Thread: [Event 12] Apocalypse & Phoenix Rematch

Erm, kinda yes/no? Yes, the eidolons stack, but the thing is Character Atk vs elemental Atk are calculated separately. Elemental attack (like on apocalypse) becomes FAR more useful than character atk with your weapons grid. There's a post that talks about the actual math (with proofs), but basically take it like this: elemental attack is better. It actually becomes worth MORE as your weapons grid rises. Almost exponentially more.

Originally Posted by Inb4whales

Also before you MLB Apocalypse I have a question to ask you.
Why are you MLB-ing Apocalypse?
Do you wish to aim for an all fire 40% team? Because if you already have MLB Crom, Crom is the superior Eidolon here (even though her debuff upon summon kinda sucks).
Do you want an all dark 40% team? If so, wait for 4 more events down the line (a 1 month wait) and you'll have a Dullahan (dark element 40%, 20% HP) raid event where you can easily MLB her.

Because at the moment, I see no reason why any new players (in the presence of time shortage) would want to MLB Apocalypse unless you're going for a dual element Dark+Fire team.
An Eidolon with a light element on the other hand... it will literally take around 3 months for another event SSR light element Eido to get here and even THAT Eidolon is much weaker compared to Phoenix in terms of providing raw stat. Sphinx can only provide 30% max light damage increase at MLB just like all the single element Advent Eidolons.

Element Atk =/= Character Element Atk.

Damage formula
( 1 + a + b ) * ( 1 + c ) = x
a = character type boost from eidolons
b = boost from weapon skills
c = element type boost from eidolons

Let's pretend you have 100% damage boost from your weapons.

With 40% character boost (Crom)
(1 + .4 + 1) * (1 + 0)
2.4 * 1 = 2.4
240% damage

With 40% element boost (Apocalypse)
(1 + 0 + 1) * (1 + .4)
2 * 1.4 = 2.8
280% damage

You loss 40% damage using Crom over Apocalypse and that value only gets wider the more you level your weapon skill.

Originally Posted by gottesurteil

Erm, kinda yes/no? Yes, the eidolons stack, but the thing is Character Atk vs elemental Atk are calculated separately. Elemental attack (like on apocalypse) becomes FAR more useful than character atk with your weapons grid. There's a post that talks about the actual math (with proofs), but basically take it like this: elemental attack is better. It actually becomes worth MORE as your weapons grid rises. Almost exponentially more.

I have a calculator for this that allows you to input arbitrary character attack and elemental attack bonuses, and even accounts for burst combo bonuses and teams with off-element kamihime. So you can compare relative damage for two potential teams using your personal assault skill and eidolons.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Element Atk =/= Character Element Atk.

Damage formula
( 1 + a + b ) * ( 1 + c ) = x
a = character type boost from eidolons
b = boost from weapon skills
c = element type boost from eidolons

Let's pretend you have 100% damage boost from your weapons.

With 40% character boost (Crom)
(1 + .4 + 1) * (1 + 0)
2.4 * 1 = 2.4
240% damage

With 40% element boost (Apocalypse)
(1 + 0 + 1) * (1 + .4)
2 * 1.4 = 2.8
280% damage

You loss 40% damage using Crom over Apocalypse and that value only gets wider the more you level your weapon skill.

That's actually a 14% damage loss using your numbers. You forgot to divide the 0.4 difference by 2.8.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Element Atk =/= Character Element Atk.

Damage formula
( 1 + a + b ) * ( 1 + c ) = x
a = character type boost from eidolons
b = boost from weapon skills
c = element type boost from eidolons

Let's pretend you have 100% damage boost from your weapons.

With 40% character boost (Crom)
(1 + .4 + 1) * (1 + 0)
2.4 * 1 = 2.4
240% damage

With 40% element boost (Apocalypse)
(1 + 0 + 1) * (1 + .4)
2 * 1.4 = 2.8
280% damage

You loss 40% damage using Crom over Apocalypse and that value only gets wider the more you level your weapon skill.

Many thanks.
I thought the whole "element character atk" and "character atk" are simply one and the same since that kind of misconception has never been cleared up once anywhere in the game. So basically what I can take from this is Element ATK is ALWAYS better than Character ATK because even without any ATK boost from the weapon grid, both values are on equal ground yes?

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

That's actually a 14% damage loss using your numbers. You forgot to divide the 0.4 difference by 2.8.

There shouldn't be any dividing in the formula unless there's more too it. It was more or less a copy of the formula made in a different topic.

Originally Posted by Inb4whales

Many thanks.
I thought the whole "element character atk" and "character atk" are simply one and the same since that kind of misconception has never been cleared up once anywhere in the game. So basically what I can take from this is Element ATK is ALWAYS better than Character ATK because even without any ATK boost from the weapon grid, both values are on equal ground yes?

No, character attack is better in some circumstances. See my calculator.

Originally Posted by Aidoru

There shouldn't be any dividing in the formula unless there's more too it. It was more or less a copy of the formula made in a different topic.

It wasn't your damage formula calcuation that was wrong. It was your interpretation of it. You claimed a 40% damage loss, but didn't do the extra calculation necessary to show that (a percent difference calculation). As a result, you arrived at a misleading conclusion.

well, finally i can auto-farm ultimate. good event

Best Win.

So has a fairly new player, I gathered from this thread that i should focus myself on the eidolon first.
But isn't focusing on the SSR weapon first be better ?

Mainly for the fact that you need 10 weapons and only 6 eidolons, plus you have even more diversity to worry about with the weapon type & element as opposed to just the element for the eidolon.

Lastly it's cheaper to MLB weapon rather than eidolon, considering that I have to do both event at the same time, that's also quite important.

Am I wrong ?

Originally Posted by Fikari

So has a fairly new player, I gathered from this thread that i should focus myself on the eidolon first.
But isn't focusing on the SSR weapon first be better ?

Mainly for the fact that you need 10 weapons and only 6 eidolons, plus you have even more diversity to worry about with the weapon type & element as opposed to just the element for the eidolon.

Lastly it's cheaper to MLB weapon rather than eidolon, considering that I have to do both event at the same time, that's also quite important.

Am I wrong ?

You're kinda wrong. So the thing about that is that your end goal should be to have 6 SSR eidolons that are MBL. Only ONE of those actually contributes it's passive, so having a bunch of different element SSRs is good, as they all contribute their stats, and you have options for diffferent teams.

Weapons, however, you want a full sheet of weapons for one element. I don't know how far you've progressed, but say, if you're a Fire main type - as in your weapon grid is full of fire weapons... well in that case all these dark and light weapons are totally useless to you. Most people recommend grabbing 1 copy of each SSR to act as your 'mainhand' weapon, because it determines your burst strength.

So if you're a fire player... all these weapons, SR and SSR included, are useless. But those two Eidolons, when maxed, will still be on your team all the way through endgame. Of course, it's a different story if your main element is light or dark.