Thread: Help on improving team for advance content

Originally Posted by Aidoru

You doing 26% less damage in place of using Amaterasu and Joan with Black Propaganda would most likely increase your survival 2 or 3 times as much as it is now.

Originally Posted by dreadpin

i'm not sure how u evaluate over skills/hp/atk.....maybe i'm a noob myself but my setup is as below and i would really like Amaterasu in my team, her atk/def down is better than sniper shot...with that i can free sniper shot from my Soul and get a better skills(example Dullahan required maiden's prayer to remove the death debuff otherwise u need to get a specific Hime just for that which dropped the ur damage more severely, i'm using Belobog in my dark team for that....so u can imagine...a light hime without weapon skills nor eido effect...)

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i tried to swap SSR HP to SR ATK and guess what, the damage is nearly the same from 13k-17k per hit so why not having more hp with additional burst effect? by the way, they are all skills 20
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I have Echidna 1 star but she is not even fit into my list, i tried it last time and she disappointed me...
Dullahan is backup when i needed more hp > atk

I think I should be more specific with my problem. The last time my dark kamihime got wrekted straight into an elixir was during the Ragnarok Ixion and Typhon fight. I tried a combination of Joan with black propaganda for Ixion, but I still had to eat eat her burst without Joan's defense at least once or twice before the cooldown for the next one. Burst lock from Ixion forced me to fight alot longer than I was used to which killed my kamihime (didn't have amaterasu at the time so didn't try it with her). After 3 tries I switched to Andromeda with black propaganda later with a bit better success rate (50% without an elixir).

For the Typhon fight well all I can say is why does she not die, her hp was ridiculous to me for an advent fight. I didn't use Amaterasu because I didn't think any of her debuffs would stick nor did I use Joan because I thought Andromeda's 1600 hp heal was better than Joan's regen, nor do I understand how large the defense difference between Joan's defense skill vs. Andromeda's is. So if possible could someone explain their difference on surivivability to me?

The key factor I saw in these fights was sustainability. So although I can understand your argument for a general better survivability use Amaterasu and Joan, in these cases I do not think using either of them would have improved my odds.
The reason why I'm writing this now instead of back then was because I heard that some Ragnarok fights will only get harder with Ixion and Typhon being medium difficulty at best. So I am trying to understand the consensus of how being mono-element could work given that my weapon skill are getting close to being maxed out yet fighting these off-element medium difficulty Ragnarok become 50-50 coin flips.

Originally Posted by dreadpin

also if u so emphasize on atk...instead of skills, try remove ur Beelzebub since she is one of the lowest atk...--

While Beelz herself has low attack, her team buffs are insane. Unless you're packing a full on-element SSR team (and sometimes even then) or are lacking in -Def debuffs, Beelz can easily fit into any team. Even more so in a Dark teams where her attacks aren't that far off from your main cast.

And are you really wondering why your damage is about the same whether you have 180 or 200 skill levels in Assault? The difference between ~117% Assault and ~130% Assault exists, but it's hard to see with the naked unless you're taking notes, due to damage range.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by darkace51

-- nor do I understand how large the defense difference between Joan's defense skill vs. Andromeda's is. So if possible could someone explain their difference on surivivability to me?--

Andromeda is like 20% less damage for 3 turns, Joan is -40% for one turn. In other words, against something that does a lot of burst damage like Typhon, Joan is far superior - at least, if you have some source of heals to get you back up. Also against Typhon, saving your -atk debuffs for when she does her burst is what saves you.

And keep in mind that Typhon Ragnarok was literally months in advance on Nutaku.

Note that damage reduction is not the same as defense up. Although I think they might work the same, not exactly sure how defense works. Not in terms of frames, they are literally different buff categories.

