Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Has anyone figured out how the scaling for Fleurety works when MLB? Is it 0% special atk at 100% hp and scales linearly to 50% at near death or does it start off at non-zero and/or some other scaling?

I assume the upcoming light raid eidolon uses the same scaling, and am trying to figure out whether it's worth using her as a main instead of Barong, which is what I currently use.

Seems my question got buried. I did some research, it turns out someone on the JP wiki has the formula, so in case someone is interested, the special attack is: 10 + 40 * (1-HP / MHP)%

So it is basically a dmg increase of between 10%-50%. However, to use it, you are sacrificing another main eidolon, probably a 40%-45% event elemental eidolon if you are even considering using these. If you do not have an elemental soul weapon, the special attack is probably not worth the eidolon elemental loss. Even with a soul weapon, you need to average around 60%-ish health for special attack to come out ahead. Could be worth it if your tactic in a fight is to eat an AoE OD then FB right after - the dmg gained from bursting at low health may make up for dmg lost when near full health. If you normally burst before an OD to try to stun the boss and avoid getting hit, these special attack eidolons probably will not help you.

Note that while running the numbers, I uncovered one interesting use case, which is if you have the setup I currently have: elemental soul weapon, 100% eidolon support but do not own a 100% so you are stuck using 40%/45% as your main, assault of 117% or greater (9x SR assault weapons or better.) It turns out that if you replace one assault weapon with a vigoras weapon (one of the current raid event SR weapon is vigoras) and replace Barong with Abou as main, you have a dmg curve where you are losing only 2% dmg relative to initial setup when near 100% health, breaks even around 70% health, and has up to 20% higher dmg when near death. Basically you are sacrificing very little dmg when near full health but still reaping some noticeable gains when at low health.

I have not MLB Abou and slvl the SR vigoras weapon yet, so I can't verify the above, but can report back if there is interest.

tl;dr - Abou's special attack has its uses, most useful to those that have 100% eidolon friends but do not own one themselves AND you frequently FB after eating AoE from bosses. Useless for almost everyone else.

Originally Posted by Argo

I first noticed it in the shop. Costs a Dragon Eye. Ridiculous.

Actually, that's an improved version called Arcanum of Universe (basically serves a similar purpose as the SSR Grail, in that it gives more EXP than Arcanum of Life). Don't worry. I made that mistake myself.

I'm not sure if it appears anywhere else, but Arcanum of Life can actually be purchased in the Coin/Jewel Shop (i.e. the place where you buy inventory expansions) for 300 coins/jewels. Still not great, but at least free players can access that if they really want to cut down on EXP farming for an Awakened hime.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Note that while running the numbers, I uncovered one interesting use case, which is if you have the setup I currently have: elemental soul weapon, 100% eidolon support but do not own a 100% so you are stuck using 40%/45% as your main, assault of 117% or greater (9x SR assault weapons or better.) It turns out that if you replace one assault weapon with a vigoras weapon (one of the current raid event SR weapon is vigoras) and replace Barong with Abou as main, you have a dmg curve where you are losing only 2% dmg relative to initial setup when near 100% health, breaks even around 70% health, and has up to 20% higher dmg when near death. Basically you are sacrificing very little dmg when near full health but still reaping some noticeable gains when at low health.

I have not MLB Abou and slvl the SR vigoras weapon yet, so I can't verify the above, but can report back if there is interest.

tl;dr - Abou's special attack has its uses, most useful to those that have 100% eidolon friends but do not own one themselves AND you frequently FB after eating AoE from bosses. Useless for almost everyone else.

It's really hard for a decent Light team to make use of Abou. You're usually fairly fast and bursty and you have the ability (with Sol and Ascension weapons) to be fairly robust and usually trying to max out hitpoints. She's counter to your basic build.

Now that vigoras SR weapon, on the other hand, is all types of juice and just very very useful. Vigoras is its own frame (separate from assault and elemental), which means that 12% at full life is equivalent to about 24% assault (at 100%+) and approximately 18% elemental (at over 50% elemental) and that weapon can start adding better amounts than most SSRs.

Combine it with at least two pride weapons (for when it starts to lose juice) and you can build a fairly robust bonus to just base assault weapons.


