Thread: [Event 55] Raid Battle vs Trivia

Originally Posted by Unregistered

been bothering me since the event began but who is that girl in background image above diana with the horns and 2 different eye colours
she's not in the game so yeah been bothering me :P

Came as a collab login bonus afaik from her DMM entry that happened to coincide with Trivia.

We'll likely get her true another login bonus or as a gift after maintenance, although no one can actually predict when.

I remember reading that rush/double attack is pretty useless, is the triple worth anything, or is this ssr basically just an assault?

Supposedly double is bad but triple is good. Honestly, it's quite likely they're both good as long as there is Assault to go with it.

208/98 rn. Maybe i will just try for 250/100. Pretty hard to find wind catasthrope during this event haha.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember reading that rush/double attack is pretty useless, is the triple worth anything, or is this ssr basically just an assault?

So there are two separate issues/topics regarding rush:

1. Supposedly, the game is coded such that whether you double attack or not is rolled before whether you triple attack. In most cases, this isn't a noticable issue. But it can get weird when you're planning for really high levels of triple attack. It's basically a case of, don't worry about it unless you specifically game plan for high/guaranteed triple attacks.


2. Rush's merit as a second skill on a weapon; most of the time the focus will be on Rush (S) specifically.

To be clear, when it comes time to choosing between Assault (L) (that will dead end as that) and Assault (M)/Rush (S) for your grid, strictly on the basis of skills, you should pick the dual skill. Assault (L) at skill lvl 20 is +16% to assault. Assault (M)/Rush (S) at lvl 20 is +13% to assault and... +1-2% to double attack rate. DMM players are still testing Rush and Barrage out, so I've seen both 1% and 2% listed for Rush (S) at lv 20.
Some old advent SSRs that are pure Assault (L) get FLB sooner or later. The ones that do pick up Defender (S), so for this purpose, I'm not counting them as pure single skill weapons in the long term.
(future content) Also, if you're at the endgame, you may have picked up phantom/illusion weapons from the new ragnarok disaster raids. These weapons usually have amazing second skills, but they require you to use at least 6 weapons of the same type to activate. In that scenario, you may have to make concessions regarding the skills in your grid to accomodate that requirement.
Now with that out of the way...

Let's say you're at the point where you have 10 dual skill SSRs in your grid as you've been playing this game for quite a while. They're all Assault or Pride something as one skill with something else as the other. Then you pick up another dual skill SSR, as you're still playing this game. You have decisions to make on whether to include that new SSR in your grid or not. The stuff you've FLB'd by this point will presumably stay in the grid, as why waste the materials you spent on FLBing, right? So that leaves the weapons that are stuck at lv 125/skill lv 20.
I'll leave out the consideration for +20% stats from preferred weapons types and simplify this down to just skill comparisons.
Since everything in your grid should be raising your assault one way or another, we look at the other skill. Let's look at what the other skills offer at lv 20. Getting Rush and Barrage out of the way first as those are the least clear and are still being tested.

Rush (S) - as mentioned earlier, raises your double attack by 1% (as listed on the skills effect page itself) or up to 2% (from recent comments)
Rush (M) - the page lists 3%. I've seen comments pegging it closer to ~5%
Rush (L) - unlisted on the page unfortunately. The (not yet confirmed) logical guess would be to add a couple more percentage points to Medium's effect.
While it's still hazy, things generally point to the small sized effect as kind of sucking.

Barrage (S) - raise triple attack by... 1% according to the page.
Barrage (M) - the page says 2%
Barrage (L) - unlisted
I see more people testing Rush than Barrage :/
The % increase to the rates themselves are probably a bit behind those of Rush's, but the payoff is of course, triple attack vs double attack.

Defender (S) - raise HP by 10%
Defender (M) - raise HP by 13%
Defender (L) - raise HP by 16%
Now if you notice, starting from Defender on, the small effect isn't absurdly proportionally small in relation to the medium or large. You'll see that when comparing small against small, Rush (S) looks really bad.

