit a little bit harder for 2 turns but at the cost of your abilities and potential to burst
And finally against a true high rag use Pluto and a Joan friend and you just got yourself 90% damage cut. The attack buff i dont have to mention and her value as a bursting unit

So yes... those tokens have everything to do with the cap. First ability is outside the cap, second ability is inside the cap. Without the second ability, you'd see Uriel be at 2750% burst modifier with PF. Which uh, would be broken by itself already, but Uriel obviously goes above and beyond that kind of calling. So let's not even mention how much faster Uriel generates her tokens, or how much better they are for bursting, or how much better they are for her combo rate. Because Pluto doesn't even begin compare. Not many Hime do, so let's not go there, alright?

I wanna make this very clear to avoid future quarrels like this. This isnt meant to put Pluto on some pedestal, she is good i will stand by this however she is good because of how fucked Dark is in the future. Most himes does their own thing and doesnt help the team as a whole. Her idea of good exists within dark and dark alone based on what dark is, take dmm's valentine's day baal for example. She is a monster yes but yout put a monster amongst a bunch of gods and she is useless. She cant debuff and she cant beat iris's amazing burst potential, she cant replace lugh because then you lose out on that amazing nuke spam and speed, no one is gonna replace michael AW and final slot has to a healer so you can abuse lugh to her fullest extent. Take Baal make her Dark and she would be an instant whale target for dark mains