Dejnov.


Edit: I plan on MLBing two of them (with Eido Orbs if needed) to work into a Light weapon grid for the medium to potentially long term if it does work out as well as I am speculating at the moment.

So, don't take the following as me disagreeing, I think we agree on all the technical points, just that we may have different play styles, and I thought it may be helpful to flesh out my thinking more. I am curious to see what your thoughts are, as discussions like these often help me see hidden potential in builds.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

You're usually fairly fast and bursty and you have the ability (with Sol and Ascension weapons) to be fairly robust and usually trying to max out hitpoints. She's counter to your basic build.

Three things:
1. Fast and bursty can actually make hp-based (both pride-like and vigoras-like) weapons more attractive 'cos you can more easily shift when the damage occurs. If you are going pride route like my suggested use of Abou, you heal after FB; if going vigoras like your suggestion, you heal before. Note that if you have a red abilities heavy build (e.g. SSR Artemis), vigoras probably will in fact work better 'cos you usually unload most of them at start of combat when you are at full health. I usually use a buff and debuff heavy build (e.g. Tish), where more of my damage comes from burst, and it is not easy to burst at full health consistently outside of burst hour.
2. I actually have Sol (awakened actually) and ascension weapons, but I don't always use them. Light has a lot of very strong attackers, and while Sol is an extremely good utility hime, she usually gets benched or goes to sub when I don't need the cleanse or dispel and just go full DPS. Remember, for GO, potions drop reliably; emote for potion in raids or just free-ride on someone else's Andromeda heal if you don't need reliable heal.
3. Even with Sol, before awakening, it is still tough to consistently keep everyone topped off. Remember, her heal has a 6T CD, which often means you need to wait for two boss ODs before you heal again. And pre-awakening, her heal does not have the regen attached to it. That being said, I actually do use a build where I pair Sol AW with Joan and Tish, and if you time their abilities well, you can in fact keep everyone near full health most of the time and yes, it would make no sense to use Abou in that build.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Now that vigoras SR weapon, on the other hand, is all types of juice and just very very useful. Vigoras is its own frame (separate from assault and elemental), which means that 12% at full life is equivalent to about 24% assault (at 100%+) and approximately 18% elemental (at over 50% elemental) and that weapon can start adding better amounts than most SSRs.

A couple things here:
1. Remember you are sacrificing 13% assault to have a vigoras weapon, so at 100% assault, you are only gaining equivalent of 11% assault at full health. That is a lot, yes, but vigoras drops off non-linearly unlike pride and special attack, and you are gaining basically nothing around 80% health and losing out the entire 13% assault equivalent below half health. If you are using a non-Sol AW build, you will likely be spending a lot of time under 80% health.
2. Just curious, under what circumstances would your elemental be 50%? That sounds awfully low. The benchmark I usually use is either 110% elemental (30% soul weapon + double 40% event eidolons) or 170% elemental (soul weapon + 100% eidolon + 40% event eidolon). That would actually make your 18% elemental equivalent look even more attractive, but just barely attractive enough to want to replace the soul weapon with a vigoras weapon unless you have double 100%+ eidolons.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Combine it with at least two pride weapons (for when it starts to lose juice) and you can build a fairly robust bonus to just base assault weapons.

That is actually the same logic as my suggestion of combining Abou with a vigoras weapon. I would argue that works better with Abou than with pride weapons, because for Abou, you are sacrificing eidolon elemental for special attack, which is its own frame, separate from vigoras as well. For pride, you are sacrificing base assault for hp-dependent assault (I am assuming a base case of 9x assault weapons), which is not a good offset to vigoras. Consider the following data points (double-check my math, but I believe I have it right):

a. 9x SR assault (I will ignore elemental frame since I am keeping that constant in all scenarios here): 117% assault = 2.17 dmg
b. 1 pride and 1 vigoras, 7x assault all SR: 101% assault, 12 pride multiplier and 16 vigoras base = 2.25 dmg at 100% hp (~4% higher than base case) but from ~85% hp all the way down to zero, you are losing up to 5% dmg
c. 2 pride, 1 vigoras, 6x assault all SR: 98% assault, 24 pride multiplier and 16 vigoras base = 2.22 dmg at 100% hp AND at ~0% hp (~2% higher than base case) but between 25%-90% hp, you are losing up to 4% dmg. You need to have a very specialized build to dish out most of your dmg OUTSIDE of the 25%-90% hp range