Andromeda's defense buff is listed as 20% defense, however defense works, and Joan is -40% damage reduction. In addition to that Joan has a -20% atk down debuff, which you could have used on Typhon before it used its overdrive. Amaterasu's defense buff is 30% defense according to the jp wiki and because they are separate category you could have stacked Amaterasu's defensive buff with Joan's defensive and atk down to mitigate even more damage from its raging overdrive. Though I'm sure one of the biggest factors for a dark teams against Ragnarok Typhon was the lack of HP eidolons. The fight itself was rather simple, just a build up burst, eat 2 regular overdrives, full burst at rage, mitigate a raging overdrive, push into stun, and pretty much win since she's had a very long stun phase, enough to recovery all skills, build up burst and even heal off of regen skills.

My weaker light team (SSR Raphael, SR Artemis, SR Belebog, SSR Amaterasu) has been able to clear all Advent Ragnaroks. No defender weapons and only 1 SSR weapon, rest SRs, so you can guess how low my HP is, the only bonus HP I can get is from relying on a friend with Hecatonchires. I did draw Metatron last week though so I'm not sure if she'll be making a big difference for future content.

Originally Posted by darkace51

For the Typhon fight well all I can say is why does she not die, her hp was ridiculous to me for an advent fight. I didn't use Amaterasu because I didn't think any of her debuffs would stick nor did I use Joan because I thought Andromeda's 1600 hp heal was better than Joan's regen, nor do I understand how large the defense difference between Joan's defense skill vs. Andromeda's is. So if possible could someone explain their difference on surivivability to me?

wait...u using Joan/Andromeda with Black propaganda? no B frame debuff? as i recall, Typhon fight basically need to stay alive and save up burst, after that put all debuffs up when she's in rage and burst her into stun...during her stun period is ur dps window since she's unable to dispel those debuffs for few rounds(i got dark amon to reduce rage bar and prolong the stun period)

Originally Posted by Slashley

While Beelz herself has low attack, her team buffs are insane. Unless you're packing a full on-element SSR team (and sometimes even then) or are lacking in -Def debuffs, Beelz can easily fit into any team. Even more so in a Dark teams where her attacks aren't that far off from your main cast.

I just trying to point out Amaterasu is good...because of skill not the stats and using Beelz as example.....if a Hime with 3 awesome skills then u probably need to prioritize her unless there is a Hime with good skills + same element

as for assault skill, if it's hard to see with the naked eye which mean it just a slight difference that does not matter

if u had Amaterasu in the fight, u can put def up in every overdrive... Typhon has 3 turn to overdrive with Black Propaganda it's 4 turn, Amaterasu and Andromeda both Def up are 6 turns CD, regen and heals + the blind should be able to sustain very well....

Originally Posted by Aidoru

Note that damage reduction is not the same as defense up. Although I think they might work the same, not exactly sure how defense works. Not in terms of frames, they are literally different buff categories.

Andromeda's defense buff is listed as 20% defense, however defense works, and Joan is -40% damage reduction. In addition to that Joan has a -20% atk down debuff, which you could have used on Typhon before it used its overdrive. Amaterasu's defense buff is 30% defense according to the jp wiki and because they are separate category you could have stacked Amaterasu's defensive buff with Joan's defensive and atk down to mitigate even more damage from its raging overdrive. Though I'm sure one of the biggest factors for a dark teams against Ragnarok Typhon was the lack of HP eidolons. The fight itself was rather simple, just a build up burst, eat 2 regular overdrives, full burst at rage, mitigate a raging overdrive, push into stun, and pretty much win since she's had a very long stun phase, enough to recovery all skills, build up burst and even heal off of regen skills.

My weaker light team (SSR Raphael, SR Artemis, SR Belebog, SSR Amaterasu) has been able to clear all Advent Ragnaroks. No defender weapons and only 1 SSR weapon, rest SRs, so you can guess how low my HP is, the only bonus HP I can get is from relying on a friend with Hecatonchires. I did draw Metatron last week though so I'm not sure if she'll be making a big difference for future content.