Stinger (S) - currently thought to be 10% chance of an activation
Stinger (M) - currently thought to be 13% chance of an activation
Stinger (L) - currently thought to be 16% chance of an activation
Stinger is basically the critical effect; if you have elemental advantage, you roll the dice. If you roll a success, you get bonus damage. The interesting thing about Stinger is that each individual Stinger skill gets its own roll. Each success/activation you get, you add 20% to special atk*.
Example: You have 3 weapons with Stinger (S) at lv 20 and you have advantage. Each time you attack/use a direct damage skill/burst, roll the dice 3 times. Each die that succeeds at 10% each adds 20% to special. So 1 success = +20% to special. 2 successes = +40% to special. 3 successes = +60% to special.
What happens if you use a kamihime's critical attack buff while having stinger in the grid? I don't know :/
*special is another multiplier, like assault/character_atk or elemental_atk. Current examples of bonuses to special_atk are berserk and the stun/rage punishers.

Exceed (S) - +30% burst damage (this is the burst damage buff that has a cap of +500%), and +20% burst damage attenuation value/soft damage cap
Exceed (M) - I'm assuming +45% burst damage. The lv 20 is actually unlisted, but it's +26% at lv 1. The scaling looks like +1% per lvl. +30% to burst damage attenuation value
Exceed (L) - the +burst damage is completely unlisted. +40% to burst damage attenuation value
The +burst damage isn't all that important unless you have a lot of it. The increase to the soft damage cap of your burst attacks is the really important aspect. If you didn't already know, every attack has an attentuation value/soft damage cap. If/when you go over this, all additional damage past this cap is reduced to one tenth of what it originally was. An individual kamihime's burst attack normally has a soft damage cap of 1 million. If you would have dealt 2 million damage, it gets reduced to 1 million + (1 million / 10) = 1.1 million. Raising the cap by 20% (that is, to 1.2 million), changes that to 1.2 million + (800k / 10) = 1.28 million.
Exceed's ability to raise the soft damage cap is itself limited to +100%
Now since there are some kamihime with the ability to raise their own burst attenuation value (like awakened Uriel) or an ally's (like water Freya), I don't know how those work with Exceed. DMM players care to chime in?

Ascension (S) - raise the upper limit of healing by 24%/raise healing amount by 3%. Unless your max HP is low, the important thing is raising the upper limit of healing.
Ascension (M) - raise the upper limit by 27%/raise amount by 4%
Ascension (L) - raise the upper limit by 30%/raise amount by 5%
Remember the +healing buff in union events? Or how awakened Sol's Caldo Luce has a side effect of buffing heals for a few turns? It's that in weapon skill form. Buffs to the upper limit of healing are themselves capped to +200%. I expect that to only potentially be an issue during union events.

Vigorous (S) - uhh... let's say it peaks at +8.5% to special atk
Vigorous (M) - peaks at +12% to special atk
Vigorous (L) - peaks at 15.5% to special atk
So this adds to special atk depending on the percentage of HP you have left. The more, the better (like an inverse Pride, but adds to special instead of assault). However, while Pride's formula is linear, Vigorous.... isn't. It degrades fast. If you're going to run Vigorous, you better be good at staying as healthy as you can for your important attacks.

Elaborate - +30% ability damage; apparently this aspect remains the same regardless of small/medium/large
It also raises the attenuation value for abilities; +2%/+3.5%/+5%. I'm not sure if that's just for lv 1 and then it goes up from there, or that's for all skill levels.
If you don't know how +abilty damage works; it's better if your abilities add up to a larger number of hits. Abilities that do few hits (at worst, they're single hitters), don't benefit a lot. The reason is that direct damage abilities are structured as (# of hits) * (damage_multiplier). +ability damage just directly adds to that damage_multiplier.