For reference, my Abou + vigoras calculations from before used 170% elemental and 117% assault as base, and 130% elemental and 104% assault for Abou + vigoras. There, the dmg loss never exceeds 2% but the upside can go to 20% at near death. It relies on high elemental and the fact that assault, elemental, special attack and vigoras are all separate frames. If your elemental is lower and/or you are sacrificing a 100% eidolon instead of 40%, the numbers look awful, too.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I plan on MLBing two of them (with Eido Orbs if needed) to work into a Light weapon grid for the medium to potentially long term if it does work out as well as I am speculating at the moment.

Just curious, are you MLB-ing two pride or two vigoras weapons? If two vigoras, what does your light build look like? If I did my math right, you have to be pretty confident that you can consistently keep everyone above 90% hp for it to be worthwhile. Not even my Joan + Tish + Sol AW build can manage that unless I bring LT as well AND her blind lands. Do you have a lot of ascension weapons such that even Joan's regen can keep everyone healthy from regular attacks and Sol cover OD or something? I guess if you have a lot of defense accessories, that will probably help a lot, too.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So, don't take the following as me disagreeing, I think we agree on all the technical points, just that we may have different play styles, and I thought it may be helpful to flesh out my thinking more. I am curious to see what your thoughts are, as discussions like these often help me see hidden potential in builds.

Disagree to your heart's content. I don't take it personally and love having the discourse.

Three things:
1. Fast and bursty can actually make hp-based (both pride-like and vigoras-like) weapons more attractive 'cos you can more easily shift when the damage occurs. If you are going pride route like my suggested use of Abou, you heal after FB; if going vigoras like your suggestion, you heal before. Note that if you have a red abilities heavy build (e.g. SSR Artemis), vigoras probably will in fact work better 'cos you usually unload most of them at start of combat when you are at full health. I usually use a buff and debuff heavy build (e.g. Tish), where more of my damage comes from burst, and it is not easy to burst at full health consistently outside of burst hour.
2. I actually have Sol (awakened actually) and ascension weapons, but I don't always use them. Light has a lot of very strong attackers, and while Sol is an extremely good utility hime, she usually gets benched or goes to sub when I don't need the cleanse or dispel and just go full DPS. Remember, for GO, potions drop reliably; emote for potion in raids or just free-ride on someone else's Andromeda heal if you don't need reliable heal.
3. Even with Sol, before awakening, it is still tough to consistently keep everyone topped off. Remember, her heal has a 6T CD, which often means you need to wait for two boss ODs before you heal again. And pre-awakening, her heal does not have the regen attached to it. That being said, I actually do use a build where I pair Sol AW with Joan and Tish, and if you time their abilities well, you can in fact keep everyone near full health most of the time and yes, it would make no sense to use Abou in that build.

My current hime team is SSR Artemis, Tishtrya, Sol AW and Michael AW with Metatron and Light Satan in sub. My grid is fairly poor and still uses some assault SRs. It takes longer to get that up and running due to large gaps in Light specific events.

I have tried running without Sol, but I've got a strong assault grid with very little defender and so my group is tender. As such I have to run Sol in almost every section of high level content. I have been pushing my team for burst and also double attack and triple attack optimization. While that is weaker in the short run against content that is debuffable, it is also one of the few ways to consistently put out damage into debuff resistant content and also when I'm using them off element (which is a lot of the time as this team is way better than most of my other teams). I agree that it is difficult to keep people consistently topped of, but that's why I'm so interested in the pride and vigoras synergy. I had a friend on the wiki discord channel run my weapon grid (which has LSatan's pride glaive in it) with both 1 vigoras and 1 pride weapon and also 1 vigoras and 2 pride weapons. On both grids, the damage output at the start is about 10% for the first 10% of hit points. It then goes to zero at around 80% life and then for the single pride grid it stays below by about 4-6% all the way to zero hitpoints. For the 2 pride weapon combo it still crosses at around 80% life and then sees about a 3-4% loss till about 25% life. At that point it picks up again and that vigoras is starting to help yet again. It seems fairly close to a wash (30 to 40% of your hitpoint range you've got around a 5% boost with 10% at start) and near the middle you're consistently around 3-4% less in hitpoints. I'll try and find the charts from last night's discussion and post them to this forum later tonight. (Currently at work)

