Quote Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac View Post
The raids are cleared so fast by other people you might as well don't need to bother using her, by the time you set up a buff the boss is probably whacked out of stun by other raiders.
Pretty much, I used to like her for my Wind attribute since it lacked damage but lately she's just been useless, not even reliable for Ragnarok raids. Maybe her only use is to aid thunder Thunder on his quest to kill before you get killed, that's very conditional though

Quote Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac View Post
Technically, yes Mars + Vine would be sufficient, but having an extra A frame def break just adds even more to the damage considering fire resist down and def breaks are not the same debuff, and therefore are not subject to the same caps. That does mean that for your case grabbing Hephaustus is the best case scenario, then you can run BB with Joan/ Gawain with BB.
Yeah, technically with Mars you would be able to hit a "hypothetical" -65% Defense Debuff if you factor the numbers her pseudo debuff leaves (factoring Vine as well) which is utterly insane, was Hephaustus Raguel (A Frame ATK SR debuffer) or someone else? I can't quite find her on the Gacha...
And yeah I was running Joan with EX Black Propaganda on R4 Accessory Quests alongside Summer Sol, Amaterasu, Svarog and the R Girl with a -10% DEF Debuffer, I didn't even need the healing drops to succeed on a 100% success rate, Joan is pretty much my way to go with Fire but if there was something I was missing out on with those two Souls I had to know...

Quote Originally Posted by sanahtlig View Post
My comment on Shingen's usefulness for Fire was based on the principle that Fire is built for damage, and therefore a Soul that greatly boosts spike damage would play to that strength. Rage Overdrives are Fire's Achilles heel; Shingen's Provisional Forest enables high-damage builds to bypass the Rage phase entirely in most encounters, especially with Mars and Vine. The caveat is that Fire lacks Burst gauge buffs, so ensuring that the Soul gets the Burst buff requires sacrificing debuff potential from the Soul.

Joan + Black Propaganda would be highly effective for Fire teams post-Mars, as it covers Fire's main weakness: powerful Overdrives and lack of endurance. Pre-Mars you wouldn't have sufficient DEF down, nor would you be able to land your debuffs reliably. As long as Sphinx is ready to ensure Mars's debuff lands, Fire is freed from the need to run Mordred all the time.

So post-Mars, Fire has the choice between a Burst build and a Versatile build. I would favor the Versatile build for solo content, and the Burst build for group content.
I'd say your observation is correct, sometimes I used neglect BP and go full A Frame to prioritize Ares' Nuke and attempt to get out of Rage as soon as possible, this is quite risky and tends to fail therefore I switched to a more "stable" strategy.
Since I got Dakki I haven't had any issue with the Raging phase due to her Double/Triple Rate up paired with Rampaging to the whole party, maybe this will be even better when I gather the Holy SP to unlock Shingen on an all out attack mentality rather than doing this with Joan, what has me worried is that this strategy won't work on the latter content (AKA Guild Quest Order) but it's still manageable with Joan and a Healer.

In my opinion another issue with Fire was the inability to use Mordred with an SSR Weapon since there hasn't been an Event with an SSR Fire Sword or Glaive, I don't run into that Issue since I have Gacha SSR Weapons for Mordred but that's a big hindering for Black Propaganda and Vicissitudes of Fortune to some extend. Disregarding that; since almost every Fire build heavily leans on Amaterasu Outrage ends up being an useless skill, that and all the Skills Joan disposes of are useful makes most Fire players ignore Mordred.

Speaking Ragnarok Advents they're a piece of cake for my Fire team disregarding the attribute of the Advent except Water but this quite changes if a debuff misses and you don't start with a loaded Sphinx, that's where Joan saves your butt, thanks to both who answered.