Really, the only nitpick I have of that (quite impressive) wall of text is this:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

--
1. Supposedly, the game is coded such that whether you double attack or not is rolled before whether you triple attack. In most cases, this isn't a noticable issue. But it can get weird when you're planning for really high levels of triple attack. It's basically a case of, don't worry about it unless you specifically game plan for high/guaranteed triple attacks.
--

I believe guaranteed triple (such as Cu) ignore double attack chance entirely. So it's only a problem if you plan for extreme levels of triple specifically.

Also, damn. I've been saying for ages that it's very likely that Rush is being underrated in % in the wiki. I guess people are finally properly testing it.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So there are two separate issues/topics regarding rush:

1. Supposedly, the game is coded such that whether you double attack or not is rolled before whether you triple attack. In most cases, this isn't a noticable issue. But it can get weird when you're planning for really high levels of triple attack. It's basically a case of, don't worry about it unless you specifically game plan for high/guaranteed triple attacks.


2. Rush's merit as a second skill on a weapon; most of the time the focus will be on Rush (S) specifically.

To be clear, when it comes time to choosing between Assault (L) (that will dead end as that) and Assault (M)/Rush (S) for your grid, strictly on the basis of skills, you should pick the dual skill. Assault (L) at skill lvl 20 is +16% to assault. Assault (M)/Rush (S) at lvl 20 is +13% to assault and... +1-2% to double attack rate. DMM players are still testing Rush and Barrage out, so I've seen both 1% and 2% listed for Rush (S) at lv 20.
Some old advent SSRs that are pure Assault (L) get FLB sooner or later. The ones that do pick up Defender (S), so for this purpose, I'm not counting them as pure single skill weapons in the long term.
(future content) Also, if you're at the endgame, you may have picked up phantom/illusion weapons from the new ragnarok disaster raids. These weapons usually have amazing second skills, but they require you to use at least 6 weapons of the same type to activate. In that scenario, you may have to make concessions regarding the skills in your grid to accomodate that requirement.
Now with that out of the way...

Let's say you're at the point where you have 10 dual skill SSRs in your grid as you've been playing this game for quite a while. They're all Assault or Pride something as one skill with something else as the other. Then you pick up another dual skill SSR, as you're still playing this game. You have decisions to make on whether to include that new SSR in your grid or not. The stuff you've FLB'd by this point will presumably stay in the grid, as why waste the materials you spent on FLBing, right? So that leaves the weapons that are stuck at lv 125/skill lv 20.
I'll leave out the consideration for +20% stats from preferred weapons types and simplify this down to just skill comparisons.
Since everything in your grid should be raising your assault one way or another, we look at the other skill. Let's look at what the other skills offer at lv 20. Getting Rush and Barrage out of the way first as those are the least clear and are still being tested.

Rush (S) - as mentioned earlier, raises your double attack by 1% (as listed on the skills effect page itself) or up to 2% (from recent comments)
Rush (M) - the page lists 3%. I've seen comments pegging it closer to ~5%
Rush (L) - unlisted on the page unfortunately. The (not yet confirmed) logical guess would be to add a couple more percentage points to Medium's effect.
While it's still hazy, things generally point to the small sized effect as kind of sucking.

Barrage (S) - raise triple attack by... 1% according to the page.
Barrage (M) - the page says 2%
Barrage (L) - unlisted
I see more people testing Rush than Barrage :/
The % increase to the rates themselves are probably a bit behind those of Rush's, but the payoff is of course, triple attack vs double attack.

Defender (S) - raise HP by 10%
Defender (M) - raise HP by 13%
Defender (L) - raise HP by 16%
Now if you notice, starting from Defender on, the small effect isn't absurdly proportionally small in relation to the medium or large. You'll see that when comparing small against small, Rush (S) looks really bad.