A couple things here:
1. Remember you are sacrificing 13% assault to have a vigoras weapon, so at 100% assault, you are only gaining equivalent of 11% assault at full health. That is a lot, yes, but vigoras drops off non-linearly unlike pride and special attack, and you are gaining basically nothing around 80% health and losing out the entire 13% assault equivalent below half health. If you are using a non-Sol AW build, you will likely be spending a lot of time under 80% health.
2. Just curious, under what circumstances would your elemental be 50%? That sounds awfully low. The benchmark I usually use is either 110% elemental (30% soul weapon + double 40% event eidolons) or 170% elemental (soul weapon + 100% eidolon + 40% event eidolon). That would actually make your 18% elemental equivalent look even more attractive, but just barely attractive enough to want to replace the soul weapon with a vigoras weapon unless you have double 100%+ eidolons.

My elemental is not at 50%. It's currently at 80% (2star Echidna plus full skilled Shingen lance). I was just using that as a general estimation level (math is easier to run there than at other numbers).

That is actually the same logic as my suggestion of combining Abou with a vigoras weapon. I would argue that works better with Abou than with pride weapons, because for Abou, you are sacrificing eidolon elemental for special attack, which is its own frame, separate from vigoras as well. For pride, you are sacrificing base assault for hp-dependent assault (I am assuming a base case of 9x assault weapons), which is not a good offset to vigoras. Consider the following data points (double-check my math, but I believe I have it right):

a. 9x SR assault (I will ignore elemental frame since I am keeping that constant in all scenarios here): 117% assault = 2.17 dmg
b. 1 pride and 1 vigoras, 7x assault all SR: 101% assault, 12 pride multiplier and 16 vigoras base = 2.25 dmg at 100% hp (~4% higher than base case) but from ~85% hp all the way down to zero, you are losing up to 5% dmg
c. 2 pride, 1 vigoras, 6x assault all SR: 98% assault, 24 pride multiplier and 16 vigoras base = 2.22 dmg at 100% hp AND at ~0% hp (~2% higher than base case) but between 25%-90% hp, you are losing up to 4% dmg. You need to have a very specialized build to dish out most of your dmg OUTSIDE of the 25%-90% hp range

For reference, my Abou + vigoras calculations from before used 170% elemental and 117% assault as base, and 130% elemental and 104% assault for Abou + vigoras. There, the dmg loss never exceeds 2% but the upside can go to 20% at near death. It relies on high elemental and the fact that assault, elemental, special attack and vigoras are all separate frames. If your elemental is lower and/or you are sacrificing a 100% eidolon instead of 40%, the numbers look awful, too.

Just curious, are you MLB-ing two pride or two vigoras weapons? If two vigoras, what does your light build look like? If I did my math right, you have to be pretty confident that you can consistently keep everyone above 90% hp for it to be worthwhile. Not even my Joan + Tish + Sol AW build can manage that unless I bring LT as well AND her blind lands. Do you have a lot of ascension weapons such that even Joan's regen can keep everyone healthy from regular attacks and Sol cover OD or something? I guess if you have a lot of defense accessories, that will probably help a lot, too.

I'm actually trying to find a way to limit the potential downside to using Pride weapons in my grid. The biggest issue with a pride weapon in a grid is the loss of attack in the first 30% of hit points. One thing the calculation my friend showed is that my overall assault, in all situations, goes up as I lose hitpoints. I currently only have 1 pride weapon in the grid and I'm at full strength at 70% life (against an SSR) and then for all life lower I'm actually hitting harder with that single pride weapon (about 10% more as I go to zero life) in my grid. With Sol and ascension weapons I can heal 3666 hit points each heal. I have Tish also for that 'oh shit' that hime took 8k damage in one round also. So keeping himes alive and moving isn't a huge issue. Also I can guarantee getting another assault/ascension weapon at the next event that can be FLBed. I WILL have Pride weapons in my weapon grid whether I want to or not as it's a long long road to bricking Hime weapons that are better. If this is a know format for my game, what should I do to mitigate the first 15% to 20% life where I'm at a disadvantage? That Vigoras weapon seems to be the one missing link. Due to my friends analysis, I may never run more than 1 of it, but I think it's got to go into the grid to help with smoothening the damage profile, since in the medium term I have no choice and I'm using ascension staffs.