Originally Posted by dreadpin

if u had Amaterasu in the fight, u can put def up in every overdrive... Typhon has 3 turn to overdrive with Black Propaganda it's 4 turn, Amaterasu and Andromeda both Def up are 6 turns CD, regen and heals + the blind should be able to sustain very well....

You might be right. Was hesitant on using Amaterasu on Typhon since she hits for like 4k-5k when Andromeda's defense skill was up and Amaterasu without a weapon or eidolon hp bonus had only about 7k hp compared to 9k-10k for dark kamihime supported with the defender. Didn't think she would survive past two overdrives.

Blind, black propaganda, or any other debuffs applied during the fight was unreliable for any turn besides the turn they were applied on, but using Amaterasu's B-frame debuff as a one turn damage mitigation might have been a better idea than focusing on the defense down portion of the debuff.

On that note, I was under the assumption that it was frowned upon to use mixed color teams. But in this case it seems that a mix color team is pretty much required to complement Dark's current lack of sustain. So I would like to ask what's the general rule of thumb of using different color kamihime?

It's mostly just Amaterasu and Sol who are often praised and recommended to use regardless of element because of how great their skills are. Amaterasu basically removes the need to use Sniper Shot on your soul and other defensive support while Sol is just a great healer and debuffer with a dispel and a rare c-frame atk down. Note that this is regular Sol we are talking about. Summer Sol is alright but regular Sol is on another level of usefulness.

Though I would personally not recommend using both at the same time in a team that is neither of their elements.

Amaterasu does have a time limited dark version though, which is just as good if not better.

Few things:

1. My toolbox has two calculators that factor in debuffs (simple and advanced). You should be using the simple one, at the very least. That will tell you that Amaterasu yields an overall DPS boost (or break even) due to the massive benefit of -20% DEF. Not only that, she increases survivability with her -20% ATK, regen, and DEF buff. The Advanced calculator factors in buff/debuff uptime, but requires more setup time.
2. The Advanced calculator DOES factor in damage skills. It's set to the skills of my team by default, but you can substitute in your team's skills if you know (or can guess) the damage multipliers.
3. The simple buff/debuff calculator features a basic survivability calculator that compares the effects of the various buffs/debuffs on incoming damage and how many hits your kamihime would be able to take before dying. It sounds like even Aidoru might benefit from taking a look at this.
4. You're drawing erroneous general conclusions from your bad experiences with particular encounters. Yes, each Ragnarok is unique and you need to adapt to each fight's particular mechanics. But you shouldn't lose sight of the general mechanics that underlie all encounters. What didn't work for one Ragnarok may work for others. I can sit here and explain to you what went wrong for you in each fight, but that's not really important right now.

Keep in mind that many of the people posting in this topic are veterans with extensive experience clearing Ragnaroks, some specializing in Dark teams. When you have multiple veterans independently arriving at the same conclusion, it's unlikely they're flat-out wrong. My tools are helpful for exploring game mechanics and optimizing your team (if you take all the relevant factors into account!), but they probably won't help you prove that veterans are fundamentally misunderstanding game mechanics. More likely, you're failing to account for an important factor or you're misinterpreting the output.

Using Amaterasu for the upcoming event's Ragnarok might be a bit questionable though, since it is water. I probably will still, at least for the first attempt.

the blind is quite something to me, u casted that in first turn which u avoided a 3 strikes that kill a Hime, even if the boss dispel it immediately u can consider that it deal 0 dmg that turn....otherwise it continue to miss her hits for few turns

black propaganda only used when Typhon is in rage and at 3/3 overdrive which u unable to stun her in time

mix color is bad but some times the skill just too good to be miss....i usually taking 3 dark + 1 random hime with necessary skills

example
Typhon - Nike for def up and heals to last longer to save up burst
Dullahan - Belobog for remove death debuff from my 3 primary himes
Garuda - not much threat to me, i use full dark

if i had Hades i think i can use full dark for every Rag since she can cover 4 things blind, def up, prevent debuff and atk down