Stinger (S) - currently thought to be 10% chance of an activation
Stinger (M) - currently thought to be 13% chance of an activation
Stinger (L) - currently thought to be 16% chance of an activation
Stinger is basically the critical effect; if you have elemental advantage, you roll the dice. If you roll a success, you get bonus damage. The interesting thing about Stinger is that each individual Stinger skill gets its own roll. Each success/activation you get, you add 20% to special atk*.
Example: You have 3 weapons with Stinger (S) at lv 20 and you have advantage. Each time you attack/use a direct damage skill/burst, roll the dice 3 times. Each die that succeeds at 10% each adds 20% to special. So 1 success = +20% to special. 2 successes = +40% to special. 3 successes = +60% to special.
What happens if you use a kamihime's critical attack buff while having stinger in the grid? I don't know :/
*special is another multiplier, like assault/character_atk or elemental_atk. Current examples of bonuses to special_atk are berserk and the stun/rage punishers.

Exceed (S) - +30% burst damage (this is the burst damage buff that has a cap of +500%), and +20% burst damage attenuation value/soft damage cap
Exceed (M) - I'm assuming +45% burst damage. The lv 20 is actually unlisted, but it's +26% at lv 1. The scaling looks like +1% per lvl. +30% to burst damage attenuation value
Exceed (L) - the +burst damage is completely unlisted. +40% to burst damage attenuation value
The +burst damage isn't all that important unless you have a lot of it. The increase to the soft damage cap of your burst attacks is the really important aspect. If you didn't already know, every attack has an attentuation value/soft damage cap. If/when you go over this, all additional damage past this cap is reduced to one tenth of what it originally was. An individual kamihime's burst attack normally has a soft damage cap of 1 million. If you would have dealt 2 million damage, it gets reduced to 1 million + (1 million / 10) = 1.1 million. Raising the cap by 20% (that is, to 1.2 million), changes that to 1.2 million + (800k / 10) = 1.28 million.
Exceed's ability to raise the soft damage cap is itself limited to +100%
Now since there are some kamihime with the ability to raise their own burst attenuation value (like awakened Uriel) or an ally's (like water Freya), I don't know how those work with Exceed. DMM players care to chime in?

Ascension (S) - raise the upper limit of healing by 24%/raise healing amount by 3%. Unless your max HP is low, the important thing is raising the upper limit of healing.
Ascension (M) - raise the upper limit by 27%/raise amount by 4%
Ascension (L) - raise the upper limit by 30%/raise amount by 5%
Remember the +healing buff in union events? Or how awakened Sol's Caldo Luce has a side effect of buffing heals for a few turns? It's that in weapon skill form. Buffs to the upper limit of healing are themselves capped to +200%. I expect that to only potentially be an issue during union events.

Vigorous (S) - uhh... let's say it peaks at +8.5% to special atk
Vigorous (M) - peaks at +12% to special atk
Vigorous (L) - peaks at 15.5% to special atk
So this adds to special atk depending on the percentage of HP you have left. The more, the better (like an inverse Pride, but adds to special instead of assault). However, while Pride's formula is linear, Vigorous.... isn't. It degrades fast. If you're going to run Vigorous, you better be good at staying as healthy as you can for your important attacks.

Elaborate - +30% ability damage; apparently this aspect remains the same regardless of small/medium/large
It also raises the attenuation value for abilities; +2%/+3.5%/+5%. I'm not sure if that's just for lv 1 and then it goes up from there, or that's for all skill levels.
If you don't know how +abilty damage works; it's better if your abilities add up to a larger number of hits. Abilities that do few hits (at worst, they're single hitters), don't benefit a lot. The reason is that direct damage abilities are structured as (# of hits) * (damage_multiplier). +ability damage just directly adds to that damage_multiplier.

call me stupid... but what is the conclusion here? for the majority folks out here, what are the popular choices / order of priority?