I actually plan on MLBing 2 of each (the pride sword and the vigoras weapon). I recently got a phantom sword drop and I'm tempted to try and build a sword grid with Arthur's sword, the Orchicalcum Swordx1, Frey's sword, and two of these SR pride swords (or maybe three and no Ori sword). MLBing an SR is unbelievably cheap (300 Eidolon Orbs per break) so it costs very little to try and do.


Dejnov.


Let's talk about Abou in another post; I've got to run to work meeting and the Abou discussion is deeper.

I recently got a phantom sword drop and I'm tempted to try and build a sword grid with Arthur's sword, the Orchicalcum Swordx1, Frey's sword, and two of these SR pride swords

no. just no.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

My current hime team is SSR Artemis, Tishtrya, Sol AW and Michael AW with Metatron and Light Satan in sub. My grid is fairly poor and still uses some assault SRs. It takes longer to get that up and running due to large gaps in Light specific events.

This is funny, my standard GO team is almost identical: Light Tsuku, Tishtrya, Sol AW and Michael AW, Vishnu and Eros as sub (if I had Metatron, I would use Metatron as sub, too, but Vishnu is the fastest burster I've got.)

My DPS team is Takeminakata, Tishtrya, Michael AW, Light Tsuku, sub is usually Sol AW and Vishnu.

My grid isn't great either. It still has 3 SR, 1 LB0 SSR and 2 LB1 SSR. The LB0 and LB1 SSR stats are worse than LB3 SR, but they give me defender in addition to assault, otherwise my DPS team is not viable without Sol as you noticed as well. My soul weapon is LB0 as well, but that's more because I can't make up my mind on which soul I want to use long-term and been hoarding regalia (I have not unlocked Shingen or Hercules yet; been unlocking souls based on GO requirements, so, I have like Solomon instead, lol.)

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I have been pushing my team for burst and also double attack and triple attack optimization. While that is weaker in the short run against content that is debuffable, it is also one of the few ways to consistently put out damage into debuff resistant content and also when I'm using them off element (which is a lot of the time as this team is way better than most of my other teams).

I run my light team for everything except tower (which maybe tells you how bad my other grids are; my fire grid for the last tower had 6 SR on it, and that's one of my better grids lol.) I went with optimizing around debuffs (I keep every affliction accessory I find, even R ones), and yes, as you pointed out, doing so means I do poorly for debuff resistant stuff like wind rag. I do great in UE with the grail affliction rates though (not in a paratrain union.)

Btw, not sure if you have Take, if you do, you have to try her, she is absolutely awesome when you have an underpowered grid like you and I. Heck, I think she will be awesome even when I get a full SSR grid. I'm not sure if she is worth mtix given that Lugh is just around the corner, but she definitely made dropping Sol worthwhile for me.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

On both grids, the damage output at the start is about 10% for the first 10% of hit points. It then goes to zero at around 80% life and then for the single pride grid it stays below by about 4-6% all the way to zero hitpoints. For the 2 pride weapon combo it still crosses at around 80% life and then sees about a 3-4% loss till about 25% life. At that point it picks up again and that vigoras is starting to help yet again. It seems fairly close to a wash (30 to 40% of your hitpoint range you've got around a 5% boost with 10% at start) and near the middle you're consistently around 3-4% less in hitpoints.

That actually sounds about right. I left my pride/vigoras comparison spreadsheet at home (I am currently at work, too, haha) but will rerun with the SSR instead of SR stats to see if I get similar results.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

It's currently at 80% (2star Echidna plus full skilled Shingen lance)

Did you mean Thunderbird? I think Echidna is dark/fire. I own Thunderbird, too, but it's at a whooping LB0, so I use MLB Barong.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

With Sol and ascension weapons I can heal 3666 hit points each heal.

