On persistent social toxicity in this forum

[sanahtlig]

This discussion branches off from here.

I've noticed over the past few weeks that name-calling, disrespect, and social aggression have creeped into discussions on this forum, both from registered and unregistered users. This board is mostly unmoderated, and without an arbitrator these disputes have continued to grow in frequency and severity.

My goals for this discussion are the following:
Characterize the problem
Identify the scope of the problem: How severe/prevalent is the problem?
Determine the urgency of the problem: How quickly and aggressively do we need to act?
Identify coping mechanisms to mitigate the problem: i.e., providing guidelines and counseling individuals who have been involved in these disputes
Identify long-term solutions: This may require technical and organizational changes like disabling posting by unregistered users. Technical limitations with the forum software or settings could make a long-term solution difficult or impossible without aggressive measures such as shifting the community elsewhere.

That should get the discussion started. I'll update this post as necessary based on feedback.

[Delete]

While I have been posting only recently, I have been reading the forum for a couple months. And I agree with Sanahtlig, recently there has been some insults and hostility that hurts the discussion. The shame is that the themes with that problem (Wind Catastrophe) would be an interesting discussion with a more civil tone. In fact, my lasts runs on Catastrophe, with Arthur, where much better that the first ones with Mordred and trying to land debuff like usual, so I can partially agree with some people (with my limited knowledge; I'm far from a veteran). But there are times where the tone can indeed be against your position. Bad language do not support a good conversation.

We should all try to calm a bit, I suppose. ^^

[Cobblemaniac]

We should all try to calm a bit, I suppose. ^^

This. This is probably a very good method of damage control for those that are currently looking at the thread, and ripping their heads out for whatever reason. Take some time off the computer and chill for a bit.

From whatever I've posted from the previous thread, I'll transfer here, so context will apply from what I've posted in the wind ragna thread, although I would like to post a quick message to VeryVoodoo (quoted so those reading my input can skip this easily):

I apologise if I came across as grouping your methods of arguments in the "hoho you're a shitbag" category bag, for the sake of fairness I've went past previous threads to make sure I wasn't making the wrong judgement for you, and indeed, you've tried your best to keep as civil as possible, I re-emphasise that I am terribly sorry. What I have observed is that you are noticeably losing your patience as the argument goes along (most notably in the general discussions thread), and that argument has probably tainted your impression of a few of our members here. Hell, my message probably already tainted your impression of me. I only ask of you this: please don't take it to heart, be it that general discussion issue, my message, or anything else, and let's try not to point fingers about anything, even if I am indeed hypocritically doing so right now.

With that out of the way, this is what I have observed so far:

The forum today phases between very helpful and the insult firestorm that we see from the linked thread. There is a pattern to this phase; when there is consensus on something, or a person asks for information about event technicalities and stuff you can find in the wiki (JP or not), helpful mode applies, we're good on that. The problem comes when we disagree, some corrections that come in do so rather aggressively, which of course, is like a spark to a gas tank of toxic arguments, either there is damage control to prevent that spark from inducing an explosion, or kaboom goes the thread.

The unregistered user issue is something of concern, there have been particularly helpful unregistered users, but I fear that the mask of anonymity is an issue when we determine the root of the problem; what root is there in the first place? On the flipside, I do believe that necessitating registered posting and commenting kinda gives helpful users the recognition they deserve, although not necessarily the recognition they want. Current observation tells me that most unregistered users also fall within the same patterns of phasing as I've described in the paragraph above, and therefore solving that issue should bring a temporary closure to this issue as well.

[Marigold]

Now it's pretty easy to account for the various incidents that had been going on for a few months to the latest issue but the fact still remains, maybe yes language was a bit rough and pointing at someone before calling them out is rude but we aren't five year olds in kindergarten to make such a drama over it.

Now about this last issue, even if the way in which I said such things is rude or unpolite which I understand shouldn't be the way; I still stand by what I said.

You shouldn't advice members on content you don't understand or can't clear, you shouldn't "debate over misinformation" or "speculate about something" when the OP asked for a concise strategy, at least not in the same thread, even less when you have somewhat of a good reputation in the forums due to your activity.
And even less defy members that can clear that content and have a cohesive understanding over it and their advice.

Does this meet you standards without hurting your feelings now?, it's pretty easy to digest I think.