The most common choices are Assault and Exceed, since we are driving straight up into a "Full Burst Meta" thanks to Shingen and Hime that make her more and more possible for fast usage (later down the line with the MP Skills she is even more usable and the Accessory Set Bonus from Tiara to increase the chance of double and triple attacks by a lot). Exceed can be achieved by the second weapon of the UE as every one of those will have Exceed after FLB. Only Wind has Exceed after FLB on both their UE weapons. This means that 3 of those are 90% increased Burst cap damage (1.9m then is the burst cap). Obviously it is also possible to achieve from certain Hime-Weapons or Draconic Eye weapons, but this is not the majority friendly version. Since they have either Pride or Assault on their UE weapons, you gain a lot of power just from them. Goal is to dish out high amounts of damage in the shortest amount of turns, so you basically build a team that can FB in like 4 or 5 turns already, while also doing high amounts of damage to gain control over the Normal-Rage-Stun-Phases to minimize the incoming damage.

Additionally Defender does not hurt and makes your team more usable in other situations due to having a larger HP pool. The rest is basically as it comes with taking in Assault weapons. Some may wanna take Vigorous for having addtional power during Burst hours, others may favor Ascension for the more balanced route with a Healer in their party. At that point you are free to take what you want, their is no real major difference and depends on what you like.

Originally Posted by QXZ

call me stupid... but what is the conclusion here? for the majority folks out here, what are the popular choices / order of priority?

OP likely left it to our interpretation, but here's my take.

First, I bring you to this statement here.

Originally Posted by unregistered

Let's say you're at the point where you have 10 dual skill SSRs in your grid as you've been playing this game for quite a while.

I risk coming out as an elitist prick but I'd like to put this out here: a majority of the players will not have reached this state, and those that do likely know what priorities they would want on their weapon second skill. If you haven't reached this state, you take whatever you can get.

That said, it's a question nonetheless so answer it I shall. I assume skill 1 is assault for the convenience of it, since pretty much everyone goes for assault first thing.

Defender is by far the safest pick for a second skill on your weapon if your intention is to nickel and dime something out of a dual skill weapon. Extra HP never hurts if it doesn't sacrifice your assault value.

Ascension basically adds to the meme in this forum that is light immortality, A-Sol + ascension weapons. In fact, the other meme about this weapon class is basically only light event weapons out of all the other event weapons carry this trait. So in the context of light, how good is it? Very, until the light DPS era comes in, and when you actually get those girls. You have about 3 months to play around with 3-4k heals in the mean time. Also obviously, you won't get any use out of this weapon skill if you don't have heals in the first place.

Vigor is tricky. On one hand it buffs the special atk frame, which is really OP, but on the other exponential decrease of the effect can really kill the skill altogether. The one area I can see vigor weapons being really good in is at burst hour, and I don't think I need to explain why. We'll have 12 team setups coming our way soon, so dedicating a build to burst hour for each element becomes much more feasible anyway.

Elaborate... I'll call it blargh. Same reason why ability damage is ranked low on accessory skills.

Exceed is... both tasty looking and eh at the same time. A passive boost to burst damage helps for quick burst builds such as in wind, while the buff to burst damage cap really helps stun punishers and certain himes that don't run a burst cap increase along with burst damage buff (looking at you Asherah), but the second category doesn't happen often anyway. I'd imagine this skill is an end gamer's dream though, because anywhere below end game players aren't likely to get anything much worth out of this skill without burst optimisation, either chaingun or rocket launcher style.

Stinger is also special atk, but the trick lies in the RNG. I personally don't support RNG style play, but the boost in atk when it does proc looks healthy, so by all means, gamble if you must.

The rush and barrage skills... given the luxury of choice I would avoid because a 1-5% chance boost per turn sounds negligible compared to the benefits you're guaranteed (kinda) to get with other skills. Another RNG-centric pick.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

1-5% chance boost per turn sounds negligible

> 1~5% boost on top of a hime's existing 8%/3% or 10%/5% if AW'd.
> The increase isn't as negligible as you make it sound especially when you're only gonna be using these with assault anyway