Yeah, you definitely have more ascension than me. I think my Sol only heals around 2.4k-ish, unless I time it with the ascension buff from her blue skill, then I get around low 3k-ish I think.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I have Tish also for that 'oh shit' that hime took 8k damage in one round also.

Your hp doesn't sound too bad if 8k doesn't kill you. Most of my himes are currently only at 10k hp. Constant TA from the likes of wind rag is the bane of my DPS team.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Also I can guarantee getting another assault/ascension weapon at the next event that can be FLBed.

Yes! That UE cannot come soon enough! Don't forget that FLB-able assault/exceed axe!

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I WILL have Pride weapons in my weapon grid whether I want to or not as it's a long long road to bricking Hime weapons that are better. If this is a know format for my game, what should I do to mitigate the first 15% to 20% life where I'm at a disadvantage?

I am in the same boat. FLB pride gives 15% base assault independent of hp though, with a second skill, it should still be better than non-FLB assault of 16% on average, so I see the hp-dependence part as all upside, not a disadvantage. Glass half full or half empty? =)

It is still well-worth exploring adding vigoras especially since you are running SSR Artemis and I assume you unload her red abilities on the first turn at full health?

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Due to my friends analysis, I may never run more than 1 of it, but I think it's got to go into the grid to help with smoothening the damage profile, since in the medium term I have no choice and I'm using ascension staffs.

I did run a 2 vigoras with pride (forgot whether it was 1 or 2 pride) last night, didn't like the dmg profile, but I forgot why (I was up 'cos our baby boy woke us up and I couldn't fall back asleep, so everything was a bit of a blur.) I will look it up when I get home. Also, none of the numbers I ran may be applicable to you, since they are all SR stats, but what you're looking at is really FLB level stats, which I think shifts the breakeven points around.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I recently got a phantom sword drop and I'm tempted to try and build a sword grid with Arthur's sword, the Orchicalcum Swordx1, Frey's sword, and two of these SR pride swords (or maybe three and no Ori sword)

I have a phantom axe, and my best light axe is the SR Nandi axe, so I'm not even gonna try...

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Let's talk about Abou in another post

Looking forward to it!

So in our last discussions we were exploring options in vigoras and pride. Let's finish that talk before moving onto the Fluerety/Abou.

I had a friend run my current assault profile (all assault weapons with 2 pride) with the addition of a vigoras weapon and also moving to 3 pride/1 vigoras setup. The first image is my assault equation with and without a vigoras weapon (plus the base 2 prides). The second graph shows the update with three prides in the weapon grid. Y axis is total assault mulitplier, x axis is hitpoints starting at 0 and going to 100% (5% per division)







The first point of real note is what's not explicitly shown in the graph. If I didn't have any pride weapons, I would be at a flat 2.36 assault. Since I have pride (red line) you can see where I make it up to a no pride grid versus the current pride gride. You can also see by around 50% life I jump up to 2.45 assault and by 25% life I'm up to 2.55% assault. Having a pride weapon hurts at full life and starts to pay as you are getting recked (which is what we already knew).

The second point of the black line (and a vigoras weapon addition) is that vigoras really helps over the first 20% of life and then drops of fairly dramatically. By 50% when it's useless though, the 2 prides kick in enough to make it still equivalent or better than an all assault grid. It's not better than the just 2 pride vs. 2 assault grid, but it is better than the base all assault grid and it's a lot less lower in the lower damage range (100%-70% hit points) that you typically get in a pride versus assault grid. The addition of a third pride (2nd graph's black line) moves it back to making it comparable across the spectrum.

The end result is that if you're interested in mitigating the issue you have in using pride weapon versus an assault weapon into your weapon grid is that you probably are better of pairing pride weapons with at least a single vigoras weapon to offset the assault loss at the higher hitpoints. You still can't breach a full assault weapon grid since you're losing out some base assault from the pride weapons currently in the grid, but you're assault deficit is a very narrow window around 90% to 80% with you being close at full health (and your first round damage attacks from someone like SSR Artemis) and you can make up the deficit by around 65% hitpoints and gain a net advantage over the all assault grid. That's a much tighter range than you have NOT running a vigoras weapon and only running pride weapons. All in all, they complement each other quite nicely and you should strive to have both if you are using pride weapons.