On my "misinformation is a bitch" statement, I reffered to this since a big number of players desert the game over being stuck at some point, a bad advice, a speculative one or a missinformed discussion about it can led to it, the fact that your friend was "correcting" a player that gave a good advice with a bad one was the main motivation behind it.

For now I'm not going to reffer to the theme since at this point it's pretty much attention milking, regardless of it; have a good one and maybe we both can learn from each other later, we were both wrong in our ways after all, you by sneaking your nose in something you don't understand and me by being unpolite and rude, cheers.

[Unregistered]

Tbh both ways are wrong, sana and slash thinking they know stuff when they dont (advicing on content they dont clear/struggle) and players speaking truth but in a harsh manner, so first thing first:

1- Stop advicing on content you cant clear/struggle, that just spreads the missinfo further and increases the bad reputation hbc already has in terms of kh ignorance.
2- Choose the words wisely when speaking trush, as some1 said, without insults.

If point 1 is satisfied, people wont have any need of calling some1 out and will give advice as such without insults, cause you know, they get pissed when people think they know stuff when they actually dont.

[Unregistered]

This is why I have yet to register for these forums. There's a strong sense of negative bias towards certain users maybe because something they've said once that triggered the other or something, I wouldn't know. Talking about this won't fix anything as seen above. The only thing that would remotely solve this is getting forum moderators, which this site has none, only kotono, the admin, has any power of these forums.

[Unregistered]

This is why I have yet to register for these forums. There's a strong sense of negative bias towards certain users maybe because something they've said once that triggered the other or something, I wouldn't know. Talking about this won't fix anything as seen above. The only thing that would remotely solve this is getting forum moderators, which this site has none, only kotono, the admin, has any power of these forums.

You're being too childish about it and men don't resolve any issues by complaining with their mommas
For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

[Delete]

You're being too childish about it and men don't resolve any issues by complaining with their mommas
For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

Request for a discussion with some education and manners are not "complaining to mommas". On the contrary, the childish option is use some rough manners. Specially when you may have some spark of merit to your opinions.

[Unregistered]

You're being too childish about it and men don't resolve any issues by complaining with their mommas
For me the main solution for this is learning to ignore both responding-wise and debunking-wise when the responses are unsatisfactory or just plain wrong this to avoid first misinformation and later insults

This is a fine example of the childish mentality society has forced on people to avoid being called a 'tattletale', a 'snitch', etc. Telling someone with the power to stop something from going out of control is far better than simply ignoring it. Ignoring it solves nothing and is part of the problem. That's why this topic was made in the first place.

[VeryVoodoo]

I apologise if I came across as grouping your methods of arguments in the "hoho you're a shitbag" category bag, for the sake of fairness I've went past previous threads to make sure I wasn't making the wrong judgement for you, and indeed, you've tried your best to keep as civil as possible, I re-emphasise that I am terribly sorry. What I have observed is that you are noticeably losing your patience as the argument goes along (most notably in the general discussions thread), and that argument has probably tainted your impression of a few of our members here. Hell, my message probably already tainted your impression of me. I only ask of you this: please don't take it to heart, be it that general discussion issue, my message, or anything else, and let's try not to point fingers about anything, even if I am indeed hypocritically doing so right now.

Fair enough, lol. Also there's no need for you to apologize as I took no offense from it, was mainly just amused.

As for that discussion from the General Discussion thread, honestly for me, it was just a conversation between two people with differing viewpoints or dissenting opinions. It seems like others in the community may have used that discussion as the train they could use to jump on to personally attack parties that they might've had beefs with in the past. Though, I have no idea if that's the case as I don't frequent these forums enough to know. In fact, the only reason I engaged in the conversation in the first place was since the other party directly quoted and addressed me, which I just happened to see, and asked what seemed like pointed questions. So I responded, but it soon became clear to me that they weren't actually interested in having a detailed discussion about it at all since they quickly disengaged while saying things like "no one HAS to engage in a discussion" with others if they don't want to, which technically is true. Only it left me a bit confused as to why they engaged me in the first place at all if that was the case. Either way, I don't particularly care one way or the other, nor am I offended by it in the least.

And I have to parrot your statement in regards to unregistered users. There certainly are ones that are particularly helpful, but there are also those that seem to use this mask of anonymity to carry out what seems like personal grudges or attacks on others. Requiring posters to be registered would at least fix that latter part.