Thread: New DMM Feature: Seraph Union Events! (Goodbye Demon)

Her normal Mode Gauge is approx. 12m damage long. Couldnt properly test how much is needed to get her into stun though, but it aint fast either.

That actually makes stun punishers worse (back to being the trash they normally are outside of UE); they're terrible because of how relatively late into a fight does stun mode usually show up. A short mode gauge means that the opportunity for a stun punisher to be remotely relevant comes up earlier and more often.
If normal mode lasts 10-12 million HP, then raging mode itself won't show up until the 30's (exactly lv 30 if it's a 10 million normal mode bar), without using something like Acala's normal gauge pusher against wind. Assuming rage itselfs lasts for as long as normal, that's another 30+ levels on top of that before stun shows up for the first time, without using any % rage gauge shavers (although those would now be worth potentially millions of HP now if you want to get out of rage asap). And our experience has almost always been that rage lasts noticably longer than normal mode.

Thing is, there's not a lot of depth to Nutaku unions. For ult, a high of ~104-108 gets you to rank in the 90's, ~115-118 gets you to rank in the 80's. For unions in that range, you'll probably only see stun mode show up once, pretty late into the fight, and only if your union's pushing. Otherwise, on non-push days, you probably won't see stun mode.

For expert... how long does the normal mode last? Cause the wiki lists 6 million for raging, but doesn't say for normal. Conversely, I see lv 30 as the minimum for ult to see rage, implying a 10 million HP normal mode, but no numbers for raging.
Anyway, 6 million HP for raging means that a single rage bar lasts 40 levels on its own (as expert's HP is 500k base + 150k per level). So the duration before each instance of stun mode is (however many levels worth of HP normal mode is) + ~40 levels worth of HP for raging. Stun mode would just show up far less frequently compared to the seven sins' "all the damn time".

For rage punishing stuff? *shrug* For them, the times where they're applicable get smushed together from small frequent slices into big chunks like in most non-UE content. And they're still relevant outside of UE, so they're not worried.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

That actually makes stun punishers worse (back to being the trash they normally are outside of UE); they're terrible because of how relatively late into a fight does stun mode usually show up. A short mode gauge means that the opportunity for a stun punisher to be remotely relevant comes up earlier and more often.
If normal mode lasts 10-12 million HP, then raging mode itself won't show up until the 30's (exactly lv 30 if it's a 10 million normal mode bar), without using something like Acala's normal gauge pusher against wind. Assuming rage itselfs lasts for as long as normal, that's another 30+ levels on top of that before stun shows up for the first time, without using any % rage gauge shavers (although those would now be worth potentially millions of HP now if you want to get out of rage asap). And our experience has almost always been that rage lasts noticably longer than normal mode.

Thing is, there's not a lot of depth to Nutaku unions. For ult, a high of ~104-108 gets you to rank in the 90's, ~115-118 gets you to rank in the 80's. For unions in that range, you'll probably only see stun mode show up once, pretty late into the fight, and only if your union's pushing. Otherwise, on non-push days, you probably won't see stun mode.

For expert... how long does the normal mode last? Cause the wiki lists 6 million for raging, but doesn't say for normal. Conversely, I see lv 30 as the minimum for ult to see rage, implying a 10 million HP normal mode, but no numbers for raging.
Anyway, 6 million HP for raging means that a single rage bar lasts 40 levels on its own (as expert's HP is 500k base + 150k per level). So the duration before each instance of stun mode is (however many levels worth of HP normal mode is) + ~40 levels worth of HP for raging. Stun mode would just show up far less frequently compared to the seven sins' "all the damn time".

For rage punishing stuff? *shrug* For them, the times where they're applicable get smushed together from small frequent slices into big chunks like in most non-UE content. And they're still relevant outside of UE, so they're not worried.

I apologize since I'm still a bit of a newb, but what exactly is a stun punisher type of team? Are there specific skills that you would normally use to take advantage of the easy push to stun from normal union events?


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I apologize since I'm still a bit of a newb, but what exactly is a stun punisher type of team? Are there specific skills that you would normally use to take advantage of the easy push to stun from normal union events?

"Stun punishers" are Hime that have a skill that makes them do stupid amounts of damage when an enemy is under Stun status. Examples of this are Soul Siegfried, SSR Tyr and SR Oceanus.

The problem with Stun punishers are:
1. In most content, by the time you reach Stun, the fight is already over. So what's the point?
2. Even if the fight isn't over yet, this is the phase in the fight where the boss usually is of no threat to you. Why do you want to end this phase early? And not ending it early risks missing out on the huge damage bonus that Stun punishers get.

For this reason, Awakened Tyr is getting reworked into being able to "punish" at any time and not just at Stun. Oceanus, Siegfried and others won't be reworked and will forever be garbage.

Siegfried herself wont get a rework, but her Relics will.

Her Assault Relic will let her Raging Nuke proc twice.
Her Defender Hammer gives her Rage Mode-Buff an additional damage buff (30% Normal Atk, 20% Burst) for 2 turns. RIght now I dont know if it counts for all Modes or if it is specifically for Raging. Nevertheless, it helps Dark building a Hammer Grid for example.

People also use Sieg-Based Teams to OTK (One turn kill) Cata Ultimates (mainly Nuke Heavy Teams to put it into Raging and then into Stun). Biggest usage is during the 1-Turn-Dummy Event where Water has proven to be the Element of doing the highest amount of damage possible thanks to Stun-Punisher and heavy buff stacker.
They are niche, yes, but after a certain point of power they become a viable option - and are far from garbage.

Sin ultimates or Virtue ultimates? Because I already implied that the Sins are basically the one sort of content in which you can expect stun mode to come up early enough in a fight for a stun punisher to be impactful to your ability to win.

With Ultimates I meant the Catastrophe Ultimates. UE Events are plagued by Para, so in theory it doesnt even matter what you bring.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

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They are niche, yes, but after a certain point of power they become a viable option - and are far from garbage.

I don't think that something that is literally only useful in a punching dummy event can be considered anything other than garbage...

Originally Posted by Slashley

I don't think that something that is literally only useful in a punching dummy event can be considered anything other than garbage...

Light Nike
On a more serious note, something being niche does not mean it's garbage. That mentality may prove fatal in some competitive content. And damn Siegfried with ATK weapon does seem really good for dealing damage in short period of time (double 4~5 nuke at raging, stun burst with 40% echo burst). Is it better than what Herc/Shingen/whatever have to offer ? In most cases not, but in some it may be, and Siegfried is free.

Funny enough, because I define 'stun punisher' as the skill as opposed to the [i]character/i] possessing the skill, 'beating raging enemies extra hard' doesn't do anything for my evaluation of 'stun punishers' specifically. What that means for Siegfried is that her 'weight/gameplay value' from a design perspective isn't mostly tied up into her anti-stun buff, unlike Ea (that is what screws characters like her over; offering little outside of a very flawed mechanic). Buffing her anti-raging stuff can be nice. They can elevate Siegfried depending on what you're looking for. Doesn't change that 'stun punisher' as a class of skills/specific mechanic is usually utterly fucked by the enemy design xP