Now onto Abou/Fluerety...

I will start of by telling you I have run Fluerety versus Behemoth on my wind grid and I was a little disappointed.

Let's start with two test cases that kind of summarize the issue with Abou.

I have a 40% element eidolon, a 30% element soul weapon, and I pick up a 40% element friend eidolon. My current element multiplier is 2.1 to my total attack. If I'm at full life and I use Abou my calculation changes to 1.7x1.1 = 1.87 or an 11% reduction in total attack. At half life it would become 1.7x1.3 = 2.21 or about 5% above my total attack without her. The cross over point is around 1.25 special multiplier or around 62.5% health. That's a lot of the game you're spending in an assault deficit. It also means you have to be at half hitpoints or so before you see an appreciable difference.

Let's look at the best case. I have Fluffie for 100% element, a 30% element soul weapon, and I pick my friend's Fluffie also for another 100% element eidolon. My current element multiplier is 3.3 to my total attack. If I'm at full life and I use Abou my calculation changes to 2.3x1.1 =2.53 or about 24% less total attack. At half life it would become 2.3x1.3 = 2.99 which is still about 9% less total attack. The crossover point becomes around 20% hitpoints and for the last 5% hitpoints you'll notice an appreciable gain.

In the second case it's plainly obvious that Abou sucks. Not just a little, but a lot. In the first case, it's marginal and really doesn't help until you're at half life. In my opinion that's not nearly enough of the game to be of any appreciable gain. You're playing at a strict disadvantage for about a third of the battle and you're net noticeable at around half of the battle. But it's that second case that makes it a very bad trade off unlike the pride/vigoras discussion. As you get better elemental eidolons or use your friend's really strong eidolons, Abou dings your performance more and more. The pride/vigoras weapons still give you assault and, as such, work the same whether you have no FLBed Assault Hime weapons or have 8+ of them. They aren't reducing your total potential as Abou does, they just change the risk profile you experience. That's a big difference and the reason I can see myself using Pride and Pride/Vigoras weapons versus replacing an elemental Eidolon with a special attack Eidolon.


Dejnov.

While I'm not touching the rest of the discussion with a five foot pole...

Originally Posted by Dejnov

-- Having a pride weapon hurts at full life and starts to pay as you are getting recked (which is what we already knew).--

I don't think that's a very good way to view things.

Pride's 10%/15% vs. Assault's 16%/21% is less, sure, but not by much. Furthermore, unless you're running some kind of double-healer comp (or are running content which is a joke to you, in which case nothing really matters since you can just AFK AAB it anyway), you WILL be damaged. This will easily mitigate the most of the difference, if not entirely. As such, can you really say that running Pride "hurts" you?

The case can be made for Burst Hour, but again, content during Burst Hours tends to be a joke anyway, in which case this "hurting" doesn't matter. Or in the event of Disaster Rags, is really unlikely to not make enough of a difference to make you lose/win MvP.

Unregistered can't post images, so I finally went ahead and registered.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The first image is my assault equation with and without a vigoras weapon (plus the base 2 prides).

That clears up a lot actually - you are using P(H) with a pride multiplier of 20, that is 20slvl pride(++). I have been using what is P3(H) in your image with a pride multiplier of 12, which is only pride(+). It turns out that makes a noticeable difference in how attractive pride looks. P2(H) is FLB pride(++), which neither of us are currently using in our discussion I believe.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The second graph shows the update with three prides in the weapon grid. Y axis is total assault mulitplier, x axis is hitpoints starting at 0 and going to 100% (5% per division)

To be more precise, it appears to be showing 2 pride(++) vs. 3 pride(++) and 1 vigoras(++)? You have a third image, which looks like 2 pride(++) vs. 3 pride(++) and 1 vigoras(+) with a smaller assault penalty for being (+) instead of (++).

Originally Posted by Dejnov

If I didn't have any pride weapons, I would be at a flat 2.36 assault.

Not sure how you end up with that, based on your formula, it looks like you have 3 20slvl assault(++) which have base assault of 0.16. Since you are using pride(++) in your formula, I assume you are comparing it to other assault(++), so without any pride, you should be looking at 5 assault(++) and 4 assault(+), all 20 slvl, which should be 132% assault giving a multiplier of 2.32 no? This is mere curiosity, that difference is not qualitatively material in any way whatsoever.

Btw, the shortcut I use is start with what your grid would be before you make your pride/vigoras decisions. For every pride(++) I add, I assume I replace an assault(++), which means I lose 6% base assault for a 0.2 increase in pride multiplier. For pride(+), I assume I replace an assault(+), which means I lose 3% base assault for 0.12 pride multiplier. For vigoras(++), I lose the entire assault(++), so lose 16% base assault for 20 vigoras base (slvl 20), and for vigoras(+), lose 13% base assault for 16 vigoras base.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The end result is that if you're interested in mitigating the issue you have in using pride weapon versus an assault weapon into your weapon grid is that you probably are better of pairing pride weapons with at least a single vigoras weapon to offset the assault loss at the higher hitpoints.

Actually, this depends on your premise. Let me show you my version of the charts (look basically the same as yours, I just normalize everything so the all assault case is at 1 instead of 2.36.)

Attachment 12500

a. If you are starting with the premise that you are stuck with at least 2 pride weapons and you want a more even dmg profile, you can add vigoras, which flattens the high hp portion of the curve, at the expense of dragging down the dmg around the center of the curve (compare red line to the other lines.)
b. If you are starting with the premise of having a full assault grid and you have the option to switch out some for pride and vigoras, then you are increasing dmg at low hp at the expense of lower dmg at mid to high hp (compare blue line to the other lines.)

There is no free lunch here.

One thing I dislike about pride/vigoras setup regardless of whether you are looking from perspective a or b is that it usually results in you losing assault around the center of the curve, which is usually where you spend most of your time in. What is good really depends on your build and what you are fighting as well. It sounds like you have an abilities and burst heavy build, so you want vigoras for abilities and pride for burst (assuming you eat some dmg to build burst quickly.) You also heal better than me, so you can more easily move your mid-hp himes back up to full health, whereas I might just be moving them around on the flat part of the curve for no gain at all. This discussion made me much more aware of what the curves look like and where those breakeven points are =)

Btw, when I added a second vigoras weapon, it tends to either look like regular vigoras or you come out ahead only at extreme hp ranges depending on how many pride weapons you pair it with. Would be curious to see if you find a combo that you like.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Let's start with two test cases that kind of summarize the issue with Abou.

So, I am going to skip the discussion of Abou without vigoras, 'cos I don't like that setup either and completely agree with you there. Abou with 1 vigoras(+) replacing 1 SR assault on the other hand can look very attractive but only within very narrow circumstances. Let me show you my chart first:



What I am showing here is a base case without Abou, and a change case with Abou and vigoras at various elemental level (A = assault, E = elemental, V = vigoras base.) All curves normalized such that the base case is at 1. The first case you described is the blue line - sacrificing 40% elemental for Abou; I also added sacrificing 13% assault for vigoras. Still doesn't look great. The second case you described is the yellow line, even worse. In fact, there is no reason you would do that 'cos the curve is always below 1. The one case where it looks very attractive is the one I pointed out in an earlier post: soul weapon + 100% eido friend + replacing your own 40% eido with Abou, that is the red line. As you can see, that sticks very close to 1 then goes above 1 around 70% hp, all the way up to 20% gain. For comparison, the pride/vigoras combo we were discussing gives you max of around 12% gain relative to all assault. It gets better if you have higher assault (green line) or higher elemental (LB or 120% friend eidolon - I did not bother plotting that one 'cos I don't have LB fluffy friends, and 120% eido dun exist for light.)

So, if you are in my boat, where you have a few friends with fluffy but you don't have one yourself, Abou may be worth considering. I think you mentioned you have LB2 thunderbird though, so it may not be attractive to you, since you are sacrificing 50% instead of 40% elemental (it will end up between red and blue line.)

Now back to grinding so I can MLB Abou and see if my theory pans out (currently at LB3, almost there!)

Originally Posted by Slashley

While I'm not touching the rest of the discussion with a five foot pole...

Only five foot? Most people prefer ten foot poles when I start pulling out charts =)